The issues related to logging in to the European PC/Mac megaserver have been resolved at this time. If you continue to experience difficulties at login, please restart your client. Thank you for your patience!
Snipe From 40 Meters Shouldn't Stun
-
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Judas Helviaryn wrote: »I can't believe people have such an issue with Snipe. All I see are hate and rage from people who don't understand how to counter it, and people who think the loudest ones are the right ones.
You can hear snipe when it is cast on you, even from stealth.
You can preemptively ward, dodge, block, or reflect.
You can unload on people who are snipe spamming, punishing their lack of finesse.
That's literally all the counter-play I need, and that's all there should be.
You know you’re right, so much wisdom. In that case I suppose you won’t mind if Templar javalin gets a 50% damage boost, a 40 meter range and provides major defile in addition to the CC. Does that sound good to you? Sounds good to me. Seeing as you can easily counter it with dodge, block, reflect or ward then it should cause no issues. Never mind the fact that no other skill in the game provides the effects that snipe does except for incap strike, which is melee. Or maybe dizzy swing should also provide major defile? That seems fair. Has a similar cast time, but is much harder to target.4 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »@Aliyavana clearly a 2nd proof you should go PvE since if you go solo vs zergs then again...Pvp its not for you...yes of u have 50 snipers on u at once u insta die but if u have like a bunch of noobs like 3-4 spamming only snipes then it comes to ur skill to demolish them...I play stamblade and unlike the shame of my kind I dont play bow builds cuz they are just bad and once someone gets close and it does u are dead in 2 swings.
Same lines thrown around every time someone complains about NB ganking. Only a bad NB dies in two shots, if at all. Yet the forums always have NBs pretending otherwise. If you were a sniper, you would simply have to roll and cloak if someone got in your face considering doing that stops nearly every attack in the game from harming you, including some AoEs. But you and the NBs on the forums can keep pretending otherwise...1 -
Jameliel✭✭✭✭✭
✭So getting hit by a few snipes at the same time is bad? It's cool to get hit by 4 steel tornado's, 23 dawnbreakers, 65 shalks, the wrath of a few mages, and throw in a few jesus beams and soul ultis for good measure.... smh
Edited by Jameliel on December 21, 2018 6:13AM5 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KEEP NERFING STAMINA RAGNGED WHILE MAGICKA RANGED IS FAR MORE SUPERIOR HAHAHAH
So what? Stamina is better for melee. Apart from Caluurion mNB cheese there isn’t many viable magicka melee options, except for some DK builds. It’s good to have a distinction. If stamina ranged damage was on par you’d have to bring up magicka melee options much further or stamina would even have a bigger advantage.
Edited by Feanor on December 21, 2018 7:24AMMain characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.2 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Judas Helviaryn wrote: »I can't believe people have such an issue with Snipe. All I see are hate and rage from people who don't understand how to counter it, and people who think the loudest ones are the right ones.
You can hear snipe when it is cast on you, even from stealth.
You can preemptively ward, dodge, block, or reflect.
You can unload on people who are snipe spamming, punishing their lack of finesse.
That's literally all the counter-play I need, and that's all there should be.
You know you’re right, so much wisdom. In that case I suppose you won’t mind if Templar javalin gets a 50% damage boost, a 40 meter range and provides major defile in addition to the CC. Does that sound good to you? Sounds good to me. Seeing as you can easily counter it with dodge, block, reflect or ward then it should cause no issues.
Sure - as long as it gets 1 sec cast time that can be interrupted, and requires you to use a weapon which is 2H yet only has the damage of an one-hander, nerfing pretty much all other damage you do on that bar.
Oh, and it will also lose the knockdown, of course, unless you use it from sneak. Now that i think about it, I'm not sure my templar would be thrilled.
1 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Karmanorway wrote: »Karmanorway wrote: »Just Block or dodge when u hear the snipe, then run to to Archer asap and take him down in 2 hits. Easy peazy, just like what u would do against Steel tornado spammer,
Cause you gonna hear the snipe while fighting someone melee.
And with 40+ meter range and 99% of snipers being NB he is gone before i even closed the gap by 10 Meter.
Good advise
ever heard about detect pots? Inner Light? Major expedition? Sry but if u cant handle snipers thats a l2p issue, and its not often they are 40 meters away .. its pretty rare actually
EDIT: I run full melee builds btw, and i dont struggle With snipers
Ye, come with the l2p issue and advice me to slot certain skills only to counter snipers.
Detect pots have *** uptime and are only usable if you dont have potion cooldown while the sniper can spam his cloak without any cooldown.
Inner light only viable on magicka builds.
Major expedition after nerfmire? Lel.
I dont know wich server/plattform you play on but on PC EU snipers hide on walls or behind their massive zerg completly safe and spamming snipe without any risk for them.
And how to spot a sniper if he instantly cloaks after the snipe hit you? Are you a god or something or just using miats?
Sniping is just coward playstyle. There is no risk for the reward you get. Where is the risk you take by landing 10k+ hits on Heavy Armor targets? Range 40+ meters, can insta cloak and move away in stealth or hide on wall or behind the zerg. If enemy gets near you, just dodge roll once and enjoy major expedition in cloak. Repeat.Edited by Gnozo on December 21, 2018 12:07PM3 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Everybody just roll gankblade bow builds. Problem solved!
Ever notice lately how few cross swords there are? Cause a lot of the population is just invisible, waiting for someone to fight somebody/something else to snipe them in the back.
I dont really have issues with snipe or ganking. My issue is with the combination of stealth and snipe to where they cancel out each others counters. Cloak and hiding boosts snipe while hiding the weaknesses of the cast time and closing in on them. Snipe eliminates PBAOEs and detect pots which are most effective counters to cloak, as well as out ranges mark or ground target AOEs.Edited by technohic on December 21, 2018 12:08PM4 -
TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lol at the people implying OP needs to L2P. @Aliyavana is one of the better stamsorcs within the top MMR tier of PCNA BGs, all the more impressive because he excels without running any cheese in his builds.
I guarantee he'd tear apart any of the naysayers here in a one-on-one. Big surprise they need to fanatically defend their max-range-desynced-dizzying-swing-with-defile-from-stealth playstyle to continue zerging down players like him.
Edit: (spelling)Edited by TheYKcid on December 21, 2018 12:50PMPC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden7 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lol at the people implying OP needs to L2P. @Aliyavana is one of the better stamsorcs within the top MMR tier or BGs, all the more impressive because he excels without running any cheese in his builds.
I guarantee he'd tear apart any of the naysayers here in a one-on-one. Big surprise they need to fanatically defend their max-range-desynced-dizzying-swing-with-defile-from-stealth playstyle to continue zerging down players like him.
Agreed, which is why I am in favor of reamping th skill line by swapping snipe and rapid fire1 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭A new thing that Snipe spammers like to do in BGs is hide on top of their spawn ledge and wait for their teammates to lure other teams into range. The ultimate cowardly play! And since they’re on their effing ledge, you can’t even teabag the POS no-skill scrubs if you manage to burst them down before they cloak.
If you’re a stamNB and you defend Snipe, I beg you: PLEASE try playing another class and playstyle. See how you feel about Snipe when you’re locked in an intense 1v1 or 1vX and you die in one second to a stamNB exploiting Snipe’s health desync bug.5 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chicharron wrote: »Today in battlegrounds some of the opposite team killed us with snipe again and again, in fact we lost and very fast, my team were complaining and crying.
Is part of the game, you can not always win, if you're going to behave like a spoiled child every time you lose. why you do pvp? (i'm generalizing is not against OP)
Today is snipe. what will be tomorrow? nerf light attack?
Why do I PVP? I *gasp* PVP to play against other players. You frequently cannot counter Snipe, because Snipe spammers usually wait until you’re engaged in battle with another player to unload their single button spam on you. Dying in one second to someone you can’t even see is not PVP.
4 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chicharron wrote: »Today in battlegrounds some of the opposite team killed us with snipe again and again, in fact we lost and very fast, my team were complaining and crying.
Is part of the game, you can not always win, if you're going to behave like a spoiled child every time you lose. why you do pvp? (i'm generalizing is not against OP)
Today is snipe. what will be tomorrow? nerf light attack?
Why do I PVP? I *gasp* PVP to play against other players. You frequently cannot counter Snipe, because Snipe spammers usually wait until you’re engaged in battle with another player to unload their single button spam on you. Dying in one second to someone you can’t even see is not PVP.
Reminds me of all the Mage's Wrath on my death recap when I am fighting a DK.Edited by TequilaFire on December 21, 2018 1:55PM3 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »Chicharron wrote: »Today in battlegrounds some of the opposite team killed us with snipe again and again, in fact we lost and very fast, my team were complaining and crying.
Is part of the game, you can not always win, if you're going to behave like a spoiled child every time you lose. why you do pvp? (i'm generalizing is not against OP)
Today is snipe. what will be tomorrow? nerf light attack?
Why do I PVP? I *gasp* PVP to play against other players. You frequently cannot counter Snipe, because Snipe spammers usually wait until you’re engaged in battle with another player to unload their single button spam on you. Dying in one second to someone you can’t even see is not PVP.
Reminds me of all the Mage's Wrath on my death recap when I am fighting a DK.
That would be a relevant comparison if Mage’s Wrath spam stunned you and took you down from 90% health to 0% health in one second.
5 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »Chicharron wrote: »Today in battlegrounds some of the opposite team killed us with snipe again and again, in fact we lost and very fast, my team were complaining and crying.
Is part of the game, you can not always win, if you're going to behave like a spoiled child every time you lose. why you do pvp? (i'm generalizing is not against OP)
Today is snipe. what will be tomorrow? nerf light attack?
Why do I PVP? I *gasp* PVP to play against other players. You frequently cannot counter Snipe, because Snipe spammers usually wait until you’re engaged in battle with another player to unload their single button spam on you. Dying in one second to someone you can’t even see is not PVP.
Reminds me of all the Mage's Wrath on my death recap when I am fighting a DK.
That would be a relevant comparison if Mage’s Wrath spam stunned you and took you down from 90% health to 0% health in one second.
Makes no difference, the play is the same, steal a kill from protected range while someone is fighting someone else.
Edited by TequilaFire on December 21, 2018 2:10PM3 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »Chicharron wrote: »Today in battlegrounds some of the opposite team killed us with snipe again and again, in fact we lost and very fast, my team were complaining and crying.
Is part of the game, you can not always win, if you're going to behave like a spoiled child every time you lose. why you do pvp? (i'm generalizing is not against OP)
Today is snipe. what will be tomorrow? nerf light attack?
Why do I PVP? I *gasp* PVP to play against other players. You frequently cannot counter Snipe, because Snipe spammers usually wait until you’re engaged in battle with another player to unload their single button spam on you. Dying in one second to someone you can’t even see is not PVP.
Reminds me of all the Mage's Wrath on my death recap when I am fighting a DK.
That would be a relevant comparison if Mage’s Wrath spam stunned you and took you down from 90% health to 0% health in one second.
Makes no difference, the play is the same, steal a kill from protected range while someone is fighting someone else.
It really isn’t. To die to Mage’s Wrath spam in a second without being able to counter, you need to be in execute range. Most of my Snipe deaths have occurred from full health or close to it.2 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »Chicharron wrote: »Today in battlegrounds some of the opposite team killed us with snipe again and again, in fact we lost and very fast, my team were complaining and crying.
Is part of the game, you can not always win, if you're going to behave like a spoiled child every time you lose. why you do pvp? (i'm generalizing is not against OP)
Today is snipe. what will be tomorrow? nerf light attack?
Why do I PVP? I *gasp* PVP to play against other players. You frequently cannot counter Snipe, because Snipe spammers usually wait until you’re engaged in battle with another player to unload their single button spam on you. Dying in one second to someone you can’t even see is not PVP.
Reminds me of all the Mage's Wrath on my death recap when I am fighting a DK.
That would be a relevant comparison if Mage’s Wrath spam stunned you and took you down from 90% health to 0% health in one second.
Makes no difference, the play is the same, steal a kill from protected range while someone is fighting someone else.
It really isn’t. To die to Mage’s Wrath spam in a second without being able to counter, you need to be in execute range. Most of my Snipe deaths have occurred from full health or close to it.
While fighting someone else it is easy to fall into execute range and not even know a sorc is there.
Also you don't die to just the snipe, there is snipe, light attack, poison injection in a bow rotation as well.
1 -
Jimmy✭✭✭✭✭Lot's of cry about Snipe lately.
I have a Snipe character, and it hits hard, but you know what? To be able to hit hard, I'm completely made out of glass. Survive the initial attack, like MOST good PvP'ers do, and I end up easily dying.
It's balanced. The gain you get in offense is offset by the losses in defense.7 -
Karmanorway✭✭✭✭✭
✭Karmanorway wrote: »Karmanorway wrote: »Just Block or dodge when u hear the snipe, then run to to Archer asap and take him down in 2 hits. Easy peazy, just like what u would do against Steel tornado spammer,
Cause you gonna hear the snipe while fighting someone melee.
And with 40+ meter range and 99% of snipers being NB he is gone before i even closed the gap by 10 Meter.
Good advise
ever heard about detect pots? Inner Light? Major expedition? Sry but if u cant handle snipers thats a l2p issue, and its not often they are 40 meters away .. its pretty rare actually
EDIT: I run full melee builds btw, and i dont struggle With snipers
Ye, come with the l2p issue and advice me to slot certain skills only to counter snipers.
Detect pots have *** uptime and are only usable if you dont have potion cooldown while the sniper can spam his cloak without any cooldown.
Inner light only viable on magicka builds.
Major expedition after nerfmire? Lel.
I dont know wich server/plattform you play on but on PC EU snipers hide on walls or behind their massive zerg completly safe and spamming snipe without any risk for them.
And how to spot a sniper if he instantly cloaks after the snipe hit you? Are you a god or something or just using miats?
Sniping is just coward playstyle. There is no risk for the reward you get. Where is the risk you take by landing 10k+ hits on Heavy Armor targets? Range 40+ meters, can insta cloak and move away in stealth or hide on wall or behind the zerg. If enemy gets near you, just dodge roll once and enjoy major expedition in cloak. Repeat.
I use expert Hunter to find them, which is a stam version of inner light. Im not defending their playstyle, i think they are cowards also. But i dont struggle finding them and kill them. When they see u running towards them they will cloack and run away, and when they do that they dont dmg u. Sry but i stand my point, if u struggle with them so badly its a L2P issue1 -
lazerlaz✭✭✭I'm a bow build nightblade and I actually would support this. Why? Because I would rather my opponent not get stunned on my opening snipe and rather have 2-3 Snipes land and THEN stun them with scatter shot. Would def make my combo do more damage if I can have that kind of control. Really don't need that initial stun to happen out the gate.
Be careful what you wish for kid.2 -
I more so have an issue with snipe being able to stack on itself on far range. No, I do not think that it's loud, it's silent which it is normal.
I'm only able to notice players casting snipe visually, not with audio, however, a nightblade casting snipe in invisibility is an issue for me as Magelight/hunter has a limited radius to detect and snipe is a ranged ability, not a cqc ability.
Most of the time though, if I do notice the projectile, rolling solves the issue, my counter measure would be to start crouching as I learned that I'm invisible while crouching, making me not be targeted unless aoes. These snipers would roll away from sight and cast cloak, making them stealthed again.
Also, I read about someone saying that cloak and snipe doesn't stun is... what? It does stun, any attack while stealthed will stun, you can't stun someone again by cloaking and hitting them again is probably what they were directed at.
The rotations that I had encountered in long range and done myself as a stamblade in BGS (Cyrodiil's just an additional snipe) 2 snipes and 1 poison injection and lotus fan to the melee stamblade rotation if the enemy is still alive. Other cases were hide and seek by cloak users into a guess of "encounter or forget about it" while crouching around the area.
Other struggles I had with these cloak users that they were able to roll away and still cast cloak even though I engaged on them with magelight, causing my attacks to be disjointed while the nightblade appears again. It's short but so is mage's fury's timer, my nightblade has a little bit more trouble as for some reason, I'm able to see "MISS" on my poison damage around the enemy when they roll and cloak, the solution was to spam spinning tornado, except that rolling through aoes (elemental blockade as well) were dodgeable for a brief moment as they rolled over it. Usually, they'd still die because they were forced into it or I die because they were aggressive glass cannons as well.
The L2P things I have are "Does the nightblade get forced out of stealth when casting snipe or only forced out of hiding after hitting?" So far, my experience in bgs against a Nightblade on the upper levels were "The nightblade's only revealed after the lethal arrow hits me while I don't see the projectile, forcing me to break free and shield spam to safety as I was in a large disadvantage or die as it turns out there were 2 snipes and a poison injection that bursted me down.
After several thoughts, I was wondering if it was Poison Injection that stunned me first then followed up by a snipe and another poison injection/la as felt it had a longer travel time than poison injection.0 -
TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lot's of cry about Snipe lately.
I have a Snipe character, and it hits hard, but you know what? To be able to hit hard, I'm completely made out of glass. Survive the initial attack, like MOST good PvP'ers do, and I end up easily dying.
It's balanced. The gain you get in offense is offset by the losses in defense.
That doesn't indicate snipe builds are balanced. It just means you're a bad Stamblade.
Iralia plays a literal all-in gank setup—at melee range—without any heal slotted apart from Siphoning ult, and has no trouble surviving and fighting outnumbered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b85S2uDebcw
If you can't at the very least escape on a Stamblade, which has one of the most survivable toolkits in the game, you haven't learned to use the class.Edited by TheYKcid on December 21, 2018 4:51PMPC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden3 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭
That video is not evidence of "surviving and fighting out numbered."Lot's of cry about Snipe lately.
I have a Snipe character, and it hits hard, but you know what? To be able to hit hard, I'm completely made out of glass. Survive the initial attack, like MOST good PvP'ers do, and I end up easily dying.
It's balanced. The gain you get in offense is offset by the losses in defense.
That doesn't indicate snipe builds are balanced. It just means you're a bad Stamblade.
Iralia plays a literal all-in gank setup—at melee range—without any heal slotted apart from Siphoning ult, and has no trouble surviving and fighting outnumbered.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b85S2uDebcw
If you can't at the very least escape on a Stamblade, which has one of the most survivable toolkits in the game, you haven't learned to use the class.
In the majority of the video the NB was in equal # fights. Even when outnumbered half of the time no one even chased. It begins with a edited clip showing a kill and then as soon as the chase began it cut from that clip to something else.
There was two maybe three real escapes, I could get as many escapes in an hour of play without cloak.
Your argument might be sound but the video doesn't actually support it.
Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..1 -
Jimmy_The_Fixer✭✭✭✭✭The issue is the complete package of opening at range from stealth with huge damage and re-entering stealth in the event of a failed gank.
Most people don’t dislike melee gankers because they recognize that a melee gank is a high-risk high-reward playstyle where opening puts you in real danger of getting countered and killed. Meanwhile sniping offers a style of gameplay where success is as easy as pressing one button and a failed gank presents almost no danger to yourself.4 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »The issue is the complete package of opening at range from stealth with huge damage and re-entering stealth in the event of a failed gank.
Most people don’t dislike melee gankers because they recognize that a melee gank is a high-risk high-reward playstyle where opening puts you in real danger of getting countered and killed. Meanwhile sniping offers a style of gameplay where success is as easy as pressing one button and a failed gank presents almost no danger to yourself.
This. It's not fun to be on the receiving end of any gank, but a melee ganker has a very balance high risk/high reward challenge.
41m ganks and having massive damage + defile + cc while standing somewhere safe or behind a stack of friendlies isn't balanced, it's low risk/high reward.
In terms of battlefield positioning and having archers provide ranged support, I think Volley would be a much more appropriate skill for that. It's just not that good for that at the moment.1 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »The issue is the complete package of opening at range from stealth with huge damage and re-entering stealth in the event of a failed gank.
Most people don’t dislike melee gankers because they recognize that a melee gank is a high-risk high-reward playstyle where opening puts you in real danger of getting countered and killed. Meanwhile sniping offers a style of gameplay where success is as easy as pressing one button and a failed gank presents almost no danger to yourself.
This. It's not fun to be on the receiving end of any gank, but a melee ganker has a very balance high risk/high reward challenge.
41m ganks and having massive damage + defile + cc while standing somewhere safe or behind a stack of friendlies isn't balanced, it's low risk/high reward.
In terms of battlefield positioning and having archers provide ranged support, I think Volley would be a much more appropriate skill for that. It's just not that good for that at the moment.
Precisely. There’s no risk involved in standing on a safe vantage point (be it a keep wall or a BG spawn point) and spamming cloak + snipe ad infinitum. Melee gankers can be irritating (especially if they travel in packs), but at least you stand a chance of retaliating if you survive the initial gank attempt.
2 -
Aliyavana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭dwemer_paleologist wrote: »Lol at the people implying OP needs to L2P. @Aliyavana is one of the better stamsorcs within the top MMR tier of PCNA BGs, all the more impressive because he excels without running any cheese in his builds.
I guarantee he'd tear apart any of the naysayers here in a one-on-one. Big surprise they need to fanatically defend their max-range-desynced-dizzying-swing-with-defile-from-stealth playstyle to continue zerging down players like him.
Edit: (spelling)
if that was true, then he has zero reason to make and spam nerf threads and nerf requests "daily"
Daily is an overexageration. I last asked for sloads to be nerfed and noticed many of the people here defending snipe also defended sloads back then too.Edited by Aliyavana on December 21, 2018 7:45PM4 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭My lv 10 sniper in BG. Pure snipe spam. Literally every match ends like that.
Edited by Juhasow on December 21, 2018 8:12PM2
