night capping in pvp

Nhilandra77 · February 2019

I don't know about you, but I really hate these night cappers in pvp, and its always the same faction that does it.

I feel it really ruins the pvp gaming experience, when you log in in the morning and daggerfall have yet again taken all the scrolls, all the keeps and the map is all blue. I play a lot on kyne and this happens all the time, in fact every day this week.

wouldn't it be possible to make 2 under 50 servers? one that capping is disabled after 12pm restarting at 8, and one where its not disabled at all, so the night players can freely still cap away to their hearts content, and all real players don't log off and not play at all. this to me seems like the easiest solution to this highly annoying and to be honest, game ruining problem.

ps, people see the map, and don't play. ad, ep and dc. the only ones that do are a few dc players happily beating the one or 2 other faction players trying to take a resource or two. the reason being, its just not fun to fight when you own the whole map, and its just not fun to retake the whole map alone

heaven13 · February 2019

While I'm sure it can be frustrating to see the map changed to all one color, it would be incredibly unfair to lock maps by times. What if the "night cappers" work and the hours you want locked are the only times they can play? What if they're in a completely different time zone? It's a bit ignorant to assume these players are somehow gaming the system and are not "real players" (your words). Instead of logging off, try to form a group and put up some resistance.

Sharee · February 2019

Dont call it nightcapping, because there will be some smartass jumping you with "the Earth is round, you know, your night is my primetime!" - even tho he full well knows the problem is not the time at which it happens, the problem is the population imbalance at which it happens.[Edit: too late

]

Instead of calling for capping being disabled at some time, ask for population balance controls that ensure the imbalance won't happpen in the firstplace.

Turelus · February 2019

Nhilandra77 wrote: »

its always the same faction that does it.

Which would be all of them at some point in the games life.

Every faction will take advantage of a lack of population in the other factions during times they're active enough to claim the map. It's been debated since the games launch and the only way we're going to fix it is to get more people back into Cyrodiil on less campaigns, so there are more even populations at all hours.

therift · February 2019

Are you aware that since the Earth is round like a ball, that when it is night time where you live, it is day time on the other side?

If your idea were to be implemented, which time zones do you propose shall be blocked from 'night capping'? Should North and South America be blocked from capping keeps so that players in Australia, the Philippines, Singapore, etc don't suffer the annoyance of waking up in the morning to discover that Americans and Brazilians capped Kyne while they slept?

Truly, your problem and solution are ridiculous.

[edit: we posted simultaneously, sharee

]

Sharee · February 2019

Turelus wrote: »

Nhilandra77 wrote: »

its always the same faction that does it.

Which would be all of them at some point in the games life.

Every faction will take advantage of a lack of population in the other factions during times they're active enough to claim the map. It's been debated since the games launch and the only way we're going to fix it is to get more people back into Cyrodiil on less campaigns, so there are more even populations at all hours.

Alternatively, you could restrict the population allowed playing for a side so that the other sides are not overwhelmed.

Otherwise, if you have a pop cap of 100, 150 available players will always split 100-25-25, because path of least resistance is a thing.

The only other solution is to ensure all realms are capped at all times, and good luck with that.

Turelus · February 2019

Sharee wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Nhilandra77 wrote: »

its always the same faction that does it.

Which would be all of them at some point in the games life.

Every faction will take advantage of a lack of population in the other factions during times they're active enough to claim the map. It's been debated since the games launch and the only way we're going to fix it is to get more people back into Cyrodiil on less campaigns, so there are more even populations at all hours.

Alternatively, you could restrict the population allowed playing for a side so that the other sides are not overwhelmed.

Otherwise, if you have a pop cap of 100, 150 available players will always split 100-25-25, because path of least resistance is a thing.

The only other solution is to ensure all realms are capped at all times, and good luck with that.

The problem with restriction is it upsets people, a lot.

Think about all the PvP events when the campaigns lock out and people rage they can't play with their guild/friends that night because their campaigns are full of new random players farming AP.
Even is said guild/friends all left the campaign they were in for their friend what's to stop them immediately setting the other campaign they join off balance and creating a lock.
Lastly what happens when a population is so high but doesn't log out after midnight and the other two do, do you just boot random people from Cyrodiil to match the new lock outs?

xxthir13enxx · February 2019

Sharee wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Nhilandra77 wrote: »

its always the same faction that does it.

Which would be all of them at some point in the games life.

Every faction will take advantage of a lack of population in the other factions during times they're active enough to claim the map. It's been debated since the games launch and the only way we're going to fix it is to get more people back into Cyrodiil on less campaigns, so there are more even populations at all hours.

Alternatively, you could restrict the population allowed playing for a side so that the other sides are not overwhelmed.

Otherwise, if you have a pop cap of 100, 150 available players will always split 100-25-25, because path of least resistance is a thing.

The only other solution is to ensure all realms are capped at all times, and good luck with that.

Aaand the problem with Equalized POP Cap is...people leave.... Sooo who gets kicked in order to Lower the population of the Higher Populated Alliance to match the now Lower Populated one?

Sharee · February 2019

Turelus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Nhilandra77 wrote: »

its always the same faction that does it.

Which would be all of them at some point in the games life.

Every faction will take advantage of a lack of population in the other factions during times they're active enough to claim the map. It's been debated since the games launch and the only way we're going to fix it is to get more people back into Cyrodiil on less campaigns, so there are more even populations at all hours.

Alternatively, you could restrict the population allowed playing for a side so that the other sides are not overwhelmed.

Otherwise, if you have a pop cap of 100, 150 available players will always split 100-25-25, because path of least resistance is a thing.

The only other solution is to ensure all realms are capped at all times, and good luck with that.

The problem with restriction is it upsets people, a lot.

Think about all the PvP events when the campaigns lock out and people rage they can't play with their guild/friends that night because their campaigns are full of new random players farming AP.

You need to realize the imbalance in population happens in the firstplace because it is possible to have imbalance.

EU vivec AD is not massively overpopulated at night because all the AD fans happen to play at night (and none of the DC/EP fans) but because people (who are able to play at that time) literally take the path of least resistance and flock to the same side for easy wins. If this was not possible, they would be playing DC/EP instead!

Turelus wrote: »

Even is said guild/friends all left the campaign they were in for their friend what's to stop them immediately setting the other campaign they join off balance and creating a lock.

Because the system wont let them create an imbalance. They wont be able to join a side if their presence would upset balance.

Turelus wrote: »

Lastly what happens when a population is so high but doesn't log out after midnight and the other two do, do you just boot random people from Cyrodiil to match the new lock outs?

It is sufficient to simply prevent new people from joining the overpopulated side. Natural player fluctuation will take care of the rest, no need to boot anyone.

Sharee · February 2019

xxthir13enxx wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Nhilandra77 wrote: »

its always the same faction that does it.

Which would be all of them at some point in the games life.

Every faction will take advantage of a lack of population in the other factions during times they're active enough to claim the map. It's been debated since the games launch and the only way we're going to fix it is to get more people back into Cyrodiil on less campaigns, so there are more even populations at all hours.

Alternatively, you could restrict the population allowed playing for a side so that the other sides are not overwhelmed.

Otherwise, if you have a pop cap of 100, 150 available players will always split 100-25-25, because path of least resistance is a thing.

The only other solution is to ensure all realms are capped at all times, and good luck with that.

Aaand the problem with Equalized POP Cap is...people leave.... Sooo who gets kicked in order to Lower the population of the Higher Populated Alliance to match the now Lower Populated one?

Noone will get kicked. New players will just be prevented from joining a side if doing so would cause(or reinforce) a population imbalance. People join and leave all the time, if you restrict one side from getting new players, the pop levels will even out over time on their own.

therift · February 2019

Maybe the solution is to just suck it up when you log in and discover an opposing alliance has captured the map.

No, truly... just suck it up.

My PvP guild is blessed with a large number of Aussies and Kiwis, and a sprinkling of players living in Singapore and Japan. We have some play time overlap... when the Western Hemisphere players are logging off for the night, the Eastern Hemisphere players are logging in.

These 'night capping' complaints are pure bull crap. Population imbalance occurs at all hours. And guess what? When you log off the game, we're not going to preserve the board for you until you log back in.

For all the times that I have logged in to see my Alliance gated, I always saw the same thing: lots to do, and lots of AP to be earned.

'Night capping' *scoffs*

albesca · February 2019

Sharee wrote: »

Alternatively, you could restrict the population allowed playing for a side so that the other sides are not overwhelmed.

Otherwise, if you have a pop cap of 100, 150 available players will always split 100-25-25, because path of least resistance is a thing.

The only other solution is to ensure all realms are capped at all times, and good luck with that.

As Turelus wrote, restricting access due to low pop in other alliance would annoy people, and the PVP crowd is small enough as it is.
I think that rewards (both APs and campaign points) should be dynamic and tied to the relative populations, though I'm not sure how that could work in details

Turelus · February 2019

Sharee wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Lastly what happens when a population is so high but doesn't log out after midnight and the other two do, do you just boot random people from Cyrodiil to match the new lock outs?

It is sufficient to simply prevent new people from joining the overpopulated side. Natural player fluctuation will take care of the rest, no need to boot anyone.

I don't think this will though. As someone who actively spent time in a guild/alliance which did night capping most of our people who were there until the early hours started playing at early evening/peak times and just didn't go to bed until the map was captured.
Very few new people came online later into the night/morning with the exception of a couple of people on night shifts. This was because a majority of us were unemployed or students and could sleep until midday whilst other players who went to bed at normal times would wake up and fight to hold what we took.

Capping numbers causes more annoyance than other alternatives like reinforcement timers and such that other games use.

xxthir13enxx · February 2019

But you would be locking any possibility of resistance growing on the Mid populated alliance...
Say...
100-50-25
The 50 cannot gain pop. Due to 25... and the 100 don’t sign off because...they “Winning” and “nightcap” still happens.

Sharee · February 2019

albesca wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Alternatively, you could restrict the population allowed playing for a side so that the other sides are not overwhelmed.

Otherwise, if you have a pop cap of 100, 150 available players will always split 100-25-25, because path of least resistance is a thing.

The only other solution is to ensure all realms are capped at all times, and good luck with that.

As Turelus wrote, restricting access due to low pop in other alliance would annoy people, and the PVP crowd is small enough as it is.

If someone is used to being able to roll over opposition (if any) and paint the whole map, then preventing him from doing so would annoy him, sure.

But that is only because he got used to being able to do so. If we had a system that would prevent massive population imbalance from the start, everyone would take it as something completely normal.

So its just a matter of getting used to the new system.

albesca wrote: »

I think that rewards (both APs and campaign points) should be dynamic and tied to the relative populations, though I'm not sure how that could work in details

The problem is that this assumes the people who have been painting the map yellow(or whatever) day after day for three years straight even care about things like AP rewards or campaign points anymore, instead of just wanting to feel powerful and roflstomp anyone in their path.

Undefwun · February 2019

OP is short sighted and/or selfish... apparently their timezone is the one to rule them all... and the rest of the universe should rotate around their bedtime...

Edit: how does one play alot of kyne? Is that when an experienced player twinks out a toon to 'roflstomp' newbies to the game to feel powerful and then just re-roll when level 50 is hit. Yeah that's the people we should listen to...

steven22 · February 2019

ZOS could shut down all EU Servers in the night - hours, so we will get a better Performance in pvp and no nightcap anymore.

marius_buys · February 2019

Maybe if AD sorcs dont have wet paper bag armour they can face EP Dragon Knights in groups of less than 5 to 1

Sharee · February 2019

xxthir13enxx wrote: »

But you would be locking any possibility of resistance growing on the Mid populated alliance...
Say...
100-50-25
The 50 cannot gain pop. Due to 25... and the 100 don’t sign off because...they “Winning” and “nightcap” still happens.

You start at primetime, 100-100-100.

How would it even come to be that one side lost 75 players while other lost none, resulting in a 100-25? That is statistically very unlikely.

What would happen is that ~10 people would log off, and those would be more or less evenly spread over the factions. If not, then the side with the most remaining players would be prevented from getting more, while the other sides would not. So when new players came into the game, they would go to the 2 weaker factions, and none to the strongest.

As the primetime ended, the number of players would be gradually decreased for all 3 factions.

marius_buys · February 2019

steven22 wrote: »

ZOS could shut down all EU Servers in the night - hours, so we will get a better Performance in pvp and no nightcap anymore.

Someone please dos attack this guy

Sharee · February 2019

Turelus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Lastly what happens when a population is so high but doesn't log out after midnight and the other two do, do you just boot random people from Cyrodiil to match the new lock outs?

It is sufficient to simply prevent new people from joining the overpopulated side. Natural player fluctuation will take care of the rest, no need to boot anyone.

I don't think this will though. As someone who actively spent time in a guild/alliance which did night capping most of our people who were there until the early hours started playing at early evening/peak times and just didn't go to bed until the map was captured.

The goal is to prevent a lock-1bar-1bar scenarios, as is often the case. Of course if an organized group of players decided to stay on then this wont stop them, but it will cause the other players playing the campaing to oppose the guild, instead of reinforcing it.

therift · February 2019

Sharee wrote: »

xxthir13enxx wrote: »

But you would be locking any possibility of resistance growing on the Mid populated alliance...
Say...
100-50-25
The 50 cannot gain pop. Due to 25... and the 100 don’t sign off because...they “Winning” and “nightcap” still happens.

You start at primetime, 100-100-100.

How would it even come to be that one side lost 75 players while other lost none, resulting in a 100-25? That is statistically very unlikely.

What would happen is that ~10 people would log off, and those would be more or less evenly spread over the factions. If not, then the side with the most remaining players would be prevented from getting more, while the other sides would not. So when new players came into the game, they would go to the 2 weaker factions, and none to the strongest.

When is 'Prime Time'?

7pm Washington DC / Sao Paulo?
7pm Sydney / Manilla?
7pm Frankfurt / Durban?

Even if you were to select a 'Prime Time' based on peak population, any of these restriction policies will heavily favor North and South American players at the expense of everyone else.

There is no problem at all with 'night capping'. None.

And what about 'day capping'? Should I be annoyed that the map turns Red or whatever while I am at work?

I understand that you're trying to find an equitable solution for a policy of restriction.

My argument is that being annoyed about the map changing whilst one is sleeping or working or whatever is petty. Complaining about it is petulant.

The one, true, equitable solution is to suck it up and play the game.

Tan9oSuccka · February 2019

While I dislike nightcapper Emps, there’s nothing that can be done.

Wow, you crowned Emp, took all the scrolls and gated while no one was defending. At 5 AM....on a US server.

You are bad and should feel bad.

Sharee · February 2019

therift wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

xxthir13enxx wrote: »

But you would be locking any possibility of resistance growing on the Mid populated alliance...
Say...
100-50-25
The 50 cannot gain pop. Due to 25... and the 100 don’t sign off because...they “Winning” and “nightcap” still happens.

You start at primetime, 100-100-100.

How would it even come to be that one side lost 75 players while other lost none, resulting in a 100-25? That is statistically very unlikely.

What would happen is that ~10 people would log off, and those would be more or less evenly spread over the factions. If not, then the side with the most remaining players would be prevented from getting more, while the other sides would not. So when new players came into the game, they would go to the 2 weaker factions, and none to the strongest.

When is 'Prime Time'?

7pm Washington DC / Sao Paulo?
7pm Sydney / Manilla?
7pm Frankfurt / Durban?

I think i was pretty clear. Primetime is when all factions are locked.

From there, my system would allow players to leave freely, but newly joining ones would be prevented from joining the strongest faction, and could only reinforce the weaker ones. That would result in keeping the balance for all sides, even as the night non-primetime approaches and the general zone population goes down.

And it absolutely would not favor anyone over anyone else, it would just keep faction populations relatively equal, no matter where their respective players are living IRL.

ChunkyCat · February 2019

Damn Pacifc Ocean Dwellers, coming into our Cyrodills and taking our scrolls. It’s an invasion!

We need to build a wall to keep them out! A Great Wall. A beautiful wall. Biggliest wall ever. Believe me.

Call it whatever you want. A fence, a barrier, peaches. Whatever you want. But we need to build the wall, folks.

vamp_emily · February 2019

I have been in Kyne and I see how it works.

- AD logs in late at night and takes all the keeps when DC/EP gets their beauty sleep
- DC/EP log and take everything while AD gets their beauty sleep

The good thing about this is you get AP for taking everything back. I personally don't like this type of game play. I think a solution which would never happen is to allow users to create instances of the server and create rules. This way AD can take empty keeps every night and be proud and EP/DC can create an instance of the server, have great fights and then close it down at night.

Win Win for everyone.

Undefwun · February 2019

Sharee wrote: »

And it absolutely would not favor anyone over anyone else, it would just keep faction populations relatively equal, no matter where their respective players are living IRL.

So are you saying that if there is 40EP - 35DC - 20AD on... but there is like 20 extra players of DC and EP each that want to pvp, 5 DC can get in and the rest can't get into the campaign because mummy sent all the AD bowtards to bed at 8pm?

Skwor · February 2019

therift wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

xxthir13enxx wrote: »

But you would be locking any possibility of resistance growing on the Mid populated alliance...
Say...
100-50-25
The 50 cannot gain pop. Due to 25... and the 100 don’t sign off because...they “Winning” and “nightcap” still happens.

You start at primetime, 100-100-100.

How would it even come to be that one side lost 75 players while other lost none, resulting in a 100-25? That is statistically very unlikely.

What would happen is that ~10 people would log off, and those would be more or less evenly spread over the factions. If not, then the side with the most remaining players would be prevented from getting more, while the other sides would not. So when new players came into the game, they would go to the 2 weaker factions, and none to the strongest.

When is 'Prime Time'?

7pm Washington DC / Sao Paulo?
7pm Sydney / Manilla?
7pm Frankfurt / Durban?

Even if you were to select a 'Prime Time' based on peak population, any of these restriction policies will heavily favor North and South American players at the expense of everyone else.

There is no problem at all with 'night capping'. None.

And what about 'day capping'? Should I be annoyed that the map turns Red or whatever while I am at work?

I understand that you're trying to find an equitable solution for a policy of restriction.

My argument is that being annoyed about the map changing whilst one is sleeping or working or whatever is petty. Complaining about it is petulant.

The one, true, equitable solution is to suck it up and play the game.

Night capping implies taking the map and emperor with no player resistance, I do not recall that happening during the day.

You know this so try to be honest in your arguments.

Regardless there is little that can be done, financially we are limited to the servers we have. It is likely not cost effective to lock it down to a NA player server only which is the real solution imo.

shaielzafine · February 2019

What people do is also have toons on different factions. They just log on to the more populated one once the guilds log off on their "main faction" then farm the map again for offensive AP ticks. Entire guilds of people do it to take control of the map emp each other (example: same guild #1 for DC & EP then the members switch factions taking turns emping depending which side is more populated). This totally made me stop caring about PvP map and care even less about the pvp leaderboards (especially since end of campaign rewards isn't good, you just need tier 1 for stones anyway). These people just exchange resources and keeps when population is low (playing ring around the resources). But that's the way it is. It's prime time sometimes for one faction, and then another timeslot for another faction. People aren't locked on to specific characters / alliances so it's always going to be beneficial for them to change factions. Just play whatever is peak times for your preferred, I guess.

therift · February 2019

Sharee wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

xxthir13enxx wrote: »

But you would be locking any possibility of resistance growing on the Mid populated alliance...
Say...
100-50-25
The 50 cannot gain pop. Due to 25... and the 100 don’t sign off because...they “Winning” and “nightcap” still happens.

You start at primetime, 100-100-100.

How would it even come to be that one side lost 75 players while other lost none, resulting in a 100-25? That is statistically very unlikely.

What would happen is that ~10 people would log off, and those would be more or less evenly spread over the factions. If not, then the side with the most remaining players would be prevented from getting more, while the other sides would not. So when new players came into the game, they would go to the 2 weaker factions, and none to the strongest.

When is 'Prime Time'?

7pm Washington DC / Sao Paulo?
7pm Sydney / Manilla?
7pm Frankfurt / Durban?

I think i was pretty clear. Primetime is when all factions are locked.

From there, my system would allow players to leave freely, but newly joining ones would be prevented from joining the strongest faction, and could only reinforce the weaker ones. That would result in keeping the balance for all sides, even as the night non-primetime approaches and the general zone population goes down.

And it absolutely would not favor anyone over anyone else, it would just keep faction populations relatively equal, no matter where their respective players are living IRL.

Ah. I missed your definition of Prime Time.

However, I still see a problem. A dynamic faction cap would tend to force populations down overall.

If players leave the most populated faction, and if that faction were still the most populated, new players of that faction would still be prevented from joining until that faction's population declined below the second most populated. And the the second most populated would set the max population for any of the three factions.

Eventually, each faction would have a population of one.

Even if additional population calculations were implemented, the overall result is to prevent people from joining the Cyrodiil servers. We have that now with whatever upper limit ZoS has set.

Again, applying Occam's Razor, the simplest solution is to suck it up when your Alliance gets gated.

Sharee · February 2019

Undefwun wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

And it absolutely would not favor anyone over anyone else, it would just keep faction populations relatively equal, no matter where their respective players are living IRL.

So are you saying that if there is 40EP - 35DC - 20AD on... but there is like 20 extra players of DC and EP each that want to pvp, 5 DC can get in and the rest can't get into the campaign because mummy sent all the AD bowtards to bed at 8pm?

First, starting from balanced pops, that particular scenario would require AD losing players at twice the rate of EP, which is statistically unlikely.

Second, statistically EP has just as many bowtards as AD does. There is no reason to think otherwise, both sides draw from the same pool of MMO players.

Third, even if a 40-20 happened, all it would mean that EP players would get put into queue temporarily until enough AD joins(or enough EP leaves, if the population is vaning). Again, statistically there arent any more EP players than AD, so this would resolve itself shortly.