Gilvoth wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Shhhhhh....

exactly, because eventually everyone is going to be unable to do damage in pvp.

people are making threads every time they are killed with skills they dont use and make it look like they are overpowered, when infact they are not overpowered at all.
this is how the game will be destroyed if you guys keep making nerf threads.

please see the truth about combat before eso is no longer running.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456630/completely-over-powered-this-is-totaly-way-too-much-damage/p1

You mean mob rule isnt a good thing?

@MalagenR you said heavy armor is getting nerfed? Source? Link? I’m extremely interested.

Shouldn't we be slipping on ice, so, like, I mean, gaining Minor Expedition while in a Frost Blockade?

If they made a slipping-on-ice animation for this and put it in the game for Jester's Festival I would die.

Mic drop.

Ankael07 wrote: »

Its an extremely situational skill that has direct counters and it cannot even be seen by the caster's allies. Slot a counter skill or dont complain

The counter skill is Shuffle with a 2.5s duration vs. the 8s on Frost Wall.

Do you genuinely believe people haven't already tried that?

What about moving out of it? You’re digging in to prove a point.

Yes it does damage, yes it snares, yes you can easily move out of it, no it’s not overpowered. You’re making it sound like any two abilities should be directly comparable. Please explain to me why anyone would use an ice staff is ice blockade didn’t snare.

You’re asking for a cc line (ice destro staves) to be nerfed down to be useless. What’s next, complaints that sword and shields are better for tanking?

TheYKcid wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

The snare is perfectly fine. Caltrops does a 30% snare in a massive area with even more damage.

This is absolutely not true though, @iCaliban.

The area of Caltrops is π(8²) = 201 m²
Area of Frost Blockade is 18*12 = 216 m²
Frost Blockade actually covers 7.5% more area than Caltrops.

Caltrops doesn't do more damage, either. Here's the scaling coefficients for each skill:

Caltrops:
0.02146 Stamina + 0.22553 WeaponDamage + 2.81704

Frost Blockade:
0.02503 Magicka + 0.26218 SpellDamage - 1.18332

Basically, given the same stats (mag vs. stam where appropriate), Frost Blockade will deal 16.2% more damage per tick, compared to Caltrops. While the Razor 'Trops morph does have an initial direct damage that does about the same as one tick of Blockade, this is nullified by the fact that Blockade's initial tick happens at t=0.

To summarize, Frost Blockade does more damage, has a larger AoE, and persistently snares for 2x the amount vs. Caltrops.
AND it immobilizes, which is something Trops has no answer to.

It even costs 270 resources less.

I'm glad you raised this comparison because it's one of many good examples of why Frost Blockade is objectively overloaded with effects.

Edit: linking this post to the OP, since it's a very pertinent comparison

I made sweet love to this post, brb need to change my pants.

Sexiest theorycrafter PCNA.

I'd argue that mag typically has very good snares built-into their class toolkits, attached to already-powerful skills that would be slotted one way or another.

NB has Cripple, Plar has Vamp's Bane, DK has, well, everything.

Warden, while not as spammable as the others, has Perma, an extremely strong and mobile snare that decisively wins many group engagements. As a bonus, also hard to counterpressure due to major protection.

The only mag class that doesn't readily have access to a snare is magsorc. And as an msorc main, I'll fully vouch that this is balanced design, as Sorc has sufficient mobility to justify not having additional countermobility tools (contrasted with a magDK, for instance which requires the control to offset its own slowness).

A big issue with the mobility situation post-Murk is that too many good skills still have free snares attached to them, while sources of speed and root/snare immunity are weaker than ever. Frost Wall is one of the worst offenders in this regard.

TheYKcid wrote: »

Warden, while not as spammable as the others, has Perma, an extremely strong and mobile snare that decisively wins many group engagements. As a bonus, also hard to counterpressure due to major protection.

I'll take getting hit with Permafrost over Dawnbreaker any day, and twice on Sundays. It also hardly counts as a snare in the context that we're talking about; it'd be like removing Rune Prison and all stun effects on Destruction Clench/Reach, Streak, Atronach, and whatever else I'm forgetting, then saying your Mag Sorc still had a stun because of Meteor.

Stam classes can perma snare, even though they have spammable gap closers (one of which snares 60%), the only thing really comparable for Magicka classes are the aforementioned Cripple and Vampire's Bane, both of which can be reflected. I'll reiterate - the root is the problem, not the snare. Your suggestion would just give Stam even more of a BG advantage than they already have.

I understand everyone hates snares. I really do, because i hate them too. Frost is just lumped with snares and to be honest, they are the only thing keeping frost alive and relevant. Via ONE SKILL! Because everything else exclusive to frost, is garbage! But snares are very strong and irritating especially in group scenarios where a wall gets thrown down on you and you just don't move anymore, so this skill does need a rework. at least, the mass majority sees it that way.

We have discussed reducing the snare to around 30% and removing the immobilise upon chilled. instead, adding an execute effect on chilled enemies dealing up to 50% more damage to chilled enemies below 50% health as a quick example. While this change does hurt frost tanks, we also recognise that they DO exist and need a little more help too. so this would be lumped with other frost staff updates.

staff suggestions at the moment are:

*Icy Rage: rework current effect to reduce it's base cost by 14% (250 to 215) to put it in line with Stormy Rage and Fiery Rage.

*Wall of Frost:
like suggested before, reduce snare from 60% to 30% but add an execute mechanic on chilled enemies. or perhaps another armor reduction debuff to benefit both dps and tanks as they just lost some helpful control.

*Frost Clench (not Frost Reach):
reduce base cost or increase base damage by 20% to synergise better with vDSA staff and to make clench a little more worth morphing into. worth noting that immobilise and taunt conflict with one-another as they wont run over into your group's AoEs. taunt on clench may a popular suggestion but the effects are contradictory in nature. I mean, you could put the taunt on here if you removed the immobilise. Maybe frost clench could gain -36% block cost and +20% damage blocked while slotted instead, so that frost's ancient knowledge could be reworked. food for thought. frost clench is not used at the moment. so it wouldn't be missed.

Elemental Susceptibility:
Instead of current effect, add a taunt and major fracture to make it destruction staff's pierce armor. reduce duration to 10 seconds or less to justify huge benefit of 28m range and no cost. could even add cost. worth noting that elemental drain will remain untouched. also worth noting that shock staff gains access to this.

Tri Focus:
(re)move taunt (see Elemental Susceptibility).
add minor breach to enemy hit with heavy attack to benefit group, and to benefit yourself if you're a frost DPS. make the damage shield 2 or even 3 times as powerful.

*Pulsar:
add 2.5 second aoe immobilise. (remove mangle to keep for later?). adds a non-class AoE immobilise with a decent radius. 6m. worth noting that shock staff gains access to this.


(*): still in early concept stages. may change.

I will make a trade, mags frost wall for stams bleed damage.

TheYKcid wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

The snare is perfectly fine. Caltrops does a 30% snare in a massive area with even more damage.

This is absolutely not true though, @iCaliban.

The area of Caltrops is π(8²) = 201 m²
Area of Frost Blockade is 18*12 = 216 m²
Frost Blockade actually covers 7.5% more area than Caltrops.

Caltrops doesn't do more damage, either. Here's the scaling coefficients for each skill:

Caltrops:
0.02146 Stamina + 0.22553 WeaponDamage + 2.81704

Frost Blockade:
0.02503 Magicka + 0.26218 SpellDamage - 1.18332

Basically, given the same stats (mag vs. stam where appropriate), Frost Blockade will deal 16.2% more damage per tick, compared to Caltrops. While the Razor 'Trops morph does have an initial direct damage that does about the same as one tick of Blockade, this is nullified by the fact that Blockade's initial tick happens at t=0.

To summarize, Frost Blockade does more damage, has a larger AoE, and persistently snares for 2x the amount vs. Caltrops.
AND it immobilizes, which is something Trops has no answer to.

It even costs 270 resources less.

I'm glad you raised this comparison because it's one of many good examples of why Frost Blockade is objectively overloaded with effects.

Edit: linking this post to the OP, since it's a very pertinent comparison

Caltrops lasts 50% longer, which means it does more total damage per cast, costs less to sustain, and has 28m placement.

Razor snares for 10% more than Blockade for 3 seconds, then Ice Blockade snares for 2x the amount for 5 seconds, at which point Razor continues to persist for another 4 seconds, while Frost needs to be recast.

Oh and slotting an Ice Staff sucks compared to slotting a Lightning or Fire staff (you lose either 8% AoE or 8% ST damage, and the heavy attacks are slow and painful), whereas Caltrops are open to anyone.

edit, NVM getting Radius and Diameter mixed up.

MalagenR wrote: »

I don't think it's worth it to continue to argue with him. He's basically ignored the facts regarding how stamina is overperforming to complain about the one skill that is a direct counter to that over performance.

I think it's worth it to have meaningful discussions.

My big point is that I don't think you can single out WoE as being OP, while looking at Caltrops and thinking they are A-OK.

If it were up to me, Frost WoE would be a 40% snare, tops, and Caltrops would not have the 70% snare at all. I also think the "immobilize on chill" effect should be replaced with a movement based damage DoT, but then people would just complain about annoying DoTs all day, so I'm not sure there is any winning of the popularity contest that is the "nerf all the things that annoy me" forums.

danno8 wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I don't think it's worth it to continue to argue with him. He's basically ignored the facts regarding how stamina is overperforming to complain about the one skill that is a direct counter to that over performance.

I think it's worth it to have meaningful discussions.

My big point is that I don't think you can single out WoE as being OP, while looking at Caltrops and thinking they are A-OK.

If it were up to me, Frost WoE would be a 40% snare, tops, and Caltrops would not have the 70% snare at all. I also think the "immobilize on chill" effect should be replaced with a movement based damage DoT, but then people would just complain about annoying DoTs all day, so I'm not sure there is any winning of the popularity contest that is the "nerf all the things that annoy me" forums.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's perfectly fine the way it is. Like I said, the game should be balanced around group PVP, and frost wall of elements has literally zero impact on people if you have a healer in your group and you focus fire.

Even in a hypothetical group where you are running 1 healer and 3 stam DPS - there are enough stam snares / KD's so that if you're focus firing, regardless of whether or not you're standing in Frost WOE you should be able to kill your target.

The only thing overperforming is the stamina nuking that occurs from Permafrost, there's no reason for a skill to snare, stun, and provide group Major Protection. It's totally ridiculous. They should have to press the synergy button to get the buff, period.