The Murkmire Magicka Sorcerer PvP Guide & Builds

mook-eb16_ESO · November 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Nice! People would be much better off watching the entirety of the videos than devoting the same amount of time crying how their class was ruined.

I think the point here is Malcolm is prob one of the top players and unless you're in this league you won't find this class fun anymore.

pieratsos · November 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Minno

According to the videos I've seen Malcolm is a player who does two things extremely well - use terrain/LoS and have the feel for the offensive window. So, yes, compared to your average Sorc he is really good in my opinion. My comment wasn't a knock against Malcolm or his guide - it was to point out that @Joy_Division saying a class isn't broken because one of the best players on it can make it work still is somewhat problematic. Should have quoted correctly though, my mistake.

I didn't say the class isn't broken. I said it would be more productive to watch the video than come onto these forums and whine - based on hearsay, assumption, speculation, not actual experience - that their class sucks now.

Because just whining on these forums based on nothing, no evidence, no videos, no math, no demonstration of even trying to make use of the new mechanics, has been so historically helpful in convincing ZOS to revert the decisions they made. There is an absolute track record of success that we can point to and see just how effective that route is.

You don't think it would more compelling to ZOS to demonstrate that an honest and intelligent effort was made in order to work with the changes to make a build that is effective and fun to play? That an assessment of the class's strengths and weaknesses and what ought to be looked into from a specific and multi-varied analysis is perhaps a little more valuable than "class sucks, it can only kill potatoes now."? That the sort of feedback coming from an very in-depth and up-to-date current analysis as such provided by Malcolm would not provide superior feedback than the speculative rants that sees the class through what it can no longer do, rather than how the class actually is performing after the changes were made?

And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?
Resulting in the statement: Sorc is a potatomasher?

Edit: Take the latest EU tournament as an example. Dan (the only magica sorc) played objectively very well and probably had better movement than any of his opponents.
He was only able to win one fight by killing his opponent - and that only after the judges changed the skill loadout of both players to lower their defense.

This perfectly showcases the issues of the class and why it gets mostly labled a potatomasher by experienced players. It is somewhat easy to not die to a sorc. Every class has hardcounters for parts or the entirety of their burst combo.
The burst is delayed and telegraphed (even worse since murkmire fragment delay) which makes utilizing dodge, block or any class based defense a lot easier than against any other class.
It´s further reinforced by sorc being a pure burst class - no access to sustained pressure via class skills and there is no access to sustained pressure from destruction staff. This results in sorc being as easily countered as having enough effective HP (mitigation + HP) to simply tank the burst and heal up.
Murkmire aggravated these issues by making barspace problems - which had been highlighted in the very first classrep meeting with the devs - worse because sorc now needs to slot dedicated healing (due to the healing ward nerfs) and an armor skill on top of the previously already cluttered bars.
I could now continue how CC is also a massive issue due purely burst dmg and how that in combination with shields (burst defense + high requirement of gcds for defense) leads to utilizing a cc that deals no dmg being massively stupid if you ever want to kill an opponent (taking frag cc was bad, runecage with no dmg at all is terrible, masterstaff is still almost mandatory).
But i´ll stop here - because i´ve gone this way on multiple different occasions - and it´s quite frankly tiring to simply always read the same thing about stopping to whine and provide constructive feedback.

The feedback is there. Constructive and nonconstructive. Take it and stop passing the ball back to the players.
Maybe when the large majority of feedback is negative and getting increasingly nonconstructive it´s because people are getting tired of repeating the same things with literally nothing getting adressed but rather things are objectively getting worse (barspace, lack of healing to name two specifically).

Part of this is due to obliviondmg being broken. But since it seems oblivion dmg isn´t going anywhere this is where the issues of the class lie.

If it makes you feel better, then go ahead and whine.

The answer the devs gave us in the last class rep meeting was that offensive changes were under development (which specifically they were not inclined to tell us). This strongly suggests to me that the devs are aware of what you say, namely that that sorcerers need reform offensively, and are making changes in that direction. Since the devs are already doing such, they don;t need to be convinced by whining, they need relevant, up-to-date, and accurate feedback such that the changes they do make are both precise and effective in addressing the problem areas of the class. In short, the devs don't need convincing, they need guidance.

To get back to your original question of: "And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?", from what ZOS told us in the meeting, the answer is changes and attempted improvements upcoming to how sorcerers play offensively. So incoherent whining about only being a potato-masher is not nearly going to be productive because ZOS does not to be convinced of that premise. From what they said at the meeting, it sounds like sorcerers are in the same situation that templars were in about 6 months ago, when ZOS (finally) resolved to make fundamental changes to the class because their mechanics were obsolete. If you are convinced Wrobel doesn't have a clue about sorcerers, then I personally would suggest you and other sorcerers devote more time identifying what offensive changes would profit sorcs since ZOS has already indicated they are working in that direction.
Sorc priority ought to be to ensure that changes that are made are the correct ones. That's not something whining is conducive too. IMHO of course.

You say this as if no one gave detailed feedback about the issues of the class and ways to fix them. There are dozens of threads with detailed feedback about the class. Hell even when it comes to shields there were dozens of threads with their problems and what exactly needed to be nerfed and wrobel actually believed that putting a cast time on shields was the solution while he is also wasting everyone's time, buffing and nerfing rune cage for about a year now and still no one knows what the hell he is trying to do with that skill. And you are here telling people why they dont bother with feedback anymore or why the lost their faith? Seriously?

This whole situation with balance changes every patch is so screwed up to the point where it is a big surprise when he actually manages to get something right.

Joy_Division · November 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

show previous quotes

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Minno

According to the videos I've seen Malcolm is a player who does two things extremely well - use terrain/LoS and have the feel for the offensive window. So, yes, compared to your average Sorc he is really good in my opinion. My comment wasn't a knock against Malcolm or his guide - it was to point out that @Joy_Division saying a class isn't broken because one of the best players on it can make it work still is somewhat problematic. Should have quoted correctly though, my mistake.

I didn't say the class isn't broken. I said it would be more productive to watch the video than come onto these forums and whine - based on hearsay, assumption, speculation, not actual experience - that their class sucks now.

Because just whining on these forums based on nothing, no evidence, no videos, no math, no demonstration of even trying to make use of the new mechanics, has been so historically helpful in convincing ZOS to revert the decisions they made. There is an absolute track record of success that we can point to and see just how effective that route is.

You don't think it would more compelling to ZOS to demonstrate that an honest and intelligent effort was made in order to work with the changes to make a build that is effective and fun to play? That an assessment of the class's strengths and weaknesses and what ought to be looked into from a specific and multi-varied analysis is perhaps a little more valuable than "class sucks, it can only kill potatoes now."? That the sort of feedback coming from an very in-depth and up-to-date current analysis as such provided by Malcolm would not provide superior feedback than the speculative rants that sees the class through what it can no longer do, rather than how the class actually is performing after the changes were made?

And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?
Resulting in the statement: Sorc is a potatomasher?

Edit: Take the latest EU tournament as an example. Dan (the only magica sorc) played objectively very well and probably had better movement than any of his opponents.
He was only able to win one fight by killing his opponent - and that only after the judges changed the skill loadout of both players to lower their defense.

This perfectly showcases the issues of the class and why it gets mostly labled a potatomasher by experienced players. It is somewhat easy to not die to a sorc. Every class has hardcounters for parts or the entirety of their burst combo.
The burst is delayed and telegraphed (even worse since murkmire fragment delay) which makes utilizing dodge, block or any class based defense a lot easier than against any other class.
It´s further reinforced by sorc being a pure burst class - no access to sustained pressure via class skills and there is no access to sustained pressure from destruction staff. This results in sorc being as easily countered as having enough effective HP (mitigation + HP) to simply tank the burst and heal up.
Murkmire aggravated these issues by making barspace problems - which had been highlighted in the very first classrep meeting with the devs - worse because sorc now needs to slot dedicated healing (due to the healing ward nerfs) and an armor skill on top of the previously already cluttered bars.
I could now continue how CC is also a massive issue due purely burst dmg and how that in combination with shields (burst defense + high requirement of gcds for defense) leads to utilizing a cc that deals no dmg being massively stupid if you ever want to kill an opponent (taking frag cc was bad, runecage with no dmg at all is terrible, masterstaff is still almost mandatory).
But i´ll stop here - because i´ve gone this way on multiple different occasions - and it´s quite frankly tiring to simply always read the same thing about stopping to whine and provide constructive feedback.

The feedback is there. Constructive and nonconstructive. Take it and stop passing the ball back to the players.
Maybe when the large majority of feedback is negative and getting increasingly nonconstructive it´s because people are getting tired of repeating the same things with literally nothing getting adressed but rather things are objectively getting worse (barspace, lack of healing to name two specifically).

Part of this is due to obliviondmg being broken. But since it seems oblivion dmg isn´t going anywhere this is where the issues of the class lie.

If it makes you feel better, then go ahead and whine.

The answer the devs gave us in the last class rep meeting was that offensive changes were under development (which specifically they were not inclined to tell us). This strongly suggests to me that the devs are aware of what you say, namely that that sorcerers need reform offensively, and are making changes in that direction. Since the devs are already doing such, they don;t need to be convinced by whining, they need relevant, up-to-date, and accurate feedback such that the changes they do make are both precise and effective in addressing the problem areas of the class. In short, the devs don't need convincing, they need guidance.

To get back to your original question of: "And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?", from what ZOS told us in the meeting, the answer is changes and attempted improvements upcoming to how sorcerers play offensively. So incoherent whining about only being a potato-masher is not nearly going to be productive because ZOS does not to be convinced of that premise. From what they said at the meeting, it sounds like sorcerers are in the same situation that templars were in about 6 months ago, when ZOS (finally) resolved to make fundamental changes to the class because their mechanics were obsolete. If you are convinced Wrobel doesn't have a clue about sorcerers, then I personally would suggest you and other sorcerers devote more time identifying what offensive changes would profit sorcs since ZOS has already indicated they are working in that direction.
Sorc priority ought to be to ensure that changes that are made are the correct ones. That's not something whining is conducive too. IMHO of course.

You say this as if no one gave detailed feedback about the issues of the class and ways to fix them. There are dozens of threads with detailed feedback about the class. Hell even when it comes to shields there were dozens of threads with their problems and what exactly needed to be nerfed and wrobel actually believed that putting a cast time on shields was the solution while he is also wasting everyone's time, buffing and nerfing rune cage for about a year now and still no one knows what the hell he is trying to do with that skill. And you are here telling people why they dont bother with feedback anymore or why the lost their faith? Seriously?

This whole situation with balance changes every patch is so screwed up to the point where it is a big surprise when he actually manages to get something right.

No, I'm not saying don't bother with feedback. I am saying if they do give feedback, it should be the sort that Malcolm provided.

Derra · November 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Minno

According to the videos I've seen Malcolm is a player who does two things extremely well - use terrain/LoS and have the feel for the offensive window. So, yes, compared to your average Sorc he is really good in my opinion. My comment wasn't a knock against Malcolm or his guide - it was to point out that @Joy_Division saying a class isn't broken because one of the best players on it can make it work still is somewhat problematic. Should have quoted correctly though, my mistake.

I didn't say the class isn't broken. I said it would be more productive to watch the video than come onto these forums and whine - based on hearsay, assumption, speculation, not actual experience - that their class sucks now.

Because just whining on these forums based on nothing, no evidence, no videos, no math, no demonstration of even trying to make use of the new mechanics, has been so historically helpful in convincing ZOS to revert the decisions they made. There is an absolute track record of success that we can point to and see just how effective that route is.

You don't think it would more compelling to ZOS to demonstrate that an honest and intelligent effort was made in order to work with the changes to make a build that is effective and fun to play? That an assessment of the class's strengths and weaknesses and what ought to be looked into from a specific and multi-varied analysis is perhaps a little more valuable than "class sucks, it can only kill potatoes now."? That the sort of feedback coming from an very in-depth and up-to-date current analysis as such provided by Malcolm would not provide superior feedback than the speculative rants that sees the class through what it can no longer do, rather than how the class actually is performing after the changes were made?

And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?
Resulting in the statement: Sorc is a potatomasher?

Edit: Take the latest EU tournament as an example. Dan (the only magica sorc) played objectively very well and probably had better movement than any of his opponents.
He was only able to win one fight by killing his opponent - and that only after the judges changed the skill loadout of both players to lower their defense.

This perfectly showcases the issues of the class and why it gets mostly labled a potatomasher by experienced players. It is somewhat easy to not die to a sorc. Every class has hardcounters for parts or the entirety of their burst combo.
The burst is delayed and telegraphed (even worse since murkmire fragment delay) which makes utilizing dodge, block or any class based defense a lot easier than against any other class.
It´s further reinforced by sorc being a pure burst class - no access to sustained pressure via class skills and there is no access to sustained pressure from destruction staff. This results in sorc being as easily countered as having enough effective HP (mitigation + HP) to simply tank the burst and heal up.
Murkmire aggravated these issues by making barspace problems - which had been highlighted in the very first classrep meeting with the devs - worse because sorc now needs to slot dedicated healing (due to the healing ward nerfs) and an armor skill on top of the previously already cluttered bars.
I could now continue how CC is also a massive issue due purely burst dmg and how that in combination with shields (burst defense + high requirement of gcds for defense) leads to utilizing a cc that deals no dmg being massively stupid if you ever want to kill an opponent (taking frag cc was bad, runecage with no dmg at all is terrible, masterstaff is still almost mandatory).
But i´ll stop here - because i´ve gone this way on multiple different occasions - and it´s quite frankly tiring to simply always read the same thing about stopping to whine and provide constructive feedback.

The feedback is there. Constructive and nonconstructive. Take it and stop passing the ball back to the players.
Maybe when the large majority of feedback is negative and getting increasingly nonconstructive it´s because people are getting tired of repeating the same things with literally nothing getting adressed but rather things are objectively getting worse (barspace, lack of healing to name two specifically).

Part of this is due to obliviondmg being broken. But since it seems oblivion dmg isn´t going anywhere this is where the issues of the class lie.

If it makes you feel better, then go ahead and whine.

The answer the devs gave us in the last class rep meeting was that offensive changes were under development (which specifically they were not inclined to tell us). This strongly suggests to me that the devs are aware of what you say, namely that that sorcerers need reform offensively, and are making changes in that direction. Since the devs are already doing such, they don;t need to be convinced by whining, they need relevant, up-to-date, and accurate feedback such that the changes they do make are both precise and effective in addressing the problem areas of the class. In short, the devs don't need convincing, they need guidance.

To get back to your original question of: "And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?", from what ZOS told us in the meeting, the answer is changes and attempted improvements upcoming to how sorcerers play offensively. So incoherent whining about only being a potato-masher is not nearly going to be productive because ZOS does not to be convinced of that premise. From what they said at the meeting, it sounds like sorcerers are in the same situation that templars were in about 6 months ago, when ZOS (finally) resolved to make fundamental changes to the class because their mechanics were obsolete. If you are convinced Wrobel doesn't have a clue about sorcerers, then I personally would suggest you and other sorcerers devote more time identifying what offensive changes would profit sorcs since ZOS has already indicated they are working in that direction.
Sorc priority ought to be to ensure that changes that are made are the correct ones. That's not something whining is conducive too. IMHO of course.

I think you´ll rarely see me whining and if i do it´s about the attitude and carelessness displayed towards normal players rather than the class. I´m still doing relatively well on my sorc - but i´ve been playing the class for over 4 years now and would put myself in the upper 25% of open world sorc players.

What i´m saying is that i can look past my personal experience and look at how the average sorc i meet in cyro performs and atleast try to imagine how they must feel.
I can understand why people whine - and i think the reps should too.

As far as guidance for offensive changes goes - i´ve tried to briefly explain why having a non damaging gcd for cc on a class with no sustained pressure is bad/doesn´t work.
The other problems actually don´t lie directly with sorc offense (imo) but rather with defense vs projectiles in general (which is too easy/rewarding), delayed burst being a one trick pony and the class needing too many defensive abilities/slots now due to shield changes/healingward change and obliviondmg.

Joy_Division wrote: »

No, I'm not saying don't bother with feedback. I am saying if they do give feedback, it should be the sort that Malcolm provided.

But that´s an issue imo. If you deem feedback only acceptable from a source that has the time to create a 50 minute video on the class that´s problematic.
It´s also problematic as maybe someone else runs into different issues malcolm might be running into because they play different builds or don´t exclusively solo pvp - while not having the same time or dedication to create something you label as worthy feedback.

IMO the reps should be knowledgeable enough about the game and atleast one or two classes to get something even from whiney feedback and debateably nonconstructive like "runecage is useless crap now." and be able to extrapolate where the issues with the ability lie when looking at the class and it´s toolkit.
That´s why you were chosen no? Because you supposedly understand the game well.

You shouldn´t require feedback that explains the game to you.
But that´s just my opinion i guess.

Biro123 · November 2018

Now you should all go and apologise to Malcolm for derailing his thread.. I mean its not like he asked for it by picking a dodgy name for his build...

Derra · November 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Now you should all go and apologise to Malcolm for derailing his thread.. I mean its not like he asked for it by picking a dodgy name for his build...

Atleast we keep it at the top

He did good work here.

Biro123 · November 2018

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

Biro123 wrote: »

Now you should all go and apologise to Malcolm for derailing his thread.. I mean its not like he asked for it by picking a dodgy name for his build...

Atleast we keep it at the top

He did good work here.

Always does.

pieratsos · November 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

show previous quotes

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Minno

According to the videos I've seen Malcolm is a player who does two things extremely well - use terrain/LoS and have the feel for the offensive window. So, yes, compared to your average Sorc he is really good in my opinion. My comment wasn't a knock against Malcolm or his guide - it was to point out that @Joy_Division saying a class isn't broken because one of the best players on it can make it work still is somewhat problematic. Should have quoted correctly though, my mistake.

I didn't say the class isn't broken. I said it would be more productive to watch the video than come onto these forums and whine - based on hearsay, assumption, speculation, not actual experience - that their class sucks now.

Because just whining on these forums based on nothing, no evidence, no videos, no math, no demonstration of even trying to make use of the new mechanics, has been so historically helpful in convincing ZOS to revert the decisions they made. There is an absolute track record of success that we can point to and see just how effective that route is.

You don't think it would more compelling to ZOS to demonstrate that an honest and intelligent effort was made in order to work with the changes to make a build that is effective and fun to play? That an assessment of the class's strengths and weaknesses and what ought to be looked into from a specific and multi-varied analysis is perhaps a little more valuable than "class sucks, it can only kill potatoes now."? That the sort of feedback coming from an very in-depth and up-to-date current analysis as such provided by Malcolm would not provide superior feedback than the speculative rants that sees the class through what it can no longer do, rather than how the class actually is performing after the changes were made?

And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?
Resulting in the statement: Sorc is a potatomasher?

Edit: Take the latest EU tournament as an example. Dan (the only magica sorc) played objectively very well and probably had better movement than any of his opponents.
He was only able to win one fight by killing his opponent - and that only after the judges changed the skill loadout of both players to lower their defense.

This perfectly showcases the issues of the class and why it gets mostly labled a potatomasher by experienced players. It is somewhat easy to not die to a sorc. Every class has hardcounters for parts or the entirety of their burst combo.
The burst is delayed and telegraphed (even worse since murkmire fragment delay) which makes utilizing dodge, block or any class based defense a lot easier than against any other class.
It´s further reinforced by sorc being a pure burst class - no access to sustained pressure via class skills and there is no access to sustained pressure from destruction staff. This results in sorc being as easily countered as having enough effective HP (mitigation + HP) to simply tank the burst and heal up.
Murkmire aggravated these issues by making barspace problems - which had been highlighted in the very first classrep meeting with the devs - worse because sorc now needs to slot dedicated healing (due to the healing ward nerfs) and an armor skill on top of the previously already cluttered bars.
I could now continue how CC is also a massive issue due purely burst dmg and how that in combination with shields (burst defense + high requirement of gcds for defense) leads to utilizing a cc that deals no dmg being massively stupid if you ever want to kill an opponent (taking frag cc was bad, runecage with no dmg at all is terrible, masterstaff is still almost mandatory).
But i´ll stop here - because i´ve gone this way on multiple different occasions - and it´s quite frankly tiring to simply always read the same thing about stopping to whine and provide constructive feedback.

The feedback is there. Constructive and nonconstructive. Take it and stop passing the ball back to the players.
Maybe when the large majority of feedback is negative and getting increasingly nonconstructive it´s because people are getting tired of repeating the same things with literally nothing getting adressed but rather things are objectively getting worse (barspace, lack of healing to name two specifically).

Part of this is due to obliviondmg being broken. But since it seems oblivion dmg isn´t going anywhere this is where the issues of the class lie.

If it makes you feel better, then go ahead and whine.

The answer the devs gave us in the last class rep meeting was that offensive changes were under development (which specifically they were not inclined to tell us). This strongly suggests to me that the devs are aware of what you say, namely that that sorcerers need reform offensively, and are making changes in that direction. Since the devs are already doing such, they don;t need to be convinced by whining, they need relevant, up-to-date, and accurate feedback such that the changes they do make are both precise and effective in addressing the problem areas of the class. In short, the devs don't need convincing, they need guidance.

To get back to your original question of: "And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?", from what ZOS told us in the meeting, the answer is changes and attempted improvements upcoming to how sorcerers play offensively. So incoherent whining about only being a potato-masher is not nearly going to be productive because ZOS does not to be convinced of that premise. From what they said at the meeting, it sounds like sorcerers are in the same situation that templars were in about 6 months ago, when ZOS (finally) resolved to make fundamental changes to the class because their mechanics were obsolete. If you are convinced Wrobel doesn't have a clue about sorcerers, then I personally would suggest you and other sorcerers devote more time identifying what offensive changes would profit sorcs since ZOS has already indicated they are working in that direction.
Sorc priority ought to be to ensure that changes that are made are the correct ones. That's not something whining is conducive too. IMHO of course.

You say this as if no one gave detailed feedback about the issues of the class and ways to fix them. There are dozens of threads with detailed feedback about the class. Hell even when it comes to shields there were dozens of threads with their problems and what exactly needed to be nerfed and wrobel actually believed that putting a cast time on shields was the solution while he is also wasting everyone's time, buffing and nerfing rune cage for about a year now and still no one knows what the hell he is trying to do with that skill. And you are here telling people why they dont bother with feedback anymore or why the lost their faith? Seriously?

This whole situation with balance changes every patch is so screwed up to the point where it is a big surprise when he actually manages to get something right.

No, I'm not saying don't bother with feedback. I am saying if they do give feedback, it should be the sort that Malcolm provided.

But thats what people tell you. They did give feedback like that. Many many many times. The forum is filled with them. And wrobel just constantly ignores everything to make his dumb changes which make zero sense because obviously nothing changes his "vision". He even ignored everything the reps told him. So again, what exactly do u expect from people? At some point u just wonder if its even worth to bother with feedback anymore. Its like banging ur head against a wall.

Joy_Division · November 2018

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Minno

According to the videos I've seen Malcolm is a player who does two things extremely well - use terrain/LoS and have the feel for the offensive window. So, yes, compared to your average Sorc he is really good in my opinion. My comment wasn't a knock against Malcolm or his guide - it was to point out that @Joy_Division saying a class isn't broken because one of the best players on it can make it work still is somewhat problematic. Should have quoted correctly though, my mistake.

I didn't say the class isn't broken. I said it would be more productive to watch the video than come onto these forums and whine - based on hearsay, assumption, speculation, not actual experience - that their class sucks now.

Because just whining on these forums based on nothing, no evidence, no videos, no math, no demonstration of even trying to make use of the new mechanics, has been so historically helpful in convincing ZOS to revert the decisions they made. There is an absolute track record of success that we can point to and see just how effective that route is.

You don't think it would more compelling to ZOS to demonstrate that an honest and intelligent effort was made in order to work with the changes to make a build that is effective and fun to play? That an assessment of the class's strengths and weaknesses and what ought to be looked into from a specific and multi-varied analysis is perhaps a little more valuable than "class sucks, it can only kill potatoes now."? That the sort of feedback coming from an very in-depth and up-to-date current analysis as such provided by Malcolm would not provide superior feedback than the speculative rants that sees the class through what it can no longer do, rather than how the class actually is performing after the changes were made?

And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?
Resulting in the statement: Sorc is a potatomasher?

Edit: Take the latest EU tournament as an example. Dan (the only magica sorc) played objectively very well and probably had better movement than any of his opponents.
He was only able to win one fight by killing his opponent - and that only after the judges changed the skill loadout of both players to lower their defense.

This perfectly showcases the issues of the class and why it gets mostly labled a potatomasher by experienced players. It is somewhat easy to not die to a sorc. Every class has hardcounters for parts or the entirety of their burst combo.
The burst is delayed and telegraphed (even worse since murkmire fragment delay) which makes utilizing dodge, block or any class based defense a lot easier than against any other class.
It´s further reinforced by sorc being a pure burst class - no access to sustained pressure via class skills and there is no access to sustained pressure from destruction staff. This results in sorc being as easily countered as having enough effective HP (mitigation + HP) to simply tank the burst and heal up.
Murkmire aggravated these issues by making barspace problems - which had been highlighted in the very first classrep meeting with the devs - worse because sorc now needs to slot dedicated healing (due to the healing ward nerfs) and an armor skill on top of the previously already cluttered bars.
I could now continue how CC is also a massive issue due purely burst dmg and how that in combination with shields (burst defense + high requirement of gcds for defense) leads to utilizing a cc that deals no dmg being massively stupid if you ever want to kill an opponent (taking frag cc was bad, runecage with no dmg at all is terrible, masterstaff is still almost mandatory).
But i´ll stop here - because i´ve gone this way on multiple different occasions - and it´s quite frankly tiring to simply always read the same thing about stopping to whine and provide constructive feedback.

The feedback is there. Constructive and nonconstructive. Take it and stop passing the ball back to the players.
Maybe when the large majority of feedback is negative and getting increasingly nonconstructive it´s because people are getting tired of repeating the same things with literally nothing getting adressed but rather things are objectively getting worse (barspace, lack of healing to name two specifically).

Part of this is due to obliviondmg being broken. But since it seems oblivion dmg isn´t going anywhere this is where the issues of the class lie.

If it makes you feel better, then go ahead and whine.

The answer the devs gave us in the last class rep meeting was that offensive changes were under development (which specifically they were not inclined to tell us). This strongly suggests to me that the devs are aware of what you say, namely that that sorcerers need reform offensively, and are making changes in that direction. Since the devs are already doing such, they don;t need to be convinced by whining, they need relevant, up-to-date, and accurate feedback such that the changes they do make are both precise and effective in addressing the problem areas of the class. In short, the devs don't need convincing, they need guidance.

To get back to your original question of: "And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?", from what ZOS told us in the meeting, the answer is changes and attempted improvements upcoming to how sorcerers play offensively. So incoherent whining about only being a potato-masher is not nearly going to be productive because ZOS does not to be convinced of that premise. From what they said at the meeting, it sounds like sorcerers are in the same situation that templars were in about 6 months ago, when ZOS (finally) resolved to make fundamental changes to the class because their mechanics were obsolete. If you are convinced Wrobel doesn't have a clue about sorcerers, then I personally would suggest you and other sorcerers devote more time identifying what offensive changes would profit sorcs since ZOS has already indicated they are working in that direction.
Sorc priority ought to be to ensure that changes that are made are the correct ones. That's not something whining is conducive too. IMHO of course.

I think you´ll rarely see me whining and if i do it´s about the attitude and carelessness displayed towards normal players rather than the class. I´m still doing relatively well on my sorc - but i´ve been playing the class for over 4 years now and would put myself in the upper 25% of open world sorc players.

What i´m saying is that i can look past my personal experience and look at how the average sorc i meet in cyro performs and atleast try to imagine how they must feel.
I can understand why people whine - and i think the reps should too.

As far as guidance for offensive changes goes - i´ve tried to briefly explain why having a non damaging gcd for cc on a class with no sustained pressure is bad/doesn´t work.
The other problems actually don´t lie directly with sorc offense (imo) but rather with defense vs projectiles in general (which is too easy/rewarding), delayed burst being a one trick pony and the class needing too many defensive abilities/slots now due to shield changes/healingward change and obliviondmg.

show previous quotes

Joy_Division wrote: »

No, I'm not saying don't bother with feedback. I am saying if they do give feedback, it should be the sort that Malcolm provided.

But that´s an issue imo. If you deem feedback only acceptable from a source that has the time to create a 50 minute video on the class that´s problematic.
It´s also problematic as maybe someone else runs into different issues malcolm might be running into because they play different builds or don´t exclusively solo pvp - while not having the same time or dedication to create something you label as worthy feedback.

IMO the reps should be knowledgeable enough about the game and atleast one or two classes to get something even from whiney feedback and debateably nonconstructive like "runecage is useless crap now." and be able to extrapolate where the issues with the ability lie when looking at the class and it´s toolkit.
That´s why you were chosen no? Because you supposedly understand the game well.

You shouldn´t require feedback that explains the game to you.
But that´s just my opinion i guess.

No, you don't whine. You are on a short list of people in that category.

I too can understand why sorcerers would whine. Hell, the class I mained was a train-wreck of obsolete mechanics being forced to stand in a dumb "house" while the game moved toward mobility (even in PvE) and got hit with dumb nerfs like losing the shards stun before it finally got an update the past two patches. But I've heard what the devs had said and it's not something in which whining is going to be productive. It's not that I deem only Malcom's feedback "acceptable," it's that anyone who watched that video will get to the heart of how the class functions (and does not) after a legitimate attempt to make the best of the changes ZOS made. That will help tell ZOS where they need to go. Not "class sucks, only can kill potatoes."

People don't have to make 50 minute videos. And yes, we are generally capable of interpreting what people mean by "runecage is useless crap now." Stiles and Fear are two of the best sorcerer PVE players on the planet. 5 of us have thousands of hours of /played on sorcerers in all types of PvP environments. But ZOS does not just get feedback from us. They still look at the forums, still look at /feedback, still look how their customers are playing the game, still have their own internal testing, still get information elsewhere from the 12 of us. And there are certain issues where ZOS's conclusions, which they believe are accurate and informed, differ from the reps's conclusions, which we feel are accurate and informed. What's going to help convince ZOS that our interpretation of the data is more suitable than theirs? Not whining, I can say that much.

I'm tired of being the bad guy for telling sorcerers what they don't want to hear. If sorcerers want to come on these forums and rant, thinking that it will spur ZOS to make productive and relevant changes, then all the more power to them. The last word from ZOS was that they were going to be making fundamental changes to sorcerer's offensively. If people want to express their anger in the belief that is the best method of guidance for these changes, then best of luck.

pzschrek · November 2018

Derra wrote: »

[
The other problems actually don´t lie directly with sorc offense (imo) but rather with defense vs projectiles in general (which is too easy/rewarding), delayed burst being a one trick pony and the class needing too many defensive abilities/slots now due to shield changes/healingward change and obliviondmg.

I've had a surprising amount of trouble finding a way to usefully articulate how I feel about the changes to magsorc over time. Other classes have had it worse of course, and the hard part to explaining it is it's like it isn't just one overarching thing, not even the shield changes tbh. But I think you've hit the essence of it here. It took me time to realize that I can live with the healing ward nerf, but then I open another hole in my build or bar to cover it, damage wise or defense-wise. And since I built for damage to try and kill someone in the tank meta that the universe consists of now, since I've had to change to live long enough to get off a burst, the burst is weaker and I have a harder time killing anything. Running my old build with a brawler class to distract, control, and pressure is exponentially more effective, more so even than before, so I've tried to partner up more than before the patch.

As a side note here, I think most of the time when I've personally seen Joy in cyro it's been on his magsorc, so it's not like he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Biro123 · November 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Minno

According to the videos I've seen Malcolm is a player who does two things extremely well - use terrain/LoS and have the feel for the offensive window. So, yes, compared to your average Sorc he is really good in my opinion. My comment wasn't a knock against Malcolm or his guide - it was to point out that @Joy_Division saying a class isn't broken because one of the best players on it can make it work still is somewhat problematic. Should have quoted correctly though, my mistake.

I didn't say the class isn't broken. I said it would be more productive to watch the video than come onto these forums and whine - based on hearsay, assumption, speculation, not actual experience - that their class sucks now.

Because just whining on these forums based on nothing, no evidence, no videos, no math, no demonstration of even trying to make use of the new mechanics, has been so historically helpful in convincing ZOS to revert the decisions they made. There is an absolute track record of success that we can point to and see just how effective that route is.

You don't think it would more compelling to ZOS to demonstrate that an honest and intelligent effort was made in order to work with the changes to make a build that is effective and fun to play? That an assessment of the class's strengths and weaknesses and what ought to be looked into from a specific and multi-varied analysis is perhaps a little more valuable than "class sucks, it can only kill potatoes now."? That the sort of feedback coming from an very in-depth and up-to-date current analysis as such provided by Malcolm would not provide superior feedback than the speculative rants that sees the class through what it can no longer do, rather than how the class actually is performing after the changes were made?

And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?
Resulting in the statement: Sorc is a potatomasher?

Edit: Take the latest EU tournament as an example. Dan (the only magica sorc) played objectively very well and probably had better movement than any of his opponents.
He was only able to win one fight by killing his opponent - and that only after the judges changed the skill loadout of both players to lower their defense.

This perfectly showcases the issues of the class and why it gets mostly labled a potatomasher by experienced players. It is somewhat easy to not die to a sorc. Every class has hardcounters for parts or the entirety of their burst combo.
The burst is delayed and telegraphed (even worse since murkmire fragment delay) which makes utilizing dodge, block or any class based defense a lot easier than against any other class.
It´s further reinforced by sorc being a pure burst class - no access to sustained pressure via class skills and there is no access to sustained pressure from destruction staff. This results in sorc being as easily countered as having enough effective HP (mitigation + HP) to simply tank the burst and heal up.
Murkmire aggravated these issues by making barspace problems - which had been highlighted in the very first classrep meeting with the devs - worse because sorc now needs to slot dedicated healing (due to the healing ward nerfs) and an armor skill on top of the previously already cluttered bars.
I could now continue how CC is also a massive issue due purely burst dmg and how that in combination with shields (burst defense + high requirement of gcds for defense) leads to utilizing a cc that deals no dmg being massively stupid if you ever want to kill an opponent (taking frag cc was bad, runecage with no dmg at all is terrible, masterstaff is still almost mandatory).
But i´ll stop here - because i´ve gone this way on multiple different occasions - and it´s quite frankly tiring to simply always read the same thing about stopping to whine and provide constructive feedback.

The feedback is there. Constructive and nonconstructive. Take it and stop passing the ball back to the players.
Maybe when the large majority of feedback is negative and getting increasingly nonconstructive it´s because people are getting tired of repeating the same things with literally nothing getting adressed but rather things are objectively getting worse (barspace, lack of healing to name two specifically).

Part of this is due to obliviondmg being broken. But since it seems oblivion dmg isn´t going anywhere this is where the issues of the class lie.

If it makes you feel better, then go ahead and whine.

The answer the devs gave us in the last class rep meeting was that offensive changes were under development (which specifically they were not inclined to tell us). This strongly suggests to me that the devs are aware of what you say, namely that that sorcerers need reform offensively, and are making changes in that direction. Since the devs are already doing such, they don;t need to be convinced by whining, they need relevant, up-to-date, and accurate feedback such that the changes they do make are both precise and effective in addressing the problem areas of the class. In short, the devs don't need convincing, they need guidance.

To get back to your original question of: "And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?", from what ZOS told us in the meeting, the answer is changes and attempted improvements upcoming to how sorcerers play offensively. So incoherent whining about only being a potato-masher is not nearly going to be productive because ZOS does not to be convinced of that premise. From what they said at the meeting, it sounds like sorcerers are in the same situation that templars were in about 6 months ago, when ZOS (finally) resolved to make fundamental changes to the class because their mechanics were obsolete. If you are convinced Wrobel doesn't have a clue about sorcerers, then I personally would suggest you and other sorcerers devote more time identifying what offensive changes would profit sorcs since ZOS has already indicated they are working in that direction.
Sorc priority ought to be to ensure that changes that are made are the correct ones. That's not something whining is conducive too. IMHO of course.

I think you´ll rarely see me whining and if i do it´s about the attitude and carelessness displayed towards normal players rather than the class. I´m still doing relatively well on my sorc - but i´ve been playing the class for over 4 years now and would put myself in the upper 25% of open world sorc players.

What i´m saying is that i can look past my personal experience and look at how the average sorc i meet in cyro performs and atleast try to imagine how they must feel.
I can understand why people whine - and i think the reps should too.

As far as guidance for offensive changes goes - i´ve tried to briefly explain why having a non damaging gcd for cc on a class with no sustained pressure is bad/doesn´t work.
The other problems actually don´t lie directly with sorc offense (imo) but rather with defense vs projectiles in general (which is too easy/rewarding), delayed burst being a one trick pony and the class needing too many defensive abilities/slots now due to shield changes/healingward change and obliviondmg.

Joy_Division wrote: »

No, I'm not saying don't bother with feedback. I am saying if they do give feedback, it should be the sort that Malcolm provided.

But that´s an issue imo. If you deem feedback only acceptable from a source that has the time to create a 50 minute video on the class that´s problematic.
It´s also problematic as maybe someone else runs into different issues malcolm might be running into because they play different builds or don´t exclusively solo pvp - while not having the same time or dedication to create something you label as worthy feedback.

IMO the reps should be knowledgeable enough about the game and atleast one or two classes to get something even from whiney feedback and debateably nonconstructive like "runecage is useless crap now." and be able to extrapolate where the issues with the ability lie when looking at the class and it´s toolkit.
That´s why you were chosen no? Because you supposedly understand the game well.

You shouldn´t require feedback that explains the game to you.
But that´s just my opinion i guess.

No, you don't whine. You are on a short list of people in that category.

I too can understand why sorcerers would whine. Hell, the class I mained was a train-wreck of obsolete mechanics being forced to stand in a dumb "house" while the game moved toward mobility (even in PvE) and got hit with dumb nerfs like losing the shards stun before it finally got an update the past two patches. But I've heard what the devs had said and it's not something in which whining is going to be productive. It's not that I deem only Malcom's feedback "acceptable," it's that anyone who watched that video will get to the heart of how the class functions (and does not) after a legitimate attempt to make the best of the changes ZOS made. That will help tell ZOS where they need to go. Not "class sucks, only can kill potatoes."

People don't have to make 50 minute videos. And yes, we are generally capable of interpreting what people mean by "runecage is useless crap now." Stiles and Fear are two of the best sorcerer PVE players on the planet. 5 of us have thousands of hours of /played on sorcerers in all types of PvP environments. But ZOS does not just get feedback from us. They still look at the forums, still look at /feedback, still look how their customers are playing the game, still have their own internal testing, still get information elsewhere from the 12 of us. And there are certain issues where ZOS's conclusions, which they believe are accurate and informed, differ from the reps's conclusions, which we feel are accurate and informed. What's going to help convince ZOS that our interpretation of the data is more suitable than theirs? Not whining, I can say that much.

I'm tired of being the bad guy for telling sorcerers what they don't want to hear. If sorcerers want to come on these forums and rant, thinking that it will spur ZOS to make productive and relevant changes, then all the more power to them. The last word from ZOS was that they were going to be making fundamental changes to sorcerer's offensively. If people want to express their anger in the belief that is the best method of guidance for these changes, then best of luck.

Used to play Warhammer Online with a fella called Stiles.. Wonder if its the same one...?

Lord-Otto · November 2018

On that note, Rune Cage:
Malcolm mentioned you can combo it with Meteor to CC before Met hits. It's not true. I tested it, thoroughly, and Derra was so kind to check and confirm.

What happens is that when you cast Meteor followed by Cage, the Cage crystals will still linger in the air while the Met is falling. They will fall down very briefly after the Meteor impact. Best way to confirm is testing it on a tough NPC who survives the Meteor. On a Cyro guard (no lag, server was empty, I was alone), the stun animation was irrefutable proof. When he got stunned, he lay on the back. That's the Meteor's knockback CC. If Rune Cage had stunned him, he would have kneeled.

The delay ZOS implemented for "counterplay reasons" is slightly too long. Which means that Rune Cage is useless crap now. Even I dropped it, and I used to love it since CwC.
More over, sorcs now have zero, ZERO tools to make the Meteor unblockable. Which makes this highly telegraphed, expensive single-target ult very bad.

The solution is to slightly speed up the stun of Rune Cage. I think it's 1.6 seconds now, 1.4 should be enough. Just so it hits before Meteor.
And also give it damage, like a good DoT, or other utility to make it worth using with Force Pulse so we're not forced into Master Reach only.

pieratsos · November 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm tired of being the bad guy for telling sorcerers what they don't want to hear. If sorcerers want to come on these forums and rant, thinking that it will spur ZOS to make productive and relevant changes, then all the more power to them.

Except that the only productive and relevant change they made was when everyone raised hell in the forums and finally made them revert a stupid change they made and instead turn it into something that is at least better.

Every other normal feedback people gave was ignored and they instead changed pets and rune cage for the 348957643287th time. And they are still not good. Thats the sad thing about them. They still dont even know what is the issue with those abilities that they are changing over and over again for years.

Joy_Division · November 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

On that note, Rune Cage:
Malcolm mentioned you can combo it with Meteor to CC before Met hits. It's not true. I tested it, thoroughly, and Derra was so kind to check and confirm.

What happens is that when you cast Meteor followed by Cage, the Cage crystals will still linger in the air while the Met is falling. They will fall down very briefly after the Meteor impact. Best way to confirm is testing it on a tough NPC who survives the Meteor. On a Cyro guard (no lag, server was empty, I was alone), the stun animation was irrefutable proof. When he got stunned, he lay on the back. That's the Meteor's knockback CC. If Rune Cage had stunned him, he would have kneeled.

The delay ZOS implemented for "counterplay reasons" is slightly too long. Which means that Rune Cage is useless crap now. Even I dropped it, and I used to love it since CwC.
More over, sorcs now have zero, ZERO tools to make the Meteor unblockable. Which makes this highly telegraphed, expensive single-target ult very bad.

The solution is to slightly speed up the stun of Rune Cage. I think it's 1.6 seconds now, 1.4 should be enough. Just so it hits before Meteor.
And also give it damage, like a good DoT, or other utility to make it worth using with Force Pulse so we're not forced into Master Reach only.

Noted and agreed that ZOS has spent too much time with Rune Cage for it not to be something that all sorcs feel is good.

Lord-Otto · November 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

show previous quotes

Lord-Otto wrote: »

On that note, Rune Cage:
Malcolm mentioned you can combo it with Meteor to CC before Met hits. It's not true. I tested it, thoroughly, and Derra was so kind to check and confirm.

What happens is that when you cast Meteor followed by Cage, the Cage crystals will still linger in the air while the Met is falling. They will fall down very briefly after the Meteor impact. Best way to confirm is testing it on a tough NPC who survives the Meteor. On a Cyro guard (no lag, server was empty, I was alone), the stun animation was irrefutable proof. When he got stunned, he lay on the back. That's the Meteor's knockback CC. If Rune Cage had stunned him, he would have kneeled.

The delay ZOS implemented for "counterplay reasons" is slightly too long. Which means that Rune Cage is useless crap now. Even I dropped it, and I used to love it since CwC.
More over, sorcs now have zero, ZERO tools to make the Meteor unblockable. Which makes this highly telegraphed, expensive single-target ult very bad.

The solution is to slightly speed up the stun of Rune Cage. I think it's 1.6 seconds now, 1.4 should be enough. Just so it hits before Meteor.
And also give it damage, like a good DoT, or other utility to make it worth using with Force Pulse so we're not forced into Master Reach only.

Noted and agreed that ZOS has spent too much time with Rune Cage for it not to be something that all sorcs feel is good.

Thank you.

Vapirko · January 2019

Great stuff, just dusted off my mag sorc after quite some time so this is perfect.

Ruckly · January 2019

I don't main or alt sorc but I've played magicka on two other classes. They ought to do something with bound armor. High magicka cost to lose magicka blocking with higher mitigation sure but you still take magicka damage from blocking with frost staff. It should make all your block use magicka instead of stamina for the duration and if you block a melee attack or a gap closer your next bash stuns & immobilizes the target with extra damage or something. It is sort of a delayed off the GCD melee stun & immobilize. Probably would need more work to make it work with Immovable armor buff but that is offense added to the sorcerer defending against melee that counters bolt escape.

Or wait can't a sorc prime a proximity detonation then destro ult then bound armor and double teleport into a group and hold block keeping bound armor up and spamming sheilds with an immovable/regen pot to boot. Or maybe they can't I've never tried it.

MalcolM24 · January 2019

Ruckly wrote: »

I don't main or alt sorc but I've played magicka on two other classes. They ought to do something with bound armor. High magicka cost to lose magicka blocking with higher mitigation sure but you still take magicka damage from blocking with frost staff. It should make all your block use magicka instead of stamina for the duration and if you block a melee attack or a gap closer your next bash stuns & immobilizes the target with extra damage or something. It is sort of a delayed off the GCD melee stun & immobilize. Probably would need more work to make it work with Immovable armor buff but that is offense added to the sorcerer defending against melee that counters bolt escape.

Or wait can't a sorc prime a proximity detonation then destro ult then bound armor and double teleport into a group and hold block keeping bound armor up and spamming sheilds with an immovable/regen pot to boot. Or maybe they can't I've never tried it.

well I don't know how it goes for pve tank sorcs, but it's only purpose in pvp is the max magicka bonus, which is way too small to make it better than fury, elemental drain, magelight or another skill that actually does something. Shields don't even get the damage reduction from blocking. So ye, this skill could defenitely use a change imo.

@Vapirko Glad it was a help ^^ Gonna consider later whether an additional video for the next patch will be needed.

Vapirko · January 2019

What do you recommend for best staff traits? I’ve been running shackle and bright throat and then following your suggestion for Chudan and CP setup which changed everything for the better. I don’t have any arena staffs (other than vMA) so I’m using a nirnhoned fire staff. But I’m curious about your thoughts on idea traits and also shock staff mostly for solo open world CP.

MalcolM24 · January 2019

@Vapirko
I use defending for restoration staff, and sharpened for destruction staff, with the escapist's poison. Sharpened is slightly more dmg than nirn. I really like the escapist's poison, but infused shock glyphs is another very good option for the destro staff. You have more dmg with glyphs, but less control (not only cause you can't root the enemy anymore, but also because the cc immunity uptime from escapist's poison is very good).

Lightning staff is about as good as the fire staff, cause lightning reach is more subtle (with that I mean it hits more, it's harder to avoid). It's sort of the same logic as the escapist's poison, the problem with sorc dmg isn't that it's low, it's that it's too easy to avoid. Extra control (lightning reach, escapists) is more valuable because of that imo.
Next to that you also get more concussion procs and more ult dmg form the lightning staff ofc.

If you don't have any arena staves it's still better to use a willpower staff instead of a random one.

Vapirko · January 2019

MalcolM24 wrote: »

@Vapirko
I use defending for restoration staff, and sharpened for destruction staff, with the escapist's poison. Sharpened is slightly more dmg than nirn. I really like the escapist's poison, but infused shock glyphs is another very good option for the destro staff. You have more dmg with glyphs, but less control (not only cause you can't root the enemy anymore, but also because the cc immunity uptime from escapist's poison is very good).

Lightning staff is about as good as the fire staff, cause lightning reach is more subtle (with that I mean it hits more, it's harder to avoid). It's sort of the same logic as the escapist's poison, the problem with sorc dmg isn't that it's low, it's that it's too easy to avoid. Extra control (lightning reach, escapists) is more valuable because of that imo.
Next to that you also get more concussion procs and more ult dmg form the lightning staff ofc.

If you don't have any arena staves it's still better to use a willpower staff instead of a random one.

Thanks! I played around with the lightning staff today it’s defintitely more reliable and slightly more helpful in out numbered fights. I’m just using full 5pc shackle and 5pc bright throat now, not a random staff. Again, great video!

OrdoHermetica · January 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

show previous quotes

MalcolM24 wrote: »

@Vapirko
I use defending for restoration staff, and sharpened for destruction staff, with the escapist's poison. Sharpened is slightly more dmg than nirn. I really like the escapist's poison, but infused shock glyphs is another very good option for the destro staff. You have more dmg with glyphs, but less control (not only cause you can't root the enemy anymore, but also because the cc immunity uptime from escapist's poison is very good).

Lightning staff is about as good as the fire staff, cause lightning reach is more subtle (with that I mean it hits more, it's harder to avoid). It's sort of the same logic as the escapist's poison, the problem with sorc dmg isn't that it's low, it's that it's too easy to avoid. Extra control (lightning reach, escapists) is more valuable because of that imo.
Next to that you also get more concussion procs and more ult dmg form the lightning staff ofc.

If you don't have any arena staves it's still better to use a willpower staff instead of a random one.

Thanks! I played around with the lightning staff today it’s defintitely more reliable and slightly more helpful in out numbered fights. I’m just using full 5pc shackle and 5pc bright throat now, not a random staff. Again, great video!

In out-numbered fights I actually recommend giving Shock Clench a try. Unlike the other two variants, Shock Clench is actually quite useful, especially on a sorc because of Implosion.