A serious possibly fatal design flaw

Jeremy · April 2014

First I'm not a hater. I actually love this game. The breadth of its exploration alone is unique to MMORPGs of today and that alone gives it a place on the market that could sustain it.

The lore is both written and acted with great talent. I love questing on this game. The combat (though I feel the targeting functions could be improved) is a lot of fun. Crafting is straight forward and effective. Lack of inventory was an issue. But I just made priorities and can deal with it. Limited to only five abilities? No big deal for me. I feel it adds variety to separate masteries among players.

BUT (and I bold this for a reason) - this game's stubborn decision not to include a standard auction house is starting to seriously impede my enjoyment of this game.

I am the type of player who likes to take their time and explore and experience everything. Exactly the type of player this games seems to aim for. However, due to the lack of an auction house I am finding it increasingly difficult to obtain the materials I need to progress my character to my standards. I have joined many different guild stores and find them lacking, to put it diplomatically. Not to mention I find the whole idea of joining a guild simply to buy/sell stuff off-putting.

Already I am starting to feel as if I should hoard my rare materials since I have no reliable way to replenish them. In short - it's significantly impeding my character to the point its hurting my enjoyment of the game. And I refuse to start spamming advertisements or boring myself to tears reading constantly the zone chats in hopes someone is willing to sell me what I am looking for at a reasonable price.

So in the meantime, I am considering taking a break from this game in the hopes the developers will reconsider this and come back when a reliable economic system is put in place so players like me can better enjoy advancing their characters through what is without doubt a beautiful and interesting world.

Rpalmer2 · April 2014

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Jeremy · April 2014

Rpalmer2 wrote: »

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I'm not quitting the game Rplamer. I like it too much for that.

Just considering taking a break for a bit to give them time to put in an auction house. That way I could level up my character and crafts more effectively and have more fun. Because I would enjoy leveling up a lot more with an auction house in place because I wouldn't feel rushed to horde all my materials until 50.

Tiberius_ · April 2014

Rpalmer2 wrote: »

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

The OP was respectful and his post well-thought out. Why are you being a jerk, Rpalmer?

As to the topic, I can understand why they decided to not have an auction house. Auction houses have ruined some games (like Diablo 3) and I can understand ZOS taking a wait-and-see approach to determine whether to have an AH.

Cheatingdeath23 · April 2014

I've noticed this for honing stones and dwarven oil for blacksmithing. I extract some, but I tried to conserve them and failed miserably. First I tried 60%, thinking that was better than half chance-- twice I failed. So then I went to 80%, still failed. Now I'm stuck only trusting 100%, which takes up 5 honing stones, and I haven't once tried Dwarven Oil because I would need many to get close to 100%.

If I could buy them in game, I would spend a lot for them, as I love crafting my own gear. But instead I have to run around mining iron and extracting in hopes of getting them.

jmido8 · April 2014

Tiberius_ wrote: »

Rpalmer2 wrote: »

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

The OP was respectful and his post well-thought out. Why are you being a jerk, Rpalmer?

As to the topic, I can understand why they decided to not have an auction house. Auction houses have ruined some games (like Diablo 3) and I can understand ZOS taking a wait-and-see approach to determine whether to have an AH.

To be fair, AH only ruined Diablo 3 because they let you use real life money to buy items on the AH. I played D3 when it first came out and the AH was just fine, actually, it was really fun playing around with it. It wasn't until the real life money auction house was released that it went to the crappers.

clocksstoppe · April 2014

obviously they have considered it alot and they agreed it is better without an auction house.

i know from personal experience that auction houses are horrible and minimize the social interaction in an mmo. good riddance that there is none in ESO

Jeremy · April 2014

clocksstoppe wrote: »

obviously they have considered it alot and they agreed it is better without an auction house.

i know from personal experience that auction houses are horrible and minimize the social interaction in an mmo. good riddance that there is none in ESO

I just can't relate to this at all, because my experiences have been the exact opposite.

Every game I have ever played that has tried operate from a barter economy through trade channels and the like have been misery defined. And I'll never understand why you and others think trade spam provide such a valuable social service.

icengr_ESO · April 2014

I played GW2 at launch and can say that a server wide auction house is a bad idea. I do not want to see an auction house. that said I don't feel the guild stores make for a good auction house replacement.

Jeremy · April 2014

icengr_ESO wrote: »

I played GW2 at launch and can say that a server wide auction house is a bad idea. I do not want to see an auction house. that said I don't feel the guild stores make for a good auction house replacement.

I don't understand the comparison. The auction hose on Guild Wars 2 was amazing back when I played it. My stuff would sell almost instantly and I had no trouble finding anything I was looking for up for sale. It was easily one of the most healthy game economies I've ever seen.

So unless it's changed rather dramatically since I played the game (which I admit was years ago) I don't see why Guild Wars 2 would lead you to that conclusion.

If that auction house has gone sour recently it more than likely has to do with the influence of real money traders rather the fact it serves a broader customer base.

Sneakyfool · April 2014

First and formost, can I just say. If you are waiting for them to implement a auction house, then you might as well quit the game now as it's just not going to happen.

Zenimax was very firm on the whole server wide auction house and why they don't want it, and I agree with them completely.

However this doesn't hinder you in anyway, The game is very new, less than 2 weeks old and people are complaining already they can't find what they want. Give it a couple of months for the markets to stabalize at the very least.

I can't speak for everyone, but from experiance from previous MMO's at launch, people are reluctent to sale the items that are needed and people horde, just in case they need it once at max level.

Over time this won't be much of a issue, so just chill out, relax and stop with the I NEED EVERYTHING NOW attitude.

After a while if nothing changes then fine come hear and air your concerns, but if you think people are going to pander to your needs so soon after release you are sadly mistaken.

Jeremy · April 2014

Sneakyfool wrote: »

First and formost, can I just say. If you are waiting for them to implement a auction house, then you might as well quit the game now as it's just not going to happen.

Zenimax was very firm on the whole server wide auction house and why they don't want it, and I agree with them completely.

However this doesn't hinder you in anyway, The game is very new, less than 2 weeks old and people are complaining already they can't find what they want. Give it a couple of months for the markets to stabalize at the very least.

I can't speak for everyone, but from experiance from previous MMO's at launch, people are reluctent to sale the items that are needed and people horde, just in case they need it once at max level.

Over time this won't be much of a issue, so just chill out, relax and stop with the I NEED EVERYTHING NOW attitude.

After a while if nothing changes then fine come hear and air your concerns, but if you think people are going to pander to your needs so soon after release you are sadly mistaken.

I find your tone unwarranted and many of your accusations unfounded. The only one who needs to chill out and relax is yourself. So I suggest taking your own advice

And I hope you are wrong about Zenimax being adamant about this. But you may be right and why I am worried about this to begin with. It's the whole reason I made a thread to voice my concerns over it.

I'm glad you are satisfied with the current system. But many of us aren't. And just because we would like to see an auction house doesn't mean we are hyperactive people who want everything now and expect people to pander to us. I am worried for the game, because I would like to see it succeed. And I believe that success depends on an accessible and effective economy, which this game currently does not have.

circilion · April 2014

Jeremy wrote: »

Rpalmer2 wrote: »

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I'm not quitting the game Rplamer. I like it too much for that.

Just considering taking a break for a bit to give them time to put in an auction house. That way I could level up my character and crafts more effectively and have more fun. Because I would enjoy leveling up a lot more with an auction house in place because I wouldn't feel rushed to horde all my materials until 50.

I think that its a safe bet, seeing as the whole design of the guild system is built around it, that an AH will not be included any time soon. You may have to wait a while.

Jeremy · April 2014

circilion wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Rpalmer2 wrote: »

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I'm not quitting the game Rplamer. I like it too much for that.

Just considering taking a break for a bit to give them time to put in an auction house. That way I could level up my character and crafts more effectively and have more fun. Because I would enjoy leveling up a lot more with an auction house in place because I wouldn't feel rushed to horde all my materials until 50.

I think that its a safe bet, seeing as the whole design of the guild system is built around it, that an AH will not be included any time soon. You may have to wait a while.

Maybe, though other MMORPGs I have seen who attempted something similar corrected their error pretty quickly.

Final Fantasy 14 for example tried a barter system based on retainers rather an auction house in the beginning. Didn't take them long to learn that wasn't going to work.

Drachenfier · April 2014

clocksstoppe wrote: »

i know from personal experience that auction houses are horrible and minimize the social interaction in an mmo. good riddance that there is none in ESO

What?? Please....I'd love to hear how auction houses have done this...do you consider WTB/WTS chat spam "social interaction"?

DankShank · April 2014

Zone spammers are idiots. Eventually market hubs will emerge, people will all stand by the bank and use say, not zone.

Damnii · April 2014

I would like an AH, however, I worry about the implications of a faction wide AH on a mega server. The economy could be potentially very weak, with supply potentially outstripping demand. It would also mean potentially millions of the same item being sold at once, making the chances that your item sells very remote, which would further compound the issues some people are having with selling their merchandise at the moment.
This then lead me to the thought of groups of server shards which share an AH, but then how do you decide which shards go where? If you go down that route, they may as well do completeley seperate servers, such as the WoW ones, and be done with it, seperating them into language, and rp/non-rp but that goes against the very core of what this game set out to achieve.

Jeremy · April 2014

Damnii wrote: »

I would like an AH, however, I worry about the implications of a faction wide AH on a mega server. The economy could be potentially very weak, with supply potentially outstripping demand. It would also mean potentially millions of the same item being sold at once, making the chances that your item sells very remote, which would further compound the issues some people are having with selling their merchandise at the moment.
This then lead me to the thought of groups of server shards which share an AH, but then how do you decide which shards go where? If you go down that route, they may as well do completeley seperate servers, such as the WoW ones, and be done with it, seperating them into language, and rp/non-rp but that goes against the very core of what this game set out to achieve.

Just keep in mind that both supply and demand would likely sky rocket.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I've had very good experiences with large auction houses on games.

On Guild Wars 2 for example their auction house encompassed everyone, and my merchandise sold almost instantly. Sometimes it would sell even before I exited the menu. And I could always find the items I was looking for at a reasonable price.

It was really the only thing I liked about that game. And I don't see why a similar outcome wouldn't be possible here. Especially considering the value even non remarkable items have due to deconstruction.

In any case, I think it would be much better than what we have now - which is basically the "trade guild" lottery and endless annoying spam.

anton1nh · April 2014

Tiberius_ wrote: »

As to the topic, I can understand why they decided to not have an auction house. Auction houses have ruined some games (like Diablo 3) and I can understand ZOS taking a wait-and-see approach to determine whether to have an AH.

what ruined D3 was not the AH it was the real money AH. If i put in 2 hour of overtime at work i make enough money to completely gear a character up whit epic gear. I am happy whit a character that cant be better, my boss is impressed whit my work ethic, everybody wins but blizzard. nobody plays the game because that's not the way to progress in it!
i like to quote mark rosewater (Head Designer:magic the gathering) here "as a game designer you can make your players do what ever you want them to do. because they will do what it takes to progress whether that's fun or not. if your game is not fun they will do it but they wont play your game again"
in D3 blizz made spending real money the most effective way to progress. after doing so you had no reason to play because you cant progress further. effectively blizz made not playing D3 the most effective thing to do.

conclusion there is nothing wrong whit an action house as long as there is only in-game currency to spend there.

also note that in D3 there is no crafting (spending alternative resources to roll on a random item is not crafting). real crafters need a market place to buy and sell on. D3 was not the right game for an AH but ESO is.

radiostar · April 2014

Using guilds as a buyer AH and a seller AH might work. I don't know if there is a mechanic ingame for that atm though.

ijRoberts · April 2014

My only experience with an auction house was in EQII, and that seemed to work pretty well. You list your stuff, it either sells or doesn't. You can keep up with market prices. Anything you wanted to buy was usually there, including crafting mats. Something like that seems like it would work pretty well in ESO.

anton1nh · April 2014

radiostar wrote: »

Using guilds as a buyer AH and a seller AH might work. I don't know if there is a mechanic ingame for that atm though.

I agree commissioning work and allowing crafters to turn in the commissioned item in exchange for gold could work.

raw materials do better when they can be turned in at a central point in exchange for gold. be taken out at the same place for a price. so there is a set buyer and seller price based on supply and demand.

Niminion · April 2014

Yes the majority of guild stores suck because they are filled with quest gear and level 12 white iron armor and random overpriced materials.

Wait till dominant guilds in Cyrodiil attract top crafters to list items in their Guild Stores at the fort they control, accessible to everyone! Visit other campaigns to find and join these established guilds or just to go on a shopping trip.

Give it time to mature it's a very new system, and one that seems at first glance to not be able to be abused by bots. Rich and powerful guilds will emerge creating even more action within each faction going on in Cyrodiil!