Questing/Leveling Content NOT Too Easy: An Opposing Viewpoint

Galen15 · February 2019

There have been many posts lately complaining about the ease of questing and leveling content.

Developers reading these posts may assume that this viewpoint is common or a majority viewpoint. I wanted to point out that satisfied people usually remain silent. I, for one, am quite happy with this content the way it is, and would be quite UNHAPPY if it were changed, unless any increased difficulty were made optional.

Veteran hard mode dungeons and trials are challenging enough. It is pleasant sometimes to return to easy content for a change.

Feel free to disagree but please save the insults.

Chilly-McFreeze · February 2019

As far as I know (granted, I didn't read every one of those threads) people asked for an option to raise quest difficulty to not breeze through it anymore. What they didn't asked for is that everyone must endure higher difficulty and they also didn't asked for overland contet to be on par with vet/hm dungeons/trials.

Thought that goes without saying.

Reistr_the_Unbroken · February 2019

Galen15 wrote: »

There have been many posts lately complaining about the ease of questing and leveling content.

Developers reading these posts may assume that this viewpoint is common or a majority viewpoint. I wanted to point out that satisfied people usually remain silent. I, for one, am quite happy with this content the way it is, and would be quite UNHAPPY if it were changed, unless any increased difficulty were made optional.

Veteran hard mode dungeons and trials are challenging enough. It is pleasant sometimes to return to easy content for a change.

Feel free to disagree but please save the insults.

If the developers actually changed the difficulty to cater to the hardcore players I’d probably leave tbh

InvictusApollo · February 2019

Yes we want an option to make our questing more challenging. Right now enemies are just minor annoyances and completing quests is just a matter of travelling between places while everything around us melts.

max_only · February 2019

I agree op! I have a lot of guild members who have trouble completing content. Every day I log in, someone is asking for help doing a solo quest (usually one of the faction quests that require everyone to be on the same stage in order to see the same thing). Some guildies are working with a handicap or either server distance, disability, age (older and younger), or this is their first game/mmo. I hear pleas for help doing every day tasks when I’m in game. The forum is not at all representative of what it’s like for the majority of players.

Loves_guars · February 2019

Don't worry, the forum is not representative of the actual population playing the game and any developer knows this. They have their metrics.

lunawisp · February 2019

The people complaining about levelling being easy are probably the same ones allocating 800+ champion points to their new characters. Of course it's going to be easy for them.

I watched a new player out in the world a few weeks ago and they were having a hard time staying alive against mobs that I breezed through with my new character with it's CP's allocated.

JayAstrophel · February 2019

When I first started the game about two or three months ago, I had so much trouble taking out more than one basic mob without nearly dying. Delve bosses were impossible for me as well, most of the time. With a lot of research and practice I can do all the overland content with relative ease now, but I still remember what it was like before and know that there are still folks that have trouble with it.

I'm okay with the option to make overland stuff more challenging as long as it is only an option and not mandatory. I personally wouldn't use it, though.

Sylvermynx · February 2019

It's still hard for me 7 months on - but that's because even though I now have a clue about combat, rotations, etc. I can't fix mega-ping.

Love the game, love where I live, but satellite is my only option. This game is pretty damn difficult at 2k+ ms ping.

Danikat · February 2019

I think there's several factors involved in this question and it would be impossible for everyone to agree on whether the game is too easy, too hard or just right and what needs to be done to change it (if anything). On top of that it's entirely possible for more than one group to be right.

For a start there's different expectations of difficulty. If I try to solo a boss and I'm able to kill it on the first attempt without having to do anything special - like kiting or dodging out the way of big attacks, making sure I time blocks/interrupts just right, thinking about what my skills will do and when to use them etc. - then I feel like it was probably too easy. But I know my husband gets frustrated if he has to change his skills or how he's using them to avoid getting killed and would say that means it's too hard. (I normally play games on normal/hard, he normally picks easy or story mode - I'm playing for the combat as much as the story, he wants the combat to accent the story without ever getting in the way.)

Then there's whether you're talking about someone using CP or not, and if so are they using CP in vet mode group content, or in a starter zone? If they're below the CP cap have they used those points effectively or put them into bonuses that actually have little benefit for their character? And you could say the same about their entire build - have they got skills that work well together? Are they using appropriate set gear? (Are they using set gear at all? Do they even know what set gear is and how to get it?) Are they trying to split attribute points equally between stamina, health and magicka?

But it's not necessarily as simple as teaching people to "fix" their build, because there can be trade-offs there. For example a tank build can make solo content much easier, but it can also make combat slower and more boring if you don't enjoy that way of playing so it's not necessarily a good solution.

At the moment I feel like the game as designed tends towards being too easy, but as I said above that's because I like a challenge, maybe more of a challenge than most people would be happy with. I also feel like I'm able to 'fix' that by deliberately handicapping myself - for example playing hybrid builds and not using CP. But I'm able to do that because I'm not remotely new to RPGs, MMOs or TES games and I've been playing this game for years, so I have a very clear understanding of my own preferences (both in terms of difficulty and play style) and I understand enough about how this game works to set up those handicaps and adjust them so it's just hard enough. And maybe most importantly I know I've done that - so if I ever do need to make things easier I know how I can do it with just a little time and a lot of gold (for respecs). I imagine most people who find the game difficult are not in that position and cannot easily fix it...even if the 'problem' is their build.

Sylvermynx · February 2019

@Danikat - have an awesome! GREAT post!

burglar · February 2019

I don't know if anyone complains about leveling being too easy, at least I haven't seen this, but I can be included in the group that believes the game's quests and overland content is too easy. I don't necessarily want every monster to be more difficult, but it would be a start to make content in the overland areas more challenging. I dont like that all of the group content takes place within instances, and that overland content is so easy. It makes the overland areas feel like a big chat/waiting room.

One of the first MMORPGs I played was asheron's call, and it was an open world sandbox with no zones, and I loved it. The same experience I remember having with that is the experience I had when I first played morrowind, then oblivion etc.. COming to ESO it was similar in some ways, but when they made all monsters the same level and only had a few levels of difficulty, the game lost a lot of it's depth.

One of the traditions me and my buddies had when we started a new game together was to try and make it to the high level town right after leaving training/starting areas, no matter how many times we died. There wasn't really any way of doing that in ESO when we started, I remember killing a level 35 hag in bangkorai at level 12. I suppose I should have tried craglorn, but belkarth hasn't ever really seemed like a 'main hub'. These things don't really exist anymore... everything feels scripted, predictable and there's not much of a reason to use my brain most of the time, unless I pvp.

I had been looking forward to the rest of the justice system being implemented, but my best guess is that too many people complained, so they canned it. These same types of complaints have reached elsewhere in the game; lots of pve players complain that pvp players are the problem, yet without the pvp aspect of this game it wouldn't exist, considering it's central to the lore of the time period ESO takes place.

So, yes... when all dynamic content is all but forgotten, when everything is scripted, everyone is allowed to feel safe and all content is accessible to anyone at any skill level, it only makes sense to ask them to draw the line somewhere.

Although, none of that bothers me as much as crown crates do. I miss travelling to super dangerous areas to complete quests with friends for the newest or rarest items, things that we'd try hard for, earn and wear like a badge of honor... cheesy, i guess. With crown crates, though, even a level 1 can buy that awesome mount or pet that you have. Anything you have earned usually doesn't hold much value within the community, because if they see something you have that they want, they don't have to complete a quest, just a transaction. Well, wait, I do have that explorer title that took me forever to get... d'oh they patched it so that the spawns are more predictable... now some people have the explorer title on all of their chars. I'm being bishy... i used to meet a lot of friends by asking, or being asked, where some desirable item came from, then going and doing a quest together.

mmmmh I'm ranting... maybe im just jaded. Ultimately, I want everyone to have a good time, and I don't want any group of people to be singled out, or one to be treated better or different than another because everyone deserves to enjoy their game. I just want some unscripted content added regularly that's so challenging it's punishing, but has some awesomely rare loot where the reward matches the effort put forth. It could be a single battle; it could be a quest; it could be an arduous grind of RNG; just let it be something where the reward matches the effort put forth. CoughCoughAnOpenWorldPvpServerWouldDoJustFineCough

Kalik_Gold · February 2019

Introduce an Epic class quest for each class, with an awesome weapon (choice based on playstyle) rewards.

russelmmendoza · February 2019

When I first played eso, lvl 5 no cp, trash gear, i thought they were awesome, basic knowedge, i faught 3 crabs, because i thought they were easy.
Got murdered and i was furious/frustrated.
Now cp capped, I love taking revenge on those crabs. I will never forget.

Sylvermynx · February 2019

Kalik_Gold wrote: »

Introduce an Epic class quest for each class, with an awesome weapon (choice based on playstyle) rewards.

That's a very interesting idea. I'd like to see something like that!

@ProbablePaul - considering your posts.... I find your sig to be.... ironic in the extreme.

karekiz · February 2019

The hard truth?

Most of the time very new players rarely even use skills so ZoS has to balance the game around light attacks + a random skill tossed in.

If that's bad for the game I don't know. I don't feel overland should have much difficulty above randomly spamming light attacks - Delves bosses maybe have a super low player have to hit an ult to burn the boss - world bosses usually end up being too hard for these players to solo anyway. Most of the videos I have seen were from higher end players on alts that knew dodge commands etc soloing them, which is far from the case.

Most players will rarely put all stats into correct values and randomly toss them into HP/Mana/Stamina with no real thought other than "I want to cast this more" or "I am dying so I will put more into HP" compared to "This stat value effects this dmg value so I will focus on this and focus my character into Stam or Mag abilties to aid the stat distribution.

ZoS has taken steps to assist with the build helper. Its not perfect, but its definitely a lot better then most super casual new players could put together.

In essence its fine. The only "Buff" I would ever make is to world bosses to make them of craglorn normal style <Similar HP etc>. Drops would be adjusted. That way casual leveling/newbie guilds would have an abundance of "raid" bosses they could essentially zerg with many people.

DaveMoeDee · February 2019

ProbablePaul wrote: »

I don't know if anyone complains about leveling being too easy, at least I haven't seen this, but I can be included in the group that believes the game's quests and overland content is too easy. ...

Ignore the OP's term "leveling content." There is no leveling content. There is just content. And there is leveling. The idea that any of the content is just for leveling is a broken way many some MMO-lovers seem to devalue content that isn't considered end-game.

But what they are referring to are the posts complaining that overland content has been made too easy due to nerfs since launch -- exactly what you are addressing.

I have no opinion on this issue as I have no idea how difficult overland content is right now since I always use all my max CP on new characters.

Faulgor · February 2019

People are just asking for another difficulty mode (no, artificially weakening your character is not an option for rewarding content), nobody wants to take anything away from you.

But you basically pointed out the problem yourself: dungeons and trials are challenging enough. After you reach a certain proficiency in the game, all you have looking forward to or to do is group content of specific group sizes, i.e. there are only things to do for groups of 4 or 12 people. If your group of friends has any other size, tough noogies, there's not much you can do together. And solo, there's only crafting and vMA - 3.5 year old content.

What this game needs on the PvE side is something for advanced solo players and groups of any size. That could be either another rewarding difficulty setting (e.g. getting reputation with a certain Daedric Prince for weakening yourself, something like the Tel Var system in IC), or something like a larger Public Dungeon with multiple levels that increase in difficulty as you descend.

This is something that happens all the time for me, and it has been for years: I feel like playing ESO, log in, and there is absolutely nothing to do on my own. I can't get a group together for specific instanced content, and tearing through wet blanket NPCs for the newest motif dailies is as engaging as brushing your teeth.
So all I do is decorate my house ... which is not enough to keep people subscribed, I'm afraid.

Seraphayel · February 2019

The hardest part of overland content is to get rid of snares. 99% of the enemies are not even worth recognizing, their damage is incredibly low and they are not very tough. I find it hard to believe that anyone could have a problem with overworld content due to difficulty. This game is laughably easy when it comes to that (and you follow the basic mechanics of blocking and evading).

DarcyMardin · February 2019

Having started new characters on alternate servers, I agree that the game is a lot harder when you have no old gear to wear and zero CP. If, in addition, you’re new and don’t have any clue what you’re doing, it can be quite difficult to take on 2 or 3 mobs at a time and stay alive.

Those of us who are starting alts on a max CP account can blast through zone content with no effort, but it’s a different story for folks who are new to the ESO world.

It would be nice if there were some sort of slider for difficulty. Or at least a couple of options—easy & hard.

aaisoaho · February 2019

I'm pretty happy with the difficulty on the overland content. Yes, it is way too easy for me - but I know I'm not the main demographic for the designers.

The way objective view of difficulty goes: feeling of challenge comes from 2 factors - difficulty and skill level. If the player is not skilled enough and they're trying to clear hard content, they get anxious, if the player is talented and they're trying to complete easy content, they get bored. In the middle, where skill level meets the difficulty level, we have the flow zone - the optimal state.

Currently, overland is very easy content for most of us. (and it lies in the bottom of the difficultiness) What this means is: beginners' skill level meets the difficulty level of the overland content, thus they are in an optimal state and they feel the flow. For others, it varies from flow state to boredom.

If they amped up the difficulty of overland, the beginners would get anxious when doing the content, the bit more talented players feels the flow and the long-time players would still feel boredom. The more we amp up the difficulty, the less people will enjoy it. And would you invest your time in something that makes you anxious most of the time, and which isn't mandatory?

What this game lacks, is teaching. The game itself teaches you very little, so most of the advanced players rely on the outside sources to learn. Because of this, the devs can't create huge blocks of difficult content.

There is also huge gaps in difficulty levels. A vet group dungeon is significantly harder than a normal group dungeon. A vet trial is significantly harder than a vet group dungeon. There are some players that falls into these gaps, the content is either too hard or too easy and they can't really find a suitable content. (one of such gaps lies between non-dlc vet dungeons and dlc vet dungeons) These gaps could be closed with teaching the required skills on the lower levels of difficulty, so the players would learn and gain talent to be able to try the higher difficulty activities without too much anxiety.

zaria · February 2019

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

As far as I know (granted, I didn't read every one of those threads) people asked for an option to raise quest difficulty to not breeze through it anymore. What they didn't asked for is that everyone must endure higher difficulty and they also didn't asked for overland contet to be on par with vet/hm dungeons/trials.

Thought that goes without saying.

Yes, it has been either, an optional vet mode for overland. perhaps with more xp to compensate.
or increasing difficulty of new content, who new players will not see before past cp160 anyway if they do the old zones first.

And overland is not trivial for an new player with junk gear and not much experience.

Protoavis73 · February 2019

I remember when I first entered Vile Manor as a no CP player and seeing a group of 7 or 8 mobs and thought oh no!
I tried but I failed miserably. But coming back later with some CP points and better understanding of rotation etc, it was not so hard anymore.
There are a few (longer) public dungeons which are somewhat challenging, but most of the solo material is too easy once you go beyond a certain 'level'. Would be nice to have an optional harder mode for overland/solo/delves etc.

Ryath_Waylander · February 2019

russelmmendoza wrote: »

When I first played eso, lvl 5 no cp, trash gear, i thought they were awesome, basic knowedge, i faught 3 crabs, because i thought they were easy.
Got murdered and i was furious/frustrated.
Now cp capped, I love taking revenge on those crabs. I will never forget.

Hah Clannfears were mine

I hated them, especially the thing EATING me when I couldn't get up. I stopped the Coldharbour questline at Lyris' sword and only went back at CP60. Now I'll go out of my way, to bust it's chops if I see one anywhere (permanently scarred I tell you) I started another alt the other day and left the 810CP points off. I can still manage a Dolmen with one or two deaths as a level 22. It's more of a challenge but it's amazing how a couple of years' exposure improves your surviveability. I think resource management, potions, food, a keen awareness of your health and not standing in stupid, make a real difference.

Sadetius · February 2019

Yes for some players it is fine, for other players it is too easy.

For those who enjoy being challenged, the questing experience is just a chore where you walk between point A and B. For these people challenge and frustration can lead to heightened immersion and better emotional engagement. Dont forget about the flow theory either.

Also not all new players are inexperienced in RPG/MMO games.
And nobody wants to slog through hours upon hours of content before the "fun" can begin.

I dont want an increase in overland difficulty all across. Just an option for vet overland. 90% of the content is questing, sure there are dungeons and trials but those are only a small portion of the content. and requires a group.

Gimping yourself by not using gear is not an option. Since it removes progression mechanics which are a core pillar in an RPG.

Just give more options, for some people it is important to be challenged during questing and that there should be risk involved. Just like some people want solo story dungeons, others want a vet overland.

In short don't force it, give options.

zaria · February 2019

Protoavis73 wrote: »

I remember when I first entered Vile Manor as a no CP player and seeing a group of 7 or 8 mobs and thought oh no!
I tried but I failed miserably. But coming back later with some CP points and better understanding of rotation etc, it was not so hard anymore.
There are a few (longer) public dungeons which are somewhat challenging, but most of the solo material is too easy once you go beyond a certain 'level'. Would be nice to have an optional harder mode for overland/solo/delves etc.

yes, learning about surge was a n buff in public dungeons, suddenly you could start pulling groups together

Then shields.

HappyLittleTree · February 2019

I recently started a character on NA (i'm CP 1k+ on EU)

And Boy oh boy the game is different over there.

Challenging and you feel a kind of accomplishment when you kill stuff.

Wish they'd just remove the whole cp system^^ (not really but they should look into this^^)

eliisra · February 2019

Considering the sheer amount of quests, zones and mobs you have to grind through as a new and low CP player, it's probably good it's relatively easy. If every pack of mobs had high health and required perfect planning and execution skill-wise, people wouldn't be able to catch up in reasonable time.

However I do think some optional overland content could be a lot harder. Mainly because it's a good way to learn how to play your character.

When this game was new, you had to use every single tool available to complete VR zones, for example. You learned awareness, how to time dodge, block, interrupt, importance of self heals, what NPC's to cc and so on, just by doing normal PvE stuff. Which made the transition from solo'ing to PvP or dungeons a lot easier.

MikaHR · February 2019

Actually they should make dungeon solo mode. Then they can ramp difficulty up/down as much as they like and make "story" mode for those who just want to see the story/do the quest.

Ydrisselle · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

As far as I know (granted, I didn't read every one of those threads) people asked for an option to raise quest difficulty to not breeze through it anymore. What they didn't asked for is that everyone must endure higher difficulty and they also didn't asked for overland contet to be on par with vet/hm dungeons/trials.

Thought that goes without saying.

Yes, it has been either, an optional vet mode for overland. perhaps with more xp to compensate.
or increasing difficulty of new content, who new players will not see before past cp160 anyway if they do the old zones first.

And overland is not trivial for an new player with junk gear and not much experience.

The optional vet mode has one problem: either it's dividing the playerbase (if you do it as a new megaserver/phase/shard/etc.), or you just get exactly that "gimping myself" debuff automatically which can be done right now for yourself.

Feanor · February 2019

To me the main issue is that boss fights are so anti-climactic now. You build up all that tension with a great story only to find out the menace to the world that would cause catastrophe folds in less than 30 seconds.

And no, this isn’t a matter of allocating CPs or not. I remember needing two weeks to finally beat Molag Bal when the game was released, and spending 3 evenings on Doshia. It was glorious. That feeling of accomplishment after an epic battle is long gone.