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Example of power creep spiraling out of control

MikaHR
MikaHR
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Base set game 5 armor piece bonus:

Whitestrake's Retribution

LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type Craftable

Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 2975 Spell Resistance
(4 items) Adds 129 Health Recovery
(5 items) When you take damage while you are under 30% Health, you gain a damage shield that absorbs 10320 damage for 8 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.


Power creep 2 set bonus

Iceheart

LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type Monster Set

Set bonus
(1 item) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(2 items) When you deal Critical Damage, you have a 20% chance to gain a damage shield that absorbs 8600 damage for 6 seconds. While the damage shield holds, you deal 770 Frost Damage to all enemies within 5 meters of you every 1 second. This effect can occur once every 6 second


Not only is 2 piece set several time BETTER it also deals damage as a bonus over 5 piece armor set. And, to cheese it out...you can stack both.

ZOS needs to apply HUGE nerfs to ALL proc sets because it is spiraling OUT of control. Instead, they inted to BUFF all that by another 20% when reacihng CP300 in next update. That MUST NOT happen.
Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 9:50AM
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    Irrelevant. Unless you want a broken game, just see how many people complain that game is "extremely easy"....and all of them are using broken gear like "iceheart" and the rest (its just an example)

    Power creep has already spiraled out of control.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 9:51AM
  • Turelus
    Turelus
    Community Ambassador
    In your example, Ones a monster set that takes more effort to get then the other set which is craftable, so the monster set ought to be better.
    Agreed. There has been a level of power creep, but items which are locked behind content generally have better stats than ones which are easy to access.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    :: Unofficial Forums FAQ :: MissBizz ESO Guides :: AlcastHQ Guides :: Tamriel Foundry Forums :: UESP ESO Page :: ESO Sets :: Woeler Tank Guides :: ESO Community Discord ::
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  • zaria
    zaria
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    Irrelevant. Unless you want a broken game, just see how many people complain that game is "extremely easy"....and all of them are using broken gear like "iceheart" and the rest (its just an example)

    Power creep has already spiraled out of control.
    Add that the Whitestrake's set give shield then health is low making it more practical.
    make 4 set bonus max magic :)

    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • MikaHR
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    How is it "more practical" when iceheart can fire ANY time so mitigating exponentionally more damage along with dealing damage...for a 2 set bonus compare to a full 5 set bonus from armor.
    jainiadral wrote: »
    Ugh. Enough with the nerfs already :#

    Game is in really bad shape as power creep has spiraled out of control and that tends to hurt games the most in the LONG term as 99,9999% of content becomes irrelevant because of power creep.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 10:20AM
  • Turelus
    Turelus
    Community Ambassador
    MikaHR wrote: »
    Game is in really bad shape as power creep has spiraled out of control and that tends to hurt games the most in the LONG term as 99,9999% of content becomes irrelevant because of power creep.
    If you want to look at something which has been the power creep then don't look at sets, they've actually got a pretty set and stable place now.

    CP and general game balance are where the power creep has happened, as well as ZOS not doing any iterations on mob balance since One Tamriel.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    :: Unofficial Forums FAQ :: MissBizz ESO Guides :: AlcastHQ Guides :: Tamriel Foundry Forums :: UESP ESO Page :: ESO Sets :: Woeler Tank Guides :: ESO Community Discord ::
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    No not really, GEAR is the primary source of power creep with CP just adding to the fire.

    BOTH should be nerfed drasticall, preferably CP removed as source of combat stats and PROC SETS primarily nerfed by 50-70% and brought into line with base game sets.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 10:26AM
  • Turelus
    Turelus
    Community Ambassador
    MikaHR wrote: »
    No not really, GEAR is the primary source of power creep with CP just adding to the fire.

    BOTH should be nerfed drasticall, preferably CP removed as source of combat stats and PROC SETS primarily nerfed by 50-70% and brought into line with base game sets.
    Gear used to be, then they standardised it for the most part. Sure some sets come out which work better than others in updates but the general values remain the same.

    The big changes were things like light attack buffs, Psijic skills etc. They've done much more to increase player damage than the new sets have.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    :: Unofficial Forums FAQ :: MissBizz ESO Guides :: AlcastHQ Guides :: Tamriel Foundry Forums :: UESP ESO Page :: ESO Sets :: Woeler Tank Guides :: ESO Community Discord ::
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • jainiadral
    jainiadral
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    How is it "more practical" when iceheart can fire ANY time so mitigating exponentionally more damage along with dealing damage...for a 2 set bonus compare to a full 5 set bonus from armor.
    jainiadral wrote: »
    Ugh. Enough with the nerfs already :#

    Game is in really bad shape as power creep has spiraled out of control and that tends to hurt games the most in the LONG term as 99,9999% of content becomes irrelevant because of power creep.

    You've got big swaths of the game's population complaining they can't do new content anymore in another thread. You've got "churn" happening with newer players in the base game when overland difficulty has gotten harder with prior nerfs. Power creep isn't a problem for a lot of the population.

    What is a problem is ZOS using a single balance pass for vastly different content. I'd argue that having two different practices for PvP and PvE isn't enough. You need to split overland from group content at the very least.
    Quantic Foundry Gamer Motivation Profile: Calm, Spontaneous, Relaxed, Independent, Deeply Immersed, and Creative * Too pragmatic for her own good
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    They cant do new content BECAUSE they are not riding power creep train YET.

    It works both way, new players are significantly under the curve while old players are significantly over the curve, and you have 1st group complaining its too hard while 2nd complains its too easy.

    The easiest way of dealing with that is to KURB higher end of power curve and bring it down to the rest of the game.
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Gear used to be, then they standardised it for the most part. Sure some sets come out which work better than others in updates but the general values remain the same.

    The big changes were things like light attack buffs, Psijic skills etc. They've done much more to increase player damage than the new sets have.

    And you write that in a thread giving one minor example of complete OPPOSITE.

    "psijic skills" "light attacks buffs" would be non issue IF gear/CP is dealt with.THEN you can go and do tweaks on other things, you dont go and spend a lot of time trying to "fix" minor things.

    You should go and check Pareto principle and dealing with gear/CP as primary source of out of control power creep would fix 80% of power creep issues.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 10:40AM
  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
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    well IMO you cannot compare those 2 sets like that.

    Whitestakes procs to 100% no matter what, when your helth gets low enough.

    While Iceheart needs a Crit, which is % based luck, and even then it has a 20% procchance.


    One set is atm widely use in PVE, which is iceheart, since its like a 8,6k higher healthpool.
    Yes its very very strong atm in PVE, however DMG of it is neglectable, normally measeling out on 200 DPS somewhere.

    Withered hand has another probelm...its just flat out a bad set.
    Noone really needs health reg. -> replace with max resources would be better
    Spellresistance is nice, but could also use physical resistance on the same boni.

    Like this:
    Set bonus
    (2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
    (3 items) Adds 2975 Spell and Physical Resistance
    (4 items) Adds 1096 Magicka and Stamina
    (5 items) When you take damage while you are under 30% Health, you gain a damage shield that absorbs 10320 damage for 8 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

    and you'd see mor eppl running it than now.
    PC EU
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    Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer /Griphon Heart / Master Angler / PVP Noob^^

    Exceed Gaming
  • Jeremy
    Jeremy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    Base set game 5 armor piece bonus:

    Whitestrake's Retribution

    LEVEL 50 - CP 160
    Type Craftable

    Set bonus
    (2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
    (3 items) Adds 2975 Spell Resistance
    (4 items) Adds 129 Health Recovery
    (5 items) When you take damage while you are under 30% Health, you gain a damage shield that absorbs 10320 damage for 8 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.


    Power creep 2 set bonus

    Iceheart

    LEVEL 50 - CP 160
    Type Monster Set

    Set bonus
    (1 item) Adds 833 Spell Critical
    (2 items) When you deal Critical Damage, you have a 20% chance to gain a damage shield that absorbs 8600 damage for 6 seconds. While the damage shield holds, you deal 770 Frost Damage to all enemies within 5 meters of you every 1 second. This effect can occur once every 6 second


    Not only is 2 piece set several time BETTER it also deals damage as a bonus over 5 piece armor set. And, to cheese it out...you can stack both.

    ZOS needs to apply HUGE nerfs to ALL proc sets because it is spiraling OUT of control. Instead, they inted to BUFF all that by another 20% when reacihng CP300 in next update. That MUST NOT happen.

    I'm not sure if your post is sarcastic or not. But just in case you are being serious:

    Proc sets aren't the issue. The issue is monsters don't have enough health and have stupid non-existent AI. They are scaled for low level characters just starting out. With or without proc sets - the landscape on ESO poses very little threat to any veteran player.
    Edited by Jeremy on February 12, 2019 10:45AM
  • jainiadral
    jainiadral
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    They cant do new content BECAUSE they are not riding power creep train YET.

    It works both way, new players are significantly under the curve while old players are significantly over the curve, and you have 1st group complaining its too hard while 2nd complains its too easy.

    The easiest way of dealing with that is to KURB higher end of power curve and bring it down to the rest of the game.

    I'm pretty sure the middle tier players in the other power creep thread have ridden "the power creep train," to use your terminology. The thread is about trials and DLC dungeons.

    It's telling that both groups of non-top rated players are having similar issues. And the issue seems to be the exact opposite of creep. Nerfing hits casual players hard.
    Edited by jainiadral on February 12, 2019 10:42AM
    Quantic Foundry Gamer Motivation Profile: Calm, Spontaneous, Relaxed, Independent, Deeply Immersed, and Creative * Too pragmatic for her own good
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    How did they get the gear if they cant do the content?
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    Jeremy wrote: »
    I'm not sure if your post is sarcastic or not. But just in case you are being serious:

    Proc sets aren't the issue. The issue is monsters don't have enough health and stupid AI. They are scaled for low level characters just starting out. With or without proc sets - the landscape on ESO poses very little threat to any veteran player.

    Im not sure if your post is sarcastic or not...but try to put on white gear and remove your CP and lest see if its that easy.

    WHEN you deal with GEAR (proc sets as main culprit as base game sets are quite balanced like armor set i posted) THEN you can go and fine tune content AFTER youve dealt with insane power creep.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 10:48AM
  • Jeremy
    Jeremy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    They cant do new content BECAUSE they are not riding power creep train YET.

    It works both way, new players are significantly under the curve while old players are significantly over the curve, and you have 1st group complaining its too hard while 2nd complains its too easy.

    The easiest way of dealing with that is to KURB higher end of power curve and bring it down to the rest of the game.

    Or just add veteran zones designed for higher level characters.

    Nerfing everything isn't the answer. Character progression and growing more powerful is at the core of RPG gameplay. It's what keeps the game interesting. You just need to design more challenging content to accommodate it.
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    "Or just add veteran zones designed for higher level characters."

    they tried that at launch.

    It failed miserably and they had to rework the WHOLE game otherwise it would be shut down.

    "Character progression and growing more powerful is at the core of RPG gameplay."

    No its not.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 10:50AM
  • Jeremy
    Jeremy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    "Or just add veteran zones designed for higher level characters."

    they tried that at launch.

    It failed miserably and they had to rework the WHOLE game otherwise it would be shut down.

    My understanding is it wasn't the veteran zones that failed miserably. It was the length of the grind associated with it. IN any case: just make them optional and that would solve all problems.

    I believe most high level players would welcome a higher level zone for them to quest in. I know I certainly would. It would be nice to actually have fun again while questing on this game instead of instantly obliterating everything that crosses my path.
    Edited by Jeremy on February 12, 2019 10:52AM
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    There was no "grind", they were designed as "higher level to quest in". EXACTLY what you want back, EXACTLY the thing they had to rework once already because game was on the brink of death.

    And that is when they introduced level scaling and that you can go into any zone on any level. It was FINE before insane gear/CP power creep.

    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 10:55AM
  • Skwor
    Skwor
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    Power creep is not the problem you make it out to be, not even close to being a problem.
    Stupid one shot mechanics and all mobs still locked at cp 160 is the problem. This game needs to grow, which means mobs need to grow and we need to get back to some level based content instead of one tamrial for everything.

    There is a place for one tamrial but there is also a place for level gated content as well. We need both.

    Also your set comparison is wacked, they are not equal sets in effort to compare, you are effectively spiking the data.
    Edited by Skwor on February 12, 2019 11:07AM
  • Jeremy
    Jeremy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    Jeremy wrote: »
    I'm not sure if your post is sarcastic or not. But just in case you are being serious:

    Proc sets aren't the issue. The issue is monsters don't have enough health and stupid AI. They are scaled for low level characters just starting out. With or without proc sets - the landscape on ESO poses very little threat to any veteran player.

    Im not sure if your post is sarcastic or not...but try to put on white gear and remove your CP and lest see if its that easy.

    WHEN you deal with GEAR (proc sets as main culprit as base game sets are quite balanced like armor set i posted) THEN you can go and fine tune content AFTER youve dealt with insane power creep.

    I could easily take off my monster set and it would still be easy.

    I also never said CP wasn't a factor. So you are mischaracterizing what it was I actually said.
    Edited by Jeremy on February 12, 2019 10:57AM
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    Skwor wrote: »
    Power creep is not the problem you make it out to be, not even close to being a problem.
    Stupid one shot mechanics and all mobs still locked at cp 160 is the problem. This game needs to grow, which means mobs need to grow and we need to get back to some level based content instead of one tamrial for everything.

    There us a place for one tamrial but there is also a place for level gated content as well. We need both.

    Also your set comparison is wacked, they are not equal sets in effort to compare, you are effectively spiking the data.


    What, so new players cant catch up EVER?

    Great way to kill the game.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 11:01AM
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    Slack wrote: »
    You take a trash crafted set like Whitestreak and call it "base game set"
    And compare it to a trash monster set to prove your point...
    First of all monster sets are supposed to be strong.
    Secondly, Iceheart is also included in the base game.
    Thirdly, both sets suck in Pve and are absolute super garbage tier for pvp, so what are you even saying?

    Also all the complaining and grumpyness with apparently so little knowledge, seems like you started playing just a few days ago, got beaten up and now cry for nerfs on forums.
    (No worries tho, with that attitude you will fit in perfectly here)

    Stop being dumb, youre part of the problem.
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    Jeremy wrote: »

    I could easily take off my monster set and it would still be easy.

    I also never said CP wasn't a factor. So you are mischaracterizing what it was I actually said.

    Oh ther is many more problematic gear other than monster sets. Generally gear/CP need a huge nerf. Preferably CP changed to just utility/non combat stuff.
  • mairwen85
    mairwen85
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    Gear used to be, then they standardised it for the most part. Sure some sets come out which work better than others in updates but the general values remain the same.

    The big changes were things like light attack buffs, Psijic skills etc. They've done much more to increase player damage than the new sets have.

    And you write that in a thread giving one minor example of complete OPPOSITE.

    "psijic skills" "light attacks buffs" would be non issue IF gear/CP is dealt with.THEN you can go and do tweaks on other things, you dont go and spend a lot of time trying to "fix" minor things.

    You should go and check Pareto principle and dealing with gear/CP as primary source of out of control power creep would fix 80% of power creep issues.

    Referencing something to prove a point... but then discovering it actually proves the opposed view?*

    As per your opening post, there is greater gear influence on Power Creep. Pair with additional buffs to Light attacks, new skill lines with skills out performing trial gear (e.g. Elemental Weapon vs Asylum) = 80%.

    CP is an underlying low volume stat increase with diminishing returns = 20%.

    Pareto principle would be to fix CP scaling first (20%), because that would resolve the gear, new skill line, LA buffs etc. (80%), because it's influence on those would be minimised.

    ZoS current action => do not raise CP cap. Review CP.

    So, ZoS are doing what you prescribe?



    * As a software architect with 18+ years experience in engineering, I'm familiar with the terminology and practical implementation.

    Editted to add (for fun):
    MikaHR wrote: »

    I like when people like you dont even need and rebuttal because they invalidate all of their points in their own post.
    Edited by mairwen85 on February 12, 2019 11:07AM
This discussion has been closed.