Haashhtaag wrote: »

There is no reason that the Templar cleanse has a snare.

TheYKcid wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Try to imagine playing a slow setup built around stationary aoes without executes. Now picture yourself trying to finish off any stamina setup in the game when soloing in cyro... Ill tell you what - it wont happen even using the oh-so op (according to your definition) frost woe. A single sidestep, a single dodge-roll will reset the snare on the very next gcd. Honestly, when soloing I never expect my frost woe to snare any enemy longer than a single gcd - because that's how it usually plays out.

60% snare might sound like a lot, not so much when it usually lasts only for a single gcd due to its narrow layout (compared to sticky snares or other ground snare aoes), does almost no dmg and cost 2k+ ressources.

Try to rely on frost stave chilled immobilisation for control without additional investment via charged/frost enchant, its pitiful - the immobilization procs are so rare, you can count them on one hand over a lengthy pvp session.

So, what you call overloaded and unconditional is actually VERY conditional and relying on both effects cooperating to generate reliable value. I get it, you wouldn't care if frost staves lose all of their pvp value, because you arw annoyed by /dont use them. Not everyone is a stamblade or magsorc tho and can benefit from superior mobility to secure kills.

Faulty comparison, at best. Why would you run blockade in a solo openworld context, where mobility, versatility and burst are king? Obviously picking the most suboptimal use-case for an ability is going to reflect poorly on said ability.

That would be like an NB complaining that Cloak performs poorly in organised GvG, and asking for Cloak buffs as a solution. A little absurd, right?

The scenario in which Frost Blockade truly wrecks face is in static objective fights. Think flag/relic modes in BG, or holding a breach/scroll in openworld. The snare is absolutely unavoidable in such cases, and the immob is far from unreliable either—FYI, infused frost glyph + Frost Blockade backbar > Charged frontbar = a 96% chance to proc Chilled, and therefore immob, every 2.5 seconds.

Obviously it goes without saying that you can't balance the entire game around a single content mode (eg. BGs), and the same can be said about solo openworld—so neither argument/counterargument is by itself a compelling or holistic one. I would absolutely be welcoming of adjustments that boosted the efficacy of Blockade in a solo openworld context (in which I, like you, do not find it problematic), if it was correspondingly accompanied by nerfs to the areas in which it genuinely overperforms.

So, situationality aside, a more "apples-to-apples" comparison would be to contrast it with other skills that apply static ground snares. Templars' Sacred Ground passive, typically applied via purge? Half the snare value. DKs' Eruption? Slightly better snare at 70%, but a tiny radius of 5m—that's 74% less area covered than the 18×12m² Blockade.

Not happy with the cost of Blockade? Ritual & Eruption cost 800 & 1000 more mag, respectively. What about counterplay? In a static fight, 18×12m² is absolutely not side-steppable as melee, and the Blockade user dictates the pace of the fight. Snare immunity is your only option engaging into such a situation, and Shuffle costs about as much stam as Blockade does mag, but with a 2.5s duration vs. 8s on the latter.

Frost Blockade doesn't even add-up in the most direct comparison—to itself. As already mentioned, neither the flame nor shock variants have any equivalent to its snare.

TheYKcid wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Try to imagine playing a slow setup built around stationary aoes without executes. Now picture yourself trying to finish off any stamina setup in the game when soloing in cyro... Ill tell you what - it wont happen even using the oh-so op (according to your definition) frost woe. A single sidestep, a single dodge-roll will reset the snare on the very next gcd. Honestly, when soloing I never expect my frost woe to snare any enemy longer than a single gcd - because that's how it usually plays out.

60% snare might sound like a lot, not so much when it usually lasts only for a single gcd due to its narrow layout (compared to sticky snares or other ground snare aoes), does almost no dmg and cost 2k+ ressources.

Try to rely on frost stave chilled immobilisation for control without additional investment via charged/frost enchant, its pitiful - the immobilization procs are so rare, you can count them on one hand over a lengthy pvp session.

So, what you call overloaded and unconditional is actually VERY conditional and relying on both effects cooperating to generate reliable value. I get it, you wouldn't care if frost staves lose all of their pvp value, because you arw annoyed by /dont use them. Not everyone is a stamblade or magsorc tho and can benefit from superior mobility to secure kills.

Faulty comparison, at best. Why would you run blockade in a solo openworld context, where mobility, versatility and burst are king? Obviously picking the most suboptimal use-case for an ability is going to reflect poorly on said ability.

That would be like an NB complaining that Cloak performs poorly in organised GvG, and asking for Cloak buffs as a solution. A little absurd, right?

The scenario in which Frost Blockade truly wrecks face is in static objective fights. Think flag/relic modes in BG, or holding a breach/scroll in openworld. The snare is absolutely unavoidable in such cases, and the immob is far from unreliable either—FYI, infused frost glyph + Frost Blockade backbar > Charged frontbar = a 96% chance to proc Chilled, and therefore immob, every 2.5 seconds.

Obviously it goes without saying that you can't balance the entire game around a single content mode (eg. BGs), and the same can be said about solo openworld—so neither argument/counterargument is by itself a compelling or holistic one. I would absolutely be welcoming of adjustments that boosted the efficacy of Blockade in a solo openworld context (in which I, like you, do not find it problematic), if it was correspondingly accompanied by nerfs to the areas in which it genuinely overperforms.

So, situationality aside, a more "apples-to-apples" comparison would be to contrast it with other skills that apply static ground snares. Templars' Sacred Ground passive, typically applied via purge? Half the snare value. DKs' Eruption? Slightly better snare at 70%, but a tiny radius of 5m—that's 74% less area covered than the 18×12m² Blockade.

Not happy with the cost of Blockade? Ritual & Eruption cost 800 & 1000 more mag, respectively. What about counterplay? In a static fight, 18×12m² is absolutely not side-steppable as melee, and the Blockade user dictates the pace of the fight. Snare immunity is your only option engaging into such a situation, and Shuffle costs about as much stam as Blockade does mag, but with a 2.5s duration vs. 8s on the latter.

Frost Blockade doesn't even add-up in the most direct comparison—to itself. As already mentioned, neither the flame nor shock variants have any equivalent to its snare.

According to your logic suboptimal equals irrelevant. I disagree. I was trying to show you that there might be different perspectives on the matter and that skills like frost woe are enablers (just like old dynamic ult gen) allowing slow setups not blessed with superior mobility to actually have a shot in solo open world (despite being "suboptimal") by shutting down the mobility of faster setups (such as the ones listed in your signature which also happen to be the easiest classes to solo with) while still being hard enough to apply (see my first post).

Your complaints in combination with the classes you identify with (source: your signature) just prove the changes to mobility could be perceived as working as intended by representing long overdue alternative to original mechanics (dynamic ult gen) that got deleted from the game. Back in time, before stamina setups were a thing, both standyourground and mobility were viable solo playstyles because of above-mentioned mechanic. Mobility just became king because magicka standyourground got nerfed hardest with its removal.

To strengthen mobility restraining effects is an alternative way to make non-mobile playstyles more viable and therefore creating diversity and even ground for solo play. And it is helping setups that have a hart time playing solo (something that should be desirable, correct?), contrary to stamblade and magsorc who naturally as kings of mobility didnt suffer as much from those 1.4-1-5 changes in solo play and smallscale.

Helping those slow setups basically means hurting the fast ones, the main reason slow setups cant compete is: 1) not being able to escape (frost woe helps a lot here btw) - immediately followed by: 2) they cant freaking secure kills on fast setups. So any improvement to 2) in favor of slow setups will cause tears from players which had the time of their life relying on unmatched mobility. In the grand scheme of things those changes might be an improvement despite those tears tho.

I'm just trying to highlight that your pov might not account for all concerns of the various playstyles and they have good points, too.

Ability to secure solo kills is not the be-all-end-all measure of a build's viability—and you seem awfully fixated on this one metric for someone who encourages the consideration of multiple viewpoints.

A Guardbot isn't any less impactful to their group simply because they can't secure solo kills. Likewise, a Magden dropping Shards, Frost Wall and Perma can singlehandedly win an engagement for their team, time after time, despite not being the one mopping-up the last hits. PvP is about more than chasing players down.

it's also a little amusing that you seem to view the dynamic ultgen era as a good thing.

No one wants to hamstring your solo openworld mobility/countermobility. Go and campaign for buffs in this area if you want to, I'd be all for it; the vast majority of my playtime is solo, split between Cyro and BGs. I don't even think we're arguing with each other—I've specifically stated the cases in which I think Frost Wall overperforms, and they don't seem to overlap with yours.

danno8 wrote: »

I use Ice staff in PvP quite frequently. I would be willing to see the snare gone and instead have Frost WoE do additional damage to moving targets.

I know it doesn't fit into the "tanking" version of Ice staves we have now, but it would make Ice Staves relevant for PvP while getting rid of the annoying slowness factor. Also still punishes fast movers without snaring them so it maintains some functionality.