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Imperial Racial Passives in Review (Plus insight into the racial rework generally)

WikiMeister
WikiMeister
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TL;DR: ZOS' racial numbers are out of whack - popular races are skewed already for massive numerical advantages, while 'lesser' races fall drastically behind them in all gameplay styles.

I will preface this (lengthy) message in advance that while I am no regular on these forums, anyone with functional eyesight and a sense of reason can just tell that Imperial as a race falls steeply behind every other race in terms of performance in almost every conceivable form. I have mained on an Imperial character for reasons of preference and roleplay since '15, but my alleged bias aside, there are gaping mathematical flaws which have caused it to fall from grace the way it has, and proven from tests by other helpful members of community. While I write this, I will also bring to light other races (like Argonian, while powerhouses in Live have been heavily maimed as a result of this PTS) who have been unfairly shafted in terms of statistical weighting.

Imperial, first of all, cannot perform a DPS role anywhere near as effectively as its stamina contemporaries (Bosmer, Khajiit, Redguard, Orc, though in no specific order of precedence), it most certainly has no place as a magicka build whether DPS or healer, and is a third-rate tank when compared to Argonian healing output (to self and allies), and Nord with superior basal resistance and even passive ultimate generation simply by taking damage. The real problem with Imperial's poor performance is tied heavily to its supposed niche as the 'cap race,' boasting nothing particularly spectacular save for massive HP and stamina. As of Live, it is nothing truly impressive when it comes to uniqueness, but holds up due to its robust scaling.

However, with the removal of race-locked percentage based bonuses, Imperial as a race has fallen drastically behind everything and everyone else in terms of its numerical bonuses, and complete divesting of racial identity. As of its current incarnation on PTS, its only claim to fame is its 2000HP, which is higher than any other race's HP bonus, and of course its hybrid regeneration of 333 to every single resource.

Its former advantage of having 10% increased stamina, now normalised to 2000 increased base stamina cap is now a benefit shared by nearly every other stamina race - including Bosmer, Redguard, and as per the recent update: Orc, and even practically Dunmer as well at 1875. Of every race, Imperial holds the highest HP bonus of all its contemporaries at 2k more HP, compared to Argonian & Nord at 1k more HP, and Khajiit at 850 as per PTS 4.3.2.

The cracks and racial imbalance really shows when you look at the numerical weighting of stats compared to the other races. Take for instance, the current iteration of Dunmer as per the current 4.3.2 model:

[ +1875 Magicka
+1875 Stamina
+258 Weapon Damage
+258 Spell Damage
+2310 Flame Damage Resistance & Immunity to 'Burning' effect]

Imperial, in comparison, has:

[ +2000 HP
+2000 Stamina
+Regenerates 333 HP/Stamina/Magicka every 5 seconds on direct damage
+5% Reduced Block/Bash Cost]

I will state before I continue that I hold no ill-will or negative criticism of Dunmer race (or any race) as a whole, and using it simply as a crux of discussion.The current argument so goes, that Imperial is a tanking race, and needs/deserves no such help in having boosts to weapon/spell damage, and that the sustain from the updated Red Diamond passive is justifiable. Whether or not this is valid, becomes particularly absurd when you look at the sheer numerical disparity between Dunmer and Imperial, to the point that Dunmer would probably make a superior tank in that they take far less damage from the most common elemental damage in the game, very comparable stamina caps (a difference of 2000 and 1875 is small enough to be considered insignificant at a value of 125 points), and even higher magicka to assist with utility abilities (i.e. Dragonknight chains).

Dunmer self-sustain and healing is also arguably superior by virtue of their Weapon Damage and Spell Damage, by which Vigor/any magicka heal with exception of Health Cap based healing, scales by. Imperial's 'superiority' as a tank hinges on its HP bulk, and that its block cost is a very small (additive, multiplicative? Need clarification in future edits) 5% bonus which may stack with Sturdy traits, CP's, and Class/Weapon passives. Bash is so conditional that 5% reduction in its activation will barely be felt as much as a permanent boon such as Flame Damage Resistance.

From an external point of view, the amount of statistical weighting of Dunmer, tremendously exceeds that of Imperial. According to rough damage scaling ratios, every 10.5 stam/mag = 1 WD/SD. By this logic, Dunmer has effectively 1875 stamina... with 2709 stamina on top. Normalising the weapon/spell damage into raw comparative resources has us the following summary stats:

[ +4584 Magicka
+4584 Stamina
+2310 Flame Damage Resistance & Immunity to 'Burning' effect]

Dunmer thus holds a statistical total of 9168 stats, which is a colossal difference between Imperial which has a statistical total of 4000 stats, of which HP is weighted far less than Stamina/Magicka. Naysayers may argue that Dunmer have traded their raw destructive power in exchange for receiving zero sustain passives. By similar principle, Argonian has an even tinier statistical total of 2000 stats (+1000 magicka, +1000HP), with a very albeit conditional sustain attached to potion consumption.

I deeply welcome both ZOS employees, and you, my fellow players to continue contributing to the discussion and actually promote *true* balance between races, not just in numerical functionality and freedom of unique playstyles, but to ensure that the reworked races are also reflective of their authentic lore. I am curious as to hear your thoughts on this topic of racial rework too! Forgive me for the word wall!

AU | NA-PC Beta veteran since 2014. Dies to 999+ latency.
  • WikiMeister
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    I will take into account my discussion focuses chiefly upon flat, numerical stats, rather than confounding variables which affect in-game mechanics, i.e. Weapon/Spell Critical, Ulti gen, penetration, roleplayability etc. In any case, I wish to bring a lot more exposure to the races which are truly suffering as a result of this PTS, particularly Imperial, Argonian, and in some degrees, Bosmer. Objectively, Orc, Dunmer, Altmer, Breton, and Redguard are in very powerful positions in both PvE and PvP scenes.
    AU | NA-PC Beta veteran since 2014. Dies to 999+ latency.
  • Thevampirenight
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    This is the change or changes I suggested in a thread I just made on pts forums.


    Imperial should be a jack of all trades there is a reason why they have been running successful empires. Now this might make imperials powerful given they are not very good at least a lot of players think that. They should be buffed to be the best jack of all trades stamina, health and magicka. This is a pay to play race they should be worth the money invested into them. This is They should be good or the best not the worst race.
    2000 max Magicka, 2000, Max Stamina 2000 max health
    When you attack with a spell or weapon you restore say like 780 magicka, stamina, health every four seconds. 200 spell power, 200 weapon damage less then Dunmer and Orc but make them a close second or third compared to them in the process. Removal of blockbash thing as that is not needed. 10 percent more gold found.
    Edited by Thevampirenight on February 6, 2019 10:03AM
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • WikiMeister
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    10 percent more gold found.

    Imperial for #1 crafting race, complete with free Imperial motif. :D

    But seriously speaking, if they were to properly reflect Imperial in a lore-friendly fashion (a nod towards Nibenese battlemages, and Colovian warriors), I greatly welcome giving Imperial 2k to every single resource like a walking Shacklebreaker as a race, and hybrid sustain (900HP/700'ish stamina/magicka) every few seconds on strike, and I'd consider it pretty good balance as they'd reach an acceptable numerical cap, while having very unique means of replenishing resources in any combat situation. I wouldn't mind keeping that flavour bonus of 5% block/bash reduction even with these bonuses though, as a reference to the Legion's Ruby Ranks.
    AU | NA-PC Beta veteran since 2014. Dies to 999+ latency.
  • sionIV
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    I mentioned it in a thread of my own. ZoS measured the races based on...

    2. Equalize the overall power that each race provides by using our set bonus efficiency system, which compares the total amount of power that a bonus provides under equal terms.

    So I don't fully understand how the Dunmer was balanced with the Imperial, and then afterwards get such a raise in attributes. Same can be said for the Orc. Some races have a lot more 'power' than others.
  • Thevampirenight
    Thevampirenight
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    10 percent more gold found.

    Imperial for #1 crafting race, complete with free Imperial motif. :D

    But seriously speaking, if they were to properly reflect Imperial in a lore-friendly fashion (a nod towards Nibenese battlemages, and Colovian warriors), I greatly welcome giving Imperial 2k to every single resource like a walking Shacklebreaker as a race, and hybrid sustain (900HP/700'ish stamina/magicka) every few seconds on strike, and I'd consider it pretty good balance as they'd reach an acceptable numerical cap, while having very unique means of replenishing resources in any combat situation. I wouldn't mind keeping that flavour bonus of 5% block/bash reduction even with these bonuses though, as a reference to the Legion's Ruby Ranks.

    Well yeah I think my passive rework idea for them would work good. Now this is imperials for crying out loud. In eso I think they have been the pariahs something that has been said to be for the orcs lore wise but I think Orcs might get better treatment from the player base then the Imperials in their current state. Giving them a jack of all traits stance would be beneficial for them. Maybe even make them worth the money so players will buy them. If they don't have good passives I don't think a lot of players bother unless they are fellow roleplayers and I do have an imperial. I did buy the race many years ago.
    Edited by Thevampirenight on February 6, 2019 10:12AM
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • IronWooshu
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    sionIV wrote: »
    I mentioned it in a thread of my own. ZoS measured the races based on...

    2. Equalize the overall power that each race provides by using our set bonus efficiency system, which compares the total amount of power that a bonus provides under equal terms.

    So I don't fully understand how the Dunmer was balanced with the Imperial, and then afterwards get such a raise in attributes. Same can be said for the Orc. Some races have a lot more 'power' than others.
    It seems sustain has a bigger bearing on their set bonus score than flat stats do.
  • WikiMeister
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    Frankly, I just want to know what the top races put into their food and drink. I'll order a hundred. :D

    Outside of Imperial though, I've been trawling everywhere else, and I see a melee going on with Dunmer/Altmer players, and Redguard/Orc players for the position of BiS stam/magDPS. It's wild. Little to no talk going about the alleged 'tanks.'
    AU | NA-PC Beta veteran since 2014. Dies to 999+ latency.
  • WikiMeister
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    I truly wish ZOS could explain their rationale with regard to how they've allocated the races the combat bonuses and stats alike they've been given. Or even provide a ratio of how much a point of regeneration or skill/ability/action cost reduction weighs to a flat stat.
    Edited by WikiMeister on February 6, 2019 10:19AM
    AU | NA-PC Beta veteran since 2014. Dies to 999+ latency.
  • sionIV
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    I truly wish ZOS could explain their rationale with regard to how they've allocated the races the combat bonuses and stats alike they've been given. Or even provide a ratio of how much a point of regeneration or skill/ability/action cost reduction weighs to a flat stat.

    Set bonus

    129 Weapon Damage
    1096 Stamina/Magicka
    1206 Health
    129 Stamina/Magicka/Health Recovery
    4% Healing Taken/Done
    2975 Physical/Spell Resistance

    "The system works by looking at the total power a bonus provides and comparing it to a bonus from a 2-4 item set. For example, if we have 2000 Stamina, we would compare that to a 2 piece value of Stamina, which is 1096. The final result would be 2000/1096 = 1.82 set bonus efficiency. We did this for each bonus a race provides so they would all be roughly equal in the power they provide."

    "We decided to find a healthy standard for total racial power provided and used that budget (roughly 6.5 set bonuses) for the power that each passive would grant. We used the previous version of Redguard and Altmer as our target goal. Note that some of our hybrid races will be a slightly higher value, since their power is divided. Most of the races received buffs to reach this figure."

    Following this, the Imperial would gain 3.64 set bonus from 2000 stamina/health. This means that the Red Diamond passive stands for up to 3 set bonuses.

    Dunmer would get 4.0 set bonus from Weapon/Spell Damage, an additional 3.4 from Stamina/Magicka, and that's not even taking into consideration their other bonus. I'm tyring to figure out how the Dunmer is 'slightly' higher.
    Edited by sionIV on February 6, 2019 10:30AM
  • WikiMeister
    WikiMeister
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    Curiously, ZOS has never defined which races precisely were the 'hybrid' races. Some races are very obviously skewed to one of the primary resources, i.e. Redguard for Stamina, or Altmer for Magicka. Even so that logic of stating '... our hybrid races will be a slightly higher value,' seems very flawed, particularly if you take a single look at Argonian's pitiful caps compared to Dunmer, which they've very clearly highlighted as almost to say 'look at me, I am hybrid!' with its dual stat and damage bonuses.

    With so little time left in the PTS phase however, I shudder to think what will happen if this disparity in racial effectiveness is given the greenlight to go live, with 'BiS' races still remaining pretty well cemented in their places. Redguards will still dominate PvE stamina DPS realms. Orcs will still crush skulls and souls as PvP stamina DD's. Bretons still are the perennial magicka resource economists. On the flipside, races which were formerly reliant, and are still mired in the past of percentile bonuses will simply not hold up against the other races' unique, and very applicable bonuses.
    AU | NA-PC Beta veteran since 2014. Dies to 999+ latency.
  • rexagamemnon
    rexagamemnon
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    @ZOS_RichLambert please consider the Colovian/nibeney racial passive idea
  • Uryel
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    IronWooshu wrote: »
    It seems sustain has a bigger bearing on their set bonus score than flat stats do.

    Which, by itself, and with other things, reveals the hidden mindset behind the changes.

    Sustain is only an issue in top level content, such as, I suppose, vet dungeons, trials, and PvP. When you're going wit ha friend in a public dungron, sustain is never an issue. Flat numbers matter more, as you don't want to run dry before that 2-diamonds boss is dead, but with a high maximum value, you'll get to it easily. Replenishing those ressources only matters in drawn-out battles, like world bosses, and even that hardly matters. As of today, my Nord stam sorcerer can tank world bosses pretty safely, and he doesn't have any sustain ability.

    So, evidence #1 : changes are geared toward top-level content, which means the majority of the player base has no interest into them.

    But then, there are a few lore-breaking, not-so-friendly changes that completely break gameplay for some specific archetypes, and they reek of PvP. I'm talking, for instance, of the removal of stealth from the Bosmers. It makes no sense lore-wise, and the replacement bonus, the stealth detection bonus, has no use whatsoever in PvE, from the own words of the devs themselves. Yes, stealth is useless in most top level content, and maybe stealth detection is useful in PvP, but there's Magelight for that, and it's far superior in range and efficiency than the measly racial bonus Bosmers get instead... But then stealth is useful for non-competitive players, as a way to play a thief, as a fundamental lore element to the Bosmers. But hey, it's not a problem, race change to Khajiit, and damn be the identity of a character you leveled and tuned for years. But lore-wise, making Bretons second to Nords in terms of magic resistance or removing the fire damage buff from the Dunmers make no sense either.

    So, evidence #2 : PvP, and specially Cyrodiil, is used to "balance" a race by replaceing a mildly useful trait by one completely useless in PvE, and evidence #3 : they believe people have no attachment to theiur characters and are only interested in stats, which might be true for the minority of competitive playersd but is doubtful when it comes to the average crowd.

    Considering eveidence 1, 2 and3, I have to conclude that the maths team believes everyone is a hardcore competitive players that care only for stats and PvP and cares very little about their character's identity, and has no regard whatsoever for the lore, despite their claims for the opposite. Hence my nickname of "maths team", since they crunch numbers and forget the gameplay.
  • MartiniDaniels
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    sionIV wrote: »
    I mentioned it in a thread of my own. ZoS measured the races based on...

    2. Equalize the overall power that each race provides by using our set bonus efficiency system, which compares the total amount of power that a bonus provides under equal terms.

    So I don't fully understand how the Dunmer was balanced with the Imperial, and then afterwards get such a raise in attributes. Same can be said for the Orc. Some races have a lot more 'power' than others.

    You understand that all this "set bonuses" should be connected to role? That extra magicka is useless for PVE stam dps? USELESS, completely, there is no difference between 9k magicka stamdps and 30k magicka stamdps. That weapon/spell damage stat is mostly useless for tanks, cause tank self-heal with %HP spells?
    Imperial is pretty good now, better then any elf that's for sure.
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    Uryel wrote: »
    IronWooshu wrote: »
    It seems sustain has a bigger bearing on their set bonus score than flat stats do.

    Considering eveidence 1, 2 and3, I have to conclude that the maths team believes everyone is a hardcore competitive players that care only for stats and PvP and cares very little about their character's identity, and has no regard whatsoever for the lore, despite their claims for the opposite. Hence my nickname of "maths team", since they crunch numbers and forget the gameplay.

    +100500
    I'm sure it's like that:
    1. They asked top-PVE representative - what do you need? They answered, ugh we need more horns and buff nords they are useless in PVE on live - granted. Nord is BiS tank on PTS, and argonian and imperial were buffed in version2 to be competitive tanks, probably the only good thing about all this new passives;
    2. They asked top-PVP representative - what do you need? They answered - we are tired of gank snipers and troll king health recovery builds - granted. Health recovery %bonus is no more, extra damage from stealth too. After first version of patches nord/orc/khajiit health recovery crowd started to cry, so they buffed some of them. Bosmers were silent with 20% speed bonus but they were ditched at version2 with pointless roll dodge penetration, so now they are whining like never before. Redguards got snare resistance as compensation of orc/cat buff.
    3. Finally - most important. They asked sales department - what do you want - they answered - make khajiits best in max popular role (magdps) to support Elsweyr sales, and turn tables on all pve meta to sell adventure packs - granted - previous BiS races are nerfed in PVE to the last picks and will be useful only in PVP, probably.
  • sionIV
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    sionIV wrote: »
    I mentioned it in a thread of my own. ZoS measured the races based on...

    2. Equalize the overall power that each race provides by using our set bonus efficiency system, which compares the total amount of power that a bonus provides under equal terms.

    So I don't fully understand how the Dunmer was balanced with the Imperial, and then afterwards get such a raise in attributes. Same can be said for the Orc. Some races have a lot more 'power' than others.

    You understand that all this "set bonuses" should be connected to role? That extra magicka is useless for PVE stam dps? USELESS, completely, there is no difference between 9k magicka stamdps and 30k magicka stamdps. That weapon/spell damage stat is mostly useless for tanks, cause tank self-heal with %HP spells?
    Imperial is pretty good now, better then any elf that's for sure.

    None of my tanks heal with a %HP spell. That Magicka is useful for Magicka DD, Healing and Tanking. It's useful for 75% of the playstyles. The 258 Spell/Weapon Damage is useful for every single playstyle. It improves healing for both healers and tanks, it improves damage for Stamina, Magicka, healing and tanks as well.

    Imperial is better than any elf?

    Imperial
    - Worst race for healing
    - Worst race for Magicka DD
    - 6th place in Stamina DD
    - 3th place in Tanking.

    Dunmer are top 3 in both Stamina DD and Magicka DD.
    Aldmer is top 3 in Magicka DD and healing.
    Orc is the best Stamina DD with these changes.
    Bosmer has flaws like the Imperial and Nord, but it's still a much better choice for stamina DD than the Imperial.

    Imperial is the WORST race in the game with these changes. Nord is the second worst race in the game.
    Edited by sionIV on February 6, 2019 6:39PM
  • mb10
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    333 every 5 seconds is no where near good enough tbh

    Could make it on par with argonians getting 4000 every 45 seconds from a potion
    Making it 444 every 5 seconds so much better

    Imperials have also had some great mages in their lore so I think a Max Magicka stat would be great
  • Kidgangster101
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    Again I have said it everywhere we should be the jack of all trades. Not be the best at anything but be good at them all.

    2000 health
    2000 magica
    2000 stamina
    Red diamond every 5 seconds when you deal damage you restore 500 magic stam and health

    It gives us the top stats needed to help push DPS and gives us Regen for whatever role we are. But it doesn't push us over the top as we don't get very high sustain and we don't get high damage or a critical boost or cost reduction. We are simply going to be an average race.
  • Jimmy
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    I've been expressing my displeasure with the disgusting treatment ZOS is giving the Imperial race.

    As I've said over and over again, Imperial is now the race of beginners. It reminds of the gear set "of the trainee".

    I really hope ZOS gives Imperial it's uniqueness back. Imperial is embarrassing now.
    PC NA
    @SkruDe
  • Austinseph1
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    As far as a dps race goes hybrid builds even utilizing both bonuses on a dunmer can’t compete with a pure mag or Stam build. This makes basically +1875 and the +258 dmg and the rest is just utility
  • sionIV
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    As far as a dps race goes hybrid builds even utilizing both bonuses on a dunmer can’t compete with a pure mag or Stam build. This makes basically +1875 and the +258 dmg and the rest is just utility

    They're top 3 in both Magicka and Stamina DPS. Even if they don't run a hybrid build, they're still stronger than races that focus on a specific attribute (Bosmer, Imperial, etc).
  • Jimmy
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    As far as a dps race goes hybrid builds even utilizing both bonuses on a dunmer can’t compete with a pure mag or Stam build. This makes basically +1875 and the +258 dmg and the rest is just utility
    You don't get it.
    sionIV wrote: »
    As far as a dps race goes hybrid builds even utilizing both bonuses on a dunmer can’t compete with a pure mag or Stam build. This makes basically +1875 and the +258 dmg and the rest is just utility

    They're top 3 in both Magicka and Stamina DPS. Even if they don't run a hybrid build, they're still stronger than races that focus on a specific attribute (Bosmer, Imperial, etc).
    This guy gets it.
    PC NA
    @SkruDe
  • Stx
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    I dont hate the imperial racials but red diamond definitely needs a buff I think. 333 isnt enough.
  • zaria
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    Curiously, ZOS has never defined which races precisely were the 'hybrid' races. Some races are very obviously skewed to one of the primary resources, i.e. Redguard for Stamina, or Altmer for Magicka. Even so that logic of stating '... our hybrid races will be a slightly higher value,' seems very flawed, particularly if you take a single look at Argonian's pitiful caps compared to Dunmer, which they've very clearly highlighted as almost to say 'look at me, I am hybrid!' with its dual stat and damage bonuses.

    With so little time left in the PTS phase however, I shudder to think what will happen if this disparity in racial effectiveness is given the greenlight to go live, with 'BiS' races still remaining pretty well cemented in their places. Redguards will still dominate PvE stamina DPS realms. Orcs will still crush skulls and souls as PvP stamina DD's. Bretons still are the perennial magicka resource economists. On the flipside, races which were formerly reliant, and are still mired in the past of percentile bonuses will simply not hold up against the other races' unique, and very applicable bonuses.
    Have a strong feeling they looked at the player base, think lots of Dunmer and Khajiit select race first. Argonians too but they are pretty hybrid with the huge sustain.
    Way more Dunmer stamina builds than Altmer. More Khajiit magic builds than Orc ones.
    Add that its pretty established in lore and games.
    However hybrids don't work well in ESO, 1K magic+ 1K stamina is not 2K power this is also reflected in sets.

    Both Dunmer and Khajiit looks very good, being able to switch between magic or stamina builds if meta changes or you are bored is an buff well worth 500 damage on an 60K parse.

    And no meta did not change much. Waiting for PTS tests.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • WikiMeister
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    zaria wrote: »
    Have a strong feeling they looked at the player base, think lots of Dunmer and Khajiit select race first. Argonians too but they are pretty hybrid with the huge sustain.
    Way more Dunmer stamina builds than Altmer. More Khajiit magic builds than Orc ones.
    Add that its pretty established in lore and games.
    However hybrids don't work well in ESO, 1K magic+ 1K stamina is not 2K power this is also reflected in sets.

    Both Dunmer and Khajiit looks very good, being able to switch between magic or stamina builds if meta changes or you are bored is an buff well worth 500 damage on an 60K parse.

    And no meta did not change much. Waiting for PTS tests.

    It's actually somewhat laughable that the whole notion of the Racial Rework was to 'break the meta' but only served to reinforce it for the races which were not lacking to begin with, while some 'weaker' or 'mediocre' races were either completely neglected or worsened as a result of the changes in comparative performance. What I have appreciated most from the PTS so far is the justice they did for Khajiit players, granting them the capacity to play the best of both magicka and stamina specs.

    The excessive buffing of Orc (while needed given their proto form in PTS 4.3.0), exemplifies a rather poor sense of calibration when gauging it with the benefits the other races have/lack. Before ZOS execute anything, I would greatly appreciate if they summed, and tallied up the numerical totals (or set bonus 'budget,' as they put in their own words), and really put the races side by side with the other.
    AU | NA-PC Beta veteran since 2014. Dies to 999+ latency.
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