myskyrim26 wrote: »

@EphemeraCrawford
Nobody is forcing you to take part in any activities that you don't like.

This.

There's all sorts of stuff in this game (and many others) that I "can't get" because you have to do things I don't like/don't want to/etc.

Like there isn't a bribe they've come up with yet, for me to join/follow/like them on Facebook or Twitter or Twitch.
And all those things stuck behind PvP... well, never getting those.
Or Hardmode Trial rewards.
Or...

There's lots of things that, to get them, you "are forced" to do something you won't or can't do.



edit: and actually, I'm sure someone out there has come up with a statistical analysis of how many gems you get per X number of crates in a single season. Since as you get more crates (and obtain all the "uncommon" rewards), you get more dupes & more gems. So there's likely a formula somewhere that says "oh, you want X gems? Buy Y crates, +/- 5, in a single season". So it's a lot less "gambling" than going for that single rare drop.

Kind of like, with Skeeball on the boardwalk, I know about how many tickets I get with every game (it varies, sometimes you get bad or good throws, no matter how practiced you are), and could figure out how many $ it would cost me to get a redemption prize that costs 400 tickets.

Runs wrote: »

supaskrub wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Honestly I don’t care either way. This is an 18+ game, why the hell are children playing it? Why the hell are you complaining about how people spend their money op? It’s not Pay 2 Win, it’s just cosmetics your getting, jeez.

Anyways I’m just waiting for those Storm Atro Crates.

Maybe laws per country are different regarding minimum player ages, here in the UK the game has a minimum advised player age of 13 (you have to accept that you are aged 13 or over under ZOS toc when you first install the game/create a new account).

The 18+ that you see on the packing and marketing is nothing more than companies acting advisory as to its contents after outside and governmental pressure in the past, more of a practice of self regulation rather than being legally imposed, it’s certainly not binding in this country as the game can be bought by an adult and gifted to a child.

If loot crates are getting looked into though with concern on exposure to children, then ZOS may well need to revise that minimum age of 13 tick box when installing the game.

TOS specifically states 18+ it has since at least 2015

Il highlight the interesting bits for you:

By using any ZeniMax Services, You affirm that (i) You are at least 18 years of age (or have reached the age of majority if that is not 18 years of age where You live) OR You have reviewed these Terms of Service with Your parent or guardian and he or she assents to these Terms of Service on Your behalf and takes full responsibility for Your compliance with them (You or Your parent or guardian assenting: "You" or "Your") AND (ii) You are a legal resident of a country where Your access to and use of the applicable Services are permitted. You represent that You are fully able and competent to enter into the terms, conditions, and representations set forth in these Terms of Service, and You agree to abide by and comply with them.

Nothing in there that prohibits a child from playing the game as the onus is passed on to a responsible adult. As I said above the 18+ on the packaging does not legally dictate the age of the person that can play the game. I could as a ‘responsible adult’ buy it for a 13 year old who is under my care and by doing that it is deemed “Implied Consent” (can have a different meaning outside of the USA) from me for the 13 year old to play the game, effectively making that part of the ToS irrelevant.

If a game locks skills or progression behind crates/loot boxes, THAT is shady practices and I would never touch a game that does something as such.

But for cosmetic things such as costumes, mounts or pets? They can do whatever they want as it's only a 'want' on the players part, not a 'need'.

MilwaukeeScott wrote: »

EphemeraCrawford wrote: »

I'm not debating whether or not the items are optional, I'm pointing out the methods for obtaining in-game currency are questionable.

Maybe you should find a game to play that is NOT intended for adults.

"Adult" does not equal questionable monetization methods. Rethink this one

A always gambled in this game. I gambled for everything I got. And then I lost it all

supaskrub wrote: »

Runs wrote: »

supaskrub wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Honestly I don’t care either way. This is an 18+ game, why the hell are children playing it? Why the hell are you complaining about how people spend their money op? It’s not Pay 2 Win, it’s just cosmetics your getting, jeez.

Anyways I’m just waiting for those Storm Atro Crates.

Maybe laws per country are different regarding minimum player ages, here in the UK the game has a minimum advised player age of 13 (you have to accept that you are aged 13 or over under ZOS toc when you first install the game/create a new account).

The 18+ that you see on the packing and marketing is nothing more than companies acting advisory as to its contents after outside and governmental pressure in the past, more of a practice of self regulation rather than being legally imposed, it’s certainly not binding in this country as the game can be bought by an adult and gifted to a child.

If loot crates are getting looked into though with concern on exposure to children, then ZOS may well need to revise that minimum age of 13 tick box when installing the game.

TOS specifically states 18+ it has since at least 2015

Il highlight the interesting bits for you:

By using any ZeniMax Services, You affirm that (i) You are at least 18 years of age (or have reached the age of majority if that is not 18 years of age where You live) OR You have reviewed these Terms of Service with Your parent or guardian and he or she assents to these Terms of Service on Your behalf and takes full responsibility for Your compliance with them (You or Your parent or guardian assenting: "You" or "Your") AND (ii) You are a legal resident of a country where Your access to and use of the applicable Services are permitted. You represent that You are fully able and competent to enter into the terms, conditions, and representations set forth in these Terms of Service, and You agree to abide by and comply with them.

Nothing in there that prevents a child from playing the game. As I said above the 18+ on the packaging does not legally dictate the age of the person that can play the game, I could buy it for a 13 year old who I am responsible for and by doing that it is implied consent (can have a different meaning outside of the USA) from me for the 13 year old to play the game.

Let's be honest here. A person can buy a game and not read the ToS, it can be an underage person or an older age person it can be a person that got it for Christmas or a birthday or because they saw it in a store and didn't care. Terms of Services, EULA, etc they often don't stand up in court either. Simple reality is that this is a form of gambling but the US laws worship corporations and other countries are more likely to try to protect consumers and such. If anything changes it will be because of the EU or other such things and probably only in the EU and other such places.

Young children or adults can be susceptible to gambling and this game encourages it as do all the others.

lordrichter wrote: »

People keep saying that they are optional. It is true that any individual has the option to buy, or not buy, them. However, they are not optional. They are, in fact, required. It is best to never forget that.

They are not required. You do not have to buy them in order to play or progress in the game. There is no content that is locked away from you unless you buy them.

As long as people volunteer to buy ESO Plus and Crowns in sufficient amounts, ZOS has no reason to act on this. While they will always be "optional", all that is necessary to meet the requirements is that enough people volunteer. ZOS will continue to modify Crown Crates and ESO Plus to ensure that those who do not volunteer will have less of an experience here than those who do. They have been actively doing this, and it seems to be working. ZOS requires volunteers. Many volunteers.

Yes, ZOS "requires" that the game makes money, or it will be shut down. That does not equal "crates crates are required to play".

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Yes, ZOS "requires" that the game makes money, or it will be shut down. That does not equal "crates crates are required to play".

No, but it is required that people buy crates.

Most everyone posting here is misunderstanding OP, whether on purpose or on accident, or simple lack of reading comprehension.

The OP isn't complaining about not being able to afford the Sabre mount. They aren't complaining that it's too much, or that the gamble crates are unreliable and rarely give you good stuff. They're saying that it's shady that the only way to be able to buy it is via currency that can ONLY be obtained by those crates, and it's a valid point.

Effectively, people are saying 'lol if you don't want to spend potentially hundreds of dollars on crown crates to get the Gems you need then oh well sucks to be you you don't need it it's only cosmetic', which is a pretty narrow-minded way of looking at it. If the intent behind this mount was to encourage people to spend Gems they might have gathered over the months, then it would cost less, a price that would make more sense for people who might have a collection of leftover Gems from previous seasons. But the fact that it costs SIX HUNDRED Gems, which can ONLY be obtained from gamble crates...

You cannot deny this reeks of greed, even if that's not the actual intention. Your average person isn't going to just happen to have anywhere close to 600 Gems lying around, and a lot of people who would otherwise buy this thing if it were cheaper either refuse to dump a whole bunch of money on crates that might not even get them close to the amount they need, or simply don't have the disposable income to try.

EphemeraCrawford wrote: »

"Adult" does not equal questionable monetization methods. Rethink this one

Ok.

You probably shouldn't play games meant for mature players. Those of us with at least a bit of self control.

MilwaukeeScott wrote: »

EphemeraCrawford wrote: »

"Adult" does not equal questionable monetization methods. Rethink this one

Ok.

You probably shouldn't play games meant for mature players. Those of us with at least a bit of self control.

This is a nonsensical argument. It in no way should be used to excuse predatory business tactics. Disguising sales behind two or more layers of artificial currency (a demonstrated psychological manipulation technique well known to the gambling industry) is very clearly deceptive and predatory. So, yeah, I have self control, I don't buy the crates. That doesn't mean I'm happy with these unethical business practices being in a game I play and nor should I be. In fact, I'm quite surprised that anyone could be defensing something so blatantly manipulative. Is this some sort of Stockholm syndrome or a broken moral compass?

For the people not getting it. It's not about you being an 'adult' or people having 'self control', it's about ZOS inserting increasingly deceptive and psychologically manipulative tactics within the game.

https://www.pcgamer.com/behind-the-addictive-psychology-and-seductive-art-of-loot-boxes/

Why do loot boxes provide such a dark compulsion? Psychologists call the principle by which they work on the human mind 'variable rate reinforcement.' "The player is basically working for reward by making a series of responses, but the rewards are delivered unpredictably," says Dr Luke Clark, director at the Center for Gambling Research at the University of British Columbia. "We know that the dopamine system, which is targeted by drugs of abuse, is also very interested in unpredictable rewards. Dopamine cells are most active when there is maximum uncertainty, and the dopamine system responds more to an uncertain reward than the same reward delivered on a predictable basis."

What's more, the effect of variable rate reinforcement is very persistent. Psychologist B.F. Skinner conducted trials during the early 1930s in which he conditioned animals to respond to certain stimuli in closed chambers that became known as Skinner Boxes, and showed that even when the rewards were removed, the subject would continue responding for sometimes hundreds of trials, trying to recreate the circumstances in which it got its reward before.

"Modern video games then amplify this idea by having many overlapping variable ratio schedules," says Clark. "You're trying to level up, advance your avatar, get rare add-ons, build up game currency, all at the same time. What this means is that there is a regular trickle of some kind of reinforcement."

This design closely mirrors the near-misses in many forms of gambling, from horse racing to roulette. As psychologist Luke Clark has said, "A moderate frequency of near-misses encourages prolonged gambling, even in student volunteers who do not gamble on a regular basis. Problem gamblers often interpret near-misses as evidence that they are mastering the game and that a win is on the way."

I dunno about anyone else but the more and more nickel and diming they do every quarter, the less I'm spending. I use to buy 1-2 of those big crate packs each season and then some random stuff off the store and maybe another 15 crate pack towards the end of its run. I haven't spent crap in a while now outside of my sub. Their practices just pushed me in the opposite direction.

To each their own yo.