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Orsimer(S) vs Dunmer(S&M) vs Altmer(M) changes for tomorrow and how it might affect balance.

susmitds
susmitds
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First of all, I would ask fellow forum members not to blow the changes out of proportions. Unless devs changes the racial passives a lot from what they are on PTS right now, it wouldn't not affect PvE DD performance significantly. However, still I wanted to theorize what the effects might be on current PTS balance.

ZOS has expressed their intent to convert all three races Orsimer(S), Dunmer(S&M) and Altmer(M) into glass cannons of their respective categories. Simplification below.

Orsimer

- Max HP
- Conditional Stamina Return
++ Max Stamina
+ Conditional Health Return(Possibly a buff to current one on PTS)

Note - This is a buff for PvE DPS, if the Stamina bonus is greater than 1000 (Similar to current Dunmer on PTS, who outperform Orc by a slight margin). The sustain loss can be mitigated by other means, especially in classes with higher sustain and won't be felt much, if not using a Weapon spammable skill.

Dunmer

- Max HP
+ Max Stamina
+ Max Magicka

Note - This is buff for PvE DPS overall, no matter what the changes are.

Altmer

- Conditional Magicka Return
+ Utility

Note - This is most probably a nerf for PvE DPS overall. Might a good buff for PvP, depending on what this utility is.


Potential Issue

The primary issue comes with balancing the potential values of the stat bonuses of Dunmer with the other two, as all three races will become glass cannons. Simply speaking, the role each race will have in the greater picture of DD balance for PvE and PvP is fairly clear, apart from Dunmer.

Altmer - Magicka Static Glass Cannon
Breton - Magicka Unconditional Sustain
Orsimer - Stamina Static Glass Cannon
Redguard - Stamina Conditional Sustain
Bosmer - Stamina Unconditional Sustain
Khajiit - Dual Stat Dynamic Glass Cannon

and finally

Dunmer - Dual Stat Static Glass Cannon

And here is where the issue begins. Dunmer is competing with three different races for its niche in overall balance.

Altmer vs Dunmer - Both races are glass cannons. Essentially for Magicka PvE, for them to be equals, Dunmer will need 2000 Magicka. However, given ZOS's intents to keep the magicka and stamina bonus same, this will make Dunmer OP in the Magicka PvP department and as well, in the Stamina PvE department. No matter how good the Altmer utility is for PvP, 2000 Stamina+Flame Resist+Burning immunity will better for Magicka PvP for utility, especially for Vampires.

Orsimer vs Dunmer - Again both races are glass cannons. Now that Orsimer is a true stamina glass cannon, there is no reason for them to get beat by Dunmer in stamina raw damage. For that to happen, they will need equal or more stamina than Dunmer. If Dunmer get 2000 stamina due to the other issue, then Orcs will probably get that as well. This opens a different can of worms, that being, 2000 stamina+254 buffable Weapon Damage will shoot their stamina DPS significantly higher than all other stamina races as both already outperform the rest by a slight margin on PTS, especially on raw damage classes.

Khajiit vs Dunmer - This will be the third issue. Currently on PTS, Khajiit gets higher highs than Dunmer and lower lows than Dunmer in PvE DPS, resulting in slightly higher magicka DPS averages on crit classes, slightly lesser magicka DPS averages on non-crit classes and slightly lesser stamina DPS averages on stamina classes owing to their Dynamic Glass Cannon nature. If Dunmer gets more both of damage stats, Dunmer will get the same max parses as Khajiits but significantly better lowest parses, resulting in higher DPS averages across all classes, except Magicka Templar. And this is just PvE. For PvP, Dunmer passives blows Khajiit passives already out of the water, Weapon/Spell Damage is arguably much better a stat bonus than Weapon/Stat Crit Chance.

And even if devs somehow manage to equate Dunmer with the rest of the races, they will still be technically the best glass cannon for types of game play (Magicka/Stamina PvE/PvP). If they intentionally make Dunmer weaker or 2nd/3rd best for each individual aspect of DD, while still good for them all, there will be people complaining how Dunmer lost its value, because it is not the best in anything. From what I am seeing from a theorycrafting perspective, there will be no way appease every one for the next changes.

Thanks for reading. Keep in mind, this is all speculation. I will do proper tests once the changes are up and update with actual result data in a few days.
Edited by susmitds on February 3, 2019 4:12PM
  • Vapirko
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    From a PvP perspective I’m a bit concerned about the possible orc changes. Health is important and it’s already a nerf on PTS from Live. If they nerf it further it’s going to start being necessary to allocate stamina points to health which will negate any extra max stam we get and what we will end up with is the same stats now minus the stam return which is a flat nerf. If Dunmer gets enough max stat it’s going to possibly be worth going that direction for stam toons or to Nord or whatever. Orc max stats getting nerfed so much will not be made up for by the small amount of weapon damage and negligeable health return. Even a flat, say, 500 health regen is almost inconsequential unless you start building for it.
    Edited by Vapirko on February 3, 2019 4:16PM
  • nsmurfer
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    What is exactly a Static glass cannon and a Dynamic glass cannon?
  • Kadoin
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    nsmurfer wrote: »
    What is exactly a Static glass cannon and a Dynamic glass cannon?

    One shatters under static pressure and the other shatters under dynamic pressure. Duh! How hard can that be to understand?


    That's what it meant, right? Or at least that's what it will mean...
  • nsmurfer
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    Kadoin wrote: »
    nsmurfer wrote: »
    What is exactly a Static glass cannon and a Dynamic glass cannon?

    One shatters under static pressure and the other shatters under dynamic pressure. Duh! How hard can that be to understand?


    That's what it meant, right? Or at least that's what it will mean...

    I dunno, something tells me this is not the case.....
  • nsmurfer
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    Also Dunmer S&M seems kinky....
  • grannas211
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    They should give all the Dunmer Roleplayers their own forum section. It’s a very vocal community. I want you guys to have you own safe space
  • susmitds
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    nsmurfer wrote: »
    What is exactly a Static glass cannon and a Dynamic glass cannon?

    There are two types of damage increases.

    Static Damage Increases - Weapon Damage, Max Resources, Penetration. These increases the damage of your skills by a stable percentage increase.

    Dynamic Damage Increases - Critical Chance, Critical Damage Multiplier, Percentage based stat procs, damage procs, etc. These increase overall damage output in an unpredictable manner based on RNG.
  • ProfessorKittyhawk
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    nsmurfer wrote: »
    Also Dunmer S&M seems kinky....

    Go to the bar in Ebonhart. In the basement you will find what you seek.
  • sionIV
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    They're throwing balance out the window with the Dunmer changes.
  • pod88kk
    pod88kk
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    nsmurfer wrote: »
    Also Dunmer S&M seems kinky....

    Reminds me of the 2 Dunmer in the Ebonhart inn's basement 😉
  • majulook
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    Some more changes with PTS 4.3.2

    See here for info https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1

    Guess we will see what tomorrows PTS 4.3.2 brings
    Si vis pacem, para bellum
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    majulook wrote: »
    Some more changes with PTS 4.3.2

    See here for info https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1

    Guess we will see what tomorrows PTS 4.3.2 brings

    Those changes are exactly what we are talking about here.
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
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    I dont think you can call Dunmer glass cannon when they actually lose a lot of maxstat AND have no recovery compared to Altmer, instead getting flame resistance.
    EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
    NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    I dont think you can call Dunmer glass cannon when they actually lose a lot of maxstat AND have no recovery compared to Altmer, instead getting flame resistance.

    I don't think you read the latest changes.
  • Sinolai
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    I hope they do something more than just add damage and resources. Currently on live dunmer is the best burst damage with low sustain. On PTS it is just weaker Altmer with burning immunity. If they just add damage on dunmer they will end up being either Altmers with burning immunity or Altmer becomes the weaker Dunmers without flame immunity. They need something that separates the two from each others. Making dunmer a "hybrid" is not the answer as the way damage is calculated from max resource and how hard hybrid is sustain doesnt allow viable end game hybrid builds. This will only push dunmer higher on stamina competition, while not helping them to keep their current position in magicka competition.
  • MashmalloMan
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    These are my guesses for Orc and Dunmer

    Orc:
    500hp 500 stam -> 400hp 1000stam
    380hp and 380sta return every 4s -> 2000hp return every 4s or 1000hp every 2s

    I imagine they must of talked about how underwhelming 380 hp return was after battle spirit so I see a bigger buff in line, especially if they're taking out the stam return. They won't have 2k stam because that takes away from RG and Bosmer too much. 1k stam feels like the sweet spot for a brawler, I'd prefer if they didn't lose any hp.

    Dunmer:
    1250 mag and 1250 sta -> 1500 mag and 1500 sta
    600hp -> 500hp

    They can't really give Dunmer 2k mag and sta without being too powerful as a sta race, but only on par with Altmer, they're a hybrid race and thats not changing. Just like hybrid builds, double dipping has a price. So unfortuneatly, what makes Dunmer's special will mostly be pvp and they will always be slightly behind Altmer for mag DD, but only slightly,

    The change to increasing Dunmers max resources and decreasing Altmers sustain closes the gap even more depending on how they tune it.

    It could be a matter of perspective too, the hp from dunmer might be 1 less hp glygh an Altmer would have to sacrifice mag for. Maybe the Altmer wouldn't want vampire because of fire dmg, where the Dunmer can offset some of that negative with their fire resist/ status immunity, giving them +10% sta/mag reg,

    @MashmalloMan - PC NA

    PC Beta - 2400+ CP
  • Urvoth
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    I really hope Altmer doesn't get gutted. A bit more spell dmg is nice, but sustain nearly always wins in the end. On classes like sorc where you already have massive sustain issues, removing Altmer sustain would make them practically non viable in both PvE and PvP, especially compared to Dunmer.

    For PvP magsorcs, the extra stam and weap dmg from Dunmer is amazing since dawnbreaker is often used as an offensive ult.
  • Bigevilpeter
    Bigevilpeter
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    Where did you get these changes?
  • Faulgor
    Faulgor
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    I don't understand the changes to Orcs. How is a glass cannon a brawler? Why focus on health return when they recognize how lackluster that passive is for Imperials?

    I can see why they don't want Orcs to have damage and sustain, but giving them even more damage doesn't fit the intended brawler archetype and forces them even more into a stamina DPS role.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    Sinolai wrote: »
    I hope they do something more than just add damage and resources. Currently on live dunmer is the best burst damage with low sustain. On PTS it is just weaker Altmer with burning immunity. If they just add damage on dunmer they will end up being either Altmers with burning immunity or Altmer becomes the weaker Dunmers without flame immunity. They need something that separates the two from each others. Making dunmer a "hybrid" is not the answer as the way damage is calculated from max resource and how hard hybrid is sustain doesnt allow viable end game hybrid builds. This will only push dunmer higher on stamina competition, while not helping them to keep their current position in magicka competition.

    I completely agree. If you look through their lore, they always mention agiltity, but nothing about the passives showcase that. If you can't match the DPS potential between Altmer and Dunmer. Please... add some utility to Dunmer. Make them more interesting to play.

    Decreased roll dodge/break free cost. Increased movement speed. Idk, something interesting.

    The DPS point of view is rather boring and it's why Redguard felt behind to me even though their sustain is great for certain builds, but they had very little utility outside of sustaining a weapon ability setup like stam sorc, making bosmer and orc more appealing. Happy to see they're looking at introducing something minor for RG.
    @MashmalloMan - PC NA

    PC Beta - 2400+ CP
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    Urvoth wrote: »
    For PvP magsorcs, the extra stam and weap dmg from Dunmer is amazing since dawnbreaker is often used as an offensive ult.

    Having extra wep dmg/max stam will not increase your dmg with dawnbreaker on mag sorc.

    Ults scale off of 1 resource per category from my understanding.

    Weapon dmg or spell dmg.
    Max stam or max mag.
    Weapon crit or spell crit.
    @MashmalloMan - PC NA

    PC Beta - 2400+ CP
  • GaunterODim
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    As my personal critique

    On orcs
    I like that the stats get buffed, but I dont really see why they decreased the hp, as the health and stam max stats were pretty low anyway. But if their not trading health 1:1 for stam it could be okay.

    Really dislike the route for the conditional passive as the heal from time to time is basicly useless in pvp, espcially if they completely take away the stam regain of that. "Hang in there Fengrush, 2 more seconds and there it comes, the 200 heal."(Or something along these lines and this is true)
    And even if the passive makes a 1000 heal in pvp I wouldnt like this because usually if youre initiating an attack on an enemy, youre full health anyway, so the heal goes into nothing and on cooldown and when youre under pressure, you usually dont have the possibility to go back in and hit someone to benefit from the heal at all. (When youre under pressure, its usually not just one guy)
    Really, if this passive is about actually making them tougher, Its better to just let them have their max health along with the stam boost. A mediocre amount of max health gives you much more actual survivability than a conditional heal every 4 seconds than cant be used properly most of the time when its needed.

    Maybe a bit long, but I wanted to explain a bit where I come from there.

    On Dunmers
    I dont think that change is bad, the health there felt strange to me anyway as it came out of nowhere. Would be interesting to see how well dunmers will perform as pve dps as many already considered them being the best for stamina dds.
    Doesnt sound bad to me, but the class will still lack identity in general.

    On Altmers
    Actually thought their passives were good as they were before. Dont know what a utility buff would mean for them at all, but taking away all their sustain sources sounds like a bad change to me.
    Edited by GaunterODim on February 3, 2019 8:02PM
  • RebornV3x
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    I'm kinda worried about Altmer changes it seems from the class notes that Altmer will probably lose any and all magicka regen and sustain which might impact my sorc hopefully they buff the spell damage considerably to compensate
    Xbox One - NA GT: RebornV3x
    I also play on PC from time to time but I just wanna be left alone on there so sorry.
  • max_only
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    This isn’t hitting live servers tomorrow. Your op is misleading though... got me really worried. If this is for the PTS, the devs will find it easier in the PTS forum.
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • sionIV
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    These are my guesses for Orc and Dunmer

    Orc:
    500hp 500 stam -> 400hp 1000stam
    380hp and 380sta return every 4s -> 2000hp return every 4s or 1000hp every 2s

    I imagine they must of talked about how underwhelming 380 hp return was after battle spirit so I see a bigger buff in line, especially if they're taking out the stam return. They won't have 2k stam because that takes away from RG and Bosmer too much. 1k stam feels like the sweet spot for a brawler, I'd prefer if they didn't lose any hp.

    Dunmer:
    1250 mag and 1250 sta -> 1500 mag and 1500 sta
    600hp -> 500hp

    They can't really give Dunmer 2k mag and sta without being too powerful as a sta race, but only on par with Altmer, they're a hybrid race and thats not changing. Just like hybrid builds, double dipping has a price. So unfortuneatly, what makes Dunmer's special will mostly be pvp and they will always be slightly behind Altmer for mag DD, but only slightly,

    The change to increasing Dunmers max resources and decreasing Altmers sustain closes the gap even more depending on how they tune it.

    It could be a matter of perspective too, the hp from dunmer might be 1 less hp glygh an Altmer would have to sacrifice mag for. Maybe the Altmer wouldn't want vampire because of fire dmg, where the Dunmer can offset some of that negative with their fire resist/ status immunity, giving them +10% sta/mag reg,

    Don't be naive, they're not going to give them 500 stamina/magicka for 100 health. It'll be an even split. Dunmer will lose all of the health and magicka/stamina will go up to 1500/1500. If Orc are getting 1000 stamina or above, they're losing all of their health.
  • D0PAMINE
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    @susmitds Do you mind keeping this thread updated if the racials change? This is a useful thread and I want to bookmark it.
  • vesselwiththepestle
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    I wonder how races with no sustain but lots of damage (Dunmer) will compare to races with lots of sustain but no damage (Redguard) when bringing Stamina Recovery enchants into play.
    1000+ CP
    PC/EU Ravenwatch Daggerfall Covenant

    Give me my wings back!
  • majulook
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    The CP changes are concern me more than the base racial changes.

    "...Something to consider that is potentially huge: ZOS is looking to make flat bonuses interact consistently with CP, so your character stat values that you see on the PTS now will likely be higher than on the PTS next week..."
    Edited by majulook on February 3, 2019 11:08PM
    Si vis pacem, para bellum
  • MLGProPlayer
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    The Altmer changes are mind boggling considering the class isn't top DPS on PTS right now. If they remove all sustain, they will be forced into using magicka glyphs and sustain food. This will put them even further behind Breton and Khajiit (especially since ZOS said they will be buffing Khajiit).
  • MLGProPlayer
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    I wonder how races with no sustain but lots of damage (Dunmer) will compare to races with lots of sustain but no damage (Redguard) when bringing Stamina Recovery enchants into play.

    We can already see that with Breton vs. Altmer. Breton does more damage since they can slot a Berserker glyph (while Altmer need a magicka recovery glyph). Berserker glyph (I think it's around 400 spell damage IIRC) > 258 spell damage.

    The fact that ZOS is nerfing Altmer will just widen this gap.
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 3, 2019 11:15PM
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