What's Wrong With Decoupling Character Passives From Race?

Recremen · December 2018

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

@Recremen how can you say that magic is not the science of the elder scrolls universe? You are trying to apply a modern understanding of science to a world with a different theme and style altogether, a world that is fictional. I would argue that proper understanding of real genetics may actually have no bearing at all on what a fictional world's truths might be. This is actually a rather large assumption you are making. Furthermore, one can infer a lot about the world by playing previous games. It is strikingly obvious for instance that despite having bonuses to fire damage you find many if not most of the mages in Morrowind to be utilizing lightning and ice spells. A race of people with a bonus to flame damage oddly does not use flame damage spells that much against you. Why is this? I inferred years ago that this was because the Dunmer have an innate resistance to Flame. How effective are your fireballs going to be generally speaking when most of your enemies (fellow Dunmer) are essentially immune to the attack. It is not that many of these Dunmer do not know how to use fireballs, it is simply not expedient for them to do so most time. While I can not prove the claim and I might actually be imputing some kind of greater intelligence upon the game designers than actually existed I do think it makes a certain level of sense. Additionally, this flame retardant nature of the Dunmer has been an element of their features for a very long time in the series. You can call it genetics. You can call it a divine curse (or blessing). I really don't care what you call it. It is what it is. You are not the writer of the Elder Scrolls universe.

I feel as though you are complaining about these racial traits with some kind of modern real world lens that is entirely unsuitable. Perhaps you also feel that in the Lord of the Rings the Orcs are a downtrodden misunderstood race. I would argue that is preposterous. The Orcs are some kind of necromantic (assumably) result of evil magics upon elves. They are anathema and truly monstrous. They are a twisted form of evil in that universe. You may not like that fact but Orcs in that universe are NOT PEOPLE. They are monsters just like Dragons or Cyclopses in other mythologies. Trying to apply some real world characteristics in this case would be inappropriate. It would not be inappropriate however to make a world where Orcs are simply misunderstood or perhaps flawed creatures with good and bad qualities (like in Elder Scrolls). This is another fictional universe and needs to be judged by its own rules and confines. The part that makes many elements of the Elder Scrolls series is that they leave much to mystery. They don't TELL YOU the truths of the world but they leave easter eggs and false hints. You are forced to try to come at some kind of truth much like we as humans have to try to come to some kind of truth in making sense of our real world.

The Summerset expansion is a prime example of my point as well. The developers went out of their way to make it clear that magic is steeped in every level of life in the Altmer world, from Janitor and Sewage Maintenance to Warfare to Art to farming. Magic is steeped in all the Altmer do. The Breton way of life is not like this despite their creed/culture having quite a fair bit of magic and magical aptitude among the people. The Bretons live a much more mundane way of life though in many ways of a beautiful one filled with pastries and warm cheesy bread. One could likewise point out that the Redguard world is not without magic. In fact there are lorebooks in the series dedicated to understanding of magic from the Redguard perspective. The philosophical and MAGICAL elements of these people's origins are very different though. You seem to downplay spiritual elements of the series without recognizing this is a magical world not a scientific one. This is a mythical world where people 'mantle' the gods. There are Shezzarines. There are Hoondings. There is nothing comparable like this in real life unless you might want to compare to Einstein, Alexander The Great, etc. In other words big names that we remember. The series has a very Jungian Greco-Roman element to it where thought shapes form and form shapes thought. We even get a bit of insight into this when we play the Oblivion game and the Hero of Kvatch starts to become something else (or was he that something all along?). This is why I have a problem with you wanting to remove racial qualities or natures in the series. Argonians breathe water and are semi-immune to poison and disease. Khajiit are innately stealthy and clever. Altmer, Dunmer and Bretons have an innate connection to magic. This is not the real world and by doing what you suggest we may as well just go play Call of Duty: the MMO.

@dodgehopper_ESO

When examining the lore, I'm not interested in the endless number of unsupported possibilities that might be true, I'm interested in drawing conclusions from what is actually mentioned. I'm not assuming that "magic is not the science of the elder scrolls universe", I am ruling it out a scientific explanation (which is something predictable and independently verifiable) to help support the idea that these racials don't make sense. It's only one part of the argument, not the whole of it. Now when it comes to the magic side of things, as I already said those kinds of claims need the strictest proof. There are no codified laws of magic, there's nothing we can do to predict what's going to make sense there, so there needs to be an explicit mention of a magical effect for there to be compelling evidence that such an effect does, indeed, exist. Otherwise you could speculate endlessly with no consequence or accountability.

As for your idea regarding Dunmer and Morrowind's alleged preference for shock and ice spells, you are mistaken. First, nobody has a bonus to fire damage in that game. Second, among the standard named spells for elemental damage (bite, storm, ball, bloom, fist, bolt) we don't see big differences in the count of instances. In the construction set, fire has a total of 78 confirm instances, Frost has a total of 74, and shock has a total of 67. Maybe you're remembering wrong, maybe you just happened to fight mostly enemies with one spell type instead of the other, or maybe some AI quirk caused the NPC to favor one particular spell over another, but no matter what way you swing it there should be just as much fire damage going out as the other elements. More to the point you were very likely correct in your assessment that you were reading too much into it.

For Lord of the Rings I don't know anything about their lore and can't say one way or another. I do know a fair bit about TES orcs, and they're just as vibrant and diverse a people as any other. I really don't know what point you're trying to get across in the second paragraph as it relates to the argument about racials, unless you're trying to imply that we'll likely never know the full truth. I'm inclined to agree with that at least superficially, but we should at least try to form some well-founded opinions on the matter.

As for your claims about the Summerset Isles, I have to disagree. I don't recall any magic janitors or sewer maintenance. I DO recall seeing a lot of menial labor like stonemasonry. Ditto for magic art. I recall a quest for getting paint pigments for some very pretty but very mundane artwork and I recall the House of Reveries quest showing almost exclusively mundane performance art. The one exception was with Alchemy. For warfare, I do recall some magical defenses via the keeps (not that we really get to SEE them function but they are at least described) but I also recall a lot of mundane sword and board fighters, plus I think some ballista-related naval combat. It's clear that magic exists on the isle and is an important part of the cultural heritage, but it is not, to my recollection, as ubiquitous as you are making it out to be.

As for Shezzarines, Hoon Dings, etc., those aren't something that the whole race does, they are specific cultural flavors of important heroic concepts. Redguards have the Hoon Ding as a cultural treasure, but they do not all as a race experience or perform such heroism. Or, if they do, they have done a damn good job of hiding it, because it's simply not apparent in their day to day lives. It's not discounting the importance of those kinds of cultural icons to say that they aren't related to racial abilities, it's just taking the facts as presenting and not drawing extraneous, unsupported conclusions.

And your last few sentences remain as unsupported as ever. Why do we have Argonians worrying about toxins or getting drunk on beer if they're immune to poisons? Why are there so many incredibly dumb Khajiit if they're so innately clever? How are Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons so innately connected to magic when the vast majority of their populace does not express such a proclivity? Especially Bretons, when you just said earlier in the paragraph that their way of life is specifically less magical? And why are race-wide magic powers and proclivities, which don't actually seem to show up in the whole of the race or even stay consistent game to game, so important to you that you think the world is stripped of all interesting fantasy elements just at the suggestion that racials might not be real? Do these cultures stop having magical/martial/etc. institutions at the sudden realization that they aren't actually gifted by the gods to be the best in their field? No, of course not. So why the big fuss? If most members of a race don't even participate in their alleged racial affinity, and if every other culture participates in analogous institutions, then clearly that supposed racial affinity is not that important of a defining characteristic. Tamriel wouldn't change even a little, only gameplay would.

Glurin · December 2018

offs, Nords have more fat deposits, alright?! There you go. Racial cold resistance explained without anything mystical.

Seriously, why is it so hard for you to grasp that in a world populated by races with very different biology, there just might be certain traits common to all members of each race?

This is just comedy gold: "Nobody is jumping at the idea of giving Nords a racial bonus to basketweaving, or Argonians a bonus to growing potatoes, but those actually make more sense for racial traits than some kind of bonus to health regen or whatever."

Why in Oblivion does it make more sense for Argonians to have a bonus to growing potatoes than to health regen? They're lizards for crying out loud! Did you never learn what happens if you pull the tail off a lizard? You think a human could do the same thing if their arm was torn off?

usmcjdking · December 2018

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Can we just STOP tying character passives to RACE?

No.

Elder Scrolls Lore

Each race having specific lore-based skill sets has existed since the beginning of Elder Scrolls, always including a basic description of their racial talents/expectations and sometimes including attribute bonuses, special skills, and resistances/weaknesses.

Arena
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Races
e.g. "Bretons are a tall, dark-haired people. Bretons are highly intelligent and willful people, and have an outgoing personality. It is said that Bretons are weaned on magic, for it seems to suffuse their very being. As a result Bretons take half damage on any Magic based attack, and no damage on a successful save. They are excellent in all the arcane arts."

Daggerfall
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Races
e.g. "Bretons hail from the province of High Rock. You are part of a tall, fair-skinned people, highly intelligent and willful. Magic seems to infuse the very being of the Breton people. As a race, they are more resistant to the effects of hostile magic than any other group, and thus are excellent in all arcane arts. Male and Female Breton character modifiers: +10 Intelligence, +10 Willpower, -10 Strength, -10 Endurance."

Battlespire
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Battlespire:Races
e.g. Highly intelligent and willful, the Bretons have a natural bond with the forces of magicka. Many great sorcerers have come out of their home province of High Rock, and even the humblest of Breton [sic] can boast a high resistance to the destructive powers of magicka. Breton character modifiers: +10 Destruction, +10 Mysticism, +10 Illusion, +5 Alteration, +5 Thaumaturgy, +5 Restoration."

Morrowind
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races
e.g. "Bretons are the human descendants of the Aldmeri-Nedic Manmer of the Merethic Era and are now the inhabitants of the province of High Rock.[...] Bretons make up the peasantry, soldiery, and magical elite of the feudal kingdoms that compete for power. Many are capable mages with innate resistance to magicka. They are known for a proficiency in abstract thinking and unique customs. Bretons appear, by and large, much like other pale-skinned humans. They are usually slight of build and not as muscular as Nords or Redguards. Skill Bonuses: +10 Conjuration, +10 Mysticism, +10 Restoration, +5 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Illusion. "

Oblivion
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
e.g. "In addition to their quick and perceptive grasp of spellcraft, even the humblest of Bretons can boast a resistance to magical energies. They are particularly skilled at summoning and healing magic. Skills: +10 Conjuration, Mysticism, and Restoration; +5 Alchemy, Alteration, and Illusion."

Skyrim
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races
e.g. "In addition to their quick and perceptive grasp of spellcraft, even the humblest of High Rock's Bretons can boast a resistance to magic. Bretons can call upon the Dragonskin power to absorb spells. Skills: +10 Conjuration; +5 Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Restoration, Speech."

Can there be exceptions (e.g. Shalidor, Urag gro-Shub)? Absolutely. But they're just that: exceptions. If Tamriel was populated by hundreds of Nord Mages, and Altmer Two-handed Warriors, it'd make zero sense from a lore point-of-view.

MMORPG Expectations

Races having specific attributes or alternatively being limited to specific classes is consistent with most popular MMOs. It isn't unique to ESO, and it certainly isn't something ZOS should eschew so that John Doe can throw away 24 years of TES's game history because he wants to be a unicorn in the world of Tamriel.

World of Warcraft
https://www.wowhead.com/races
e.g. "The night elves are an ancient and mysterious race. They lived in Kalimdor for thousands of years, undisturbed until the world tree was sacrificed to halt the advance of the Burning Legion prior to the events of World of Warcraft. Racials: Nature Resistance: Reduces Nature damage taken by 1%.; Wisp Spirit: Transform into a wisp upon death, increasing speed by 75%.; Quickness: Increases your chance to dodge melee and ranged attacks by 2%, and your movement speed by 2%.; Shadowmeld: Activate to slip into the shadows, reducing the chance for enemies to detect your presence. Lasts until cancelled or upon moving. Any threat is restored versus enemies still in combat upon cancellation of this effect.; Touch of Elune: Increases your Haste by 1% during the night.Increases your Critical Strike by 1% during the day."

Star Wars: The Old Republic
https://swtor.gamepedia.com/Playable_species
e.g. "Descendants of the original Sith species, the red-skinned Sith purebloods inherit a legacy long intertwined with the dark side. Playable Classes: Sith Inquisitor, Sith Warrior."

Everquest
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:races
e.g. " Barbarians are the remnants of an early civilization of Antonica. Barbarians are generally aligned with the Tribunal, although some do choose to follow other gods. The modern barbarian generally spends their early years hunting in Everfrost. Innate Racial Abilities: Slam, +10 Cold Resist. Available Classes: Beastlord, Berserker, Rogue, Shaman, Warrior. Armor Size: Medium, Large."

Star Trek Online
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Player_race
e.g. "Natives of the planet Ferenginar, Ferengi culture is built on the ideals of free enterprise and profit, and there are 285 Rules of Acquisition that govern Ferengi society. [...] Ferengi are shrewd, perceptive businessmen with a naturally resilient physiology. Innate Traits: Ground bonus - +10 Perception; .25 Flank Damage Reduction; +10% Exploit Damage; 20% energy credit/gold-pressed latinum store discount; +.33 Resistance to Toxic and Radiation."

Conclusion

ESO is already better than some MMORPGs in allowing any race to be any class, any role, and wear any armor, even if it isn't an ideal match. Hell, spend a few bucks and you can also be any alliance. The only constraints are racial passives which have been part of TES since its inception (and which I have demonstrated are addressed by every popular MMORPG). This should not be changed. Period.

The only Lore friendly change would be to implement something akin to Star Trek Online's, "Race-specific Personal traits" where, "Race-specific Personal traits are optionally selectable based on the player's race." In ESO terms it would look something like each race getting to select 5-6 Passive Abilities from a pool which is specifically tailored to their race.

For example:

Breton pool

MUST CHOOSE 1:
Increased experience gain in skill:
- Restoration Staff
- Destruction Staff
- Light Armor

DISTRIBUTE 30% BONUS BETWEEN:
- Max Magicka
- Magicka Recovery

MUST CHOOSE 3:
- Increases your Alliance Points gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your gold gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your crafting inspiration gained by 10% (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any eaten food by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Upon using a potion, gain 12% of your maximum, health, magicka and stamina. (Available to all races)
- Increases spell resistance by X (Breton only)
- Increases damage with Cold, Fire or Shock effects by 4% (Altmer, Breton, Dunmer)
- Reduces the magicka cost of spells by 3% (Altmer, Breton, Dunmer)
- Increases healing done and received by 5% (Altmer, Argonian, Breton)

Redguard pool

MUST CHOOSE 1:
Increased experience gain in skill:
- One Hand and Shield
- Two Handed
- Dual Wield

DISTRIBUTE 30% BONUS BETWEEN:
- Max Stamina
- Stamina Recovery

MUST CHOOSE 3:
- Increases your Alliance Points gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your gold gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your crafting inspiration gained by 10% (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any eaten food by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Upon using a potion, gain 12% of your maximum, health, magicka and stamina. (Available to all races)
- Restores X stamina when damaging an enemy with a melee attack, once every 3 seconds (Redguard only)
- Increases weapon critical chance by 2/5/8% (Bosmer, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc, Redguard)
- Increases damage done on melee weapon attacks by 4% (Bosmer, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc, Redguard)
- Reduces the stamina cost of skills by 3% (Bosmer, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc, Redguard)

Etc.

Effectively:
- Sneak Thief related skills: Khajiit + Bosmer
- Health or Resistance related skills: Argonian + Dunmer + Imperial + Nord + Orc + Redguard
- Stamina or Stamina Damage related skills: Bosmer + Imperial + Khajiit + Nord + Orc + Redguard
- Magicka or Magicka Damage related skills: Altmer + Breton + Dunmer
- Restoration related skills: Altmer + Argonian + Breton

All races would also have a pool of generic skills to choose from (e.g. the 1% AP gain), in addition to a single racial specific skill which confers a small bonus (e.g. Bow attacks returning Stamina & Bosmer, Melee attacks returning Stamina & Redguard, Spell Resistance & Breton, Fire Resistance & Dunmer, Poison/Disease Resistance & Argonian). The skills in their 'pool' would fit into 2 of the above 5 categories, per race, allowing at least two viable 'meta' roles, with the generic options allowing people to spread out beyond the meta if they so choose while still respecting lore.

This is the best post in this thread.

Silver_Strider · December 2018

The way ZOS worded wanting to make racials take into consideration playstyle, I feel that this would be a sort of character origins set up.

So, say for example, you wanted to be a Bosmer Mage, you would select the Bosmer Spinner origin and your racial passives might be altered to be more magical in nature.
Redoran Soldier? Tanky with a focus on Stamina
Shadowscale? Stamina with emphasis on poisons/disease damage

I do see this as being a way to be more flexible with Racial Passives, by making them more versatile overall, rather than static buffs that are the same regardless of playstyle but at the same time, I see ZOS nickel and diming this system to death by making Origin swaps Crown exclusive items, meaning your Telvanni Mage will Always be a Telvanni Mage, even if you want to convert to Stamina because X Patch murdered your build set up and Stamina is now meta, unless you pay up some crowns to change into an Ashlander Mercenary or Morag Tong operative.

Glurin · December 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

The way ZOS worded wanting to make racials take into consideration playstyle, I feel that this would be a sort of character origins set up.

So, say for example, you wanted to be a Bosmer Mage, you would select the Bosmer Spinner origin and your racial passives might be altered to be more magical in nature.
Redoran Soldier? Tanky with a focus on Stamina
Shadowscale? Stamina with emphasis on poisons/disease damage

I do see this as being a way to be more flexible with Racial Passives, by making them more versatile overall, rather than static buffs that are the same regardless of playstyle but at the same time, I see ZOS nickel and diming this system to death by making Origin swaps Crown exclusive items, meaning your Telvanni Mage will Always be a Telvanni Mage, even if you want to convert to Stamina because X Patch murdered your build set up and Stamina is now meta, unless you pay up some crowns to change into an Ashlander Mercenary or Morag Tong operative.

That's somewhat similar to what I thought of a while back with the background passives. I was thinking about how histories work in the Vampires the Masquerade: Bloodlines unofficial patch, which was on my mind at the time because it was updated recently and I was looking at patch notes.

Some of them were straight up stat swaps like switching the priority of your attributes or something. Others gave you some kind of benefit like more strength, but also gave a drawback of some kind, and the drawback can often be pretty pricey. So using your Bosmer mage example, you create a Bosmer as normal with all the same racial passives, but then optionally pick Spinner background, which might give you 3% magicka but you lose 4% stamina. The general idea is keeping the racial flavor while also displaying an upbringing more focused on magic than morning jogs.

Sadly this still wouldn't satisfy metasheep and leaderboard chasers who don't give a rat's ass about anything but raw numbers unless it gets in the way of their headcanon.

dodgehopper_ESO · December 2018

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Can we just STOP tying character passives to RACE?

No.

Elder Scrolls Lore

Each race having specific lore-based skill sets has existed since the beginning of Elder Scrolls, always including a basic description of their racial talents/expectations and sometimes including attribute bonuses, special skills, and resistances/weaknesses.

Arena
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Races
e.g. "Bretons are a tall, dark-haired people. Bretons are highly intelligent and willful people, and have an outgoing personality. It is said that Bretons are weaned on magic, for it seems to suffuse their very being. As a result Bretons take half damage on any Magic based attack, and no damage on a successful save. They are excellent in all the arcane arts."

Daggerfall
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Races
e.g. "Bretons hail from the province of High Rock. You are part of a tall, fair-skinned people, highly intelligent and willful. Magic seems to infuse the very being of the Breton people. As a race, they are more resistant to the effects of hostile magic than any other group, and thus are excellent in all arcane arts. Male and Female Breton character modifiers: +10 Intelligence, +10 Willpower, -10 Strength, -10 Endurance."

Battlespire
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Battlespire:Races
e.g. Highly intelligent and willful, the Bretons have a natural bond with the forces of magicka. Many great sorcerers have come out of their home province of High Rock, and even the humblest of Breton [sic] can boast a high resistance to the destructive powers of magicka. Breton character modifiers: +10 Destruction, +10 Mysticism, +10 Illusion, +5 Alteration, +5 Thaumaturgy, +5 Restoration."

Morrowind
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races
e.g. "Bretons are the human descendants of the Aldmeri-Nedic Manmer of the Merethic Era and are now the inhabitants of the province of High Rock.[...] Bretons make up the peasantry, soldiery, and magical elite of the feudal kingdoms that compete for power. Many are capable mages with innate resistance to magicka. They are known for a proficiency in abstract thinking and unique customs. Bretons appear, by and large, much like other pale-skinned humans. They are usually slight of build and not as muscular as Nords or Redguards. Skill Bonuses: +10 Conjuration, +10 Mysticism, +10 Restoration, +5 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Illusion. "

Oblivion
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
e.g. "In addition to their quick and perceptive grasp of spellcraft, even the humblest of Bretons can boast a resistance to magical energies. They are particularly skilled at summoning and healing magic. Skills: +10 Conjuration, Mysticism, and Restoration; +5 Alchemy, Alteration, and Illusion."

Skyrim
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races
e.g. "In addition to their quick and perceptive grasp of spellcraft, even the humblest of High Rock's Bretons can boast a resistance to magic. Bretons can call upon the Dragonskin power to absorb spells. Skills: +10 Conjuration; +5 Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Restoration, Speech."

Can there be exceptions (e.g. Shalidor, Urag gro-Shub)? Absolutely. But they're just that: exceptions. If Tamriel was populated by hundreds of Nord Mages, and Altmer Two-handed Warriors, it'd make zero sense from a lore point-of-view.

MMORPG Expectations

Races having specific attributes or alternatively being limited to specific classes is consistent with most popular MMOs. It isn't unique to ESO, and it certainly isn't something ZOS should eschew so that John Doe can throw away 24 years of TES's game history because he wants to be a unicorn in the world of Tamriel.

World of Warcraft
https://www.wowhead.com/races
e.g. "The night elves are an ancient and mysterious race. They lived in Kalimdor for thousands of years, undisturbed until the world tree was sacrificed to halt the advance of the Burning Legion prior to the events of World of Warcraft. Racials: Nature Resistance: Reduces Nature damage taken by 1%.; Wisp Spirit: Transform into a wisp upon death, increasing speed by 75%.; Quickness: Increases your chance to dodge melee and ranged attacks by 2%, and your movement speed by 2%.; Shadowmeld: Activate to slip into the shadows, reducing the chance for enemies to detect your presence. Lasts until cancelled or upon moving. Any threat is restored versus enemies still in combat upon cancellation of this effect.; Touch of Elune: Increases your Haste by 1% during the night.Increases your Critical Strike by 1% during the day."

Star Wars: The Old Republic
https://swtor.gamepedia.com/Playable_species
e.g. "Descendants of the original Sith species, the red-skinned Sith purebloods inherit a legacy long intertwined with the dark side. Playable Classes: Sith Inquisitor, Sith Warrior."

Everquest
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:races
e.g. " Barbarians are the remnants of an early civilization of Antonica. Barbarians are generally aligned with the Tribunal, although some do choose to follow other gods. The modern barbarian generally spends their early years hunting in Everfrost. Innate Racial Abilities: Slam, +10 Cold Resist. Available Classes: Beastlord, Berserker, Rogue, Shaman, Warrior. Armor Size: Medium, Large."

Star Trek Online
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Player_race
e.g. "Natives of the planet Ferenginar, Ferengi culture is built on the ideals of free enterprise and profit, and there are 285 Rules of Acquisition that govern Ferengi society. [...] Ferengi are shrewd, perceptive businessmen with a naturally resilient physiology. Innate Traits: Ground bonus - +10 Perception; .25 Flank Damage Reduction; +10% Exploit Damage; 20% energy credit/gold-pressed latinum store discount; +.33 Resistance to Toxic and Radiation."

Conclusion

ESO is already better than some MMORPGs in allowing any race to be any class, any role, and wear any armor, even if it isn't an ideal match. Hell, spend a few bucks and you can also be any alliance. The only constraints are racial passives which have been part of TES since its inception (and which I have demonstrated are addressed by every popular MMORPG). This should not be changed. Period.

The only Lore friendly change would be to implement something akin to Star Trek Online's, "Race-specific Personal traits" where, "Race-specific Personal traits are optionally selectable based on the player's race." In ESO terms it would look something like each race getting to select 5-6 Passive Abilities from a pool which is specifically tailored to their race.

For example:

Breton pool

MUST CHOOSE 1:
Increased experience gain in skill:
- Restoration Staff
- Destruction Staff
- Light Armor

DISTRIBUTE 30% BONUS BETWEEN:
- Max Magicka
- Magicka Recovery

MUST CHOOSE 3:
- Increases your Alliance Points gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your gold gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your crafting inspiration gained by 10% (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any eaten food by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Upon using a potion, gain 12% of your maximum, health, magicka and stamina. (Available to all races)
- Increases spell resistance by X (Breton only)
- Increases damage with Cold, Fire or Shock effects by 4% (Altmer, Breton, Dunmer)
- Reduces the magicka cost of spells by 3% (Altmer, Breton, Dunmer)
- Increases healing done and received by 5% (Altmer, Argonian, Breton)

Redguard pool

MUST CHOOSE 1:
Increased experience gain in skill:
- One Hand and Shield
- Two Handed
- Dual Wield

DISTRIBUTE 30% BONUS BETWEEN:
- Max Stamina
- Stamina Recovery

MUST CHOOSE 3:
- Increases your Alliance Points gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your gold gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your crafting inspiration gained by 10% (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any eaten food by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Upon using a potion, gain 12% of your maximum, health, magicka and stamina. (Available to all races)
- Restores X stamina when damaging an enemy with a melee attack, once every 3 seconds (Redguard only)
- Increases weapon critical chance by 2/5/8% (Bosmer, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc, Redguard)
- Increases damage done on melee weapon attacks by 4% (Bosmer, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc, Redguard)
- Reduces the stamina cost of skills by 3% (Bosmer, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc, Redguard)

Etc.

Effectively:
- Sneak Thief related skills: Khajiit + Bosmer
- Health or Resistance related skills: Argonian + Dunmer + Imperial + Nord + Orc + Redguard
- Stamina or Stamina Damage related skills: Bosmer + Imperial + Khajiit + Nord + Orc + Redguard
- Magicka or Magicka Damage related skills: Altmer + Breton + Dunmer
- Restoration related skills: Altmer + Argonian + Breton

All races would also have a pool of generic skills to choose from (e.g. the 1% AP gain), in addition to a single racial specific skill which confers a small bonus (e.g. Bow attacks returning Stamina & Bosmer, Melee attacks returning Stamina & Redguard, Spell Resistance & Breton, Fire Resistance & Dunmer, Poison/Disease Resistance & Argonian). The skills in their 'pool' would fit into 2 of the above 5 categories, per race, allowing at least two viable 'meta' roles, with the generic options allowing people to spread out beyond the meta if they so choose while still respecting lore.

I like this and I also agree STO Did a good job in this regard.

TheShadowScout · December 2018

Recremen wrote: »

Okay yeah you clearly have no idea what you are talking about and no authority to speak when it comes to evolution. Interbreeding between two species is literally definitionally not viable.

And I never said it was.
I mentioned "interbreeding", and gave dogs as example how interbreeding of different breeds can change things a LOT from the wolves they once were, forming traits that never were a part of the original line all those millenia ago, until you get breeds like pug, chihuaha, dachshund, shar-pei, irish wolfhound, pudel, vorkshire terrier, etc.

Whereever in that did you get the idea I was talking of interbreeding -different- species like cats and dogs??? This isn't star trek where humans can mingle with green-blooded vulcans and pink-blooded klingons, you know...

Recremen wrote: »

You've gone past unconvincing and leaped straight into the pit of "making *** up".

Right back atcha.
When you disagree with someone and cannot find fault in what they say, you seem to like putting words in their mouth you can then attack.
Which tells us quite a bit about the value of your thoughts, does it not?

Recremen wrote: »

That's quite the unsupported speculation. We don't have any indication that their perception of human has changed over time...

Let's see.
We have an lore record of nordic warriors percieving early bretons as a new strain of aldmer instead of human.

Khosey, in his 'Tamrilean Tractates (sic),' transcribes a firsthand account of the "discovery" of the Bretons by a Nordic hunting party. The Bretons, in ten generations of Elven intermingling and slavery, had become scarcely recognizable as humans. Indeed, the hunting party attacked them thinking they were some new strain of Aldmeri, halting their slaughter only when one of the oldest began to wail for his life, a shrieking plea that was spoken in broken Nordic.

Bretons are considered a human race in the days of ESO, and look pretty human...
Sounds to me like something must have changed in at least those perceptions, yes?

I assume the same crap that has been going on in human history on earth, how some people were considered "subhuman" just because of having the wrong skin/eye coloration, or not being tall enough, or whatever. But it IS an indication that at some point, at least some of the "humans" of tamriel did consider anyone of breton stock to be "wierd" enough to look at the clothes instead and think "must be some dweeby elf offshoot", yes?

Oh, certainly these nordic warriors did realize their mistake, and switched to the "must be a lost tribe of humans" idea once they realized it was not elves, though we -do- know from the lore that their "mongrel manmer" appearance was not due to any "lost tribe that looked like that from the start" but through interbreeding with the direnni. It is stated, mutiple times!
There it is, right in the lore you so often cite.

Recremen wrote: »

It is therefore more likely that this lorebook is not giving an honest account of that particular engagement...

Oh?
So now you agree with me that the lorebooks you so cherish are wholly inaccurate?
Or is it you only consider them inaccurate when they do not support -your- opinion???
That's quite a bit hypocritical, is it not?

Recremen wrote: »

I'm not "ignoring half the lore", why lie?

That's what I wonder about you. See above for the latest example.

And you do seem to cherry-pick those bits of the lore that support your point as "accurate" while discarding anything that opposes your point as "inaccurate" - which is "ignoring half the lore".
I say again, ALL the lorebooks are subjective and inaccurate. Thus they cannot be taken as hard evidence, while the intent of the developers behind it is the "truth" of the elder scrolls setting! Sometimes that's pretty clear, sometimes that changes over time, and sometimes its rather vague.

Recremen wrote: »

Bretons look very clearly human, so unless you want to argue that they went through yet another change (and at that point, using your own argument, why would they still call themselves Bretons?).

...yes? Unless... what?
...maybe... unless you want to argue that they went through yet another change... perhaps... the -perception- of what is "human" or not changed over time in the landsa of tamriel? Hmmm?

Recremen wrote: »

And there is more to reading lorebooks than the extremes of "everything is fake" and "everything is canon". You should be able to form opinions on the veracity of some particular statement in a lorebook...

...by comparing it to the other information. Not just lorebooks, but also the developers intent behind them. That way you get to the "truth" of the fluff, not by trying to argue the developers were wrong about their own creation when it comes to some point you disagree with!

And yeah, I know I do that too, sometimes, when I disagree with something a creator adds or changes, or doesn't do (Solo shot first!). But I at least freely admit it instead of decieving myself by pridefully thinking I alone get to tell the world how its got to be.

Recremen wrote: »

I haven't "disregarded" anything.

Oh?

Recremen wrote: »

It is therefore more likely that this lorebook is not giving an honest account of that particular engagement...

...looks like you disregard something as "not giving an honest account" as soon as it disagrees with your point, huh?

And you did disrergard the racial descriptions from the start, right?

Recremen wrote: »

Why lie about me cherry-picking lore?

Why lie about not cherry-picking lore? You obviously do it after all?

Recremen wrote: »

Magical changes do not make racials more likely

Actually it does.
Because magical "deus ex machine" change is far more likely to change things beyond the evolutionary score then even a evolution happening in a magical world ever could. Since its -literally- change according to the pure will of some diety, unconstrained by any logical or other contraints!

Recremen wrote: »

The burden is still on us to show that it actually happened, otherwise we're speculating with nothing to back it up...

Wrong.
We -know- something happened because the developers assigned different racial passives to the different races despite them descending from a common ancestor people.
As for the rest, well... most of which IS speculation, true enough. Logical deduction as to -where- change might have happened.

See, that's the thing with your argument. You say, we need to -prove- something for it to be true. I say, the developers made it true when they made that choice, and thus it needs no further "proof" - because those in charge made that choice.
Their world, their "house rules". It is -literally- writte in the rules!
Yeah, they changed things now and then... just like i can change the house rules in my house. But I do not need to prove the veracity of my house rules to a visitor, because it is still my house. And the power to set the "house rules" for the TES setting comes with the license. We can argue which change to the rules might be a benefit, or not, but we -cannot- argue that any rule without "proof" must be abolished - because it still is their decision and not anyone elses.

And that is the main issue I have with your arguing. You fail to provide arguments how a change to drop the racial differences might be beneficial, the core of your argument seems to be: no proof in the parts of the lore I deem "accurate", while declaring any lore that contradicts your arguments as "inaccurate", keep making statements about something has been "disproven" when in fact you have never proven anything to anyone except yourself it seems.

And I still say, the lorebooks do not provide any solid proof either way, and the rules DO provide solid proof for racial differences... but their depiction in the game can be widely variable throughoiut the various games... so we should work with that and think of whatever changes in the depiction of the established racial flavors might benefit the game.

And the rest is nothing but throwing useless arguments that will not convince either of us. So I will no longer bother to play argument ping-pong with you here...

Recremen wrote: »

The real elder scrolls flavor is the complexity of the world, the depth of the cultures in it, and the way that despite how alien the world can get, it is still full of very relatable experiences.

True enough. But the racial differenced add to that, not detract from it. As long as they are done -right-, which currently it somewhat suboptimal in execution in my opinion.

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

The only Lore friendly change would be to implement something akin to Star Trek Online's, "Race-specific Personal traits" where, "Race-specific Personal traits are optionally selectable based on the player's race." In ESO terms it would look something like each race getting to select 5-6 Passive Abilities from a pool which is specifically tailored to their race.

Personally I have been trying for something along those lines with my Background Passives idea... like, reduce the "racial passives" to the "race pool", letting people decide themselves if they want to spend skill mpoints there or not, and add a "background pool" of -additional- passives where everyone can pick and choose whatever suits their character background or idea...

I could also see "passive morphs", as long as each morph kept with the racial theme... though I really would want to see the "percentage on top" mechanic decoupled from ALL racial passives, since its way too constraining in a "must have" way.

And yeah, I also agree that STO did a great job at "racial differences" without "pigeonholing" races into roles... and would have liked to see such a system in ESO. Sadly... we have what we have, and discussing -changes- and -additions- to an existing system would seem more likely to bear fruit then just going "throw it out the airlock" and discussing entirely new systems that would have to be done from scratch. Keep the thoughts for the next game tho!

mxxo · December 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Can we just STOP tying character passives to RACE?

No.

Elder Scrolls Lore

Each race having specific lore-based skill sets has existed since the beginning of Elder Scrolls, always including a basic description of their racial talents/expectations and sometimes including attribute bonuses, special skills, and resistances/weaknesses.

Arena
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Races
e.g. "Bretons are a tall, dark-haired people. Bretons are highly intelligent and willful people, and have an outgoing personality. It is said that Bretons are weaned on magic, for it seems to suffuse their very being. As a result Bretons take half damage on any Magic based attack, and no damage on a successful save. They are excellent in all the arcane arts."

Daggerfall
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Races
e.g. "Bretons hail from the province of High Rock. You are part of a tall, fair-skinned people, highly intelligent and willful. Magic seems to infuse the very being of the Breton people. As a race, they are more resistant to the effects of hostile magic than any other group, and thus are excellent in all arcane arts. Male and Female Breton character modifiers: +10 Intelligence, +10 Willpower, -10 Strength, -10 Endurance."

Battlespire
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Battlespire:Races
e.g. Highly intelligent and willful, the Bretons have a natural bond with the forces of magicka. Many great sorcerers have come out of their home province of High Rock, and even the humblest of Breton [sic] can boast a high resistance to the destructive powers of magicka. Breton character modifiers: +10 Destruction, +10 Mysticism, +10 Illusion, +5 Alteration, +5 Thaumaturgy, +5 Restoration."

Morrowind
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races
e.g. "Bretons are the human descendants of the Aldmeri-Nedic Manmer of the Merethic Era and are now the inhabitants of the province of High Rock.[...] Bretons make up the peasantry, soldiery, and magical elite of the feudal kingdoms that compete for power. Many are capable mages with innate resistance to magicka. They are known for a proficiency in abstract thinking and unique customs. Bretons appear, by and large, much like other pale-skinned humans. They are usually slight of build and not as muscular as Nords or Redguards. Skill Bonuses: +10 Conjuration, +10 Mysticism, +10 Restoration, +5 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Illusion. "

Oblivion
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
e.g. "In addition to their quick and perceptive grasp of spellcraft, even the humblest of Bretons can boast a resistance to magical energies. They are particularly skilled at summoning and healing magic. Skills: +10 Conjuration, Mysticism, and Restoration; +5 Alchemy, Alteration, and Illusion."

Skyrim
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races
e.g. "In addition to their quick and perceptive grasp of spellcraft, even the humblest of High Rock's Bretons can boast a resistance to magic. Bretons can call upon the Dragonskin power to absorb spells. Skills: +10 Conjuration; +5 Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Restoration, Speech."

Can there be exceptions (e.g. Shalidor, Urag gro-Shub)? Absolutely. But they're just that: exceptions. If Tamriel was populated by hundreds of Nord Mages, and Altmer Two-handed Warriors, it'd make zero sense from a lore point-of-view.

MMORPG Expectations

Races having specific attributes or alternatively being limited to specific classes is consistent with most popular MMOs. It isn't unique to ESO, and it certainly isn't something ZOS should eschew so that John Doe can throw away 24 years of TES's game history because he wants to be a unicorn in the world of Tamriel.

World of Warcraft
https://www.wowhead.com/races
e.g. "The night elves are an ancient and mysterious race. They lived in Kalimdor for thousands of years, undisturbed until the world tree was sacrificed to halt the advance of the Burning Legion prior to the events of World of Warcraft. Racials: Nature Resistance: Reduces Nature damage taken by 1%.; Wisp Spirit: Transform into a wisp upon death, increasing speed by 75%.; Quickness: Increases your chance to dodge melee and ranged attacks by 2%, and your movement speed by 2%.; Shadowmeld: Activate to slip into the shadows, reducing the chance for enemies to detect your presence. Lasts until cancelled or upon moving. Any threat is restored versus enemies still in combat upon cancellation of this effect.; Touch of Elune: Increases your Haste by 1% during the night.Increases your Critical Strike by 1% during the day."

Star Wars: The Old Republic
https://swtor.gamepedia.com/Playable_species
e.g. "Descendants of the original Sith species, the red-skinned Sith purebloods inherit a legacy long intertwined with the dark side. Playable Classes: Sith Inquisitor, Sith Warrior."

Everquest
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:races
e.g. " Barbarians are the remnants of an early civilization of Antonica. Barbarians are generally aligned with the Tribunal, although some do choose to follow other gods. The modern barbarian generally spends their early years hunting in Everfrost. Innate Racial Abilities: Slam, +10 Cold Resist. Available Classes: Beastlord, Berserker, Rogue, Shaman, Warrior. Armor Size: Medium, Large."

Star Trek Online
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Player_race
e.g. "Natives of the planet Ferenginar, Ferengi culture is built on the ideals of free enterprise and profit, and there are 285 Rules of Acquisition that govern Ferengi society. [...] Ferengi are shrewd, perceptive businessmen with a naturally resilient physiology. Innate Traits: Ground bonus - +10 Perception; .25 Flank Damage Reduction; +10% Exploit Damage; 20% energy credit/gold-pressed latinum store discount; +.33 Resistance to Toxic and Radiation."

Conclusion

ESO is already better than some MMORPGs in allowing any race to be any class, any role, and wear any armor, even if it isn't an ideal match. Hell, spend a few bucks and you can also be any alliance. The only constraints are racial passives which have been part of TES since its inception (and which I have demonstrated are addressed by every popular MMORPG). This should not be changed. Period.

The only Lore friendly change would be to implement something akin to Star Trek Online's, "Race-specific Personal traits" where, "Race-specific Personal traits are optionally selectable based on the player's race." In ESO terms it would look something like each race getting to select 5-6 Passive Abilities from a pool which is specifically tailored to their race.

For example:

Breton pool

MUST CHOOSE 1:
Increased experience gain in skill:
- Restoration Staff
- Destruction Staff
- Light Armor

DISTRIBUTE 30% BONUS BETWEEN:
- Max Magicka
- Magicka Recovery

MUST CHOOSE 3:
- Increases your Alliance Points gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your gold gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your crafting inspiration gained by 10% (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any eaten food by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Upon using a potion, gain 12% of your maximum, health, magicka and stamina. (Available to all races)
- Increases spell resistance by X (Breton only)
- Increases damage with Cold, Fire or Shock effects by 4% (Altmer, Breton, Dunmer)
- Reduces the magicka cost of spells by 3% (Altmer, Breton, Dunmer)
- Increases healing done and received by 5% (Altmer, Argonian, Breton)

Redguard pool

MUST CHOOSE 1:
Increased experience gain in skill:
- One Hand and Shield
- Two Handed
- Dual Wield

DISTRIBUTE 30% BONUS BETWEEN:
- Max Stamina
- Stamina Recovery

MUST CHOOSE 3:
- Increases your Alliance Points gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your gold gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your crafting inspiration gained by 10% (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any eaten food by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Upon using a potion, gain 12% of your maximum, health, magicka and stamina. (Available to all races)
- Restores X stamina when damaging an enemy with a melee attack, once every 3 seconds (Redguard only)
- Increases weapon critical chance by 2/5/8% (Bosmer, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc, Redguard)
- Increases damage done on melee weapon attacks by 4% (Bosmer, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc, Redguard)
- Reduces the stamina cost of skills by 3% (Bosmer, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc, Redguard)

Etc.

Effectively:
- Sneak Thief related skills: Khajiit + Bosmer
- Health or Resistance related skills: Argonian + Dunmer + Imperial + Nord + Orc + Redguard
- Stamina or Stamina Damage related skills: Bosmer + Imperial + Khajiit + Nord + Orc + Redguard
- Magicka or Magicka Damage related skills: Altmer + Breton + Dunmer
- Restoration related skills: Altmer + Argonian + Breton

All races would also have a pool of generic skills to choose from (e.g. the 1% AP gain), in addition to a single racial specific skill which confers a small bonus (e.g. Bow attacks returning Stamina & Bosmer, Melee attacks returning Stamina & Redguard, Spell Resistance & Breton, Fire Resistance & Dunmer, Poison/Disease Resistance & Argonian). The skills in their 'pool' would fit into 2 of the above 5 categories, per race, allowing at least two viable 'meta' roles, with the generic options allowing people to spread out beyond the meta if they so choose while still respecting lore.

This is the best post in this thread.

Well honestly i dont care about how other games deal with it. The Elder Scrolls Games were Solo Games that gave you a very ordinary setup of each race. But it doesnt mean that all individuals of that race were simple wooden puppets like this. Also it has nothing to do with lore as it reflects only these average individuals. And only because it was like this for some time in games, it doesnt mean it cant develop. Just listing some games and telling how something was 20 years ago is no valid point for me. If we would argue like this, we all still would play this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia8bhFoqkVE

And if you look at the Bosmer for example, they always had an affinity to Illusion, Alteration, and Alchemy which are all magic skills. And they need mana to utilize that. I could imagine them also perfectly as warden healers. In ESO they are reduced to a pure stam race. How is that lore?
Also Nords for example had always Mages. Not every Nord is a Fighter.. and not every Altmer is a god in magic.

dodgehopper_ESO · December 2018

mxxo wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Can we just STOP tying character passives to RACE?

No.

Elder Scrolls Lore

Each race having specific lore-based skill sets has existed since the beginning of Elder Scrolls, always including a basic description of their racial talents/expectations and sometimes including attribute bonuses, special skills, and resistances/weaknesses.

Arena
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Races
e.g. "Bretons are a tall, dark-haired people. Bretons are highly intelligent and willful people, and have an outgoing personality. It is said that Bretons are weaned on magic, for it seems to suffuse their very being. As a result Bretons take half damage on any Magic based attack, and no damage on a successful save. They are excellent in all the arcane arts."

Daggerfall
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Races
e.g. "Bretons hail from the province of High Rock. You are part of a tall, fair-skinned people, highly intelligent and willful. Magic seems to infuse the very being of the Breton people. As a race, they are more resistant to the effects of hostile magic than any other group, and thus are excellent in all arcane arts. Male and Female Breton character modifiers: +10 Intelligence, +10 Willpower, -10 Strength, -10 Endurance."

Battlespire
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Battlespire:Races
e.g. Highly intelligent and willful, the Bretons have a natural bond with the forces of magicka. Many great sorcerers have come out of their home province of High Rock, and even the humblest of Breton [sic] can boast a high resistance to the destructive powers of magicka. Breton character modifiers: +10 Destruction, +10 Mysticism, +10 Illusion, +5 Alteration, +5 Thaumaturgy, +5 Restoration."

Morrowind
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races
e.g. "Bretons are the human descendants of the Aldmeri-Nedic Manmer of the Merethic Era and are now the inhabitants of the province of High Rock.[...] Bretons make up the peasantry, soldiery, and magical elite of the feudal kingdoms that compete for power. Many are capable mages with innate resistance to magicka. They are known for a proficiency in abstract thinking and unique customs. Bretons appear, by and large, much like other pale-skinned humans. They are usually slight of build and not as muscular as Nords or Redguards. Skill Bonuses: +10 Conjuration, +10 Mysticism, +10 Restoration, +5 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Illusion. "

Oblivion
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
e.g. "In addition to their quick and perceptive grasp of spellcraft, even the humblest of Bretons can boast a resistance to magical energies. They are particularly skilled at summoning and healing magic. Skills: +10 Conjuration, Mysticism, and Restoration; +5 Alchemy, Alteration, and Illusion."

Skyrim
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races
e.g. "In addition to their quick and perceptive grasp of spellcraft, even the humblest of High Rock's Bretons can boast a resistance to magic. Bretons can call upon the Dragonskin power to absorb spells. Skills: +10 Conjuration; +5 Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Restoration, Speech."

Can there be exceptions (e.g. Shalidor, Urag gro-Shub)? Absolutely. But they're just that: exceptions. If Tamriel was populated by hundreds of Nord Mages, and Altmer Two-handed Warriors, it'd make zero sense from a lore point-of-view.

MMORPG Expectations

Races having specific attributes or alternatively being limited to specific classes is consistent with most popular MMOs. It isn't unique to ESO, and it certainly isn't something ZOS should eschew so that John Doe can throw away 24 years of TES's game history because he wants to be a unicorn in the world of Tamriel.

World of Warcraft
https://www.wowhead.com/races
e.g. "The night elves are an ancient and mysterious race. They lived in Kalimdor for thousands of years, undisturbed until the world tree was sacrificed to halt the advance of the Burning Legion prior to the events of World of Warcraft. Racials: Nature Resistance: Reduces Nature damage taken by 1%.; Wisp Spirit: Transform into a wisp upon death, increasing speed by 75%.; Quickness: Increases your chance to dodge melee and ranged attacks by 2%, and your movement speed by 2%.; Shadowmeld: Activate to slip into the shadows, reducing the chance for enemies to detect your presence. Lasts until cancelled or upon moving. Any threat is restored versus enemies still in combat upon cancellation of this effect.; Touch of Elune: Increases your Haste by 1% during the night.Increases your Critical Strike by 1% during the day."

Star Wars: The Old Republic
https://swtor.gamepedia.com/Playable_species
e.g. "Descendants of the original Sith species, the red-skinned Sith purebloods inherit a legacy long intertwined with the dark side. Playable Classes: Sith Inquisitor, Sith Warrior."

Everquest
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:races
e.g. " Barbarians are the remnants of an early civilization of Antonica. Barbarians are generally aligned with the Tribunal, although some do choose to follow other gods. The modern barbarian generally spends their early years hunting in Everfrost. Innate Racial Abilities: Slam, +10 Cold Resist. Available Classes: Beastlord, Berserker, Rogue, Shaman, Warrior. Armor Size: Medium, Large."

Star Trek Online
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Player_race
e.g. "Natives of the planet Ferenginar, Ferengi culture is built on the ideals of free enterprise and profit, and there are 285 Rules of Acquisition that govern Ferengi society. [...] Ferengi are shrewd, perceptive businessmen with a naturally resilient physiology. Innate Traits: Ground bonus - +10 Perception; .25 Flank Damage Reduction; +10% Exploit Damage; 20% energy credit/gold-pressed latinum store discount; +.33 Resistance to Toxic and Radiation."

Conclusion

ESO is already better than some MMORPGs in allowing any race to be any class, any role, and wear any armor, even if it isn't an ideal match. Hell, spend a few bucks and you can also be any alliance. The only constraints are racial passives which have been part of TES since its inception (and which I have demonstrated are addressed by every popular MMORPG). This should not be changed. Period.

The only Lore friendly change would be to implement something akin to Star Trek Online's, "Race-specific Personal traits" where, "Race-specific Personal traits are optionally selectable based on the player's race." In ESO terms it would look something like each race getting to select 5-6 Passive Abilities from a pool which is specifically tailored to their race.

For example:

Breton pool

MUST CHOOSE 1:
Increased experience gain in skill:
- Restoration Staff
- Destruction Staff
- Light Armor

DISTRIBUTE 30% BONUS BETWEEN:
- Max Magicka
- Magicka Recovery

MUST CHOOSE 3:
- Increases your Alliance Points gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your gold gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your crafting inspiration gained by 10% (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any eaten food by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Upon using a potion, gain 12% of your maximum, health, magicka and stamina. (Available to all races)
- Increases spell resistance by X (Breton only)
- Increases damage with Cold, Fire or Shock effects by 4% (Altmer, Breton, Dunmer)
- Reduces the magicka cost of spells by 3% (Altmer, Breton, Dunmer)
- Increases healing done and received by 5% (Altmer, Argonian, Breton)

Redguard pool

MUST CHOOSE 1:
Increased experience gain in skill:
- One Hand and Shield
- Two Handed
- Dual Wield

DISTRIBUTE 30% BONUS BETWEEN:
- Max Stamina
- Stamina Recovery

MUST CHOOSE 3:
- Increases your Alliance Points gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your gold gained by 1% (Available to all races)
- Increases your crafting inspiration gained by 10% (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any eaten food by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes (Available to all races)
- Upon using a potion, gain 12% of your maximum, health, magicka and stamina. (Available to all races)
- Restores X stamina when damaging an enemy with a melee attack, once every 3 seconds (Redguard only)
- Increases weapon critical chance by 2/5/8% (Bosmer, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc, Redguard)
- Increases damage done on melee weapon attacks by 4% (Bosmer, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc, Redguard)
- Reduces the stamina cost of skills by 3% (Bosmer, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc, Redguard)

Etc.

Effectively:
- Sneak Thief related skills: Khajiit + Bosmer
- Health or Resistance related skills: Argonian + Dunmer + Imperial + Nord + Orc + Redguard
- Stamina or Stamina Damage related skills: Bosmer + Imperial + Khajiit + Nord + Orc + Redguard
- Magicka or Magicka Damage related skills: Altmer + Breton + Dunmer
- Restoration related skills: Altmer + Argonian + Breton

All races would also have a pool of generic skills to choose from (e.g. the 1% AP gain), in addition to a single racial specific skill which confers a small bonus (e.g. Bow attacks returning Stamina & Bosmer, Melee attacks returning Stamina & Redguard, Spell Resistance & Breton, Fire Resistance & Dunmer, Poison/Disease Resistance & Argonian). The skills in their 'pool' would fit into 2 of the above 5 categories, per race, allowing at least two viable 'meta' roles, with the generic options allowing people to spread out beyond the meta if they so choose while still respecting lore.

This is the best post in this thread.

Well honestly i dont care about how other games deal with it. The Elder Scrolls Games were Solo Games that gave you a very ordinary setup of each race. But it doesnt mean that all individuals of that race were simple wooden puppets like this. Also it has nothing to do with lore as it reflects only these average individuals. And only because it was like this for some time in games, it doesnt mean it cant develop. Just listing some games and telling how something was 20 years ago is no valid point for me. If we would argue like this, we all still would play this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia8bhFoqkVE

And if you look at the Bosmer for example, they always had an affinity to Illusion, Alteration, and Alchemy which are all magic skills. And they need mana to utilize that. I could imagine them also perfectly as warden healers. In ESO they are reduced to a pure stam race. How is that lore?
Also Nords for example had always Mages. Not every Nord is a Fighter.. and not every Altmer is a god in magic.

Don't mock Super Mario!!!

In all seriousness I agree particularly with the premise that I liked the old Attributes/Skills of previous TES games and I definitely was disappointed that the MMO version did not continue that path when Beta released. At that point though there was no way for them to turn the ship. Dragon Knights looked really cool and made me think of Scorpion from Mortal Kombat. Templars were fantastic looking with their shiny golden knight style. The game also had some really strange manifestations of the starting rule system where class skills were 100% magical. It felt really confining. A lot has changed in the systems since then. I definitely believe there are solutions. I agree the systems as they stand do not handle the nuance well for anything, including the races of the series.

HallowedUndead · December 2018

Good old skyrim character. I made you to be a tanky nord, but you became a all-powerful mage.

Recremen · January 2019

Glurin wrote: »

offs, Nords have more fat deposits, alright?! There you go. Racial cold resistance explained without anything mystical.

Seriously, why is it so hard for you to grasp that in a world populated by races with very different biology, there just might be certain traits common to all members of each race?

This is just comedy gold: "Nobody is jumping at the idea of giving Nords a racial bonus to basketweaving, or Argonians a bonus to growing potatoes, but those actually make more sense for racial traits than some kind of bonus to health regen or whatever."

Why in Oblivion does it make more sense for Argonians to have a bonus to growing potatoes than to health regen? They're lizards for crying out loud! Did you never learn what happens if you pull the tail off a lizard? You think a human could do the same thing if their arm was torn off?

If it were about fat deposits then why don't people gain more cold resistance by making fat characters? Are you just unwilling to do any consistency checking whatsoever?

And there's only a couple of races with extremely different biology, Argonians and Khajiit. Yet even these races are tool-using, society-building people capable of language and other features which indicate a species reliance on adaptability, not some mystical race essentialism.

Also, both of your final claims are wrong. Not all lizards regrow their tails (and even the ones that do end up in poorer health and with shorter lifespans) and Argonians don't have a bonus to health regen. You're thinking of Khajiit, Orcs, and Nords (subject to change with the next patch). What is so damn difficult about checking basic facts before posting?

Recremen · January 2019

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And I never said it was.
I mentioned "interbreeding", and gave dogs as example how interbreeding of different breeds can change things a LOT from the wolves they once were, forming traits that never were a part of the original line all those millenia ago, until you get breeds like pug, chihuaha, dachshund, shar-pei, irish wolfhound, pudel, vorkshire terrier, etc.

Whereever in that did you get the idea I was talking of interbreeding -different- species like cats and dogs??? This isn't star trek where humans can mingle with green-blooded vulcans and pink-blooded klingons, you know...

Do you seriously just forget the things you type at the earliest possible convenience? You had a whole spinoff argument about how Bretons breeding with the Direnni was an evolutionary process. What's your next brilliant twist, that Men are just different breeds of Mer? Regardless, creating a new “breed” of a species is not an evolutionary process. It is specifically an artificial selection, and absent the human social constructs that encourage such breeding practices these animals quickly turn to mutts. Human intervention is not generally considered a selective pressure in any kind of natural sense.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Let's see.
We have an lore record of nordic warriors percieving early bretons as a new strain of aldmer instead of human.

Khosey, in his 'Tamrilean Tractates (sic),' transcribes a firsthand account of the "discovery" of the Bretons by a Nordic hunting party. The Bretons, in ten generations of Elven intermingling and slavery, had become scarcely recognizable as humans. Indeed, the hunting party attacked them thinking they were some new strain of Aldmeri, halting their slaughter only when one of the oldest began to wail for his life, a shrieking plea that was spoken in broken Nordic.

Bretons are considered a human race in the days of ESO, and look pretty human...
Sounds to me like something must have changed in at least those perceptions, yes?

That's just circular logic. That passage is literally what is under contention but you're coming back around to try and use it as proof of its own legitimacy? Honestly that's just pathetic.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I assume the same crap that has been going on in human history on earth, how some people were considered "subhuman" just because of having the wrong skin/eye coloration, or not being tall enough, or whatever. But it IS an indication that at some point, at least some of the "humans" of tamriel did consider anyone of breton stock to be "wierd" enough to look at the clothes instead and think "must be some dweeby elf offshoot", yes?

No, it's much more likely to be historic revisionism on the part of the Imperial author who didn't want to tick off any potential Nord readers, who along with the Redguards are the only other “pure” race of humans on Tamriel. As I've already demonstrated, the rest of the available accounts of Breton heritage insist that Bretons looked quite human and quite like their original tribe.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Oh, certainly these nordic warriors did realize their mistake, and switched to the "must be a lost tribe of humans" idea once they realized it was not elves, though we -do- know from the lore that their "mongrel manmer" appearance was not due to any "lost tribe that looked like that from the start" but through interbreeding with the direnni. It is stated, mutiple times!
There it is, right in the lore you so often cite.

Once again, if you actually took the time to read things you wouldn't make such a fool of yourself. Your first link here is just to the Pocket Guide 3rd edition, which is just a retelling of the same exact thing from the Pocket Guide 1st edition that you linked earlier. That's the same author saying the same thing twice, which in no way should be considered “multiple sources”. Your second link LITERALLY CONTRADICTS YOUR CLAIM, and is one of the sources I have been using to prove you wrong. It says, and I quote, “ The Breton caste was only allowed to marry humans, so over time their Elven blood became more diluted, and the Nedic appearance predominated.” There it is, right there in the lore that I so often cite. The Bretons look like the tribe they are descended from.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Oh?
So now you agree with me that the lorebooks you so cherish are wholly inaccurate?
Or is it you only consider them inaccurate when they do not support -your- opinion???
That's quite a bit hypocritical, is it not?

No, because I'm not a simpleton. They are not wholly inaccurate, but you can't take everything in them as gospel truth. You ought to build your opinions from a wide range of sources, think about the motivation of the in-game author, and what the actual out-of-game author is trying to signal about their perspective. If you can't grasp those kind of basic literary analysis concepts then I just don't know what to say. Get a refund on your primary and secondary education?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And you do seem to cherry-pick those bits of the lore that support your point as "accurate" while discarding anything that opposes your point as "inaccurate" - which is "ignoring half the lore".
I say again, ALL the lorebooks are subjective and inaccurate. Thus they cannot be taken as hard evidence, while the intent of the developers behind it is the "truth" of the elder scrolls setting! Sometimes that's pretty clear, sometimes that changes over time, and sometimes its rather vague.

I am not discarding anything. I've addressed your concerns regarding the Pocket Guide account, what, twice now? I've not discarded anything, but instead called into question why you want to take that particular passage at face value. Keep in mind that this same author, when speaking of the Altmer, believes this account to be “reliable” information :

High elves consider themselves to be the only perfect race. Over hundreds of generations they have bred themselves into a racially pure line, and are now almost identical to one another in appearance. The theory that the High Elves do not reproduce as quickly or as often as humans is false. Rather, and to my horror, they kill nine out of ten babies born to them in their obsession for purity.
"The Altmer despise other Elves as unsophisticated churls and barely consider the non-Aldmeri races at all. They pay their Imperial tithes, I'm sure, not for fear of war with the humans but rather to keep an invasion from "infecting" their islands.
"Breeding outside the pure line is a terrible, unthinkable crime, and taken as prima facia evidence of the tainted blood of the individual in question- if they were, they wouldn't have the impulse to do it. Exile to the mainland is regarded as equivalent to a death sentence, since there is no purpose in living outside their ideal society.
"They have a high regard for order and gravitate naturally towards wearing uniforms and speaking in formal patterns. Their trees and their livestock have been bred to be as standard and ideal as they are. They have no real names of their own, only combinations of numbers that, when spoken aloud, sound to human ears as such. They feel no real tenderness for one another and have no concept of compassion.

Now to someone with academic training, this tells us a great deal about Imperial/Altmer relations. It does not, however, tell us a great deal about actual Altmer society, though it may scratch the surface with some half-truths that we'd want to corroborate with more level-headed sources later. I don't propose that we “discard” any bit of the pocket guides, but instead use our brains and try to pick out the truth from the fiction. I'm not afraid of getting down into the nitty-gritty like this and being responsible with the source material, but you seem to be advocating that either everything has to be 100% true all the time, or that we have to discount all the lorebooks 100% of the time. Sorry, but we really don't need to deal in such absolutes. Why not, instead, try to make an argument for why your excerpt should be taken as more authoritative than my excerpts? Do you lack the courage, the good faith, or just the know-how? Why try to accuse me of things that are so blatantly false instead of just making your position more robust?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...by comparing it to the other information. Not just lorebooks, but also the developers intent behind them. That way you get to the "truth" of the fluff, not by trying to argue the developers were wrong about their own creation when it comes to some point you disagree with!

First, you haven't shown anything that could be construed as “the truth of the fluff” with which you might compare the lorebooks. Second, no, if you can't make lore arguments using the enormous repository of actual, developer-created lore then you just have a weak position and bad academic training. Also, it's a lot more likely that the developers disagreed with the developers resulting in this dichotomy of “let's have a game universe populated by complex and interesting people, but also racials as a game mechanic”. Kind of like how developers keep disagreeing with previous developers about what passives each race should have.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I haven't "disregarded" anything.

Oh?

Recremen wrote: »

It is therefore more likely that this lorebook is not giving an honest account of that particular engagement...

...looks like you disregard something as "not giving an honest account" as soon as it disagrees with your point, huh?

And you did disrergard the racial descriptions from the start, right?

No, on both accounts. Disregarding something is not the same as engaging with something. In fact, it's the exact opposite. In the first, I disregarded the quoted passages then I wouldn't be making arguments about their veracity at all, I would simply be ignoring the fact that you quoted them. Instead, I've offered in-lore rationale for why those particular passages are untrustworthy. Do you just not understand the difference? In the second, I offered a real-world explanation for why devs might give racial descriptions which, I have shown, contradict the in-game diversity of the races they try to describe. Your accusation and the reality could hardly be farther apart.

Recremen wrote: »

Magical changes do not make racials more likely

Actually it does.
Because magical "deus ex machine" change is far more likely to change things beyond the evolutionary score then even a evolution happening in a magical world ever could. Since its -literally- change according to the pure will of some diety, unconstrained by any logical or other contraints!
[/quote]

Actually, it doesn't. It seems ridiculous that I even have to say this, but it doesn't seem like you understand how probability works. A magical deus ex has infinite possibility, but any particular change is not more likely than another. You can't just say, for example, that Argonians are made of banana pudding. It's certainly possible by magical deus ex, but it's not more likely. You'd need a lore reference to secure the deus ex argument, like some lorebook titled “Are Argonians Made of Banana Pudding” and the single line “Yes.”. But we don't have that, so it doesn't help our argument, and it doesn't help your argument.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

The burden is still on us to show that it actually happened, otherwise we're speculating with nothing to back it up...

Wrong.
We -know- something happened because the developers assigned different racial passives to the different races despite them descending from a common ancestor people.
As for the rest, well... most of which IS speculation, true enough. Logical deduction as to -where- change might have happened.

Ones that change repeatedly throughout the games and sometimes don't exist. We don't “know” anything based on game mechanics. Do we also know that armor resizes to fit its wearer? No, that's ridiculous (if incredibly cool), and is probably just a game mechanic to make it more interesting/easier to play.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

See, that's the thing with your argument. You say, we need to -prove- something for it to be true. I say, the developers made it true when they made that choice, and thus it needs no further "proof" - because those in charge made that choice.
Their world, their "house rules". It is -literally- writte in the rules!
Yeah, they changed things now and then... just like i can change the house rules in my house. But I do not need to prove the veracity of my house rules to a visitor, because it is still my house. And the power to set the "house rules" for the TES setting comes with the license. We can argue which change to the rules might be a benefit, or not, but we -cannot- argue that any rule without "proof" must be abolished - because it still is their decision and not anyone elses.

You are misrepresenting my argument. I am saying that racials don't make sense in the context of the lore. We don't need to “prove” that racials exist in the lore in order to have them as game mechanics, but I find it really weird that they aren't in the lore and would prefer to just see them go away. If the devs eventually agree, then cool, if not, oh well, I'll keep chiming in that they don't make sense.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And that is the main issue I have with your arguing. You fail to provide arguments how a change to drop the racial differences might be beneficial, the core of your argument seems to be: no proof in the parts of the lore I deem "accurate", while declaring any lore that contradicts your arguments as "inaccurate", keep making statements about something has been "disproven" when in fact you have never proven anything to anyone except yourself it seems.

I may be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure I did in fact give some quick commentary on how dropping racials would be good for the game. I'll state some here for the record, though :

First, it would let people roleplay their characters completely unhindered by performance issues. Since this is a social game and there is pressure to pick the right race for your role, players are often caught between playing a fully-realized character with a complex backstory, motivation, and goals, and playing a character that is fully specced to fit their niche on their team. Second, it would open up more build diversity. Currently you are forced into choosing between 9 sets of prefab passives. If they replaced the race-based system with something else, then they're no longer bound to fill 9 presets and can make up any combinations they like. Players would then be able to choose from a greater variety, and ostensibly even pick different BiS gear for their role based on what benefits their passives highlight.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And I still say, the lorebooks do not provide any solid proof either way, and the rules DO provide solid proof for racial differences... but their depiction in the game can be widely variable throughoiut the various games... so we should work with that and think of whatever changes in the depiction of the established racial flavors might benefit the game.

The lorebooks (and again, not just the lorebooks, but also the NPCs and quests in the games) are our window into the world of the Elder Scrolls. The game world is what stays consistent between the titles even when the game mechanics change. I am much more inclined to argue using a particular passage or NPC dialogue as evidence, since those are the most important worldbuilding tools the devs have available, than something that's meant to drive the gameplay. And really, there should be a whole lot of consistency if racials are supposed to be that important. But we really don't see that consistency in the end, so I'd rather talk about the elephant in the room than talk about what flavor it is, thanks.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

True enough. But the racial differenced add to that, not detract from it. As long as they are done -right-, which currently it somewhat suboptimal in execution in my opinion.

I most strongly disagree. Racials do nothing but essentialize cultures which are in all other respects very complex. There's no such thing as doing it right when you're taking away from the diversity within a culture to meet some game mechanic goal.