What is ZOS' vision for melee skills on magicka nightblade?

casparian · October 2018

Concealed Weapon and Lotus Fan used to fit into a non-meta but still powerful class archetype in PVP: melee mageblade. Even Sap Essence once had a PVP application, back when PVP sap tanks were a thing (when Siphoning Attacks returned resources on direct damage). Melee mageblade functioned by being elusive and hard to pin down (Shade, Cloak), biding its time until it could unleash a devastating burst combo (ult + Merciless).

Nowadays that archetype exists in name only. Melee mageblade has to deal with the following direct and indirect nerfs to its playstyle:

not having staff light attacks (this used to not matter so much, but since Summerset not using a staff means losing an enormous amount of damage)
losing its mobility tools (melee mageblade benefited strongly from Swift and Forward Momentum, and the Grace passive doesn't come close to making up for those nerfs)
losing its burst heal (Healing Ward)
Shade being periodically unreliable (not sure if the new porting issues are a bug or a ninja nerf)
Merciless being changed to be nearly as hard to land in melee as at range

Together, those changes have amounted to a massive adjustment to the viability of melee mageblade as an open world PVP spec, either solo or in a small group. (It was never a large group spec; large group mageblades are primarily bombers.) Melee mageblade nowadays is slow and struggles with mobility, has clunky burst damage, has poor healing, and struggles to do sufficient damage unless the opponent just doesn't CC break.

Of course, non-ranged mageblade is a viable archetype still: that archetype uses heavy armor, runs Swallow Soul as its spammable, and survives by layering HOTs. It's nothing like what used to be called "melee mageblade". And of course, Concealed Weapon and Lotus Fan both still have uses, primarily to enable bombers to get into the middle of an enemy group quickly. But that's not what the old melee mageblade playstyle was, either.

Given all this, I'm curious what Concealed Weapon and Lotus Fan are supposed to be for, in ZOS' eyes. Are they just mobility tools for bombers? Are they primarily intended as QOL abilities for solo PVE? If ZOS doesn't want bursty, highly mobile, dual wield mageblade to be an open world playstyle anymore, what does they want us to do with those skills?

The only non-bomber spec I'm aware of that makes use of one or both of these skills nowadays is the Caluurion's/Zaan ganker. Is proc set ganking ZOS' intended use for these skills? Is that really their vision? If so, that says a lot about the state of this game's design team.

kojou · October 2018

I think the short answer is they don't put a lot of thought into it. They just make the tools and it is up to us to come up with the build that uses them.

Occasionally they will try to make unused skills more interesting, but that's it.

At least that is my observation.

Xvorg · October 2018

Well, they have an entire magicka melee class they don't even pay attention to. I highly doubt they even consider melee mageblade more important than pew pew mageblade

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · December 2018

Very well put, @casparian. I have always love the melee MagBlade, but over the past few DLCs, they really don't seem to be viable anymore.

For me, the nail in the coffin was the change to resource management when Morrowind went live. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the direction they went in. But that new place was no longer a picture that Concealed Weapon fit into. Honestly, the only build I think it fits into is a resource gathering build (coupled with Shadowy Disguise) and the Caluurion/Zaan bomber build you mentioned.

What do you guys think the solution should be? I'm thinking it needs to get the Surprise Attack treatment, and have Major Breach rolled into it. The speed boost is honestly an anachronism, now that we have Swift jewelry and the dev team has decided to standardize speed boosts.

kaithuzar · December 2018

The thing that hinders us the most is general lag & broken skills. Assassin’s Will/merciless resolve is super clunky because:
A.) it’s too slow + sound
B.) light & heavy attacks aren’t consistently proc’ing it
C.) the proc has a tendency to disappear when you are clearly still in combat causing you to hit the ability again (twice) when you were trying to actually use it.
D.) light/heavy attacking prior to getting your burst damage is just not conducive to the “stealth gameplay style” (do stam nb’s have to light/heavy 5 times to get burst? No, they have it coming from other places not replicable on magblade) - this is my exact complaint with using Molag Kena (come out of stealth so everyone sees where the squishy target is & spam light attacks only for it to be dodged or bug out) but at the moment using Molag Kena is the only way to have decent burst.

Compared to other classes our damage mitigation is nonexistent & our healing is terrible. If we had “super burst” this might make up for it however, we don’t. When looking at other classes being able to heal/tank our burst, it’s causing us to either run out of resources or run away.

Lotus fan has basically no purpose. I removed it from my bar ~1 year ago. It’s just received too many nerfs & from a magic perspective just doesn’t seem as viable as other skills. Sure there exist a really niche build where you lotus fan into a heavy Destro attack, but that’s completely opposite the playstyle! If you’re using a Destro staff you WANT to be far away not up close in melee distance; unless you’re using the proc set meta which 90% of the population hates yet they keep adding it.

How does sap heal? I use it & don’t even know, is it a hot? Could it be a hot if not? It’s certainly not a burst heal. Something about the heal should be changed to make it more viable, the healing was nerfed in the past & there have been some bugs in the past causing really high fps lag (maybe why it was nerfed?) but it should be changed slightly to be buffed.

Concealed strike has always hit like a wet noodle in comparison to the damage mitigation capabilities of other classes/builds. It’s not that surprise attack hits harder it’s that the penetration on surprise attack gives the appearance of it being better. I agree with the post above & this should be the same for both magic & stamina morphs.
I can make concealed hit decently the biggest problem is that it almost never hits (unless the person is standing there & blocking, in which case it does almost nothing). Concealed should either go through block or go through dodge roll like previously; that was what really made this class/playstyle shine back in the day.

Kadoin · December 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

Compared to other classes our damage mitigation is nonexistent & our healing is terrible. If we had “super burst” this might make up for it however, we don’t. When looking at other classes being able to heal/tank our burst, it’s causing us to either run out of resources or run away.

Is serious or trolling? Either way, I

kaithuzar · December 2018

Kadoin wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Compared to other classes our damage mitigation is nonexistent & our healing is terrible. If we had “super burst” this might make up for it however, we don’t. When looking at other classes being able to heal/tank our burst, it’s causing us to either run out of resources or run away.

Is serious or trolling? Either way, I

I feel the same way going into Cyrodiil

thankyourat · December 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

The thing that hinders us the most is general lag & broken skills. Assassin’s Will/merciless resolve is super clunky because:
A.) it’s too slow + sound
B.) light & heavy attacks aren’t consistently proc’ing it
C.) the proc has a tendency to disappear when you are clearly still in combat causing you to hit the ability again (twice) when you were trying to actually use it.
D.) light/heavy attacking prior to getting your burst damage is just not conducive to the “stealth gameplay style” (do stam nb’s have to light/heavy 5 times to get burst? No, they have it coming from other places not replicable on magblade) - this is my exact complaint with using Molag Kena (come out of stealth so everyone sees where the squishy target is & spam light attacks only for it to be dodged or bug out) but at the moment using Molag Kena is the only way to have decent burst.

Compared to other classes our damage mitigation is nonexistent & our healing is terrible. If we had “super burst” this might make up for it however, we don’t. When looking at other classes being able to heal/tank our burst, it’s causing us to either run out of resources or run away.

Lotus fan has basically no purpose. I removed it from my bar ~1 year ago. It’s just received too many nerfs & from a magic perspective just doesn’t seem as viable as other skills. Sure there exist a really niche build where you lotus fan into a heavy Destro attack, but that’s completely opposite the playstyle! If you’re using a Destro staff you WANT to be far away not up close in melee distance; unless you’re using the proc set meta which 90% of the population hates yet they keep adding it.

How does sap heal? I use it & don’t even know, is it a hot? Could it be a hot if not? It’s certainly not a burst heal. Something about the heal should be changed to make it more viable, the healing was nerfed in the past & there have been some bugs in the past causing really high fps lag (maybe why it was nerfed?) but it should be changed slightly to be buffed.

Concealed strike has always hit like a wet noodle in comparison to the damage mitigation capabilities of other classes/builds. It’s not that surprise attack hits harder it’s that the penetration on surprise attack gives the appearance of it being better. I agree with the post above & this should be the same for both magic & stamina morphs.
I can make concealed hit decently the biggest problem is that it almost never hits (unless the person is standing there & blocking, in which case it does almost nothing). Concealed should either go through block or go through dodge roll like previously; that was what really made this class/playstyle shine back in the day.

Actually destro staff melee magblade is better than the other versions of melee magblade in my opinion. Destro staff just has better sustain and damage. Opening up the option to run elemental drain which is like the most op ability in the game offering sustain and penetration all in one. You have a melee spammable so you don't actually need to use a melee weapon. You also get the benefit of having your light and heavy attacks scale with your weapon.

It still has alot of weaknesses like being squishy and lacking healing but your damage and sustain will actually be really good. Is there a reason in particular you choose a stamina weapon for melee magblade over a destro staff?

Iskiab · December 2018

I know when I first started I played with dual wield and a bow. Reason being I went with a preconceived notion of what a nightblade should be. Then I played some more and changed to a destro staff. I kept playing with a bow for a while because I like the look of them, but no matter what I did the damage was subpar.

Then I researched the mechanics of the game and realized that as a magicka class you NEED to use destruction staves, there is no option.

So back to the OP's point, he could use a destruction staff with concealed and lotus fan, but why? He wouldn't have the survivability to last in pvp, the class has been balanced around being a squishy ranged caster making those abilities a waste of time.

kaithuzar · December 2018

thankyourat wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

The thing that hinders us the most is general lag & broken skills. Assassin’s Will/merciless resolve is super clunky because:
A.) it’s too slow + sound
B.) light & heavy attacks aren’t consistently proc’ing it
C.) the proc has a tendency to disappear when you are clearly still in combat causing you to hit the ability again (twice) when you were trying to actually use it.
D.) light/heavy attacking prior to getting your burst damage is just not conducive to the “stealth gameplay style” (do stam nb’s have to light/heavy 5 times to get burst? No, they have it coming from other places not replicable on magblade) - this is my exact complaint with using Molag Kena (come out of stealth so everyone sees where the squishy target is & spam light attacks only for it to be dodged or bug out) but at the moment using Molag Kena is the only way to have decent burst.

Compared to other classes our damage mitigation is nonexistent & our healing is terrible. If we had “super burst” this might make up for it however, we don’t. When looking at other classes being able to heal/tank our burst, it’s causing us to either run out of resources or run away.

Lotus fan has basically no purpose. I removed it from my bar ~1 year ago. It’s just received too many nerfs & from a magic perspective just doesn’t seem as viable as other skills. Sure there exist a really niche build where you lotus fan into a heavy Destro attack, but that’s completely opposite the playstyle! If you’re using a Destro staff you WANT to be far away not up close in melee distance; unless you’re using the proc set meta which 90% of the population hates yet they keep adding it.

How does sap heal? I use it & don’t even know, is it a hot? Could it be a hot if not? It’s certainly not a burst heal. Something about the heal should be changed to make it more viable, the healing was nerfed in the past & there have been some bugs in the past causing really high fps lag (maybe why it was nerfed?) but it should be changed slightly to be buffed.

Concealed strike has always hit like a wet noodle in comparison to the damage mitigation capabilities of other classes/builds. It’s not that surprise attack hits harder it’s that the penetration on surprise attack gives the appearance of it being better. I agree with the post above & this should be the same for both magic & stamina morphs.
I can make concealed hit decently the biggest problem is that it almost never hits (unless the person is standing there & blocking, in which case it does almost nothing). Concealed should either go through block or go through dodge roll like previously; that was what really made this class/playstyle shine back in the day.

Actually destro staff melee magblade is better than the other versions of melee magblade in my opinion. Destro staff just has better sustain and damage. Opening up the option to run elemental drain which is like the most op ability in the game offering sustain and penetration all in one. You have a melee spammable so you don't actually need to use a melee weapon. You also get the benefit of having your light and heavy attacks scale with your weapon.

It still has alot of weaknesses like being squishy and lacking healing but your damage and sustain will actually be really good. Is there a reason in particular you choose a stamina weapon for melee magblade over a destro staff?

Forward momentum.

I’m of the opinion that in order to risk being in melee range you either need forward momentum or mist form to avoid being snared to death.

I decided that as a brawler I need to be able to take a few hits & with dawnbreaker being the most prevalent ultimate, combined with the amount of mag dk’s I fight, vampire was just not working for me.

Btw my sustain is fine, damage is good, the only thing I’m lacking is “sustained pressure”. But this isn’t a dueling build.
My playstyle is open world Cyrodiil typical small man/soloist.

I capitalize on opponents being distracted, I focus targets, I can tank for a minute & kite decently. It’s what I like & besides, swords are cool.

Trancestor · December 2018

Why do you think they have a vision for anything? They probably don't care theres your answer.

TheFamousMockingbird · December 2018

Another bug/problem is that Concealed Weapon morph does not count as a melee attack from what I can tell. Tried using it to proc the Selene’s monster set (procs on melee attacks) and nothing.zip.nada.

kaithuzar · December 2018

TheFamousMockingbird wrote: »

Another bug/problem is that Concealed Weapon morph does not count as a melee attack from what I can tell. Tried using it to proc the Selene’s monster set (procs on melee attacks) and nothing.zip.nada.

It counts as it’s own special thing called “melee magicka ability”

Maybe dk’s whip is the same?

lucky_Sage · December 2018

Magick melee playstyle gets the shaft they get most punishments for being range mag and not many positives for being melee. Magdk has a slightly lower spammable but still has highest cost to abilities avg.
Then no mag melee weapon so if using staff super long heavy attack and if using Stam weapon losing on sustain dmg and resource return.
Since 2 out of 5 classes are melee and 1 has the option to be melee a melee mag weapon makes since and can also bring build divisirsity for all classes melee magSorcs and magden. Then better melee magdblades, magplar and magdk

kaithuzar · December 2018

The primary options for magic melee:
Duel wield swords or 2h sword

(Technically you can use a Destro staff but I’m going to exclude that unless someone wants to really argue that point.)

The reason you use swords instead of other weapons is that “weapons (non-staves) typically buff things like weapon damage(as would be used by a stamina player) or weapon ie...”physical” penetration; or things that scale with one or both of those.

Swords (either setup) buffs ALL damage by 5%
(Duel wield use to be more year(s) ago but it was eventually & currently evened out.
It was previously 3% each sword so duel wield had an extra 1% over 2h ....)

The problem is that for magic users, staves are common place & thus for end game trials it has always been common to “weave” light/medium/heavy attacks with a primary/spammable skill. This effectively allows for higher damage but it can roughly estimate to 50% of your damage coming from those extra light/etc.. attacks.

No big deal because staff light/etc... still scales with spell penetration but, the moment you equip a/multiple sword(s), you’re generally cutting your dps in half because:
1) swords scale off of weapon penetration not highest penetration value.

2) I feel like weaving with swords are clunky & often the light/etc... attacks don’t always register.

Datthaw · December 2018

What irks me the most about magnb is how lag can destroy my attack. How am I supposed to build mercy stacks when the game eats 2 of my light attacks due to lag. Talk Abut Backloaded

kaithuzar · December 2018

Datthaw wrote: »

What irks me the most about magnb is how lag can destroy my attack. How am I supposed to build mercy stacks when the game eats 2 of my light attacks due to lag. Talk Abut Backloaded

I think the “eating” you’re referring to is that the game doesn’t register your light attack as either:
1) having fired
2) having hit an opponent

This is because weaving in lag is clunky & the implementation of whether an attack registers or not gets screwed up because of lag or desync when weaving is all about timing it’s impossible to get right.

Whether your light/medium/heavy attack hit your target is due to the targeting system needing much love & work as it is currently very bad.
There are a few “hackish” things that either over complicate this process/system, make matters worse, or at least cause issues troubleshooting & that is: (light/medium/heavy attacks)
1) being reflected
2) being blocked
3) getting eaten by a damage shield of some type (I believe there are many & who knows if they all work the same or not... monster sets, dampen/harness, gear sets, absorption s&b, shimmering, etc...)
4) being dodged by either passive dodge chance or meridia’s blessed set