Nords and the upcoming racial passive overhaul

Scallan · December 2018

Seeing how the new racial passive update will be hitting soon next year I was wondering what changes you guys would like to see done with the Nords. I love the race, but they are pretty lackluster when it comes to passive power compared to many of the other races. ZOS talked about changing the racial passives to be more in-line with one another but also retain the flavor of the race.

If they decide to go down branching routes or include both stamina and magicka passives I really hope they do something regarding frost magic. Maybe increase spell damage for frost magic abilities or something of that nature. What would you guys like to see done with Nords?

WrathOfInnos · December 2018

It would take a lot to make frost nord a viable option for PVE DPS. I’d guess something like 15% additional frost damage. I doubt this will happen because frost builds are already very powerful in PVP.

ESO_Nightingale · December 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It would take a lot to make frost nord a viable option for PVE DPS. I’d guess something like 15% additional frost damage. I doubt this will happen because frost builds are already very powerful in PVP.

As soon as expedition comes back, they wont be as strong.

Dr3sden · December 2018

Frost damage would be fun but goes away from ethos.

ESO_Nightingale · December 2018

Dr3sden wrote: »

Frost damage would be fun but goes away from ethos.

nords have had frost damage skills in the past and lore wise they have used it several times, its not impossible. in oblivion nord has a skill/daily power that does frost damage.

Raudgrani · December 2018

They should have morphs of racial passives, if anything. I really don't feel like re-making all my characters because ZOS thinks I should play in some special way. Maybe add one more passive for all, which can be a game changer, sort of.

I still think they should be a bit careful about twisting this too much. I dunno. I'm pretty pleased with the racial passives.

Scallan · December 2018

Raudgrani wrote: »

They should have morphs of racial passives, if anything. I really don't feel like re-making all my characters because ZOS thinks I should play in some special way. Maybe add one more passive for all, which can be a game changer, sort of.

I still think they should be a bit careful about twisting this too much. I dunno. I'm pretty pleased with the racial passives.

While I semi-agree with you (I absolutely adore the Bosmer passives, couldn't be more perfect for my PVP build) I also recognize that not all racial passives are up to par. The Nord passives basically shoehorn the race into being basically just for tanks and I can understand why ZOS wants every race to be viable for different styles of play.

I do think giving the Nords some type of frost damage passive would certainly help on the magicka front.

karekiz · December 2018

Nords - When using a drink buff gain additional 1000 hps/mana/stamina - 50 mana/hp/stamina regen.

technohic · December 2018

Wish the health recovery passive was a flat value so that it amounts to something other than if you were stacking health recovery already.

Wish the damage reduction was calculated differently so that you actually get the full benefit rather than a percent of a percent.

Change drink duration increase to potency increase.

Minno · December 2018

I still don't think it's going to be a passive change. I think it's going to be racial ability+ultimate that gives you the missing role or extra stats that let you stat swap to get the missing numbers.

Like if nords don't make great tanks, I can see them getting a increase to survivability stats they currently have but then getting an ultimate that gives them extra dmg/tankiness.

The active "once a day" abilities that are Staples in elder scrolls like are missing and I can't foresee ZOS missing this opportunity to adding them back in for the extra chapter base game release.

karekiz · December 2018

Minno wrote: »

I still don't think it's going to be a passive change. I think it's going to be racial ability+ultimate that gives you the missing role or extra stats that let you stat swap to get the missing numbers.

Like if nords don't make great tanks, I can see them getting a increase to survivability stats they currently have but then getting an ultimate that gives them extra dmg/tankiness.

The active "once a day" abilities that are Staples in elder scrolls like are missing and I can't foresee ZOS missing this opportunity to adding them back in for the extra chapter base game release.

Issue with ultimates is that unless its greater than Warhorn/class for example <for each role too> or an entirely additional slot I doubt it would be used.

Nord Mag DPS sorcs for example would sacrifice the atro or destro ult. Both of which are very nice.
Nord <DK> tanks would sac either survival ult buff or warhorn.

Typically the point where racials probably make a difference you wouldn't run non warhorn <though I do not know 100% as I am not a high end raider>.

MattT1988 · December 2018

Doesn’t bother me, as long as they’re still good tanks.

ESO_Nightingale · December 2018

Giving nords a frost damage passive also boosts the effectiveness of them as magicka tanks since frost "is for tanking"

JazzyNova · December 2018

I think it sounds like a great idea for nords to have an increased frost damage passive, it makes sense from a lore perspective & they could use some changes in update 21 related to ice and frost.

macsmooth · December 2018

I have just posted this on the update thread but it’s relevant to this thread too as I examples Nords

“
To be honest the racial passives should be something like

Select one off
Tier 1 mag stam or health increase 10%
Tier 2 mag stam or health regen 10%
Tier 3 dd tank or healer focus buff but unique to that race

But what they should be doing is changing the main racial passives for example

Nord, 2 handed experience needs to be changed to reduce cost and increase damage of 2 handed skills by like 3%

As it stands now once you get 2 handed to level 50 this passive does nothing

Same goes for the other races

Dark elf, dual wield should be reduce cost and damage increase of dual wield skills

Imperial, s&b
High elf, destruction staff
So on

It’s up for debate on the races that don’t have skill lines in their passives but argonians swimming passive is a little useless once you have a mount

But you will notice I said increase to skills only in the skill lines, that way you don’t get dark elf magblade dual wielding getting a damage increase

Just my take on things and I honestly haven’t read the last 14 pages of this thread to see if anyone else has suggested this

But to be honest as well I like the imperial stats as they are just the s&b needs to be more of an active passive
“

I like the Nords damage reduction passive and I like their frost immunity thought but yes could be expanded on and I even like the idea about their drink passive should boost stats or at least their toughness

cbritomiranda · December 2018

since development, I believe nords and orcs were thought of as classes for tanks. the problem arose when they realized that nobody was playing argonian, and gave the buff in their passive, and now they have become not only a top tier healers (your role), but also the undisputed top tier race for tanks.
there are still people playing orcs, after all there are still builds like StamSorc for them, but nords were outplayed. IDK what they will do, but I think a buff in the Rugged passive works fine.
I think the zenimax will not try a heavy change in the race, and take the risk of a new imbalance. If they promise fireworks, expect a Bang snaps

Maryal · December 2018

Scallan wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

They should have morphs of racial passives, if anything. I really don't feel like re-making all my characters because ZOS thinks I should play in some special way. Maybe add one more passive for all, which can be a game changer, sort of.

I still think they should be a bit careful about twisting this too much. I dunno. I'm pretty pleased with the racial passives.

While I semi-agree with you (I absolutely adore the Bosmer passives, couldn't be more perfect for my PVP build) I also recognize that not all racial passives are up to par. The Nord passives basically shoehorn the race into being basically just for tanks and I can understand why ZOS wants every race to be viable for different styles of play.

I do think giving the Nords some type of frost damage passive would certainly help on the magicka front.

I disagree that a Nord's racial passives 'shoehorn' them as a tank.

Racial Passives - How much do we get?
When looking at racial passives, it's normal to judge them by 'how much we get' (how much max magica, max stamina, magica recovery, stamina recovery, etc).

Racial Passives - What do they free up?
It's not always about how much our racial passives gives us, but instead, what they free up. Suppose we want to make our Nord a damage dealer. Lets look at how their racial passives can benefit this role:

Being tanky helps with resource management. Stamina builds generally heal themselves using stamina-based abilities or skills. Because Nords are so inherently tanky, they won't need to heal themselves as often (good for resource management).
A Nord will spend fewer GCDs to self-heal which means more GCDs to devote to dd (increases dps).
Nords can be fairly tanky in medium armor (good for those who want to take advantage of medium armor passives).
With a decreased need for tri-buff foods/drinks, Nords can focus on max-stat food/drink buffs (instead of Dubious Camoran Throne, Nords can go with Lava Foot Soup-And-Saltrice instead (4575 max stamina/457 stam recovery)).

medium armor passives:

increased crit, increased damage, increased stam recovery, reduced cost of stam abilities, reduced cost of sneak, reduced detection radius, increased movement speed while sprinting, reduced stamina cost for roll dodge.

Nord passives:

Increases experience gain with the Two-Handed Skill line by 15%
Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes.
Increases Max Stamina by 6% and Health Recovery by 20%.
Increases Max Health by 9% and Cold Resistance by 2079.
Increases damage reduction by 6%.

Throw in some customized jewelry, a monster set, the right mundus stone, the right CP allocation (if using CP), and you have a lot of possibilities.

ZeroXFF · December 2018

Maryal wrote: »

Scallan wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

They should have morphs of racial passives, if anything. I really don't feel like re-making all my characters because ZOS thinks I should play in some special way. Maybe add one more passive for all, which can be a game changer, sort of.

I still think they should be a bit careful about twisting this too much. I dunno. I'm pretty pleased with the racial passives.

While I semi-agree with you (I absolutely adore the Bosmer passives, couldn't be more perfect for my PVP build) I also recognize that not all racial passives are up to par. The Nord passives basically shoehorn the race into being basically just for tanks and I can understand why ZOS wants every race to be viable for different styles of play.

I do think giving the Nords some type of frost damage passive would certainly help on the magicka front.

I disagree that a Nord's racial passives 'shoehorn' them as a tank.

Racial Passives - How much do we get?
When looking at racial passives, it's normal to judge them by 'how much we get' (how much max magica, max stamina, magica recovery, stamina recovery, etc).

Racial Passives - What do they free up?
It's not always about how much our racial passives gives us, but instead, what they free up. Suppose we want to make our Nord a damage dealer. Lets look at how their racial passives can benefit this role:
Being tanky helps with resource management. Stamina builds generally heal themselves using stamina-based abilities or skills. Because Nords are so inherently tanky, they won't need to heal themselves as often (good for resource management).

A Nord will spend fewer GCDs to self-heal which means more GCDs to devote to dd (increases dps).

Nords can be fairly tanky in medium armor (good for those who want to take advantage of medium armor passives).

With a decreased need for tri-buff foods/drinks, Nords can focus on max-stat food/drink buffs (instead of Dubious Camoran Throne, Nords can go with Lava Foot Soup-And-Saltrice instead (4575 max stamina/457 stam recovery)).

medium armor passives:
increased crit, increased damage, increased stam recovery, reduced cost of stam abilities, reduced cost of sneak, reduced detection radius, increased movement speed while sprinting, reduced stamina cost for roll dodge.

Nord passives:

Increases experience gain with the Two-Handed Skill line by 15%

Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes.

Increases Max Stamina by 6% and Health Recovery by 20%.

Increases Max Health by 9% and Cold Resistance by 2079.

Increases damage reduction by 6%.

Throw in some customized jewelry, a monster set, the right mundus stone, the right CP allocation (if using CP), and you have a lot of possibilities.

For it to work as you describe, the rugged passive would have to be at least 15% and not 6%.

katorga · December 2018

Pretty simple. Some races are going to get wrecked next patch in order to generate race change sales. Whatever races are most prevelent will get “adjusted”.

My guess is Argonian, Altmer, Orc, Redguard, Dunmer, will certainly be hit.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · December 2018

Maryal wrote: »

Scallan wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

They should have morphs of racial passives, if anything. I really don't feel like re-making all my characters because ZOS thinks I should play in some special way. Maybe add one more passive for all, which can be a game changer, sort of.

I still think they should be a bit careful about twisting this too much. I dunno. I'm pretty pleased with the racial passives.

While I semi-agree with you (I absolutely adore the Bosmer passives, couldn't be more perfect for my PVP build) I also recognize that not all racial passives are up to par. The Nord passives basically shoehorn the race into being basically just for tanks and I can understand why ZOS wants every race to be viable for different styles of play.

I do think giving the Nords some type of frost damage passive would certainly help on the magicka front.

I disagree that a Nord's racial passives 'shoehorn' them as a tank.

Racial Passives - How much do we get?
When looking at racial passives, it's normal to judge them by 'how much we get' (how much max magica, max stamina, magica recovery, stamina recovery, etc).

Racial Passives - What do they free up?
It's not always about how much our racial passives gives us, but instead, what they free up. Suppose we want to make our Nord a damage dealer. Lets look at how their racial passives can benefit this role:
Being tanky helps with resource management. Stamina builds generally heal themselves using stamina-based abilities or skills. Because Nords are so inherently tanky, they won't need to heal themselves as often (good for resource management).

A Nord will spend fewer GCDs to self-heal which means more GCDs to devote to dd (increases dps).

Nords can be fairly tanky in medium armor (good for those who want to take advantage of medium armor passives).

With a decreased need for tri-buff foods/drinks, Nords can focus on max-stat food/drink buffs (instead of Dubious Camoran Throne, Nords can go with Lava Foot Soup-And-Saltrice instead (4575 max stamina/457 stam recovery)).

medium armor passives:
increased crit, increased damage, increased stam recovery, reduced cost of stam abilities, reduced cost of sneak, reduced detection radius, increased movement speed while sprinting, reduced stamina cost for roll dodge.

Nord passives:

Increases experience gain with the Two-Handed Skill line by 15%

Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes.

Increases Max Stamina by 6% and Health Recovery by 20%.

Increases Max Health by 9% and Cold Resistance by 2079.

Increases damage reduction by 6%.

Throw in some customized jewelry, a monster set, the right mundus stone, the right CP allocation (if using CP), and you have a lot of possibilities.

So this reasoning is pretty valid for the average level of play, but when you get into min-maxing territory, the argument falls apart. In a trial environment with full possible group buffs going, you technically don't NEED more than like one glyph of bonus health, even on a race without health bonuses.

The same thing can be said for sustain and having good uptime on synergies / shards. So in that regard, Nord is very sub-optimal. That being said, this also assumes you're able to get by with the bare-minimum amount of health and resists, which is why I think a lot of min-max arguments are BS anyways.

So, because it is technically possible to be "adequately survivable" without all of these bonuses, min-maxers will keep saying races like nord suck. For the average player, who maybe doesn't live in trial land or well-coordinated 4-man land? Very useful for sure, and they probably help to keep them alive. It really just depends on how you look at things and how you yourself are playing the game.

Since this is the case, it really just makes more sense to have morph options for racial passives. I don't think it would be super difficult to implement, since ability morphs already come with plenty of passives. The framework must be there.

Masel · December 2018

katorga wrote: »

Pretty simple. Some races are going to get wrecked next patch in order to generate race change sales. Whatever races are most prevelent will get “adjusted”.

My guess is Argonian, Altmer, Orc, Redguard, Dunmer, will certainly be hit.

Thats not how it works, at least we will make sure it won't be.

dodgehopper_ESO · December 2018

technohic wrote: »

Wish the health recovery passive was a flat value so that it amounts to something other than if you were stacking health recovery already.

Wish the damage reduction was calculated differently so that you actually get the full benefit rather than a percent of a percent.

Change drink duration increase to potency increase.

This would be nice as well when you consider that everyone in the game is either a vampire or a werewolf and Vampire severely hampers regeneration. By the way did I mention that I hate the way Vampires were implemented in this game? They are an abomination and I wish we could cure or kill them all.

NBrookus · December 2018

Immunity to frost roots and snares.

dodgehopper_ESO · December 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Scallan wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

They should have morphs of racial passives, if anything. I really don't feel like re-making all my characters because ZOS thinks I should play in some special way. Maybe add one more passive for all, which can be a game changer, sort of.

I still think they should be a bit careful about twisting this too much. I dunno. I'm pretty pleased with the racial passives.

While I semi-agree with you (I absolutely adore the Bosmer passives, couldn't be more perfect for my PVP build) I also recognize that not all racial passives are up to par. The Nord passives basically shoehorn the race into being basically just for tanks and I can understand why ZOS wants every race to be viable for different styles of play.

I do think giving the Nords some type of frost damage passive would certainly help on the magicka front.

I disagree that a Nord's racial passives 'shoehorn' them as a tank.

Racial Passives - How much do we get?
When looking at racial passives, it's normal to judge them by 'how much we get' (how much max magica, max stamina, magica recovery, stamina recovery, etc).

Racial Passives - What do they free up?
It's not always about how much our racial passives gives us, but instead, what they free up. Suppose we want to make our Nord a damage dealer. Lets look at how their racial passives can benefit this role:
Being tanky helps with resource management. Stamina builds generally heal themselves using stamina-based abilities or skills. Because Nords are so inherently tanky, they won't need to heal themselves as often (good for resource management).

A Nord will spend fewer GCDs to self-heal which means more GCDs to devote to dd (increases dps).

Nords can be fairly tanky in medium armor (good for those who want to take advantage of medium armor passives).

With a decreased need for tri-buff foods/drinks, Nords can focus on max-stat food/drink buffs (instead of Dubious Camoran Throne, Nords can go with Lava Foot Soup-And-Saltrice instead (4575 max stamina/457 stam recovery)).

medium armor passives:
increased crit, increased damage, increased stam recovery, reduced cost of stam abilities, reduced cost of sneak, reduced detection radius, increased movement speed while sprinting, reduced stamina cost for roll dodge.

Nord passives:

Increases experience gain with the Two-Handed Skill line by 15%

Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes.

Increases Max Stamina by 6% and Health Recovery by 20%.

Increases Max Health by 9% and Cold Resistance by 2079.

Increases damage reduction by 6%.

Throw in some customized jewelry, a monster set, the right mundus stone, the right CP allocation (if using CP), and you have a lot of possibilities.

For it to work as you describe, the rugged passive would have to be at least 15% and not 6%.

I agree. They really need to make racial bonuses a static number and not a percentage boost. This is a huge problem with a lot of the game balance that they've never paid attention to and yet it is obvious and people have been stating this for years.

technohic · December 2018

NBrookus wrote: »

Immunity to frost roots and snares.

You kid; yet wood elf and argonian disease resistant make them resist defile caused by that.

Dirty_Digs · December 2018

Bump up that frost resistance to 50%, if only to *** off a few wardens. Why not? I'm serious, this game could use a few more hard counters. Of course this would mean a whole slew of adjustments but aren't we all a little tired of 10% buffs and debuffs in a few certain areas that really amount to nothing?

Frost damage suffers from stat overkill making roots/snares/stuns and the like just that much less effective. Adding to the damage would make it just a different color than fire damage. The issues with frost run deep in the core mechanics of the game. All that being said, I have ran into several players in non-cp pvp that use frost rather effectively due to less stat overkill.

ESO_Nightingale · December 2018

Dirty_Digs wrote: »

Bump up that frost resistance to 50%, if only to *** off a few wardens. Why not? I'm serious, this game could use a few more hard counters. Of course this would mean a whole slew of adjustments but aren't we all a little tired of 10% buffs and debuffs in a few certain areas that really amount to nothing?

Frost damage suffers from stat overkill making roots/snares/stuns and the like just that much less effective. Adding to the damage would make it just a different color than fire damage. The issues with frost run deep in the core mechanics of the game. All that being said, I have ran into several players in non-cp pvp that use frost rather effectively due to less stat overkill.

Honestly I think that the major expedition nuke nerfs were the biggest problem here, frost wardens are only reaping the rewards now because no-one can move fast anymore. I also think that snares and immobilisations will receive nerfs in the near future anyway due to the intense complaining. your hard counters will come with more ways to counter immobilisations and snares. and then frost will be near useless. where it can then be buffed to become a proper defensive dps element.

katorga · December 2018

Masel wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Pretty simple. Some races are going to get wrecked next patch in order to generate race change sales. Whatever races are most prevalent will get “adjusted”.

My guess is Argonian, Altmer, Orc, Redguard, Dunmer, will certainly be hit.

Thats not how it works, at least we will make sure it won't be.

We'll see. Cynicism is usually based on experience. ZOS's nerf behavior is practically a meme at this point. With my luck, in trying to improve the much maligned Nord, they will probably mess up the one reason I find the race useful.

NBrookus · December 2018

Dirty_Digs wrote: »

Bump up that frost resistance to 50%, if only to *** off a few wardens. Why not? I'm serious, this game could use a few more hard counters. Of course this would mean a whole slew of adjustments but aren't we all a little tired of 10% buffs and debuffs in a few certain areas that really amount to nothing?

True trinity design and rock-paper-scissors isn't really compatible in a game where every class is supposed to be able to heal, tank and dps. There are some hard counter matchups in the game, but not many.

ESO_Nightingale · December 2018

NBrookus wrote: »

Dirty_Digs wrote: »

Bump up that frost resistance to 50%, if only to *** off a few wardens. Why not? I'm serious, this game could use a few more hard counters. Of course this would mean a whole slew of adjustments but aren't we all a little tired of 10% buffs and debuffs in a few certain areas that really amount to nothing?

True trinity design and rock-paper-scissors isn't really compatible in a game where every class is supposed to be able to heal, tank and dps. There are some hard counter matchups in the game, but not many.

Yeah hard counters are really bad. look at overwatch, there are so many hard counters now that people are quitting en masse.

ESO_Nightingale · December 2018

Masel wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Pretty simple. Some races are going to get wrecked next patch in order to generate race change sales. Whatever races are most prevelent will get “adjusted”.

My guess is Argonian, Altmer, Orc, Redguard, Dunmer, will certainly be hit.

Thats not how it works, at least we will make sure it won't be.

my man!