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ZOS has nerfed Altmer on PTS - Currently tied with Dunmer for lowest magicka DPS
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Ohtimbar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Apparently even game balance is at the mercy of the almighty RNG. I can't think of another explanation for some of these ridiculous changes. What a drag.forever stuck in combat3 -
warabi✭✭✭Love the drama. Maybe just do away with the racials and replace them with only flavour, like the argonian swimming bonus they already have, nords get drunk from any drink or potion they use, wood elves get a bonus to stealing success chance etc..etc..
It's obviously hard enough to balance class/guild/weapon skills, let alone the added complication of various racial passives.
That's what I was hoping they'd do, but I suppose that's far too logical.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IzzyStardust wrote: »Illuvatarr wrote: »I think people are over reacting. Look at the Altmer racial passives/abilities. Change your gear up accordingly to accommodate the change. Altmer should still be top dps with right gear combination. You can’t compare it to other races in same gear sets as the racials pretty clearly point out which gear sets to use.
Whatever - they just gave altmer stam regen.
Unbelievable.
It was decided to make it a minor utility buff instead of just removing the original buff all together. This was done due to the race overperforming. How people miss this was a good thing is beyond me.
The race was very clearly underperforming in actual testing.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 5, 2019 10:38PM5 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭let's make something clear; and I think it's something people don't realise or don't want to realise.
The purpose of these changes isn't to "nerf" or "buff", it's to fundementally change what choosing your race means for you as a player in the first place. Currently, there are defined "best" races for certain roles, ZoS wants to change that, or at least mitigate it. I agree with this philosophy; it's something long overdue in this cancerous meta we find ourselves in this game. unfortunately, I don't think they're implementing this philosophy as well as they could be, but that's a whole other conversation.
Anyway, stop this. Stop this mentality of "this is being nerfed" or "now X is the best thing for X", it's not the point of these changes. Or it's not supposed to be, anyway.
They took a sledgehammer to Altmer and Dunmer DPS while buffing Breton and Khajiit. They very clearly wanted to knock Altmer and Dunmer out of the meta so people would buy race change tokens/ARAA upgrade.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 5, 2019 10:40PM7 -
Zathras✭✭✭✭✭
But this is their philosophy, and my original point is that everyone seems to be unaware or willfully ignorant of it.
I agree with your posts, and I happen to like the changes overall. I do think a lot of people are aware of what they are attempting to do, but..
There is this.That's what I said, yes. I agree they aren't following their supposed philosophy as well as they should be, and I share your frustrations in that regard.
No matter what they do, one race is going to be perceived as weaker, and another as stronger. Even if it is 1%. Those are the meta people, and unfortunately they are the ones flaming the forums.
Thing is, before the proposed changes, there were weaker and stronger racials (and thus races) for various builds as well. I understand what they are doing, as do a lot of people, but the shift from perceived strength to weakness in some cases isn't a battle easily won, if at all.
I just hope they stick to their philosophy, and ignore this silliness. It really is a storm in a teacup.
For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen. - Douglas Adams
It is a rare mind indeed that can render the hitherto non-existent blindingly obvious. The cry 'I could have thought of that' is a very popular and misleading one, for the fact is that they didn't, and a very significant and revealing fact it is too. - Douglas Adams2 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »let's make something clear; and I think it's something people don't realise or don't want to realise.
The purpose of these changes isn't to "nerf" or "buff", it's to fundementally change what choosing your race means for you as a player in the first place. Currently, there are defined "best" races for certain roles, ZoS wants to change that, or at least mitigate it. I agree with this philosophy; it's something long overdue in this cancerous meta we find ourselves in this game. unfortunately, I don't think they're implementing this philosophy as well as they could be, but that's a whole other conversation.
Anyway, stop this. Stop this mentality of "this is being nerfed" or "now X is the best thing for X", it's not the point of these changes. Or it's not supposed to be, anyway.
So you're going to be ignorant of the facts. It's a nerf to some and huge buff for ZOS wallet. Many players have been playing the same toon for years, not because of META but because they actually RP as Altmer or Bosmer. A lot of PVE players as well play Altmer for the aesthetic and lore behind the passive. The way they continue to nerf and buff is around PVP which is only a small portion of their player base but is the loudest to cry.
@dcam86b14_ESO What are you talking about? Did you even read my post?
You're exhibiting the exact behaviour I was alluding to. You just jumped immediately to "I only care about how this affects me individually", rather than how these changes can affect the game and, by extension, the whole playerbase.
The new design philosophy is good. It's long overdue. If ZoS were handling it better, it would mean choosing your race isn't such a game changing decision at endgame; every race would be able to perform certain roles and bring their own unique twist to it.
That seems to be too big of a concept for a lot of people though, they only see the short term; the "I do 1% less dps now I quit the game" or, as you say, "this small statistic is the only thing retaining my sense of immersion and due to the change to it my suspension of disbelief has been completely shattered"
The new design philsophy isn't good. They are explicitly targetting the current meta classes and knocking them out of the meta. They are not striving for balance.
Altmer were the second worst magicka DPS class before these nerfs, but the gap was very small. ZOS nerfed them specifically to widen the gap and force people to race change. This current "philosophy" is nothing more than a cash grab.10 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »IzzyStardust wrote: »Illuvatarr wrote: »I think people are over reacting. Look at the Altmer racial passives/abilities. Change your gear up accordingly to accommodate the change. Altmer should still be top dps with right gear combination. You can’t compare it to other races in same gear sets as the racials pretty clearly point out which gear sets to use.
Whatever - they just gave altmer stam regen.
Unbelievable.
It was decided to make it a minor utility buff instead of just removing the original buff all together. This was done due to the race overperforming. How people miss this was a good thing is beyond me.
The race was very clearly underperforming in actual testing.
LOL right.... you would have us believe Zen knowingly took an underperforming race and made it worse to either sell more race changes tokens or just to maliciously nerf the race, your reasoning is approaching that of parody.
No, it is obvious the race was overperforming which is basically what the Devs said. You really would have every believe instead they are lieing becuase you say so?
Edited by Skwor on February 5, 2019 10:49PM5 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »IzzyStardust wrote: »Illuvatarr wrote: »I think people are over reacting. Look at the Altmer racial passives/abilities. Change your gear up accordingly to accommodate the change. Altmer should still be top dps with right gear combination. You can’t compare it to other races in same gear sets as the racials pretty clearly point out which gear sets to use.
Whatever - they just gave altmer stam regen.
Unbelievable.
It was decided to make it a minor utility buff instead of just removing the original buff all together. This was done due to the race overperforming. How people miss this was a good thing is beyond me.
The race was very clearly underperforming in actual testing.
LOL right.... you would have us believe Zen knowingly took an underperforming race and made it worse to either sell more race changes tokens or just to maliciously nerf the race, your reasoning is approaching that of parody.
No, it is obvious the race was overperforming which is basically what the Devs said. You really would have every believe instead they are lieing becuase you say so?
Show me tests where they are overperformibg.6 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Skwor is alluding to the 5 year over performance of certain races, including Altmer, that made them bis/meta to begin with.
ZOS is breaking the mold with these changes. Its not insidious, its a shake up and a good move for future proofing the product.
The issue is how that retrofits the player base. The solution is discount the ARAA pack, or timed discount on tokens to allow disgruntled players to work out what works best for them.
They've given us free tokens. I'm not sold on ARAA as faction lock doesn't bother me.
However I do see the concern here.Edited by mairwen85 on February 5, 2019 10:57PM4 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Skwor is alluding to the 5 year over performance of certain races, including Altmer, that made them bis/meta to begin with.
ZOS is breaking the mold with these changes. Its not insidious, its a shake up and a good move for future proofing the product.
It's a cash grab. They know that the majority of magicka DDs will need to race change all their characters now.
And that's not even mentioning how egregiously lore-breaking it is.10 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭IzzyStardust wrote: »Illuvatarr wrote: »I think people are over reacting. Look at the Altmer racial passives/abilities. Change your gear up accordingly to accommodate the change. Altmer should still be top dps with right gear combination. You can’t compare it to other races in same gear sets as the racials pretty clearly point out which gear sets to use.
Whatever - they just gave altmer stam regen.
Unbelievable.
It was decided to make it a minor utility buff instead of just removing the original buff all together. This was done due to the race overperforming. How people miss this was a good thing is beyond me.
The problem is after the first round of racial changes Altmer wasn't over performing. All magic classes were pretty close in DPS.
Exactamundo! I am currently a Dunmer templar. Was trying to decide between Khajiit, Breton, and Altmer. Was almost leaning Altmer for the max magicka, spell damage, and a bit of sustain. Seemed balanced. Khajiit-all crit, lower magicka, low sustain, Breton-huge sustain, low spell damage.
I mean, there was a choice to be made. Now, Altmer is dead to me. Lol. And one more thing...why is the passive, that now returns stamina, called “spell recharge?”
Edited by carlos424 on February 5, 2019 11:00PM7 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »@Skwor is alluding to the 5 year over performance of certain races, including Altmer, that made them bis/meta to begin with.
ZOS is breaking the mold with these changes. Its not insidious, its a shake up and a good move for future proofing the product.
It's a cash grab. They know that the majority of magicka DDs will need to race change all their characters now.
And that's not even mentioning how egregiously lore-breaking it is.
I'm just saying what I see in this. I see your argument, I understand it. I felt the same way about dunmer when the changes were first announced. But the more I dissociate from how it affects me personally on 1-2 chars, the more actual benefit I see in what's presented here - - especially with community testing and actual analysis.Edited by mairwen85 on February 5, 2019 11:05PM2 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »IzzyStardust wrote: »Illuvatarr wrote: »I think people are over reacting. Look at the Altmer racial passives/abilities. Change your gear up accordingly to accommodate the change. Altmer should still be top dps with right gear combination. You can’t compare it to other races in same gear sets as the racials pretty clearly point out which gear sets to use.
Whatever - they just gave altmer stam regen.
Unbelievable.
It was decided to make it a minor utility buff instead of just removing the original buff all together. This was done due to the race overperforming. How people miss this was a good thing is beyond me.
The race was very clearly underperforming in actual testing.
LOL right.... you would have us believe Zen knowingly took an underperforming race and made it worse to either sell more race changes tokens or just to maliciously nerf the race, your reasoning is approaching that of parody.
No, it is obvious the race was overperforming which is basically what the Devs said. You really would have every believe instead they are lieing becuase you say so?
Show me tests where they are overperformibg.
We have all seen the posts about tests and parses. I have seen no impartial accurate tests demonstrating the altmer underperforming as you claim. I chose to believe the developers who track internal metrics to determine the effectiveness of the racial changes. Thay have clearly stated they were overperforming.
Why don't you show me those internal tests where they are underperforming since you are the one claiming they are lieing. Yours is the extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. I have chosen to accept their conclussion, as such you have the burden to prove them lieing. The burden is not mine to prove thier stated position as I have accepted it as it is. You are the one contesting the actual developers and thier integrityEdited by Skwor on February 5, 2019 11:09PM2 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »IzzyStardust wrote: »Illuvatarr wrote: »I think people are over reacting. Look at the Altmer racial passives/abilities. Change your gear up accordingly to accommodate the change. Altmer should still be top dps with right gear combination. You can’t compare it to other races in same gear sets as the racials pretty clearly point out which gear sets to use.
Whatever - they just gave altmer stam regen.
Unbelievable.
It was decided to make it a minor utility buff instead of just removing the original buff all together. This was done due to the race overperforming. How people miss this was a good thing is beyond me.
The race was very clearly underperforming in actual testing.
LOL right.... you would have us believe Zen knowingly took an underperforming race and made it worse to either sell more race changes tokens or just to maliciously nerf the race, your reasoning is approaching that of parody.
No, it is obvious the race was overperforming which is basically what the Devs said. You really would have every believe instead they are lieing becuase you say so?
Show me tests where they are overperformibg.
We have all seen the posts about tests and parses. I have seen no impartial accurate tests demonstesting the altmer underperforming as you claim. I chose to believe the developers who track internal metrics to determine the effectiveness of the racial changes. Thay have clearly stated they were overperforming.
Why don't you show me those internal tests where they are underperforming since you are the one claimijg they are lieing, yours is the extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. I have chosen to accept their conclussion, as such you have the burden to prove them lieing. The burden is not mine to prove thier stated position as I have accepted it as it is. You are the one contesting the actual developers and thier integrity
The developers have literally said they cannot replicate the parses of the top players.10 -
mxxo✭✭✭✭Well i may have my problems with Khajiit (
) but i dont think its a cash grab. ZOS gives us 3 Race Change Tokens and 3 Name Change Tokens. Thats enough for most ppl to cover their mainly used BIS Chars. If they would give more Tokens a lot of ppl would use it for other reasons. I think this is fair for the interests of ZOS and the interests of the Customers. 3 -
Browiseth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
@MLGProPlayerMLGProPlayer wrote: »dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »let's make something clear; and I think it's something people don't realise or don't want to realise.
The purpose of these changes isn't to "nerf" or "buff", it's to fundementally change what choosing your race means for you as a player in the first place. Currently, there are defined "best" races for certain roles, ZoS wants to change that, or at least mitigate it. I agree with this philosophy; it's something long overdue in this cancerous meta we find ourselves in this game. unfortunately, I don't think they're implementing this philosophy as well as they could be, but that's a whole other conversation.
Anyway, stop this. Stop this mentality of "this is being nerfed" or "now X is the best thing for X", it's not the point of these changes. Or it's not supposed to be, anyway.
So you're going to be ignorant of the facts. It's a nerf to some and huge buff for ZOS wallet. Many players have been playing the same toon for years, not because of META but because they actually RP as Altmer or Bosmer. A lot of PVE players as well play Altmer for the aesthetic and lore behind the passive. The way they continue to nerf and buff is around PVP which is only a small portion of their player base but is the loudest to cry.
@dcam86b14_ESO What are you talking about? Did you even read my post?
You're exhibiting the exact behaviour I was alluding to. You just jumped immediately to "I only care about how this affects me individually", rather than how these changes can affect the game and, by extension, the whole playerbase.
The new design philosophy is good. It's long overdue. If ZoS were handling it better, it would mean choosing your race isn't such a game changing decision at endgame; every race would be able to perform certain roles and bring their own unique twist to it.
That seems to be too big of a concept for a lot of people though, they only see the short term; the "I do 1% less dps now I quit the game" or, as you say, "this small statistic is the only thing retaining my sense of immersion and due to the change to it my suspension of disbelief has been completely shattered"
The new design philsophy isn't good. They are explicitly targetting the current meta classes and knocking them out of the meta. They are not striving for balance.
Altmer were the second worst magicka DPS class before these nerfs, but the gap was very small. ZOS nerfed them specifically to widen the gap and force people to race change. This current "philosophy" is nothing more than a cash grab.
You see what I mean? You're just focusing on how Altmer are going to have lower dps with these changes, not the bigger picture for what the changes are supposed to mean. You're creating this conspiracy in your head that ZOS wants to sell race change tokens to justify this victimization you've conjured up.skingrad when zoscharacters:PC/NA but live in EU 150+ ping lyfe- EP - M - Strikes-with-Arcane - Argonian Stamina Sorc - lvl 50 - The Flawless Conqueror/Spirit Slayer
- EP - F - Melina Elinia - Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Sinnia Lavellan - Altmer Warden Healer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Follows-the-Arcane - Argonian Healer Sorcerer- lvl 50
- EP - F - Ashes-of-Arcane - Argonian Magicka Necromancer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Bolgrog the Sinh - Orc Stamina Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Moonlight Maiden - Altmer Magicka Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Maxine Cauline - Breton Magicka Nightblade - lvl 50
- EP - M - Garrus Loridius - Imperial Stamina Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Jennifer Loridius - Imperial Necromancer tank - lvl 50
4 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
@MLGProPlayerMLGProPlayer wrote: »dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »let's make something clear; and I think it's something people don't realise or don't want to realise.
The purpose of these changes isn't to "nerf" or "buff", it's to fundementally change what choosing your race means for you as a player in the first place. Currently, there are defined "best" races for certain roles, ZoS wants to change that, or at least mitigate it. I agree with this philosophy; it's something long overdue in this cancerous meta we find ourselves in this game. unfortunately, I don't think they're implementing this philosophy as well as they could be, but that's a whole other conversation.
Anyway, stop this. Stop this mentality of "this is being nerfed" or "now X is the best thing for X", it's not the point of these changes. Or it's not supposed to be, anyway.
So you're going to be ignorant of the facts. It's a nerf to some and huge buff for ZOS wallet. Many players have been playing the same toon for years, not because of META but because they actually RP as Altmer or Bosmer. A lot of PVE players as well play Altmer for the aesthetic and lore behind the passive. The way they continue to nerf and buff is around PVP which is only a small portion of their player base but is the loudest to cry.
@dcam86b14_ESO What are you talking about? Did you even read my post?
You're exhibiting the exact behaviour I was alluding to. You just jumped immediately to "I only care about how this affects me individually", rather than how these changes can affect the game and, by extension, the whole playerbase.
The new design philosophy is good. It's long overdue. If ZoS were handling it better, it would mean choosing your race isn't such a game changing decision at endgame; every race would be able to perform certain roles and bring their own unique twist to it.
That seems to be too big of a concept for a lot of people though, they only see the short term; the "I do 1% less dps now I quit the game" or, as you say, "this small statistic is the only thing retaining my sense of immersion and due to the change to it my suspension of disbelief has been completely shattered"
The new design philsophy isn't good. They are explicitly targetting the current meta classes and knocking them out of the meta. They are not striving for balance.
Altmer were the second worst magicka DPS class before these nerfs, but the gap was very small. ZOS nerfed them specifically to widen the gap and force people to race change. This current "philosophy" is nothing more than a cash grab.
You see what I mean? You're just focusing on how Altmer are going to have lower dps with these changes, not the bigger picture for what the changes are supposed to mean. You're creating this conspiracy in your head that ZOS wants to sell race change tokens to justify this victimization you've conjured up.
It's not a conspiracy if it's true.
The current meta races (which should be at the top according to the lore too) were nerfed to no longer be in the meta, thereby forcing the majority of endgame players to race change.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 5, 2019 11:55PM2 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »IzzyStardust wrote: »Illuvatarr wrote: »I think people are over reacting. Look at the Altmer racial passives/abilities. Change your gear up accordingly to accommodate the change. Altmer should still be top dps with right gear combination. You can’t compare it to other races in same gear sets as the racials pretty clearly point out which gear sets to use.
Whatever - they just gave altmer stam regen.
Unbelievable.
It was decided to make it a minor utility buff instead of just removing the original buff all together. This was done due to the race overperforming. How people miss this was a good thing is beyond me.
The race was very clearly underperforming in actual testing.
LOL right.... you would have us believe Zen knowingly took an underperforming race and made it worse to either sell more race changes tokens or just to maliciously nerf the race, your reasoning is approaching that of parody.
No, it is obvious the race was overperforming which is basically what the Devs said. You really would have every believe instead they are lieing becuase you say so?
Show me tests where they are overperformibg.
We have all seen the posts about tests and parses. I have seen no impartial accurate tests demonstesting the altmer underperforming as you claim. I chose to believe the developers who track internal metrics to determine the effectiveness of the racial changes. Thay have clearly stated they were overperforming.
Why don't you show me those internal tests where they are underperforming since you are the one claimijg they are lieing, yours is the extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. I have chosen to accept their conclussion, as such you have the burden to prove them lieing. The burden is not mine to prove thier stated position as I have accepted it as it is. You are the one contesting the actual developers and thier integrity
The developers have literally said they cannot replicate the parses of the top players.
Again with the top players. Who cares about the top players performance, that is the very definition of making a rule for the exception. Rules or balance based around the exception is utter folly, it leaves everyone else broken. It is a fools quest to balance the game around the top .05%, that is not balance that is elitism, everyone else is by definition unbalanced.
What they can do is evaluate performance against the standard model and that is what they do. That model shows from their own statement the race is overperforming. They never said nor should they ever balance the races for .05% of the population.
Have you ever seen a driver license require someone to have the skills of a racecar driver to obtain? Ever wonder why they don't? Wouldn't that be safer and ensure everyone is the best driver they should be? By your logic here that is what you are asking Zen to do with this game.Edited by Skwor on February 5, 2019 11:58PM6 -
Cloudless✭✭✭✭✭
@MLGProPlayerMLGProPlayer wrote: »dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »let's make something clear; and I think it's something people don't realise or don't want to realise.
The purpose of these changes isn't to "nerf" or "buff", it's to fundementally change what choosing your race means for you as a player in the first place. Currently, there are defined "best" races for certain roles, ZoS wants to change that, or at least mitigate it. I agree with this philosophy; it's something long overdue in this cancerous meta we find ourselves in this game. unfortunately, I don't think they're implementing this philosophy as well as they could be, but that's a whole other conversation.
Anyway, stop this. Stop this mentality of "this is being nerfed" or "now X is the best thing for X", it's not the point of these changes. Or it's not supposed to be, anyway.
So you're going to be ignorant of the facts. It's a nerf to some and huge buff for ZOS wallet. Many players have been playing the same toon for years, not because of META but because they actually RP as Altmer or Bosmer. A lot of PVE players as well play Altmer for the aesthetic and lore behind the passive. The way they continue to nerf and buff is around PVP which is only a small portion of their player base but is the loudest to cry.
@dcam86b14_ESO What are you talking about? Did you even read my post?
You're exhibiting the exact behaviour I was alluding to. You just jumped immediately to "I only care about how this affects me individually", rather than how these changes can affect the game and, by extension, the whole playerbase.
The new design philosophy is good. It's long overdue. If ZoS were handling it better, it would mean choosing your race isn't such a game changing decision at endgame; every race would be able to perform certain roles and bring their own unique twist to it.
That seems to be too big of a concept for a lot of people though, they only see the short term; the "I do 1% less dps now I quit the game" or, as you say, "this small statistic is the only thing retaining my sense of immersion and due to the change to it my suspension of disbelief has been completely shattered"
The new design philsophy isn't good. They are explicitly targetting the current meta classes and knocking them out of the meta. They are not striving for balance.
Altmer were the second worst magicka DPS class before these nerfs, but the gap was very small. ZOS nerfed them specifically to widen the gap and force people to race change. This current "philosophy" is nothing more than a cash grab.
You see what I mean? You're just focusing on how Altmer are going to have lower dps with these changes, not the bigger picture for what the changes are supposed to mean. You're creating this conspiracy in your head that ZOS wants to sell race change tokens to justify this victimization you've conjured up.
^ so much this.
Plus, do leave those unconfirmed rumors about Lawrence Schick leaving out of your ramblings. Please.4 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »IzzyStardust wrote: »Illuvatarr wrote: »I think people are over reacting. Look at the Altmer racial passives/abilities. Change your gear up accordingly to accommodate the change. Altmer should still be top dps with right gear combination. You can’t compare it to other races in same gear sets as the racials pretty clearly point out which gear sets to use.
Whatever - they just gave altmer stam regen.
Unbelievable.
It was decided to make it a minor utility buff instead of just removing the original buff all together. This was done due to the race overperforming. How people miss this was a good thing is beyond me.
The race was very clearly underperforming in actual testing.
LOL right.... you would have us believe Zen knowingly took an underperforming race and made it worse to either sell more race changes tokens or just to maliciously nerf the race, your reasoning is approaching that of parody.
No, it is obvious the race was overperforming which is basically what the Devs said. You really would have every believe instead they are lieing becuase you say so?
Show me tests where they are overperformibg.
We have all seen the posts about tests and parses. I have seen no impartial accurate tests demonstesting the altmer underperforming as you claim. I chose to believe the developers who track internal metrics to determine the effectiveness of the racial changes. Thay have clearly stated they were overperforming.
Why don't you show me those internal tests where they are underperforming since you are the one claimijg they are lieing, yours is the extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. I have chosen to accept their conclussion, as such you have the burden to prove them lieing. The burden is not mine to prove thier stated position as I have accepted it as it is. You are the one contesting the actual developers and thier integrity
The developers have literally said they cannot replicate the parses of the top players.
Again with the top players. Who cares about the top players performance, that is the very definition of making a rule for the exception. Rules or balance based around the exception is utter folly, it leaves everyone else broken. It is a fools quest to balance the game around the top .05%, that is not balance that is elitism, everyone else is by definition unbalanced.
What they can do is evaluate performance against the standard model and that is what they do, that model shows from their own statement the race is overperforming. They never said nor should they ever balance the races for .05% of the population.
Have you ever seen a driver license require someone to have the skills of a racecar driver to obtain? Ever wonder why they don't? Wouldn't that be safer and ensure everyone is the best driver they should be? By your logic here that is what you are asking Zen to do with this game.
All game developers balance ariund the highest skill level because changes trickle down. It's literally game development 101. This is why ZOS started the class rep program. It's why they will be inviting them to the studio to test the necro class.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 5, 2019 11:59PM2 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »IzzyStardust wrote: »Illuvatarr wrote: »I think people are over reacting. Look at the Altmer racial passives/abilities. Change your gear up accordingly to accommodate the change. Altmer should still be top dps with right gear combination. You can’t compare it to other races in same gear sets as the racials pretty clearly point out which gear sets to use.
Whatever - they just gave altmer stam regen.
Unbelievable.
It was decided to make it a minor utility buff instead of just removing the original buff all together. This was done due to the race overperforming. How people miss this was a good thing is beyond me.
The race was very clearly underperforming in actual testing.
LOL right.... you would have us believe Zen knowingly took an underperforming race and made it worse to either sell more race changes tokens or just to maliciously nerf the race, your reasoning is approaching that of parody.
No, it is obvious the race was overperforming which is basically what the Devs said. You really would have every believe instead they are lieing becuase you say so?
Show me tests where they are overperformibg.
We have all seen the posts about tests and parses. I have seen no impartial accurate tests demonstesting the altmer underperforming as you claim. I chose to believe the developers who track internal metrics to determine the effectiveness of the racial changes. Thay have clearly stated they were overperforming.
Why don't you show me those internal tests where they are underperforming since you are the one claimijg they are lieing, yours is the extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. I have chosen to accept their conclussion, as such you have the burden to prove them lieing. The burden is not mine to prove thier stated position as I have accepted it as it is. You are the one contesting the actual developers and thier integrity
The developers have literally said they cannot replicate the parses of the top players.
Again with the top players. Who cares about the top players performance, that is the very definition of making a rule for the exception. Rules or balance based around the exception is utter folly, it leaves everyone else broken. It is a fools quest to balance the game around the top .05%, that is not balance that is elitism, everyone else is by definition unbalanced.
What they can do is evaluate performance against the standard model and that is what they do, that model shows from their own statement the race is overperforming. They never said nor should they ever balance the races for .05% of the population.
Have you ever seen a driver license require someone to have the skills of a racecar driver to obtain? Ever wonder why they don't? Wouldn't that be safer and ensure everyone is the best driver they should be? By your logic here that is what you are asking Zen to do with this game.
All game developers balance ariund the highest skill level because changes trickle down. It's literally game development 101. This is why ZOS started the class rep program. It's why they will be inviting them to the studio to test the necro class.
You really have no idea what you are talking about. IMO you have reached the point were you will spew anything just to see what gets traction.
Please do show me in the game developers handbook 101 where it states that
Oh BTW before you spout such garbage you might want to know something about the people you throw random statements at, they actually MAY know something about what you try to state as fact. 6 -
LordTareq✭✭✭✭✭I think Zenimax is extremely racist in this matter, attributing certain physical or mental merits to race. If I proclaim white Caucasian males have 10% more stamina than black African ones, it will not go well for me. Yet in ESO my Altmer warrior, who trains daily to be in excellent physical shape by the way, will always be the lesser of an Orc, Dunmer or Redguard simply due to some racial preconceptions that all Altmer are physically weak and only good with magic. An absolutely old-fashioned colonial attitude that is shown here!5
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MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »IzzyStardust wrote: »Illuvatarr wrote: »I think people are over reacting. Look at the Altmer racial passives/abilities. Change your gear up accordingly to accommodate the change. Altmer should still be top dps with right gear combination. You can’t compare it to other races in same gear sets as the racials pretty clearly point out which gear sets to use.
Whatever - they just gave altmer stam regen.
Unbelievable.
It was decided to make it a minor utility buff instead of just removing the original buff all together. This was done due to the race overperforming. How people miss this was a good thing is beyond me.
The race was very clearly underperforming in actual testing.
LOL right.... you would have us believe Zen knowingly took an underperforming race and made it worse to either sell more race changes tokens or just to maliciously nerf the race, your reasoning is approaching that of parody.
No, it is obvious the race was overperforming which is basically what the Devs said. You really would have every believe instead they are lieing becuase you say so?
Show me tests where they are overperformibg.
We have all seen the posts about tests and parses. I have seen no impartial accurate tests demonstesting the altmer underperforming as you claim. I chose to believe the developers who track internal metrics to determine the effectiveness of the racial changes. Thay have clearly stated they were overperforming.
Why don't you show me those internal tests where they are underperforming since you are the one claimijg they are lieing, yours is the extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. I have chosen to accept their conclussion, as such you have the burden to prove them lieing. The burden is not mine to prove thier stated position as I have accepted it as it is. You are the one contesting the actual developers and thier integrity
The developers have literally said they cannot replicate the parses of the top players.
Again with the top players. Who cares about the top players performance, that is the very definition of making a rule for the exception. Rules or balance based around the exception is utter folly, it leaves everyone else broken. It is a fools quest to balance the game around the top .05%, that is not balance that is elitism, everyone else is by definition unbalanced.
What they can do is evaluate performance against the standard model and that is what they do, that model shows from their own statement the race is overperforming. They never said nor should they ever balance the races for .05% of the population.
Have you ever seen a driver license require someone to have the skills of a racecar driver to obtain? Ever wonder why they don't? Wouldn't that be safer and ensure everyone is the best driver they should be? By your logic here that is what you are asking Zen to do with this game.
All game developers balance ariund the highest skill level because changes trickle down. It's literally game development 101. This is why ZOS started the class rep program. It's why they will be inviting them to the studio to test the necro class.
You really have no idea what you are talking about. IMO you have reached the point were you will spew anything just to see what gets traction.
Please do show me in the game developers handbook 101 where it states that Oh BTW before you spout such garbage you might want to know something about the people you throw random statements at, they actually MAY know something about what you try to state as fact.
Oh that's fresh coning from you.
Your entire "argument" so far has been "ZOS knows what they are doing, your test data is wrong". When pressed to provide your own test data, you dodge the question.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 6, 2019 12:09AM2 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »
@MLGProPlayerMLGProPlayer wrote: »dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »let's make something clear; and I think it's something people don't realise or don't want to realise.
The purpose of these changes isn't to "nerf" or "buff", it's to fundementally change what choosing your race means for you as a player in the first place. Currently, there are defined "best" races for certain roles, ZoS wants to change that, or at least mitigate it. I agree with this philosophy; it's something long overdue in this cancerous meta we find ourselves in this game. unfortunately, I don't think they're implementing this philosophy as well as they could be, but that's a whole other conversation.
Anyway, stop this. Stop this mentality of "this is being nerfed" or "now X is the best thing for X", it's not the point of these changes. Or it's not supposed to be, anyway.
So you're going to be ignorant of the facts. It's a nerf to some and huge buff for ZOS wallet. Many players have been playing the same toon for years, not because of META but because they actually RP as Altmer or Bosmer. A lot of PVE players as well play Altmer for the aesthetic and lore behind the passive. The way they continue to nerf and buff is around PVP which is only a small portion of their player base but is the loudest to cry.
@dcam86b14_ESO What are you talking about? Did you even read my post?
You're exhibiting the exact behaviour I was alluding to. You just jumped immediately to "I only care about how this affects me individually", rather than how these changes can affect the game and, by extension, the whole playerbase.
The new design philosophy is good. It's long overdue. If ZoS were handling it better, it would mean choosing your race isn't such a game changing decision at endgame; every race would be able to perform certain roles and bring their own unique twist to it.
That seems to be too big of a concept for a lot of people though, they only see the short term; the "I do 1% less dps now I quit the game" or, as you say, "this small statistic is the only thing retaining my sense of immersion and due to the change to it my suspension of disbelief has been completely shattered"
The new design philsophy isn't good. They are explicitly targetting the current meta classes and knocking them out of the meta. They are not striving for balance.
Altmer were the second worst magicka DPS class before these nerfs, but the gap was very small. ZOS nerfed them specifically to widen the gap and force people to race change. This current "philosophy" is nothing more than a cash grab.
You see what I mean? You're just focusing on how Altmer are going to have lower dps with these changes, not the bigger picture for what the changes are supposed to mean. You're creating this conspiracy in your head that ZOS wants to sell race change tokens to justify this victimization you've conjured up.
It's not a conspiracy if it's true.
The current meta races (which should be at the top according to the lore too) were nerfed to no longer be in the meta, thereby forcing the majority of endgame players to race change.
Even if we were to assume your statement of the change being a nerf to be true you are saying a effect proves the cause. That you are not aware of the fallacy here and seem to be in complete ignorance of the failure in the logic says a lot.
So in your world the refrigerator light must be on when the door is closed because every time the door is open you see the refrigerator light on.. WOW!Edited by Skwor on February 6, 2019 12:12AM2 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »
@MLGProPlayerMLGProPlayer wrote: »dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »let's make something clear; and I think it's something people don't realise or don't want to realise.
The purpose of these changes isn't to "nerf" or "buff", it's to fundementally change what choosing your race means for you as a player in the first place. Currently, there are defined "best" races for certain roles, ZoS wants to change that, or at least mitigate it. I agree with this philosophy; it's something long overdue in this cancerous meta we find ourselves in this game. unfortunately, I don't think they're implementing this philosophy as well as they could be, but that's a whole other conversation.
Anyway, stop this. Stop this mentality of "this is being nerfed" or "now X is the best thing for X", it's not the point of these changes. Or it's not supposed to be, anyway.
So you're going to be ignorant of the facts. It's a nerf to some and huge buff for ZOS wallet. Many players have been playing the same toon for years, not because of META but because they actually RP as Altmer or Bosmer. A lot of PVE players as well play Altmer for the aesthetic and lore behind the passive. The way they continue to nerf and buff is around PVP which is only a small portion of their player base but is the loudest to cry.
@dcam86b14_ESO What are you talking about? Did you even read my post?
You're exhibiting the exact behaviour I was alluding to. You just jumped immediately to "I only care about how this affects me individually", rather than how these changes can affect the game and, by extension, the whole playerbase.
The new design philosophy is good. It's long overdue. If ZoS were handling it better, it would mean choosing your race isn't such a game changing decision at endgame; every race would be able to perform certain roles and bring their own unique twist to it.
That seems to be too big of a concept for a lot of people though, they only see the short term; the "I do 1% less dps now I quit the game" or, as you say, "this small statistic is the only thing retaining my sense of immersion and due to the change to it my suspension of disbelief has been completely shattered"
The new design philsophy isn't good. They are explicitly targetting the current meta classes and knocking them out of the meta. They are not striving for balance.
Altmer were the second worst magicka DPS class before these nerfs, but the gap was very small. ZOS nerfed them specifically to widen the gap and force people to race change. This current "philosophy" is nothing more than a cash grab.
You see what I mean? You're just focusing on how Altmer are going to have lower dps with these changes, not the bigger picture for what the changes are supposed to mean. You're creating this conspiracy in your head that ZOS wants to sell race change tokens to justify this victimization you've conjured up.
It's not a conspiracy if it's true.
The current meta races (which should be at the top according to the lore too) were nerfed to no longer be in the meta, thereby forcing the majority of endgame players to race change.
Even if we were to assume your statement of the change being a nerf to be true you are saying a correlation proves the effect. That you are not aware of the fallacy here and seem to be in complete ignorance of the failure in the logic says a lot.
So in your world the refrigerator light must be on when the door is closed because every time the door is open you see the refrigerator light on.. WOW!
Test data proves I am correct. Until you provide me with data to the contrary, I will remain right.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 6, 2019 12:12AM4 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
@MLGProPlayerMLGProPlayer wrote: »dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »let's make something clear; and I think it's something people don't realise or don't want to realise.
The purpose of these changes isn't to "nerf" or "buff", it's to fundementally change what choosing your race means for you as a player in the first place. Currently, there are defined "best" races for certain roles, ZoS wants to change that, or at least mitigate it. I agree with this philosophy; it's something long overdue in this cancerous meta we find ourselves in this game. unfortunately, I don't think they're implementing this philosophy as well as they could be, but that's a whole other conversation.
Anyway, stop this. Stop this mentality of "this is being nerfed" or "now X is the best thing for X", it's not the point of these changes. Or it's not supposed to be, anyway.
So you're going to be ignorant of the facts. It's a nerf to some and huge buff for ZOS wallet. Many players have been playing the same toon for years, not because of META but because they actually RP as Altmer or Bosmer. A lot of PVE players as well play Altmer for the aesthetic and lore behind the passive. The way they continue to nerf and buff is around PVP which is only a small portion of their player base but is the loudest to cry.
@dcam86b14_ESO What are you talking about? Did you even read my post?
You're exhibiting the exact behaviour I was alluding to. You just jumped immediately to "I only care about how this affects me individually", rather than how these changes can affect the game and, by extension, the whole playerbase.
The new design philosophy is good. It's long overdue. If ZoS were handling it better, it would mean choosing your race isn't such a game changing decision at endgame; every race would be able to perform certain roles and bring their own unique twist to it.
That seems to be too big of a concept for a lot of people though, they only see the short term; the "I do 1% less dps now I quit the game" or, as you say, "this small statistic is the only thing retaining my sense of immersion and due to the change to it my suspension of disbelief has been completely shattered"
The new design philsophy isn't good. They are explicitly targetting the current meta classes and knocking them out of the meta. They are not striving for balance.
Altmer were the second worst magicka DPS class before these nerfs, but the gap was very small. ZOS nerfed them specifically to widen the gap and force people to race change. This current "philosophy" is nothing more than a cash grab.
You see what I mean? You're just focusing on how Altmer are going to have lower dps with these changes, not the bigger picture for what the changes are supposed to mean. You're creating this conspiracy in your head that ZOS wants to sell race change tokens to justify this victimization you've conjured up.
It's not a conspiracy if it's true.
The current meta races (which should be at the top according to the lore too) were nerfed to no longer be in the meta, thereby forcing the majority of endgame players to race change.
Even if we were to assume your statement of the change being a nerf to be true you are saying a correlation proves the effect. That you are not aware of the fallacy here and seem to be in complete ignorance of the failure in the logic says a lot.
So in your world the refrigerator light must be on when the door is closed because every time the door is open you see the refrigerator light on.. WOW!
Test data proves I am correct. Until you provide me with data to the contrary, I will remain right.
Let me gets this straight, your personal or I guess some other player's personal test data is to be trusted over the developers tools and internal data.. yep keep running with that, it is a sure winner
You do know the Developers actually, ya know ..developed this game. They might actually know better and have better data than some random player's attempt to parse data regardless of that player's sincerity?
All your posts requires people to believe Zen is not telling the truth and you know better than them.. That is not a very tenable position without some pretty solid evidence.Edited by Skwor on February 6, 2019 12:19AM1 -
Browiseth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »
@MLGProPlayerMLGProPlayer wrote: »dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »let's make something clear; and I think it's something people don't realise or don't want to realise.
The purpose of these changes isn't to "nerf" or "buff", it's to fundementally change what choosing your race means for you as a player in the first place. Currently, there are defined "best" races for certain roles, ZoS wants to change that, or at least mitigate it. I agree with this philosophy; it's something long overdue in this cancerous meta we find ourselves in this game. unfortunately, I don't think they're implementing this philosophy as well as they could be, but that's a whole other conversation.
Anyway, stop this. Stop this mentality of "this is being nerfed" or "now X is the best thing for X", it's not the point of these changes. Or it's not supposed to be, anyway.
So you're going to be ignorant of the facts. It's a nerf to some and huge buff for ZOS wallet. Many players have been playing the same toon for years, not because of META but because they actually RP as Altmer or Bosmer. A lot of PVE players as well play Altmer for the aesthetic and lore behind the passive. The way they continue to nerf and buff is around PVP which is only a small portion of their player base but is the loudest to cry.
@dcam86b14_ESO What are you talking about? Did you even read my post?
You're exhibiting the exact behaviour I was alluding to. You just jumped immediately to "I only care about how this affects me individually", rather than how these changes can affect the game and, by extension, the whole playerbase.
The new design philosophy is good. It's long overdue. If ZoS were handling it better, it would mean choosing your race isn't such a game changing decision at endgame; every race would be able to perform certain roles and bring their own unique twist to it.
That seems to be too big of a concept for a lot of people though, they only see the short term; the "I do 1% less dps now I quit the game" or, as you say, "this small statistic is the only thing retaining my sense of immersion and due to the change to it my suspension of disbelief has been completely shattered"
The new design philsophy isn't good. They are explicitly targetting the current meta classes and knocking them out of the meta. They are not striving for balance.
Altmer were the second worst magicka DPS class before these nerfs, but the gap was very small. ZOS nerfed them specifically to widen the gap and force people to race change. This current "philosophy" is nothing more than a cash grab.
You see what I mean? You're just focusing on how Altmer are going to have lower dps with these changes, not the bigger picture for what the changes are supposed to mean. You're creating this conspiracy in your head that ZOS wants to sell race change tokens to justify this victimization you've conjured up.
It's not a conspiracy if it's true.
The current meta races (which should be at the top according to the lore too) were nerfed to no longer be in the meta, thereby forcing the majority of endgame players to race change.
No, it's not true. As I said, it's some rediculous tangent you've created in order to justify why you're upset.
Grow up. Stop being so emotionally driven by these small statistical changes that you need to create a fake conspiracy in order to....
I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish, but it's time people look at this objectively and without whining or throwing random accusations around just because they're angry.
Again, grow up.skingrad when zoscharacters:PC/NA but live in EU 150+ ping lyfe- EP - M - Strikes-with-Arcane - Argonian Stamina Sorc - lvl 50 - The Flawless Conqueror/Spirit Slayer
- EP - F - Melina Elinia - Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Sinnia Lavellan - Altmer Warden Healer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Follows-the-Arcane - Argonian Healer Sorcerer- lvl 50
- EP - F - Ashes-of-Arcane - Argonian Magicka Necromancer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Bolgrog the Sinh - Orc Stamina Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Moonlight Maiden - Altmer Magicka Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Maxine Cauline - Breton Magicka Nightblade - lvl 50
- EP - M - Garrus Loridius - Imperial Stamina Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Jennifer Loridius - Imperial Necromancer tank - lvl 50
6 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
@MLGProPlayerMLGProPlayer wrote: »dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »let's make something clear; and I think it's something people don't realise or don't want to realise.
The purpose of these changes isn't to "nerf" or "buff", it's to fundementally change what choosing your race means for you as a player in the first place. Currently, there are defined "best" races for certain roles, ZoS wants to change that, or at least mitigate it. I agree with this philosophy; it's something long overdue in this cancerous meta we find ourselves in this game. unfortunately, I don't think they're implementing this philosophy as well as they could be, but that's a whole other conversation.
Anyway, stop this. Stop this mentality of "this is being nerfed" or "now X is the best thing for X", it's not the point of these changes. Or it's not supposed to be, anyway.
So you're going to be ignorant of the facts. It's a nerf to some and huge buff for ZOS wallet. Many players have been playing the same toon for years, not because of META but because they actually RP as Altmer or Bosmer. A lot of PVE players as well play Altmer for the aesthetic and lore behind the passive. The way they continue to nerf and buff is around PVP which is only a small portion of their player base but is the loudest to cry.
@dcam86b14_ESO What are you talking about? Did you even read my post?
You're exhibiting the exact behaviour I was alluding to. You just jumped immediately to "I only care about how this affects me individually", rather than how these changes can affect the game and, by extension, the whole playerbase.
The new design philosophy is good. It's long overdue. If ZoS were handling it better, it would mean choosing your race isn't such a game changing decision at endgame; every race would be able to perform certain roles and bring their own unique twist to it.
That seems to be too big of a concept for a lot of people though, they only see the short term; the "I do 1% less dps now I quit the game" or, as you say, "this small statistic is the only thing retaining my sense of immersion and due to the change to it my suspension of disbelief has been completely shattered"
The new design philsophy isn't good. They are explicitly targetting the current meta classes and knocking them out of the meta. They are not striving for balance.
Altmer were the second worst magicka DPS class before these nerfs, but the gap was very small. ZOS nerfed them specifically to widen the gap and force people to race change. This current "philosophy" is nothing more than a cash grab.
You see what I mean? You're just focusing on how Altmer are going to have lower dps with these changes, not the bigger picture for what the changes are supposed to mean. You're creating this conspiracy in your head that ZOS wants to sell race change tokens to justify this victimization you've conjured up.
It's not a conspiracy if it's true.
The current meta races (which should be at the top according to the lore too) were nerfed to no longer be in the meta, thereby forcing the majority of endgame players to race change.
Even if we were to assume your statement of the change being a nerf to be true you are saying a correlation proves the effect. That you are not aware of the fallacy here and seem to be in complete ignorance of the failure in the logic says a lot.
So in your world the refrigerator light must be on when the door is closed because every time the door is open you see the refrigerator light on.. WOW!
Test data proves I am correct. Until you provide me with data to the contrary, I will remain right.
Let me gets this straight, your personal or I guess some other player's personal test data is to be trusted over the developers tools and internal data.. yep keep running with that, it is a sure winner
You do know the Developers actually, ya know ..developed this game. They might actually know better and have better data than some random player's attempt to parse data regardless of that player's sincerity?
All your posts requires people to believe Zen is not telling the truth and you know better than them.. That is not a very tenable position without some pretty solid evidence.
Players play this game. If none of their tests showed that Altmer were overperforming, then Altmer weren't overperforming. Liko, one of the top DDs, did not show them overperforming. Susmitds ran the tests under more "average" conditions. Again, Altmer were not overperforming.
You can continue to argue that ZOS has "secret" data, but until you show me actual PROOF, you are just spouting nonsense.6