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Lore Review for Race Changes

Faulgor
Faulgor
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Goals & Process
  1. Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling.
    • This was one of our more challenging but exciting tasks, as it gave us additional opportunities to work with other teams. We delved deep into our rich and established lore to make bonuses that highlight racial differences. This means that we didn’t outright balance each race to be equal in every avenue of the game, as there’s a story to be told with how the races engage with the world around them. Nords are well known for being hardier races who can take a hit, while High Elves are better at wielding magical spells. If we were to balance them to be equal in both, we’d lose the unique identities of these races.

This is a very important consideration, and I'm happy to see it mentioned. As the balance side of the announced changes has already received considerable feedback, I thought the lore would deserve its own thread.

As a basline for comparison, I'd like to use the last 3 mainline TES games - Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. If I had to source every in-game text and dialogue about what a given race is "like", this post would never end. Out of these three games, Morrowind and Oblivion are mostly consistent, whereas there have been some changes for the races in Skyrim. I'll try to keep these outliers in mind. Further, Morrowind and Oblivion still differentiated between males and females in their attribute bonuses, which I'll also consider.

Altmer
Good Attributes: Intelligence
Bad Attributes: Strength, Speed
Skills: Alchemy, Alteration, Conjuration, Enchanting, Destruction, Illusion, Mysticism, Restoration

It is clear that Altmer are focused on magical abilities, as all their skill bonuses are related to magic. They also have active powers that increase their maximum magicka or magicka regeneration. All of this is perfectly reflected in their bonuses of 2000 magicka and 258 spell power. The resource return on using a class ability is a nice touch in reference to their hierarchical class society, also reflected in their "Highborn" power from Skyrim. The stamina return sticks out a bit, but as they don't have an outstanding weakness in Endurance of Willpower (attributes that influenced fatigue/stamina), this is not completely out of line. Overall their bonuses are very fitting with their lore.

Argonian
Good Attributes: Intelligence (f), Agility (m), Speed (m)
Bad Attributes: Willpower (m), Endurance, Personality
Skills: Alchemy, Alteration, Athletics, Blade, Hand to Hand, Illusion, Light Armor, Medium Armor, Mysticism, Restoration, Security (Lockpicking, Pickpocket, Sneak), Spear, Unarmored

Argonians aren't only the most sexually dimorphic species, their skill bonuses have also changed constantly. There is not one single skill they've had a bonus to in all three games. However, they have always retained some kind of non-offensive magical affinity (Illusion, Alteration, Mysticism, Restoration) as well as skills that require a considerable amount of agility and dexterity (Athletics, Lockpicking, Sneak). Both of these are reflected in their best attributes of Intelligence, Agility and Speed. What Argonians have never been prior to ESO are tanky people who can take a beating, in fact having a weakness in Endurance and Willpower, and an Argonian in heavy armor is basically unheard of. The only thing this could reference is the "Histskin" power from Skyrim, which granted massive health recovery once a day. The Resourceful passive is appropriate, given the bonus to Alchemy in Morrowind and Oblivion, and Quick to Mend can be a reference to their Restoration bonus from Skyrim. However, there is nothing that would reflect Argonian's agile nature. I would suggest to change the 1000 health bonus to 1000 stamina instead.
The resistance to disease is fitting, however, it should be noted that Argonians had complete poison immunity in Morrowind and Oblivion, which only got removed in Skyrim.

Bosmer
Good Attribute: Agility, Speed
Bad Attribute: Strength, Willpower, Endurance
Skills: Acrobatics, Alchemy, Alteration, Light Armor, Lockpicking, Marksman (Archery), Pickpocket, Sneak

One of the fastest and most agile races in Tamriel, they also excel in sneaking and ambushed combat. The bonus to stamina and stamina recovery seem perfectly in line with this, as does the new movement speed bonus after a roll dodge. However, stealth detection is not something that would be associated with Bosmer. They should retain their reduced detection radius from the Stealthy passive, even if the stealth bonus damage is to be removed for balance considerations. While they do have a moderate resistance to poison in Skyrim, they are better known for their resistance to disease.

Breton
Good Attributes: Intelligence, Willpower
Bad Attributes: Agility, Endurance, Speed (m), Strength (f)
Skills: Alchemy, Alteration, Conjuration, Illusion, Mysticism, Restoration, Speech

Similarly to Altmer, a race excelling in magic - however, not offensively as they've never had a bonus to Destruction magic. Instead, they have higher Willpower than the elves, granting them better magicka recovery. Both these things are perfectly reflected in their 7% cost reduction and 100 magicka recovery bonuses. They also have the highest resistance to magic of all races, so their bonus to spell resistance is appropriate.

Dunmer
Good Attributes: Speed
Bad Attributes: Willpower, Endurance (f), Personality (m)
Skills: Alchemy, Alteration, Athletics, Blade (Long Blade, Short Blade), Blunt, Destruction, Illusion, Light Armor, Marksman, Mysticism, Sneak

Dunmer are a jack of all offensive trades, mainly Destruction magic, bladed weapons and bows. They had a bit of an identity crisis with the removal of Mysticism in Skyrim, which rolled their non-offensive magical abilities into Alchemy, Alteration and Illusion, but it's save to say Mysticism would still be their best fit. They do not excel in magic to the degree Altmer or Bretons do, in fact having low Willpower and thus bad magicka recovery. The bonuses to weapon and spell damage as well as 1250 magicka and stamina seem fitting for the Dunmer's dual nature (an option would be to change weapon and spell damage to penetration instead - this would reflect their offensive nature more as it can't be utilized for healing, and give Dunmer something unique). However, the 600 bonus to health is entirely misplaced. I'd recommend removing the health bonus, and instead boosting their magicka further, reflecting their affinity for Mysticism in some way. Their best attribute, Speed, is also entirely absent from their passives. As the fastest race besides Bosmer, they absolutely should have something in this regard - possibly the sprinting bonus currently occupied by Orcs (more on that below). The resistance to fire and burning is obviously perfect.

Imperial
Good Attributes: Personality
Bad Attributes: Agility, Willpower (m), Speed (f)
Skills: Blade (Long Blade), Block, Blunt, Destruction, Hand-to-Hand, Light Armor, Heavy Armor, Mercantile, One-Handed, Restoration, Speechcraft

Imperials are rely a lot on interpersonal skills like Mercantile and Speechcraft (which is possibly missing from Skyrim due to the setting of the Stormcloak Rebellion?). Their combat of choice is physical one-handed with any armor. Their general playstyle is difficult to reflect in ESO, and although the support role of a tank is not too far off, they lack something uniqe in this area. As several races have received an existing item set bonus as a racial bonus in some form, I think a good representation of Imperial's interpersonal skills might be the buff time increase of the Jorvuld's Guidance set, e.g. +20% to all Minor/Major buff times. The block cost reduction certainly does very little, even for tanks. The health gain from the Red Diamond passive is unprecedented, but not too strange - the worst thing that can be said about it is that it is too weak.

Khajiit
Good Attributes: Agility
Bad Attributes: Willpower, Strength (f), Endurance (m)
Skills: Alchemy, Acrobatics, Archery, Athletics, Blade (Short Blade, One-Handed), Hand-to-Hand, Light Armor, Security (Lockpicking, Pickpocket), Sneak

Khajiit are, next to Bosmer and (male) Argonians, the most agile race in Tamriel, with a strong focus on sneaking, stealing and one-handed bladed weapons. All of this is well represented in their bonus to critical hits as well as stamina bonus. Their bonuses to health, magicka and associated recoveries feel unprecedented from a lore perspective, although I can see them as viable efforts to differentiate Khajiit from Bosmer. They are also a good reflection of the Khajiit's morphological variance, with sturdy Cathay-raht and magically gifted Alfiq, even though these subraces are not playable.
However, if there is one race that should have better stealth detection, in the new race changes added to Bosmer, it should be the Khajiit. Their Night Eye ability has always granted them better vision than any other race. My suggestion is to give Khajiit 3m increased detection radius and 3m reduced detection in stealth, and give Bosmer the superior stealth at 5m reduced detection in stealth.

Nord
Good Attributes: Strength, Willpower (f), Endurance (m)
Bad Attributes: Intelligence, Agility, Personality
Skills: Armorer (Smithing), Axe, Blade (Long Blade), Block, Blunt, Light Armor, Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, One-Handed, Two-Handed, Restoration, Spear, Speech

Nords are, next to (male) Redguards, the strongest race in Tamriel, adept with all kinds of weapons and armor for physical combat. However, in ESO, they are relegated entirely to a defensive tank race. While they are quite enduring and steadfast, they are outmatched in this regard by Orcs, and their offensive capabilities (again, as the strongest of all races) are mostly neglected, outside a moderate 1500 stamina bonus. Of course, it should be noted that Nord, Orcs and Redguards aren't that well differentiated in previous games, with all of them being combat-oriented enduring races, compared to more agile or faster ones like Bosmer, Dunmer and Khajiit. It stands to reason that one of them could excel in defense, one in offense, and one in recovery. For that reason, I think it would be best to tweak the new Stalwart passive so that it grants 5 Ultimate every 10 seconds while in combat, not just when taking damage. This would allow for a more offensive use of Nords in line with their brutal heritage, and not upset their current standing as tanks. The resistance to cold and chilled is obviously perfect.

Orc
Good Attributes: Strength, Willpower, Endurance
Bad Attributes: Agility, Speed, Personality
Skills: Armorer (Smithing), Axe, Block, Blunt (One-Handed, Two-Handed), Enchanting, Hand-to-Hand, Medium Armor, Heavy Armor

Orcs are gifted craftsmen, and focus on blunted weapons and heavier armor in combat. They combine strength and endurance like no other race in Tamriel. In ESO however, their bonuses don't reflect that playstyle - but we will concede that from the aforementioned triad of Nord, Orcs and Redguards, they are supposed to be the most aggressive in this game. Their bonus to weapon power is thus not unwarranted. However, their measly bonus of 500 health and stamina is simply too low with respect to their lore as sturdy warriors, as well as in relation to other races' bonuses in ESO. The developer comment mentioned that the defensive capabilities were rolled back in favor of more aggression, but I don't think a good balance have been found here, as other races manage to combine offense and defense or recovery as well. That Khajiit would end up with more health and stamina than Orcs when they also have a massive crit bonus can't be justified from the perspective of the lore. Thus, the health and stamina bonus should at least be increased to 1000.
Another big issue with Orcs is their bonus to sprint speed, namely that they shouldn't have had it to begin with. Canonically, Orcs are the slowest race in Tamriel. It is one thing to bend racial bonuses a little, or to add something they didn't have before. It is something else entirely to turn a previous outstanding weakness into an advantage. You wouldn't turn Altmer into the strongest race, or Redguard into the most magically gifted. Thus, Orcs should lose this bonus (possibly granting it to Dunmer who are currently lacking in uniqueness) in turn for gaining appropriate health and stamina, as well as improving their unique resource return from Unflinching a bit (mainly the health gain).

Redguard
Good Attributes: Strength (m), Endurance
Bad Attributes: Intelligence, Willpower, Personality (m)
Skills: Alteration, Archery, Athletics, Axe, Blade, Block, Destruction, Blunt, Light Armor, Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, Mercantile, One-Handed, Smithing

Similar to Nords, they have occupied every physical combat niche at least once throughout the games, as they are comparably gifted warriors. Like Orcs they excel in Endurance, which is reflected in ESO with their superior Stamina and Stamina recovery. The reduced weapon ability cost reduction represents their affinity to all kinds of weapons really well, although it curiously also boosts destruction and restoration staffs. There could be an argument for giving them more direct offensive power as well, as they are just as strong as Orcs. However, as they already gain 2000 max stamina, this seems to be well represented.

Summary
Argonian: Remove 1000 health bonus for 1000 stamina; Possibly exchange disease for poison resistance
Bosmer: Remove 3m Stealth detection radius for 5m reduced detection radius; Possibly exchange poison resistance for disease resistance
Dunmer: Remove 600 health bonus for 500 magicka, change 258 weapon and spell power to 2974 weapon and spell penetration, add sprint speed bonus and sprint cost reduction from Orc's Swift Warrior
Imperial: Remove block and bash cost from Red Diamond for +20% duration to all Minor/Major buffs
Khajiit: Reduce 5m reduced detection radius to 3m, add 3m Stealth detection radius
Nord: Change Stalwart's Ultimate gain from when hit to when in combat, gain 5 ultimate every 10 seconds
Orc: Increase 500 health and stamina bonus to 1000 health and stamina, remove sprint speed bonus and sprint cost reduction, improve health gain from Unflinching

Obviously, there'd have to be some balancing in the actual magnitudes of these changes. The primary objective was to keep the bonuses more in line with established lore while adding unique bonuses for every race and not upsetting current builds too much.
Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • Left4Daud
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    Pretty decent summary with a solid basis. It’s too bad the lore and common sense (Bosmer/Khajiit changes) seem to have been ignored with this most recent balance endeavor.
  • RaddlemanNumber7
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    I think you missed a very important point of Bosmer lore. In-game descriptions of Bosmer are:

    TES3: The Wood Elves are the various barbarian Elven clanfolk of the Western Valenwood forests. These country cousins of the High Elves and Dark Elves are nimble and quick in body and wit, and because of their curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves are especially suitable as scouts, agents, and thieves. But most of all, the Wood Elves are known for their skills with bows; there are no finer archers in all of Tamriel.

    TES IV The clanfolk of the Western Valenwood forests, also known as "Bosmer." Wood Elves are nimble and quick, making them good scouts and thieves, and there are no finer archers in all of Tamriel. Their ability to command simple creatures is well-known

    TESV The clanfolk of the Western Valenwood forests, also known as "Bosmer." Wood elves make good scouts and thieves, and there are no finer archers in all of Tamriel. They have natural resistances to both poisons and diseases. They can Command Animals to fight for them.

    The proposed changes to racial passives make it look like Dunmer are now going to be the finest archers in all Tamriel.
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  • Rake
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    Seems all races can be all roles but if you want damage dont be Nord or Imperial. These two have no sustain and no damage.
  • Seraphayel
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    Awesome summary, +1.
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    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • Eareindur
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    Great iniciative!

    I think you left out of the conclusions one thing. True, Bretons would keep their (nerfed) Spell Resistance (2310), but the fact that Nords would be getting a higher Spell Resistance (3960) is unprecedented and unsupported by lore.
  • Luigi_Vampa
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    I think you missed a very important point of Bosmer lore. In-game descriptions of Bosmer are:

    TES3: The Wood Elves are the various barbarian Elven clanfolk of the Western Valenwood forests. These country cousins of the High Elves and Dark Elves are nimble and quick in body and wit, and because of their curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves are especially suitable as scouts, agents, and thieves. But most of all, the Wood Elves are known for their skills with bows; there are no finer archers in all of Tamriel.

    TES IV The clanfolk of the Western Valenwood forests, also known as "Bosmer." Wood Elves are nimble and quick, making them good scouts and thieves, and there are no finer archers in all of Tamriel. Their ability to command simple creatures is well-known

    TESV The clanfolk of the Western Valenwood forests, also known as "Bosmer." Wood elves make good scouts and thieves, and there are no finer archers in all of Tamriel. They have natural resistances to both poisons and diseases. They can Command Animals to fight for them.

    The proposed changes to racial passives make it look like Dunmer are now going to be the finest archers in all Tamriel.

    Good point. Bosmer should be given a bonus to ranged damage or a damage bonus to bow skills specifically. This could help put their DPS on par through the typical Stam DPS rotation with Endless Hail and Poison Injection.
    PC/EU DC
  • Faulgor
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    I think you missed a very important point of Bosmer lore.

    I refrained from something like this because no other race has a bonus to a particular weapon type. In fact, the bonuses to specific elements were removed with these changes, and the effects widened to include more damage effects (e.g. Orcs melee damage bonus changed to weapon damage). Bosmer are also one of the best races for sustain, so added more direct damage to them doesn't seem like the best solution, even more so because they aren't gifted in strength.
    A range increase for all ranged abilities (maybe even including heals, etc) could be an interesting solution, what do you think?
    Eareindur wrote: »
    Great iniciative!

    I think you left out of the conclusions one thing. True, Bretons would keep their (nerfed) Spell Resistance (2310), but the fact that Nords would be getting a higher Spell Resistance (3960) is unprecedented and unsupported by lore.

    I thought about that, too. First I wanted to create a ranking for each stat in the game (Spell Res, Weapon Power, Magicka, etc) and list which race should be on top for any given stat, but then decided to work that into the general feedback. I guess Spell Resistance slipped through. I don't think granting Bretons the maximum Spell Resistance (3960) of Nords would unbalance the game too much, but it's certainly a considerable nerf for Nords.
    Perhaps Nords could get a resistance to shock damage and an immunity to concussed instead of their Spell Resistance? They lost that bonus in Oblivion, but in Morrowind they had 100% frost and 50% shock resistance. Otherwise, Bretons and Nords could just exchange Spell Resistance values.
    It's also noteworthy that Orcs had Magic Resistance in Morrowind and Oblivion (25%, half of Bretons'), so they should get it even before Nords.

    There are certainly more things that could be changed or added in terms of lore, e.g. races skilled in Mercantile could get better deals from NPC merchants, and I didn't even consider all possible racial powers like Dunmers' Ancestor Guardian/Wrath or Nord's Thunder Fist (racial ultimates, perchance, one day?). For now, I mainly tried to make some tweaks within the scope of the proposed changes that would fit the lore of the races better without expanding too much. I tend to over-develop and have to reign myself in sometimes.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • Bladerunner1
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    I like most of the ideas, but have a feeling that this one:

    Dunmer: change 258 weapon and spell power to 2974 weapon and spell penetration

    could lead to mismatching in trials, which would cause some groups to either leave them out entirely or make every stamina character in the group a Dunmer
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    Well thought out, sensible suggestions.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Matthros
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    I like most of the ideas, but have a feeling that this one:

    Dunmer: change 258 weapon and spell power to 2974 weapon and spell penetration

    could lead to mismatching in trials, which would cause some groups to either leave them out entirely or make every stamina character in the group a Dunmer

    I would love this for my Dark Elves so i can allocate my pen CP to other areas.
  • Faulgor
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    I like most of the ideas, but have a feeling that this one:

    Dunmer: change 258 weapon and spell power to 2974 weapon and spell penetration

    could lead to mismatching in trials, which would cause some groups to either leave them out entirely or make every stamina character in the group a Dunmer

    I think it would mostly result in Dunmer not putting champion points into Spell Erosion or Piercing, but there are other issues with this. Mainly that penetration cannot be increased by further buffs, like weapon and spell power can through Brutality and Sorcery. I suspect this would result in a further DPS loss, when Dunmer already struggles to keep up with Altmer. I used the standard item sets values, but I'm not certain how the math would work out in the end.
    The main purpose was to remove the bonus to healing weapon/spell power would provide (as Dunmer don't have an affinity for that at all) without losing DPS, and opening up a "bonus slot" for the sprint bonus to represent their superior speed.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • AcadianPaladin
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    I played Bosmeri mages in both Oblivion and Skyrim extensively. Yes, the Bosmer started at a slight drawback, but with diligent choices and attention to leveling, they were able to completely overcome those initial limitations. Both those games allowed a Bosmeri mage to be as good as any other possible mage by end game. Far cry from ESO stuffing races into either a stamina or magicka box with permanent limitations that become even more evident in end game.

    I figure Shalidor, one of the greatest mages ever and a Nord must have trained up under Oblivion or Skyrim rules. ;)
    PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo
  • ChefZero
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    Dunmer
    Good Attributes: Speed
    Bad Attributes: Willpower, Endurance (f), Personality (m)
    Skills: Alchemy, Alteration, Athletics, Blade (Long Blade, Short Blade), Blunt, Destruction, Illusion, Light Armor, Marksman, Mysticism, Sneak

    Dunmer are a jack of all offensive trades, mainly Destruction magic, bladed weapons and bows. They had a bit of an identity crisis with the removal of Mysticism in Skyrim, which rolled their non-offensive magical abilities into Alchemy, Alteration and Illusion, but it's save to say Mysticism would still be their best fit. They do not excel in magic to the degree Altmer or Bretons do, in fact having low Willpower and thus bad magicka recovery. The bonuses to weapon and spell damage as well as 1250 magicka and stamina seem fitting for the Dunmer's dual nature (an option would be to change weapon and spell damage to penetration instead - this would reflect their offensive nature more as it can't be utilized for healing, and give Dunmer something unique). However, the 600 bonus to health is entirely misplaced. I'd recommend removing the health bonus, and instead boosting their magicka further, reflecting their affinity for Mysticism in some way. Their best attribute, Speed, is also entirely absent from their passives. As the fastest race besides Bosmer, they absolutely should have something in this regard - possibly the sprinting bonus currently occupied by Orcs (more on that below). The resistance to fire and burning is obviously perfect.

    I agree with you about the 600 HP bonus and the missing speed but I disagree with your conclusion. In Morrowind and Oblivion only 2 out of 7 skills are magical, means the weighting is more in Stamina. So adding even more magicka isn't a good idea. The 600 HP should be changed to a speed bonus, is it too strong, the magicka can be further reduced for it.

    I like the idea of switching from damage to penetration to represent the aggressive nature.
    PC EU - DC only
  • MartiniDaniels
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    I played Bosmeri mages in both Oblivion and Skyrim extensively. Yes, the Bosmer started at a slight drawback, but with diligent choices and attention to leveling, they were able to completely overcome those initial limitations. Both those games allowed a Bosmeri mage to be as good as any other possible mage by end game. Far cry from ESO stuffing races into either a stamina or magicka box with permanent limitations that become even more evident in end game.

    I figure Shalidor, one of the greatest mages ever and a Nord must have trained up under Oblivion or Skyrim rules. ;)

    I think they need to give bosmer some magicka recovery, maybe with a proc, like on use buffing ability restore 500 magicka, once per 5 seconds. That won't make bosmer OP as stamdps but will add at least something for healing and tanking.
  • ChefZero
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    I like most of the ideas, but have a feeling that this one:

    Dunmer: change 258 weapon and spell power to 2974 weapon and spell penetration

    could lead to mismatching in trials, which would cause some groups to either leave them out entirely or make every stamina character in the group a Dunmer

    Comon this topic is about lore and not pve endgame balancing...
    PC EU - DC only
  • GrumpyDuckling
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    "However, stealth detection is not something that would be associated with Bosmer."

    It makes sense according to lore. They are hunters. Of course they would excel at detecting hiding prey.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    "However, stealth detection is not something that would be associated with Bosmer."

    It makes sense according to lore. They are hunters. Of course they would excel at detecting hiding prey.

    Except the lore explicitly states that Bosmer are excellent at stealth. Repeatedly.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • GrumpyDuckling
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    "However, stealth detection is not something that would be associated with Bosmer."

    It makes sense according to lore. They are hunters. Of course they would excel at detecting hiding prey.

    Except the lore explicitly states that Bosmer are excellent at stealth. Repeatedly.

    Of course they are excellent at stealth -- no one is arguing that they aren't. It's the statement that "stealth detection is not something that would be associated with Bosmer" that doesn't make sense.

    Bosmer are hunters (specifically ranged hunters), so it makes sense that they excel at detecting prey.
    Edited by GrumpyDuckling on January 22, 2019 5:34AM
  • Faulgor
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    I played Bosmeri mages in both Oblivion and Skyrim extensively. Yes, the Bosmer started at a slight drawback, but with diligent choices and attention to leveling, they were able to completely overcome those initial limitations. Both those games allowed a Bosmeri mage to be as good as any other possible mage by end game. Far cry from ESO stuffing races into either a stamina or magicka box with permanent limitations that become even more evident in end game.

    I figure Shalidor, one of the greatest mages ever and a Nord must have trained up under Oblivion or Skyrim rules. ;)
    Yeah, that's a fundamental difference between the main single player games and ESO. Back then your race only influenced how you started out, in ESO the bonuses follow you all the way to max level. If we wanted to change that we'd have to completely change ESO's approach to racial passives, something I don't think many people would welcome.
    ChefZero wrote: »
    Faulgor wrote: »
    Dunmer
    Good Attributes: Speed
    Bad Attributes: Willpower, Endurance (f), Personality (m)
    Skills: Alchemy, Alteration, Athletics, Blade (Long Blade, Short Blade), Blunt, Destruction, Illusion, Light Armor, Marksman, Mysticism, Sneak

    Dunmer are a jack of all offensive trades, mainly Destruction magic, bladed weapons and bows. They had a bit of an identity crisis with the removal of Mysticism in Skyrim, which rolled their non-offensive magical abilities into Alchemy, Alteration and Illusion, but it's save to say Mysticism would still be their best fit. They do not excel in magic to the degree Altmer or Bretons do, in fact having low Willpower and thus bad magicka recovery. The bonuses to weapon and spell damage as well as 1250 magicka and stamina seem fitting for the Dunmer's dual nature (an option would be to change weapon and spell damage to penetration instead - this would reflect their offensive nature more as it can't be utilized for healing, and give Dunmer something unique). However, the 600 bonus to health is entirely misplaced. I'd recommend removing the health bonus, and instead boosting their magicka further, reflecting their affinity for Mysticism in some way. Their best attribute, Speed, is also entirely absent from their passives. As the fastest race besides Bosmer, they absolutely should have something in this regard - possibly the sprinting bonus currently occupied by Orcs (more on that below). The resistance to fire and burning is obviously perfect.

    I agree with you about the 600 HP bonus and the missing speed but I disagree with your conclusion. In Morrowind and Oblivion only 2 out of 7 skills are magical, means the weighting is more in Stamina. So adding even more magicka isn't a good idea. The 600 HP should be changed to a speed bonus, is it too strong, the magicka can be further reduced for it.

    I like the idea of switching from damage to penetration to represent the aggressive nature.
    Admittedly, the magicka bonus is also a bit of a concession to the fact that Dunmer have been a magicka race in ESO up until now. But as mentioned, things also changed in Skyrim for Dunmer when 3 out of their 6 skills were magical schools, and another one used to be associated with magic (Alchemy). Their racial power also became destruction magic. It seems Dunmer could fall on either side of magicka/stamina.

    Giving another thought to penetration over power, I actually like the idea more and more. Penetration would also buff sources of damage that aren't increased by weapon/spell power, mainly enchantments, proc sets and pets. That might give Dunmer a small edge over Altmer in specific builds, given the right balance is found in the magnitude of the bonus.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    "However, stealth detection is not something that would be associated with Bosmer."

    It makes sense according to lore. They are hunters. Of course they would excel at detecting hiding prey.

    Except the lore explicitly states that Bosmer are excellent at stealth. Repeatedly.

    Of course they are excellent at stealth -- no one is arguing that they aren't.

    The devs are. They are completely disregarding decades of lore by taking away the bonus to stealth in its entirety to replace it with something that is only of value in PVP and that has exactly no utility in PVE. With the current change, no, Bosmer will no longer be excellent at stealth; only the Khajiit will be. That's what has people a bit upset.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • AcadianPaladin
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    In Oblivion, the ability to detect hidden foes was the domain of mages via the spell / enchantment of 'Detect Life'. No racial connection to anything.
    PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo
  • GrumpyDuckling
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    "However, stealth detection is not something that would be associated with Bosmer."

    It makes sense according to lore. They are hunters. Of course they would excel at detecting hiding prey.

    Except the lore explicitly states that Bosmer are excellent at stealth. Repeatedly.

    Of course they are excellent at stealth -- no one is arguing that they aren't.

    The devs are. They are completely disregarding decades of lore by taking away the bonus to stealth in its entirety to replace it with something that is only of value in PVP and that has exactly no utility in PVE. With the current change, no, Bosmer will no longer be excellent at stealth; only the Khajiit will be. That's what has people a bit upset.

    Not my original point. We already know the devs took stealth away and that strong arguments are being made to bring it back (as it should be).

    My point is that this statement: "However, stealth detection is not something that would be associated with Bosmer" doesn't make sense because Bosmer are hunters (specifically ranged hunters), so it's logical to say that they excel at detecting prey.
  • Faulgor
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    "However, stealth detection is not something that would be associated with Bosmer."

    It makes sense according to lore. They are hunters. Of course they would excel at detecting hiding prey.

    Except the lore explicitly states that Bosmer are excellent at stealth. Repeatedly.

    Of course they are excellent at stealth -- no one is arguing that they aren't.

    The devs are. They are completely disregarding decades of lore by taking away the bonus to stealth in its entirety to replace it with something that is only of value in PVP and that has exactly no utility in PVE. With the current change, no, Bosmer will no longer be excellent at stealth; only the Khajiit will be. That's what has people a bit upset.

    Not my original point. We already know the devs took stealth away and that strong arguments are being made to bring it back (as it should be).

    My point is that this statement: "However, stealth detection is not something that would be associated with Bosmer" doesn't make sense because Bosmer are hunters (specifically ranged hunters), so it's logical to say that they excel at detecting prey.

    I thought it did when I wrote it. It's not that you couldn't find a good reason why Bosmer or other races for that matter might be good at detection (e.g. as AcadianPaladin pointed out, Detect Life could be used for this, a spell in the Mysticism school, so races like Dunmer proficient in Mysticism would be good at detecting). My thought was when asked which one of the 10 TES races was associated with stealth detection, the most common answer would be Khajiit because of their Night Eye ability. But maybe that was a mistake on my part.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    (removed due to being wrong)
    Edited by Cundu_Ertur on January 22, 2019 4:37PM
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
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    I kinda get the Dunmer penetration argument, but when we can conceed that the split damage is good enough lore wise, I dont think it should be touched.

    Dunmer has decent Magicka potential and strong Stamina potential at the moment. (Balancing Wise) Switching to pen when most top builds are already at 18k penetration (minus fractures) all this would acheive is a major nerf to the race forcing people to try to claim back a few % of damage through re-distributing their CP away from pen.

    Dunmer is in a pretty good spot, I dont think that change is worth it for a major nerf for only a marginal lore accuracy.
    EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
    NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade
  • fokusnik
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    Another big issue with Orcs is their bonus to sprint speed, namely that they shouldn't have had it to begin with. Canonically, Orcs are the slowest race in Tamriel.

    I have always considered this to be a bit of a nod to the fact that Tamriel has a second prominent type of Orc, namely the Wood Orc, and for them this passive is extremely fitting.

    Edit: And before anyone asks "Who plays a Wood Orc?" I will raise my hand. It was the primary reason for me to buy Any Race, Any Faction.
    Edited by fokusnik on January 22, 2019 5:16PM
  • Davadin
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    Goals & Process
      Nord
      Good Attributes: Strength, Willpower (f), Endurance (m)
      Bad Attributes: Intelligence, Agility, Personality
      Skills: Armorer (Smithing), Axe, Blade (Long Blade), Block, Blunt, Light Armor, Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, One-Handed, Two-Handed, Restoration, Spear, Speech

      Nords are, next to (male) Redguards, the strongest race in Tamriel, adept with all kinds of weapons and armor for physical combat. However, in ESO, they are relegated entirely to a defensive tank race. While they are quite enduring and steadfast, they are outmatched in this regard by Orcs, and their offensive capabilities (again, as the strongest of all races) are mostly neglected, outside a moderate 1500 stamina bonus. Of course, it should be noted that Nord, Orcs and Redguards aren't that well differentiated in previous games, with all of them being combat-oriented enduring races, compared to more agile or faster ones like Bosmer, Dunmer and Khajiit. It stands to reason that one of them could excel in defense, one in offense, and one in recovery. For that reason, I think it would be best to tweak the new Stalwart passive so that it grants 5 Ultimate every 10 seconds while in combat, not just when taking damage. This would allow for a more offensive use of Nords in line with their brutal heritage, and not upset their current standing as tanks. The resistance to cold and chilled is obviously perfect.

      this is amazing, yet, i feel like (and Im a Nord main) could be a little overkill.

      Nord currently in live aren't great. we're at the bottom of the barrel. we need help. we wanna do more than just tank.

      adding resistance (dead people do zero DPS) and ultigen when hit is great.


      but simply staying in combat when a lot of time in Cyrodiil we get stuck in combat? my leap is 110 ulti, Dawnbreaker 125. if i'm using Bloodspawn set and throwing caltrops, i get a LOT of ulti. making Nords generate even more ulti seems a bit off.


      I propose swapping it to "when hitting with melee or range, physical or magical", u generate 5 ulti. not when being hit.

      definitely not simply being in combat.

      just my 2c
      August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
      Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
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    1. Andele
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      Faulgor wrote: »

      As a basline for comparison, I'd like to use the last 3 mainline TES games - Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. If I had to source every in-game text and dialogue about what a given race is "like", this post would never end. Out of these three games, Morrowind and Oblivion are mostly consistent, whereas there have been some changes for the races in Skyrim. I'll try to keep these outliers in mind. Further, Morrowind and Oblivion still differentiated between males and females in their attribute bonuses, which I'll also consider.


      Summary
      Argonian: Remove 1000 health bonus for 1000 stamina; Possibly exchange disease for poison resistance
      Bosmer: Remove 3m Stealth detection radius for 5m reduced detection radius; Possibly exchange poison resistance for disease resistance
      Dunmer: Remove 600 health bonus for 500 magicka, change 258 weapon and spell power to 2974 weapon and spell penetration, add sprint speed bonus and sprint cost reduction from Orc's Swift Warrior
      Imperial: Remove block and bash cost from Red Diamond for +20% duration to all Minor/Major buffs
      Khajiit: Reduce 5m reduced detection radius to 3m, add 3m Stealth detection radius
      Nord: Change Stalwart's Ultimate gain from when hit to when in combat, gain 5 ultimate every 10 seconds
      Orc: Increase 500 health and stamina bonus to 1000 health and stamina, remove sprint speed bonus and sprint cost reduction, improve health gain from Unflinching

      Obviously, there'd have to be some balancing in the actual magnitudes of these changes. The primary objective was to keep the bonuses more in line with established lore while adding unique bonuses for every race and not upsetting current builds too much.

      For using the prior games as a baseline, you mostly used the racials and not lore as:
      Black Marsh is feared explicitly for the myriad of deadly diseases that its local life forms resist, also where is the concept of them wearing plate being outlandish from? Morrowind, oblivion & skyrim got got an xileel (one is safe to assume argonians didnt invade oblivion in robes and gambesons only), not to mention bodyguards, enforces, shadowscales & fighters guilds members (wearing plate) and legends portrays the imperial influenced archein as wearing at least ringmail.

      Archery (thus keen eyes to hunt valenwood creatures) and poison skills mentioned by others for Bosmer, one of the more notable events in their timeline is how they lost a big chunk of their population to the Thrassian Plague (noted usually along with references of the Alessian Order and more notably recently right here in ESO in the sunken town area)

      Dark elf part id just note that the quickness/speed is more on the "quick bursts of speed" on both micro and macro scale (personal mobility and very assassination & ploy heavy culture once it gets established while ashlanders keep their entire living conditions mobile and raid tactics), thus likely no sprint cost reduction, but sneak speed bonus.

      Stalward being either a on getting hit or on hit as response to anger again fits in line with them escalating in anger/hot blooded temper, but just sitting in combat wouldnt/doesnt.

      As for comment about redguards comment in the nord section, they have never been referenced as actually strong/having strength comparable to nords or even imperials, only notes of quick skill with their weapons, adapting to various armor usage and of both sufficient dexterity and constitution to remain for long sea (their "elite military"/the best of the best redguards not only ended up first losing to the empire, but then damn lost most of southern hammerfell to the bloody high elves),
      Edited by Andele on January 23, 2019 12:37AM
    2. max_only
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      Spot on.
      #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
      #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
      || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
      ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
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