Joy_Division wrote: »Nice! People would be much better off watching the entirety of the videos than devoting the same amount of time crying how their class was ruined.
Joy_Division wrote: »
If it makes you feel better, then go ahead and whine.
The answer the devs gave us in the last class rep meeting was that offensive changes were under development (which specifically they were not inclined to tell us). This strongly suggests to me that the devs are aware of what you say, namely that that sorcerers need reform offensively, and are making changes in that direction. Since the devs are already doing such, they don;t need to be convinced by whining, they need relevant, up-to-date, and accurate feedback such that the changes they do make are both precise and effective in addressing the problem areas of the class. In short, the devs don't need convincing, they need guidance.
To get back to your original question of: "And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?", from what ZOS told us in the meeting, the answer is changes and attempted improvements upcoming to how sorcerers play offensively. So incoherent whining about only being a potato-masher is not nearly going to be productive because ZOS does not to be convinced of that premise. From what they said at the meeting, it sounds like sorcerers are in the same situation that templars were in about 6 months ago, when ZOS (finally) resolved to make fundamental changes to the class because their mechanics were obsolete. If you are convinced Wrobel doesn't have a clue about sorcerers, then I personally would suggest you and other sorcerers devote more time identifying what offensive changes would profit sorcs since ZOS has already indicated they are working in that direction.
Sorc priority ought to be to ensure that changes that are made are the correct ones. That's not something whining is conducive too. IMHO of course.
You say this as if no one gave detailed feedback about the issues of the class and ways to fix them. There are dozens of threads with detailed feedback about the class. Hell even when it comes to shields there were dozens of threads with their problems and what exactly needed to be nerfed and wrobel actually believed that putting a cast time on shields was the solution while he is also wasting everyone's time, buffing and nerfing rune cage for about a year now and still no one knows what the hell he is trying to do with that skill. And you are here telling people why they dont bother with feedback anymore or why the lost their faith? Seriously?
This whole situation with balance changes every patch is so screwed up to the point where it is a big surprise when he actually manages to get something right.
Joy_Division wrote: »
If it makes you feel better, then go ahead and whine.
The answer the devs gave us in the last class rep meeting was that offensive changes were under development (which specifically they were not inclined to tell us). This strongly suggests to me that the devs are aware of what you say, namely that that sorcerers need reform offensively, and are making changes in that direction. Since the devs are already doing such, they don;t need to be convinced by whining, they need relevant, up-to-date, and accurate feedback such that the changes they do make are both precise and effective in addressing the problem areas of the class. In short, the devs don't need convincing, they need guidance.
To get back to your original question of: "And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?", from what ZOS told us in the meeting, the answer is changes and attempted improvements upcoming to how sorcerers play offensively. So incoherent whining about only being a potato-masher is not nearly going to be productive because ZOS does not to be convinced of that premise. From what they said at the meeting, it sounds like sorcerers are in the same situation that templars were in about 6 months ago, when ZOS (finally) resolved to make fundamental changes to the class because their mechanics were obsolete. If you are convinced Wrobel doesn't have a clue about sorcerers, then I personally would suggest you and other sorcerers devote more time identifying what offensive changes would profit sorcs since ZOS has already indicated they are working in that direction.
Sorc priority ought to be to ensure that changes that are made are the correct ones. That's not something whining is conducive too. IMHO of course.
Joy_Division wrote: »No, I'm not saying don't bother with feedback. I am saying if they do give feedback, it should be the sort that Malcolm provided.
Now you should all go and apologise to Malcolm for derailing his thread.. I mean its not like he asked for it by picking a dodgy name for his build...
Joy_Division wrote: »
No, I'm not saying don't bother with feedback. I am saying if they do give feedback, it should be the sort that Malcolm provided.
I think you´ll rarely see me whining and if i do it´s about the attitude and carelessness displayed towards normal players rather than the class. I´m still doing relatively well on my sorc - but i´ve been playing the class for over 4 years now and would put myself in the upper 25% of open world sorc players.
What i´m saying is that i can look past my personal experience and look at how the average sorc i meet in cyro performs and atleast try to imagine how they must feel.
I can understand why people whine - and i think the reps should too.
As far as guidance for offensive changes goes - i´ve tried to briefly explain why having a non damaging gcd for cc on a class with no sustained pressure is bad/doesn´t work.
The other problems actually don´t lie directly with sorc offense (imo) but rather with defense vs projectiles in general (which is too easy/rewarding), delayed burst being a one trick pony and the class needing too many defensive abilities/slots now due to shield changes/healingward change and obliviondmg.
But that´s an issue imo. If you deem feedback only acceptable from a source that has the time to create a 50 minute video on the class that´s problematic.
It´s also problematic as maybe someone else runs into different issues malcolm might be running into because they play different builds or don´t exclusively solo pvp - while not having the same time or dedication to create something you label as worthy feedback.
IMO the reps should be knowledgeable enough about the game and atleast one or two classes to get something even from whiney feedback and debateably nonconstructive like "runecage is useless crap now." and be able to extrapolate where the issues with the ability lie when looking at the class and it´s toolkit.
That´s why you were chosen no? Because you supposedly understand the game well.
You shouldn´t require feedback that explains the game to you.
But that´s just my opinion i guess.
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The other problems actually don´t lie directly with sorc offense (imo) but rather with defense vs projectiles in general (which is too easy/rewarding), delayed burst being a one trick pony and the class needing too many defensive abilities/slots now due to shield changes/healingward change and obliviondmg.
Joy_Division wrote: »
No, you don't whine. You are on a short list of people in that category.
I too can understand why sorcerers would whine. Hell, the class I mained was a train-wreck of obsolete mechanics being forced to stand in a dumb "house" while the game moved toward mobility (even in PvE) and got hit with dumb nerfs like losing the shards stun before it finally got an update the past two patches. But I've heard what the devs had said and it's not something in which whining is going to be productive. It's not that I deem only Malcom's feedback "acceptable," it's that anyone who watched that video will get to the heart of how the class functions (and does not) after a legitimate attempt to make the best of the changes ZOS made. That will help tell ZOS where they need to go. Not "class sucks, only can kill potatoes."
People don't have to make 50 minute videos. And yes, we are generally capable of interpreting what people mean by "runecage is useless crap now." Stiles and Fear are two of the best sorcerer PVE players on the planet. 5 of us have thousands of hours of /played on sorcerers in all types of PvP environments. But ZOS does not just get feedback from us. They still look at the forums, still look at /feedback, still look how their customers are playing the game, still have their own internal testing, still get information elsewhere from the 12 of us. And there are certain issues where ZOS's conclusions, which they believe are accurate and informed, differ from the reps's conclusions, which we feel are accurate and informed. What's going to help convince ZOS that our interpretation of the data is more suitable than theirs? Not whining, I can say that much.
I'm tired of being the bad guy for telling sorcerers what they don't want to hear. If sorcerers want to come on these forums and rant, thinking that it will spur ZOS to make productive and relevant changes, then all the more power to them. The last word from ZOS was that they were going to be making fundamental changes to sorcerer's offensively. If people want to express their anger in the belief that is the best method of guidance for these changes, then best of luck.
Joy_Division wrote: »
I'm tired of being the bad guy for telling sorcerers what they don't want to hear. If sorcerers want to come on these forums and rant, thinking that it will spur ZOS to make productive and relevant changes, then all the more power to them.
On that note, Rune Cage:
Malcolm mentioned you can combo it with Meteor to CC before Met hits. It's not true. I tested it, thoroughly, and Derra was so kind to check and confirm.
What happens is that when you cast Meteor followed by Cage, the Cage crystals will still linger in the air while the Met is falling. They will fall down very briefly after the Meteor impact. Best way to confirm is testing it on a tough NPC who survives the Meteor. On a Cyro guard (no lag, server was empty, I was alone), the stun animation was irrefutable proof. When he got stunned, he lay on the back. That's the Meteor's knockback CC. If Rune Cage had stunned him, he would have kneeled.
The delay ZOS implemented for "counterplay reasons" is slightly too long. Which means that Rune Cage is useless crap now. Even I dropped it, and I used to love it since CwC.
More over, sorcs now have zero, ZERO tools to make the Meteor unblockable. Which makes this highly telegraphed, expensive single-target ult very bad.
The solution is to slightly speed up the stun of Rune Cage. I think it's 1.6 seconds now, 1.4 should be enough. Just so it hits before Meteor.
And also give it damage, like a good DoT, or other utility to make it worth using with Force Pulse so we're not forced into Master Reach only.
Joy_Division wrote: »
Noted and agreed that ZOS has spent too much time with Rune Cage for it not to be something that all sorcs feel is good.
I don't main or alt sorc but I've played magicka on two other classes. They ought to do something with bound armor. High magicka cost to lose magicka blocking with higher mitigation sure but you still take magicka damage from blocking with frost staff. It should make all your block use magicka instead of stamina for the duration and if you block a melee attack or a gap closer your next bash stuns & immobilizes the target with extra damage or something. It is sort of a delayed off the GCD melee stun & immobilize. Probably would need more work to make it work with Immovable armor buff but that is offense added to the sorcerer defending against melee that counters bolt escape.
Or wait can't a sorc prime a proximity detonation then destro ult then bound armor and double teleport into a group and hold block keeping bound armor up and spamming sheilds with an immovable/regen pot to boot. Or maybe they can't I've never tried it.
@Vapirko
I use defending for restoration staff, and sharpened for destruction staff, with the escapist's poison. Sharpened is slightly more dmg than nirn. I really like the escapist's poison, but infused shock glyphs is another very good option for the destro staff. You have more dmg with glyphs, but less control (not only cause you can't root the enemy anymore, but also because the cc immunity uptime from escapist's poison is very good).
Lightning staff is about as good as the fire staff, cause lightning reach is more subtle (with that I mean it hits more, it's harder to avoid). It's sort of the same logic as the escapist's poison, the problem with sorc dmg isn't that it's low, it's that it's too easy to avoid. Extra control (lightning reach, escapists) is more valuable because of that imo.
Next to that you also get more concussion procs and more ult dmg form the lightning staff ofc.
If you don't have any arena staves it's still better to use a willpower staff instead of a random one.
Thanks! I played around with the lightning staff today it’s defintitely more reliable and slightly more helpful in out numbered fights. I’m just using full 5pc shackle and 5pc bright throat now, not a random staff. Again, great video!