What makes the forums so toxic ? ( Constructive Criticism )

Danikat · February 2019

Protossyder wrote: »

Is toxicity even a problem? Is anyone here really suffering from the "evil" community?

It's certainly not the worst forum I've seen, but then I used to be on one where some people were trying to incite riots at real-life events. Real riots - people destroying property, attacking other people, setting fires, police called out to stop it etc. riots - because they didn't like some of the creative and business decisions related to the stuff the forum was for (and on rare occasions they succeeded). And they weren't much nicer online either.

That community has gotten a lot better over the last 15-20 years, and a lot of it comes down to people finally being honest with themselves and each other about the kind of behaviour they should accept and making a conscious effort to encourage that. (And at the extreme end some people were 'excommunicated' - banned not just from 1 site but all of them, and blocked on social media, so they couldn't just start causing trouble elsewhere, and while we couldn't stop them attending real life events they were kept out of community meet-ups before and after. They didn't always admit they were wrong, but as a lone voice with no way to coordinate or stir up trouble on a large scale they were able to do a lot less damage.)

Like I said the ESO forum is nowhere near that bad, it's not even among the worst gaming sites, but it can still get pretty negative. I wouldn't say I'm suffering as a result of being here but I've definitely felt worse about the game, the fans and myself after an evening on the forum than an evening actually playing and chatting to people in the game.

It's also affected my perceptions of the game. For example I used to think I should never, ever even consider opening the dungeon finder, much less using it, because my low-CP hybrid build characters would be instantly kicked from any group I dared to inflict myself on. Even now, knowing my actual experience could not be more different from that (note: I do normal mode dungeons only) I can still feel reluctant about trying to join PUGs, even ones organised in map chat, after spending time on the forum hearing over and over and over that players like me are not wanted and should not be tolerated.

Apply the same sort of mild but constant criticism to subscribing, or not subscribing, caring too much or not enough about how your character looks, earning and showing off achievements, using non-combat pets, using combat pets, not having enough gold, having too much gold, liking recent changes, disliking recent changes and everything else you can imagine anyone having an opinion on and it's easy to feel pretty worn down and disheartened about the game and the community.

DeadlyRecluse · February 2019

Like all game forums:

When people are happy, they play the game.

When they are unhappy, they come to the forums.

Therefore, forums are almost always more negative than the actual game population.

There are exceptions--people who just love the forums, people who hang out here while at work, etc. etc., but generally that holds true.

Protossyder · February 2019

Danikat wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Is toxicity even a problem? Is anyone here really suffering from the "evil" community?

It's certainly not the worst forum I've seen, but then I used to be on one where some people were trying to incite riots at real-life events. Real riots - people destroying property, attacking other people, setting fires, police called out to stop it etc. riots - because they didn't like some of the creative and business decisions related to the stuff the forum was for (and on rare occasions they succeeded). And they weren't much nicer online either. (...)

This is how I imagine those people and you should be wondering how they managed to start their PC, open the browser and join the forum you talked about.

All jokes aside, I think that our forum is just how a forum is meant to be. Nobody comes here to create a thread about everything being "Friede, Freude, Eierkuchen" (german phrase for "puppies and kittens").
They come here to discuss certain topics, so you should expect some tension and different opinions. I honestly see more people crying about toxicity than actual destructive behavior.

Agenericname · February 2019

Protossyder wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Is toxicity even a problem? Is anyone here really suffering from the "evil" community?

It's certainly not the worst forum I've seen, but then I used to be on one where some people were trying to incite riots at real-life events. Real riots - people destroying property, attacking other people, setting fires, police called out to stop it etc. riots - because they didn't like some of the creative and business decisions related to the stuff the forum was for (and on rare occasions they succeeded). And they weren't much nicer online either. (...)

This is how I imagine those people and you should be wondering how they managed to start their PC, open the browser and join the forum you talked about.

All jokes aside, I think that our forum is just how a forum is meant to be. Nobody comes here to create a thread about everything being "Friede, Freude, Eierkuchen" (german phrase for "puppies and kittens").
They come here to discuss certain topics, so you should expect some tension and different opinions. I honestly see more people crying about toxicity than actual destructive behavior.

I think that sums it up pretty well.

Thannazzar · February 2019

TBH it's mostly general topics that get toxic, largely as a result of clickbait posts specifically placed their by posters rather than in the correct section eg combat changes.

Wider than that the toxic posts tend to be generated from:

"this ability impacts my personal playstyle and I want you to Nerf it or buff my chosen class" requests.

The foundation is that certain posters are blissfully unaware that any players exist beyond them. They believe they should be able to easily undertake any content, gank players with impunity and get anything they ask for on the basis ZOS owes them for playing the companies game. It's typical millennial egoistic self indulgence pure and simple.

The liklihood is it won't change. Whiners will continue to whine.

The optimal solution is for the forum moderators to move posts to the proper thread when they are raised in general, the resulting lack of attention that these malcontents then receive when their post is condemned to the combat systems area will likely be a incentive for them to stop posting their toxic drivel.

Kiralyn2000 · February 2019

In a general "online game forum" sense? The fact that there's no 'real' consequences for anything people do. (i.e, if you're a jerk, no-one can reach through the monitor and punch you in the face; unlike if you were a jerk to a large man in a bar)

Look up GIFT (on TVTropes) or Online Disinhibition Effect.

But yeah, this place has nothing on other 'toxic' forums.

Uryel · February 2019

My two cents : forums in any MMO will have the same problem as they have always had, and that his, the community on the forum is absolutely not representative of the game community as a whole.

Most players never, and I mean NEVER use the forums. They don't read the notes for the next patch weeks in advance. They won't even always read the patch notes after the patch is out. They don't care that much about how high their DPS is, how much penetration is too much, what or even if there is a resist cap, what skill is OP... They just play the game.

Whereas on the forums you mostly have competitive players who crunch stats all the time to squeeze that extra 1% damage, people who want to react to a change they don't like, or anticipated a change and came here to complain beforehand.

I do fall into the last category. I've been playing for over 3 years now, and never even bothered activating my foruml account until recently, because I had complaints. Complaints about how Steam was causing additionnal issues and I couldn't play with my wife who currently resides away (so we play together in the evenings to make up for the distance). And mostly, complaints about how the removal of stealth from the Bosmers in the future update was basically a crime against the lore and going to affect my gameplay in a very unpleasant way (in PvE, I don't PvP, so keep your "nerf toxic snipers in Cyrodill" complaints for yourself). Those issues were big enough to drag me from under my rock.

So, yeah, forums are toxic by nature because people there often believe they know better, are owed something, or both. Even when complaining in a mostly civil way, we still want to prove our point, that we are right, and obviously we'll encounter people with an opposite point of view. The rest is made by the magic of being anonymous over the Internet.

And well, to be honest, we have a right to complain. We are paying customers for a service, and it's only natural that we want this service to fulfill our requirements. Provided said requirements are not unreasonable, and if the service we pay for is straying too far from what made us chose it in the first place. The problem with said complaints is that they missrepresent the general opinion of a much larger community that is simply enjoying the game as is is while we have pseudo-expert debates and get all salty about it.

Juhasow · February 2019

What makes forum toxic ? Fact that it exist.

SgtSilock · February 2019

Basically it’s the lack of communication from ZOS. Why don’t they speak to their player base? Why don’t they inform us on what’s happening? The stuff they are breaking is affecting us and many of us subscribe monthly and expect more.

All ZOS need to do is TALK TO US, and this forum would be a lot more tolerable.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_BillE @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GaryA

iiYuki · February 2019

- ZO$ acknowledging their mistakes and major problems with the game and actually COMMUNICATING with the community to stop this speculation and infighting.

- For people to realize that there are many different types of people who play this game and to not instantly label people as "elitist" for wanting to play the meta, or only wanting to play with other good or meta build players. They put the time into the game they can play with who they want.

- To stop championing nerfs then crying when they inevitably *** your class up the patch after.

Zhoyzu · February 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Less crazy decisions and more communication from ZOS would go a long way in alleviating much of the frustration players express.

/thread

MEBengalsFan2001 · February 2019

Forums are toxic due to difference of opinions on various topics of the game. Some people like the changes and other hate them. Than on top of that there is also the thought that the game will end if devs make changes that impact PVP and make classes weaker, etc... This can also be applied to PVE.

An example of how things can become toxic is a player coming online talking about changes to the primary class/race they play and instead of trying to get help the player writes a rant. The follow up posters will either harass the player or simply pull the suggest along. Even when someone start a new post and ask for help some follow up poster are simply rude and this lead to what should be a thread on helping another player to a hostile thread where the original poster may feel attacked by follow up posters.

The thing is though it requires both the original poster and follow up poster all to keep an open mind about the various topics so that topics stay informative and productive, but that is rarely the case, so it become toxic.

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

I don't see anything toxic in people sharing their opinion on game, even if their posts are negative or biting.
But I consider toxic when people are trying to quench free opinions and create threads about persons being toxic, "stop whining" etc

Tandor · February 2019

Turelus wrote: »

It's a few things I think, both at fault of ZOS and the community.

ZOS doesn't do a very good job with communication a lot of the time, often letting big issues (EU Servers right now) go without comment for weeks or forever, this frustrates the community and causes toxic posting towards ZOS.

We as a community also have the issue that we mostly just complain on the forums. It's easier (and human nature) to focus on the negatives rather than the positives, as such we make a lot of threads in that theme.

There is also the fact that some people are just rude and have no respect for others. There are plenty of post swearing, insulting, threatening etc. where the posted seems to not grasp basic standards of decency.

The solutions to fix it IMO would be:-
ZOS to tighten up on some of the rules regarding toxic posting, I've stated many times how impressed with its forum rules on toxic posts (read here)

ZOS to sit down and figure out what's stopping them from engaging with the community and remove those blockers, maybe it's lack of time, marketing/PR blocks, unfriendly atmosphere on the forums. Whatever it is they need to clear them, and get better involvement with the wider community.

Community members need to grow up, stop acting like entitled edgy teenagers and show respect to ZOS and other community members.

Community members should actively help moderation by using the report post button when they see infractions, this helps clear away toxic garbage and keep a more positive focus.

I agree with all of that @Turelus . I also think there's the modern "entitlement" element creeping in to this, in the sense that when players have a problem they expect ZOS to fix it and aren't remotely interested in doing anything to help themselves fix it or at least apply a workaround while ZOS work on a fix. The "entitlement" crowd also expect everything to be done NOW and don't realise that modern games are incredibly complex and there's a need to ensure that even when a fix is arrived at it is properly tested and doesn't break something else in the process.

Ultimately, however, it comes down to the need for a greater level of communication on the part of ZOS and a greater level of maturity and tolerance on the part of the players. I have no doubt whatsoever that there is a direct link between the two and that while the players will think that the former is the starting point to the latter, ZOS will see it the other way round.

Lastly, and this has been discussed here many times by both the players and ZOS, it would greatly help if the forum moderators had a separate demarcation from the developers and community managers, such that their (often - but not always - necessary) modding posts didn't appear in the margin of a thread title on the main forum page where they mislead players into thinking that the topic has been addressed by someone with an answer only for them to discover that it's yet another "thanks for your understanding" admonishment.

Lastly +1

: Where is the improved communication process that was announced towards the end of last year but on which - own goal ZOS - there has been no further communication?

Genomic · February 2019

I really hate the overuse of that word, 'toxic'. It's a lazy, ridiculously generic descriptor that is typically used as an umbrella for 'people are disagreeing with my opinion/viewpoint'.

Tandor · February 2019

Thannazzar wrote: »

<snip> TBH it's mostly general topics that get toxic, largely as a result of clickbait posts specifically placed their by posters rather than in the correct section eg combat changes. <snip>

I agree with that, especially currently where most of the topics belong either on the PTS forum (racial passive changes) or on the appropriate Technical Support forum (PC EU performance). Sadly, players don't seem to realise that only mods can be relied on to read this forum while the appropriate key team members read (and more commonly respond to) the other forums.

Tandor · February 2019

Genomic wrote: »

I really hate the overuse of that word, 'toxic'. It's a lazy, ridiculously generic descriptor that is typically used as an umbrella for 'people are disagreeing with my opinion/viewpoint'.

I think it's more to do with the level of mutual hostility on a forum. In any event, I much prefer the use of that term to the application of "cancer" to gaming terminology.

Sygil05 · February 2019

There's always going to be a certain level of toxicity in a forum like this, but, as others have mentioned, a lack of communication from ZOS over the years seems to be the biggest driver of this behavior.

The recent notes included with the racial passive changes was a great step in the right direction to fixing this, and really helped explain the rational behind some of the bigger changes that are being implemented that will have a direct impact on customers. Unfortunately, they screw it all up by posting that "they're taking a new approach" and not following through as they promised (referring to: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/445615/combat-update-in-u21-a-new-approach/p1).

I mean, seriously, next week will make 3 months since they said they were reducing upcoming changes to allow for more time to work on a long-term plan and improving communication. The scope of the next update is pretty minimal, so what has everyone been working on instead?

DaveMoeDee · February 2019

They are on the Internet and mostly anonymous. There is little reason for unpleasant people to hold back.

yodased · February 2019

People who visit a forum for a game they like are a certain type of people, people who post on that forum are a level of magnitude more involved, those that are on a forum that has stars and they have over 7, they are a completely different level of obsessed.

When we put so much of our time and energy into something and it looks like its going to change, making our experience worse, especially if that change is to help those we feel are not "true" players of the game like we are, emotions run hot.

Take all that emotion and put it into a hyper confined and moderated/censored environment and you are going to get exactly what you have here, several overarching tropes and ideas basically in constant flux with the rare cool story and human interest update.

We would like to think that we are important singularly, which is completely untrue, we are not even important as a group, so when we demand special attention from the developers and don't get it because well, we aren't owed it and aren't exactly nice, that just stokes that pressure cooker even more.

nckg84 · February 2019

ZOS not giving any ***.