Inventory as a hostage

Petoften · January 2019

This is a topic I can see both sides.

In principle, I support subscriptions for MMO's. Continued development and expense paid for fairly as the best and fairest model, over crippling features to re-sell the player with a 'free to pay' mode as I call it. But the market has spoken and many players pick the 'free to pay' over the subscription even if they complain about the harm to the game that design causes.

So I have some sympathy for games trying to find a way to make subscriptions work in this market and how hard that is.

Having said all that, I wanted to play and enjoy ESO casually, not have a subscription game. It's better than I expected and I've played quite a bit.

On the subscription, ESO has seemed to find a pretty persuasive angle of holding inventory hostage as pressure to subscribe - with lots of icing on the cake if you do. The 'crown' model seems especially well designed at making it easier to swallow.

But most players I've seen answer the question why to subscribe answer the crafting bag - i.e., a functional inventory system. So on the one hand, I'm glad to see something to get subscriptions, on the other there's something I just don't care for about having a practically unplayable game because of an intentionally designed inventory problem, unless you limit loot a lot.

The game - and I this is mostly insidious, with a slight aspect of a compliment to the word - has really added the pressure on this inventory. Things to gather everywhere, with hundreds of items, in every land, in every dungeon, in crafting rewards, all of which is a nightmare without a crafting bag and automatically handled with one.

I tried playing without a subscription and it was pretty crazy - it felt like half my time was on inventory. When I'd do daily writs, for each one, I could be selling items to the merchant temporarily to make room, running to the bank to store the rewards, etc.

Before I began playing ESO, I asked one question in a forum, 'can the game be played ok on inventory without the subscription', and was told yes. I think I was wrongly answered, unless as I said, you don't want to craft or collect large amounts of items you are handed.

Where I'm heading with this is to say, it seems like they're playing a dangerous game, by making the game almost unplayable without a subscription if you want to get much of that loot, driving players to be more likely to just quit playing - which might make some financial short-term sense in a buy-to-play, but doesn't help the product long-term.

But on the other hand, where would it be with a low subscription rate. So there are no easy answers. I'm both disliking the design and seeing ways it is well done and sympathetic to the need.

It would be easier if the marketplace had subscriptions as a standard, and ESO just had to compete with other subscription MMO's. It's a great game and would do well. But its competition is a lot of free to pay high-grind games that unfortunately get a lot of players.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2019

i have not had eso plus for 3+ years, i have had very little in the way of inventory troubles. i have 10 toons with 200 inventory and max bank, 240. every toon has around 130-150 in their inventory and the bank has ~230. plenty of room. just do not keep junk and or every bit of scrap you pick up.

idk · January 2019

First, ESO has a great option for players to enjoy the game and gives them complete control over how much they spend and when without punishing their actual playing of the game. One can look at similar hybrids like SWTOR that place heavy punishment on those not subscribed such as not able to equip epic gear, very limited PvP, no raids and greatly reduced QoL. Not to mention they cannot buy anything in game that costs big money as they are capped their as well.

So if Inventory is the only pinch point in ESO, and really it is, then that is not to bad.

Of course these games have a vested interest in encouraging subscriptions as it is the most reliable and consistent revenue source for playing the game and generates more Per year per player than just selling them each DLC. So it is a win/win for Zos and any company that chooses this hybrid model.

As for your last comment, it would be easier if Zos required subscriptions. However, they can blame themselves first and foremost for delivering a game that seemed more in early Beta than the gold version we expected. The early performance of the game drove hordes away, not to mention those that avoided the mess altogether. Poor management of the game since has not helped.

Protossyder · January 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

i have not had eso plus for 3+ years, i have had very little in the way of inventory troubles. i have 10 toons with 200 inventory and max bank, 240. every toon has around 130-150 in their inventory and the bank has ~230. plenty of room. just do not keep junk and or every bit of scrap you pick up.

My Alkahest alone would take the whole bank and half a toon xD. But I would probably only keep 2-3 stacks if I didn't have ESO+

Turelus · January 2019

Agreed with idk.

The game can be played without a subscription, it's just a little more punishing and you have to focus more on collecting things needed rather than hoarding everything.

If you're only making food which uses 3 ingredients as your end game food, then you should really only be looting those three types. If you're not using iron any more, you don't need 1,000 iron ingots etc.

ESO thankfully lets you play and enjoy the game with very few barriers locked behind a pay wall, as idk said games like SWTOR are insanely punishing to those who don't sub in comparison.

Tasear · January 2019

It's simply selling convience and comestics which is by far one of most healthy models in game.

Just sell what you don't use and buy what you need.

Turelus · January 2019

Protossyder wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

i have not had eso plus for 3+ years, i have had very little in the way of inventory troubles. i have 10 toons with 200 inventory and max bank, 240. every toon has around 130-150 in their inventory and the bank has ~230. plenty of room. just do not keep junk and or every bit of scrap you pick up.

My Alkahest alone would take the whole bank and half a toon xD. But I would probably only keep 2-3 stacks if I didn't have ESO+

Exactly, if you're not using the materials why not turn them into gold as that's easier to store.

randomkeyhits · January 2019

On the fence with this one.

I'm of the mindset where if I'm playing then I really need to have the sub running. Having to obsess over inventory management isn't fun for me. I consider the crafting bag to be essential.

The flip side of that coin is that if I left the game then its likely I wouldn't return as testing the waters without a sub wouldn't appeal. I'd have to deal with managing all collected resources, partial DLC access, a seriously overflowing bank, it would definitely be messy.

So now the crafting bag becomes a barrier against returning. I'd want to try before I re-sub but I know the experience wouldn't be all it could be until I do re-sub. A bit catch-22.

I've had this with other games, while subbed everything is fine, without it? just no, I've yet to return to a game where I've dropped my sub.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2019

Turelus wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

i have not had eso plus for 3+ years, i have had very little in the way of inventory troubles. i have 10 toons with 200 inventory and max bank, 240. every toon has around 130-150 in their inventory and the bank has ~230. plenty of room. just do not keep junk and or every bit of scrap you pick up.

My Alkahest alone would take the whole bank and half a toon xD. But I would probably only keep 2-3 stacks if I didn't have ESO+

Exactly, if you're not using the materials why not turn them into gold as that's easier to store.

i only have one stack in my bank of Alkahest, for writs, i sell the rest at a vendor, usually around 100g per dungeon run. this is what i mean, you really don't need more then that one stack, poisons are useless in pve and in pvp, a stack of 200 makes 3200 poisons (enough poisons to have one go off every 10 seconds for almost 9 hours). meaning you can wait to have them till you use all 3200 of the rest and just buy the Alkahest when you need it. be smart with your inventory and you have plenty of room. don't pick up junk or horde.

and if you are on the pc, this addon saves a ton of time- https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info97-Dustman.html

FlyingSwan · January 2019

I used to sub but ESO does not have the level of quality that I expect in return for a sub, so I did not renew last time around and have not regretted this. That said, I have so many mats in the crafting bag that I'll never need to add more so I simply do not pick up what I don't need.

If all the game gives me in return for my sub is a bag, then that really is a sorry statement from ZOS. Contrast that with FFXIV, where I gladly pay a sub because I get a well optimised game in return, run by a responsive team who seem to appreciate me as a customer.

As IDK says, ZOS shot themselves in the foot by promising a class leading service in return for the sub, but then delivered a game that runs like a dog, has a dearth of challening content, still has release day bugs, and has robots that arbitrarily close tickets when you report an issue. Not sure what class that is leading, but it's not one I want to pay to be a member of!

Odnoc · January 2019

You must be fairly new. The game is playable without a crafting bag, I did it for years even with a subscription. Since the bag was added, there’s been maybe 6 or 7 crafting items added? So it’s not like there was a major change after the bag was added.

doggie · January 2019

I've never had the crafting bag, you don't really need it. Sure you'll end up micromanaging your inv. a little. But delete or sell stuff you don't need.

I think it's an outdated business practice. They're not just making life hard for people who "play for free", they also make life hard for people who spend hundreds of $ on the game, but don't sub.

If you look at Fortnite BR, a very succesfull game, they don't make life hard for the people who play for free, they're an asset to the game, they enhance the game experience for the people who pay. Making games fill faster etc.

ArchMikem · January 2019

The workaround is creating mule characters. Used only as mobile banks to expand your storage space. Its tedious, but the only way of having extra space without the craft bag. That and not buying the new storage chests for your house.

myskyrim26 · January 2019

I love ESO+ benefits, especially now that we have more of them. Yet I can't afford it every month. Here's how I live without my Craft Bag and additional bank space:
1. I know excactly what I need for crafting and other needs, I keep only items I need. Toons and home storage helps perfectly.
2. I sell everything that I don't need now. I harvest nodes and sell alchemy reagents and raw materials. I keep the gold, so once I need something, I can buy it.
3. I know I'm a hoarder! So I inspect my treasures and sell everything that just takes space without any use.

Radiance · January 2019

I have ESO+ and still have constant Inventory troubles. I have to visit a merchant/ Deconstruct every 30 minutes to an Hour at least during active gameplay. I will NEVER Buy those Merchant/Bank Assistants for 5k each...
But I am also a Hoarder so...

Welcome to Inventory Online!!!

Arunei · January 2019

@Odnoc
Uh...there have been a LOT more than 7 crafting items added since the bags were introduced. Every new Style itself brings the style mat, most of which tend to come in full stones and in the pieces. Then there were the Trait stones introduced with Summerset for JC.

---

People aren't taking into account the crafters in this game, or people who do writs across a variety of different-leveled characters who require different level mats. Or crafters who make stuff for people of every level and thus require mats of every level to work with. Saying to keep only what you use is meaningless when you use pretty much everything.

With every new DLC we get new items, a slew of them. New sets, new motifs, new chapters, etc. The number of items that can clog our inventories keeps growing and growing but we've had no additions to the number expansions you can buy for your bag/bank. Bit by bit it adds up and it makes inventory management an absolute nightmare without ESO+. Every time I have to let my sub slide for whatever reason, I end up having to struggle with alt-hopping to juggle all the stuff I get, which isn't just crafting stuff mind you.

Leveling alts or farming CP or running dungeons with friends equals a lot of trash loot drops that can be deconned for more useful mats, but if your bank is full and you have only one crafting character, you can't really shuffle that stuff onto other characters to decon it. So instead you have to use a convoluted system of bouncing mail off friends or guildmates so you can grab the things into your inventory to decon them a few at a time...right up until your inventory is then full of both mats and items you can't decon. And since our inboxes can only hold 100 mails at a time, that also limits how many items you can 'store' via your inbox.

ESO+ shouldn't be about making the game itself playable by getting rid of the inventory management minigame. It should be about the free Crowns, the access to all the DLC, the double bank space and furnishing slots (the former of which definitely helps with inventory stuff but not to the extent of crafting bags), and the other perks that come with it. I would still definitely subscribe to ESO+ even without crafting bags, since it lets me run DLC dungeons with my friends without having to actually buy those DLC, but I'll admit the main reason I have it now is for crafting bags. Something as basic as managing your inventory shouldn't be locked behind a sub, especially when they could offer a more limited 'free' version that only has maybe 100 slots, then the 'unlimited' version to ESO+ people. That way everyone has more control over their inventories and stuff, but the hardcore crafters/collecters/etc would still have incentive to pay for the sub (and we wouldn't foam at the mouth in frustration like rabid animals whenever we lose our sub for whatever reason).

Tan9oSuccka · January 2019

Plus is a good value. I want to play the game, not the mini game of inventory management every six seconds.

Skwor · January 2019

Plus is worth it and the crafting bag is a clever way of making a subscription have value and not turn into a P2W issue.
Either make some mules or find a way to make 10 more bucks a month, really is not that diffulcult.

doggie · January 2019

What I think is the sadest about the crafting bag is that it prevents them from making the game better. There's a lot of items in the game that could have been consolidated and removed, making it easier to craft for alts for example. Instead they're encouraged to just let all the pointless items exist in the game, filling inventories. It also prevents them from adding extra bag space. Instead they're encouraged to make more and more stuff that don't stack through daily rewards for example.

Alinhbo_Tyaka · January 2019

Having started the game without ESO+ I think the hardest part of not having the crafting bag was leveling crafting. When there was an ESO+ free weekend I used it to fill the crafting bag with as much stuff as I could. My feeling is unless you are a pack rat or heavily involved in crafting the need for huge inventories disappear after you are done leveling. Even if you are a heavy crafter I could see subscribing for a short period of time to build up crafting materials and then unsubscribing until they run low. While I now subscribe to ESO+ it was as much for DLC access as the additional inventory and I've thought about dropping it now that I have leveled crafting which I only do to support myself so don't require a wide variety of everything.

DMuehlhausen · January 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

i have not had eso plus for 3+ years, i have had very little in the way of inventory troubles. i have 10 toons with 200 inventory and max bank, 240. every toon has around 130-150 in their inventory and the bank has ~230. plenty of room. just do not keep junk and or every bit of scrap you pick up.

Sure, but most people don't do this. I haven't even had the time play in about 3 months, so no way I can have more than 1 toon. The average person only has 1 or 2 toons they play, maybe 1 of each class at most. If you aren't ESO+ with that and are somebody who crafts you might spend most of your play sessions doing nothing but inventory management.

Solidus2 · January 2019

I genuinely love playing ESO with my wife on Xbox, but damn the inventory is just.......

From day 1, we both got ESO Plus Subscriptions and absolutely love it. After 1 month of play for both of us, I can say this: I could not play this game without the subscription AND I DON'T CARE! We hoard crafting materials, and level them all up simultaneously every time we manage inventory. And manage inventory, we do.

Holy crap, do I manage inventory. I have 100 slots of space, and 180 in the bank. The wife and I say we spend half of our play time managing inventory. We vendor trash, I fence stolen items, we decon plain gear, bank gear with traits we need. It is pretty awful. Next to bad FPS, I'd say the organization system for inventory needs to be seriously reworked. People without the craft bag? How? Why? That's awful. Leveling a bunch of alts as inventory mules is just unacceptable to me and everyone I know.

That said, I have paid $15 a month for 15 years for WoW. Supporting a developer and the game I like playing is not optional. As an IT guy myself, I know it takes payroll and investment to maintain the kind of hardware needed for something this scale. ESO does a brilliant job of making this game 1) Single charge/Free to Play, and 2) Subscription Enhanced, AND 3) Cash Store enhanced. It's honestly the best blend of these three things I've ever seen.

I think they've taken the perfect part of the game "hostage," though. I'd rather inventory tediousness be behind the subscription instead of gear, content, end-game, etc. I also find the $15 to be perfect for what you get. All main DLC's included, 1650 crowns a month for fluff I want. I pay for this game exactly the same way I paid for WoW, and that's not a problem.

Anybody not paying either a subscription or for crowns: you don't support the continuous development and maintenance of this system (and regardless of flaws or opinions, the hardware alone needs these things 24/7). They need to wall off something that people need in order to bring in subscriptions.

Narvuntien · January 2019

I wouldn't be playing the game if it was still sub only, I just don't like the sub system there is plenty of games I can play without continuously paying money and I'd just play them instead. I don't have a consistent income I can't just burn money on a subscription.

I bought the chapters and the 4 pack DLCs.. I bought the game then I want to play it I don't want to have to keep paying for it.

As far as inventory goes, yeah its a squeeze, I just have to stop every couple of months and have a big clean out what I call "inventory management online". Just like most people, I haven't maxed out a character or bank space (since it gets ridiculously expensive eventually) and I also I haven't resorted to mule characters yet. I have all the storage containers though.

I am finding the dust refining into crafting mats particularly egregious in recent chapters, just seems obviously meant to fill up inventories... I deal with it.

Some of my strategies are of course just selling as much of my mats as I can but if my trade guilds lose their spot I quickly fill up particularly since I am limited on guilds as well. And well being a jerk and leaving chests and nodes unlooted because I don't have the inventory to carry around trash.

Michaelkeir · January 2019

OP If you aren't into crafting and just sell everything or only keep what you really need you'll be fine.

But if you are a crafter or master crafter of all or any crafts....you're going to need that bag space. Trust me. Plus if you're like me and carry around extra sets of gear on each character to switch builds or from pvp to pve gear on the fly....you're going to run out of space fast.

Davor · January 2019

Petoften wrote: »

I'm both disliking the design and seeing ways it is well done and sympathetic to the need.

No where am I saying you are wrong, I agree with everything you have had to say. I felt like this as well. I think like you do as well. As for disliking the design, I do have to say that this is the best system I have found so far. I have tried Guild Wars 2. While it's free now, I played for a few hours and gave up once I saw how little stash we have. Oh yeah I can buy more, but I already done this with ESO. Then I see how little you gain in storage space. I could be wrong, but since I didn't stay long enough I will never know. I don't want to buy with real money, and I saw no way of increasing storage space in game.

At least ESO gives us 3 ways to increase our storage space without any real money. Maybe 4, but I haven't found a way to make storage containers, so not sure if that is possible or they have to be bought. And the free way of acquiring them actually give us a really good storage capacity.

Since we are horders it's easy to complain about limited storage space. Thing is, ESO does the best I have seen as I said (not sure if other games do better) in increasing our loot without paying. Also as you said the "icing on the cake" is just to sweet not to try and not be a hoarder.

What ever you do, don't play Fallout 76, just for not having enough storage. :P

karekiz · January 2019

Do what I did.

Get 10 friends + Make a guild bank + everyone agree to share guild bank and store "unwanted" mats in there

Unwanted=
"Rare or not daily style stones"
Mats under 150-160 or Max level
All food mats <This is actually the biggest clog in most banks>
Fishing mats
Trait stones

That way your bank holds:
Max level mats
Enchanting
Certain specific food
Green/blue/purple mats

You can go and boost your bank space even further if you move Green/blue/purple upgrade mats onto a crafter bot.

Store them up throughout the year. If your lucky your friends will sub and when the free ESO+ comes out either take all mats our for youself or split them up amongst your guild and rinse and repeat.

Its the poor mans craft bag. If you have at least 2 free guild slots you open 1000 extra slots.

Starlock · January 2019

I don't recall my experience in ESO without a crafting bag being a "nightmare" by any stretch, and I only had one character (who did not have max inventory space, nor did I have max bank space - I could not afford it) during that time period. Every game has limits. You learn to work within them... or you don't.

RodneyRegis · January 2019

I subscribed very soon after playing. I remember a week or so of running out of inventory constantly due to every different ingredient or reagent taking up a slot. I don't see how it's possible to play this game seriously unless you either sell all crafting items to a vendor immediately or destroy them, or have about 5 mules which would make. Any kind of crafting or writ completion impossible - can somebody who plays a lot without a sub explain how they manage it?!

Ignore me, I see it's been answered above. I guess I should flog all the intermediate crap in my craft bag!

Davor · January 2019

RodneyRegis wrote: »

can somebody who plays a lot without a sub explain how they manage it?!

Easy answer. I don't. I stopped playing because I can't control my own temptations. What I am going to say is nothing against you, you are not wrong in not getting a sub, but it's only for me, and worked for me. If this helps you great, if not, then my opinion is wrong for you.

We need to look at it another way. It's not a "Zenimax" problem but an "our" problem. It's You and me and others who are horders as well that have the problem. Easy answer is just don't pick up everything. If you don't role play it's harder but if you do role play, then only gather what your character does and needs. Are you a jack of all trades master of none? Or is your character makes potions? If so, they don't need all the weapon/armor loot and stones etc.

Also if you want a "cheap" real money storage space, buy another copy of ESO. It's what $20 or so? That is another 8 mules you can have for storage space and mail to your other accounts.

What finally made me stop complaining about ESO+ and calling Zenimax evil, is, that I am trying to save 50 cents a day. I do more work trying to do things for "free" to save 50 cents a day. Who is the greedy one now? As much as I complain about Zenimax they have done the best in all games I have seen so far. (I said what I have seen if there is better I don't know about it yet.) They have given us options to increase storage without ever spending real money. Those options also increase our stash limits quite a bit as well.

So for 50 cents a day, I get that money back in crowns that I don't have to buy, I get all the DLC, and craft bag and double bank/house storage. I waste more in time and energy than I will ever recoop from saving 50 cents a day.

That is my view. Not saying you are wrong at all. Just trying to show you another way of looking at it. Now if you are like me and don't have money sometimes to sub, that is a different story. As hard as I might, I try not to collect everything I see. I stopped collecting butterflies, and stopped smelling the roses and not pick up loot just because. When I can't I just stop playing ESO because now ESO has stopped becoming fun.

Wildberryjack · January 2019

They're not going to give up the craft bag as a sub perk, it brings in too many subs as many sub just for it. I'm one of them. I don't mind the sub however because I easily spend twice this going out to eat ONE time, so to get an entire months entertainment for such a little $$$ is fine to me. I mean you get unlimited hours per month to play, at your leisure, anytime of the day or night. You get other perks too like the crowns, bonus xp, and access to all DLCs. For the price it's a massive bargain really.

VaranisArano · January 2019

ESO can be played without a subscription and have manageable inventory even with doing crafting writs with a few major caveats. Its possible - but maybe not suitable for all players.

1. You need to have the gold, skills, and time to max your bank, your character inventories, your mount carry capacity, and your housing storage. If you use that character for crafting or farming, 200 inventory slots is a necessity.

2. You need to take advantage of the ESO+ trials to stuff your Crafting Bag full of mats for use for Crafting Writs during the following months. (If you don't do Crafting Writs, this is less necessary.)

3. You need to not be a hoarder. I hoard selectively - crafting surveys, dungeons ets I don't want to grind for again, and 50 transmute stone geode. The rest gets sold. I run into issues when I start hoarding things like motifs for future sales. If you have to hoard, its worth investing in a mule character.

Dont get me wrong, its not as easy as if I were subscribed, but I can manage well enough that I haven't felt the need to since I already own the DLC I want.

On the other hand, that's speaking as an experienced, rich player who can manage all three of those things. I've got the gold, skill points, and time to max out all the things I need to manage my inventory satisfactorily on the characters I use. For newer or poorer players who don't want to mess with their inventory or make the investment I've made to not have to subscribe, the ESO+ inventory benefits are substantial.