Also to those referencing the previous elder scrolls as an argument for keeping racials significant, Im sure you are entirely fine for racials to only be significant in the early to mid game and meaningless in endgame, just like the SP games.
Facefister wrote: »In SP games you're a demi-god, ofcourse your race wont matter in the late game.
STATS:
Male High Elf character modifiers:
+10 Intelligence
+10 Willpower
-10 Strength
-10 Endurance
Female High Elf character modifiers:
+10 Intelligence
+10 Personality
-10 Strength
-10 Endurance
SPECIAL ABILITY:
High Elf Special Advantage:
Immunity to paralysis
Base Attributes
Strength 30 30
Intelligence 50 50
Willpower 40 40
Agility 40 40
Speed 30 40
Endurance 40 30
Personality 40 40
Luck 40 40
Skill Bonuses:
Destruction Destruction +10
Enchant Enchant +10
Alchemy Alchemy +10
Alteration Alteration +5
Conjuration Conjuration +5
Illusion Illusion +5
Special Advantages:
Ability: Resist Common Disease Resist Common Disease: 75%
Ability: Weakness to Shock Weakness to Shock: 25%
Ability: Weakness to Frost Weakness to Frost: 25%
Ability: Weakness to Fire Weakness to Fire: 50%
Ability: Weakness to Magicka Weakness to Magicka: 50%
Ability: Fortify Maximum Magicka Fortify Maximum Magicka 1.5x INT (150% more Magicka)
Male
+10 Intelligence
-10 Strength and Speed
Female
+10 Intelligence
-10 Strength and Endurance
Skills
+10 Alteration, Destruction, and Mysticism
+5 Alchemy, Conjuration, and Illusion
Traits
High Elf Enhanced Magicka ability (FormID 00047ADC): Fortify Magicka 100 points on Self, constant
High Elf Disease Resistance ability (FormID 00047AD7): Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability (FormID 00014D52): Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant
They get the only attribute bonus in skyrim - a 5 level equivalent boost to Magicka. Skillwise, the Altmer start with a lot of bonuses to spellcasting, so it's easier for them to get right to spellcasting out of the gate. However, nothing is stopping a Redguard from using a trainer to catch up, and the Redguard not having a bonus to Magicka just puts him in the same boat as every other race in Nirn instead of being particularly deficient at magic.Highborn ability (FormID 00105f16): High Elves are born with 50 extra magicka, constant
Highborn greater power (FormID 000e40c8): Regenerate magicka faster for 60 seconds, once per day.
Base Magicka Regeneration is increased by 2500% for 60 seconds.
Resist FatigueCC (FormID xx000874): Your High Elf blood gives you 25% resistance to fatigue.
Height: 1.08
In addition to Flames, Altmer start with the spell Fury.
Facefister wrote: »I am talking about Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. Especially in Skyrim, you were a demi-god. In the SP games race does only matter until you find out who you and your capacities are. I base this on the lore and not on gameplay mechanics.
Facefister wrote: »If you rely/blame your entire success/failure on the 10% more magicka or whatever else your race brings, then you're not good at all and you're not able to play at the top "1%" to begin with. I mean I've got the beast personality and skin with my Redguard HealSorc. If you want to play a Khajiit MagSorc then play it. If you want to play an Altmer StamBlade, do it. There is no content you can't do.
Yes, they most certainly do.John_Falstaff wrote: »Genes don't convey a skill of cutting purses or affinity for swordsmanship.
Facefister wrote: »Again, I am talking about the lore, not the mechanics or engine limitations.
I am playing this game for three years now and I have yet to encounter a case where a person got kicked because of his/her "off-meta" race.
Mangeli200194 wrote: »First off yeah I'm a IRL redguard myselfso don't skin me alive for saying this but racial passives are like my friends from Grundschule (long long ago) saying that "Oh you must be good at drumming then". BS. Just saying. Racial passives lore wise imo represent the upbringing of the character and should not be tied to the race itself. Instead of having a khajiit racial passive there should be "skirmischer passives" or "mage passives". Would make more sense that way.
And I still say, it should be -both- with "racial passives" representing a Kajiits "kittyness" only (or other races biological and "mystical" distinctiveness, resistances, etc.), and "background passives" that represent if they grew up training to be a skirmisher or studying to be a mage...Mangeli200194 wrote: »Racial passives lore wise imo represent the upbringing of the character and should not be tied to the race itself. Instead of having a khajiit racial passive there should be "skirmischer passives" or "mage passives".
...and I miss those days...starkerealm wrote: »The problem I come back to is, Race in the single player games was a first step. It suggested a build, but let you ignore that and wander off to your heart's content. But, ultimately it's a capped system. Your Breton may have more magicka than a Nord, but they won't be a "better" mage, they'll just find that road easier.
Yeah. Like I often say, I really wish they'd bring back attribute softcaps, that might help a bit...starkerealm wrote: »The central problem here is very simple. It's the attribute pool scaling. If that didn't exist, we wouldn't have this problem. (With a few outliers like Argonians and Redguards.) Because your stat pool increases the effectiveness of that resource type, we're always going to face problems with one race being better suited to a particular role based on their attribute modifiers. (Again, looking back at the single player games, there were finite hard caps, which meant some things would come easier, while others would be harder, but there was a finite end point.) If you wanted to get your Nord's intelligence to 100, you could do that. It'd just be harder than making your Altmer or Breton a super-genius.
Mangeli200194 wrote: »First off yeah I'm a IRL redguard myselfso don't skin me alive for saying this but racial passives are like my friends from Grundschule (long long ago) saying that "Oh you must be good at drumming then". BS. Just saying. Racial passives lore wise imo represent the upbringing of the character and should not be tied to the race itself. Instead of having a khajiit racial passive there should be "skirmischer passives" or "mage passives". Would make more sense that way.
milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »P.S.: If Jujutsu was a thing in Elder Scrolls, I'm pretty sure it would be dominated by Altmer.
You 3-stripe white belts know what I'm talking about...
Also to those referencing the previous elder scrolls as an argument for keeping racials significant, Im sure you are entirely fine for racials to only be significant in the early to mid game and meaningless in endgame, just like the SP games.Facefister wrote: »In SP games you're a demi-god, ofcourse your race wont matter in the late game.
It has nothing to do with being a demi-god, and everything to do with how skills and attributes work in the single-player games vs. the MMO. Lets use Altmer as an example:
In Daggerfall, High Elves start with the following racial attributes:STATS:
Male High Elf character modifiers:
+10 Intelligence
+10 Willpower
-10 Strength
-10 Endurance
Female High Elf character modifiers:
+10 Intelligence
+10 Personality
-10 Strength
-10 Endurance
SPECIAL ABILITY:
High Elf Special Advantage:
Immunity to paralysis
Now, Daggerfall has a stat cap of 100, and every level gives you a certain amount of points to spend. High Elves definitely have 1/10th of an easier start as a mage, but a Redguard who puts his effort towards his intelligence can reach the same ability once both are at the cap.
Unfortunately, in Daggerfall, these racial bonuses are actually overwritten when you choose a class! So, in conclusion, what you get for choosing a high elf is:
Immunity to Paralysis.
That's good, but that's nothing that makes playing a Redguard wizard unviable.
So we move on to Morrowind:Base Attributes
Strength 30 30
Intelligence 50 50
Willpower 40 40
Agility 40 40
Speed 30 40
Endurance 40 30
Personality 40 40
Luck 40 40
Skill Bonuses:
Destruction Destruction +10
Enchant Enchant +10
Alchemy Alchemy +10
Alteration Alteration +5
Conjuration Conjuration +5
Illusion Illusion +5
Special Advantages:
Ability: Resist Common Disease Resist Common Disease: 75%
Ability: Weakness to Shock Weakness to Shock: 25%
Ability: Weakness to Frost Weakness to Frost: 25%
Ability: Weakness to Fire Weakness to Fire: 50%
Ability: Weakness to Magicka Weakness to Magicka: 50%
Ability: Fortify Maximum Magicka Fortify Maximum Magicka 1.5x INT (150% more Magicka)
Here we are getting somewhere! Now our racials are affecting attributes and skills.Now, like Daggerfall, Morrowind has a base cap of 100 for attributes and skills. You can go way over this using spells, enchantments, or alchemy, but the situation ends up the same as in Daggerfall:
While leveling, an Altmer will have a much easier time using magic than a Redguard. They'll have more INT and WILL, and 1.5x more magicka than a Redguard on top of that. They'll fizzle less and be able to cast more spells before needing to use a potion or, if they are cool and good, absorb more magicka using the Atronarch.
However, in this situation, when the Redguard and High Elf are in the same situation - both at the skill and attribute cap of 100 for whatever school of spellcasting they want to be in - they will be functionally the same except for the special advantages / disadvantages. A 100 INT / DES Redguard Battlemage's fireball will not cause 15-25% less damage than a 100 INT / DES Altmer Battlemage's Fireball. They will be able to cast it more before running out of mana, but check it out: In this situation they have weaknesses that are relevant to the entire game, and can possibly outweigh the bonus INT.
Sure, you can fire off a few more fireballs before downing a blue bottle - but on the other hand, fighting other mages is MUCH tougher on an Altmer than on a Redguard. And you fight mages through the entire game, so this is a viable choice with no clue "superior" option. Do you want to put more effort into alchemy, or be more careful around mages? Other than that, your playstyle once you hit the cap isn't going to be worlds apart.
Oblivion:Male
+10 Intelligence
-10 Strength and Speed
Female
+10 Intelligence
-10 Strength and Endurance
Skills
+10 Alteration, Destruction, and Mysticism
+5 Alchemy, Conjuration, and Illusion
Traits
High Elf Enhanced Magicka ability (FormID 00047ADC): Fortify Magicka 100 points on Self, constant
High Elf Disease Resistance ability (FormID 00047AD7): Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability (FormID 00014D52): Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant
Alright, so now the stats that are actually effected are even less. We get a boost to intelligence, and a boost to six skills. The weakness to fire has been lowered. Again, in Oblivion, we have a skill cap of 100. You level up based on every 10 skill increases to a major skill, so an Altmer will reach the cap faster, but again - A Redguard can also reach the cap. The damage of an Altmer and the damage of a Redguard at the cap will also be the same.
Now, Altmer do have the most Magicka, definitely. But, again, Magicka in the single-player games isn't tied to a % increase to damage in any form, just the ability to cast more spells. If we look at destruction, that 100 Mana, at 100 skill, would help you with one extra cast of the expert tier Destruction spell "Dire Enervation," a stamina drain spell, or an extra cast of any Journeyman level destruction spell. Not a game-changer.
Skyrim:They get the only attribute bonus in skyrim - a 5 level equivalent boost to Magicka. Skillwise, the Altmer start with a lot of bonuses to spellcasting, so it's easier for them to get right to spellcasting out of the gate. However, nothing is stopping a Redguard from using a trainer to catch up, and the Redguard not having a bonus to Magicka just puts him in the same boat as every other race in Nirn instead of being particularly deficient at magic.Highborn ability (FormID 00105f16): High Elves are born with 50 extra magicka, constant
Highborn greater power (FormID 000e40c8): Regenerate magicka faster for 60 seconds, once per day.
Base Magicka Regeneration is increased by 2500% for 60 seconds.
Resist FatigueCC (FormID xx000874): Your High Elf blood gives you 25% resistance to fatigue.
Height: 1.08
In addition to Flames, Altmer start with the spell Fury.
And, yeah, Skyrim has a skill cap of 100. At which point, these two characters, who had vastly different journeys, will not do different damage based on their choice during character creation.
Summary
The biggest differences between the (good) single-player racial abilities and the (really bad) MMO ones are the following:
1) The single-player games all based damage solely around the skill, which meant that two characters with the same skill level were equally skilled. The difference wasn't in how powerful the skill they would end up with would be, just how much effort it took to reach that level of skill.
2) Because there is a skill cap, eventually all characters can max out their effectiveness.
3) The Special Advantages and Disadvantages had gameplay effects that remain relevant to your choice of character through the game. In Morrowind and Oblivion, the choice between an Altmer and any other race for a spellcaster was not as "clear cut" because their weaknesses were actual weaknesses. If you didn't want to deal with magicka weakness, it makes sense to choose any other race.
4) Racial abilities could be compensated for using birthsigns or custom classes in all the RPGs except for Skyrim.
5) In a single-player game, you have no responsibility to other players. In an MMO, you are seen as having this responsibility, and making a choice that makes the game harder actually has an effect on the people you play with. In the single-player games, playing a Redguard wizard would be challenging, but the person you are challenging is yourself. If you queue for a DLC dungeon as a Redguard wizard, you are forcing other players to participate in your "challenge" whether they want you to or not. This can get you blacklisted from certain types of content, something that cannot happen in a single-player game (and won't usually happen in an MMO, where racials do not have a disparity over like, 1% max.)
* Some of you may point out that I left out Battlespire. I have no regrets!!!!
starkerealm wrote: »Mangeli200194 wrote: »First off yeah I'm a IRL redguard myselfso don't skin me alive for saying this but racial passives are like my friends from Grundschule (long long ago) saying that "Oh you must be good at drumming then". BS. Just saying. Racial passives lore wise imo represent the upbringing of the character and should not be tied to the race itself. Instead of having a khajiit racial passive there should be "skirmischer passives" or "mage passives". Would make more sense that way.
For what it's worth, the single player games did, kinda, lean towards the idea that the racial passives were, primarily, regional. The census agent in Seyda Neen would ask you, "where are you from?" Leading to the racial selection menu. Now, it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't know your race on sight, but it might make sense that the stat modifiers received were based more on your homeland, and your character happened to correspond to that provinces primary population.
Oblivion did away with this, and simply mocked you for your racial choice, while Skyrim resorted to a simple, "who are you?" (I also don't remember Daggerfall or Arena caring much on the subject.)
So, there's some element of truth to the idea that the base skill bonuses were more to do with your character's cultural background, rather than their genetics.
That said, the permanent bonuses and racial powers were explicitly tied to a character's race. Bretons and Altmer had increased magicka because of their Aldmeri heritages, Nords had increased cold resist, Dunmer had their fire resists. Argonians have their resistances to diseases and poisons. Those do seem to be biological. As do the attributes (before their removal), though those also incorporated an element of training as well.
The problem I come back to is, Race in the single player games was a first step. It suggested a build, but let you ignore that and wander off to your heart's content. But, ultimately it's a capped system. Your Breton may have more magicka than a Nord, but they won't be a "better" mage, they'll just find that road easier.
Race in ESO is far more significant. It's taken what was a minor, and limited, buff set, and turned it into the baseline for the entire game. So instead of it being a starting point, race becomes the end of the road. The same example above doesn't apply because in ESO, your Breton will be a better mage than a Nord (assuming they have similar builds).
The central problem here is very simple. It's the attribute pool scaling. If that didn't exist, we wouldn't have this problem. (With a few outliers like Argonians and Redguards.) Because your stat pool increases the effectiveness of that resource type, we're always going to face problems with one race being better suited to a particular role based on their attribute modifiers. (Again, looking back at the single player games, there were finite hard caps, which meant some things would come easier, while others would be harder, but there was a finite end point.) If you wanted to get your Nord's intelligence to 100, you could do that. It'd just be harder than making your Altmer or Breton a super-genius.
To be honest, short of a full stat/skill overhaul, I'm not sure how to address any of this. I'm also not 100% certain that would be a good idea.
At this point, I'm kind of inclined to agree with the point that, maybe, the racials should be stripped entirely from the game, and racial passives should be reworked into some kind of framework skill tree, where you have to pick nodes, and in the process give up others, while shaping your class.
Hmm, interesting. If you were the lead of the racial balance team, how would you change the racials in this case?
Hmm, interesting. If you were the lead of the racial balance team, how would you change the racials in this case?
This is a little complicated because of the role that Stamina and Magicka play in so many of the game's combat calculations.
The ideal solution would be softcaps, for all the reasons people listed on this page. However, this would be a bigger challenge because it involves a major change to the games balance systems. You'd need multiple teams for it.
An example of what dodgehopper_ESO is talking about (unsure if we are allowed to mention other MMO names on here), there was a really old MMO where multiple races could play paladins. Two of the Paladin races were considered very hard to level because the races were traditionally made for casters, and started with very low strength. This made leveling them up fairly difficult compared to a short beefy paladin.
However, at end game, you'd end up with stats relevant to the Paladin's role (health) being equal due to reaching the cap. This didn't mean a skinny caster paladin and a short stocky paladin were the same at max level though, because, while equally good at the primary job of paladins - taking hits - they differed significantly on the secondary roles of paladins, with the casters being good off-healers and short stocky dudes being able to deal more damage while they tanked.
If we're just talking about a racial balance pass:
I don't have any formal game design training, and coming up with solutions is significantly harder than analyzing problems.
With that in mind,
1) Recategorize all racial passives into two groups: Passives that affect the leveling game, and passives that affect the entire game. These would roughly correspond to Skill Bonuses and "Special Advantages" in the main TES gameline.
2) Skill bonuses make up a majority of character racial bonuses in the single-player series. Be very generous with these since they don't affect balance. Here's where you can go crazy with designs.
a) Every race should get an armor leveling passive, a weapon leveling passive, and a third leveling passive. Make the third something optional but nice to have - Throw Fighter's Guild at Redguard, or Mage's Guild at Altmer, or Legerdemain at Khajiit. These are exciting (they would significantly shorten existing grinds) but won't affect group play.
b) You can open the door to more interesting leveling options here, too. What if Khajiit Nightblades start with Siphoning Strikes unlocked? This would give them a significant and unique advantage for "thieving" gameplay, but again, one which does not lock Khajiit into a "StamDPS or Bust" role later in the game.
c) If you wanted, you could even entirely replace these passives by starting each character with certain skill lines pre-leveled to a certain amount based on your character race. This would require some number testing to figure out the sweet spot, though.
3) Special Advantages. These should effect the entire game, but in a secondary way to fulfilling a major role. Less of these, because you actually have to be careful with them.
a) A Nord's Frost resistance is a good example here. It can be really handy in a variety of situations or timeframes, but it won't lock you into or out of a role. Defense bonuses are especially good because what defenses are used is going to vary by content, so not having something like frost defense can be helpful, but not having it won't be stigmatized.
b) Throw in some active abilities too. You don't even have to design a whole skill line - Bring back an Ancestor Ghost type ability for Dunmer, give Bosmer Mark Target, whatever. This is another traditional MMO racial option.
They would be up there, for sure. One of the first lessons I got hit in the face with was that size really DOES matter, contrary to some opinions.dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »P.S.: If Jujutsu was a thing in Elder Scrolls, I'm pretty sure it would be dominated by Altmer.
You 3-stripe white belts know what I'm talking about...
I favor the Orc or Nord at Jiu jitsu, honestly. They have a lower center of gravity and they are obviously more muscularly built. All things being equal my bet is on them.
bellanca6561n wrote: »I was looking at another of one of those...polls, this one about some talk of upcoming "rebalancing" of racial passives.
Can we just STOP tying character passives to RACE?
Roll a character. During the process choose the passives you want, limited of course. Assume every character, regardless of race, has their own individual abilities based on the player who created them, and let that be an end to it.
Shalidor was a Nord. We see Redguard and Orc mages among the NPCs. Plus this is the 21st Century after all, for what that's worth
TheShadowScout wrote: »
[sarcasm]I wonder how anyone could tell them apart...[/sarcasm]
Seriously though, how do you come by that assumption?
Where in your much vaunted in-game lore does it say nedes are nords by a different name?
I mean, usually when two things have a different name, they are somewhat different, right?
That goes double for fantasy games where one group (known as the game developers) .named pretty much everything.
(unless its two different languages naming the same thing... do you have evidence for that, then? That "nedes" means "nord" in the chimer tongue?)
TheShadowScout wrote: »Were they consumed or assimilated?
Make Up Your Mind!
TheShadowScout wrote: »Now, the thing here is, you have a place where nedes and direnni aldmer live together, and a era or so later you have bretons living in that place with a history of "mixed human and elven blood". You say, the bretons "assimilated" the nedes, "consuming" them like a cannibal feast so that no trace of the nedic people remains, I say the bretons are the -descendants- of the nedes and armorous direnni, having changed in race and culture over time, and so the nedes have in a way -become- the bretons.
TheShadowScout wrote: »And you have a place where nedes live as slaves of ayleid elves, and a era or so later you have imperials living in that place with a history of akaviri influences and glory tales of their successful slave uprising and invasion repulsing. You would say, the imperials "assimilated" the nedes, "consuming" so that no trace of the nedic people remains, I say the imperials too are the -descendants- of the nedes, with some akaviri men and cyro-nord blood thrown into the mix, having changed in race and culture over time, and so the nedes have in a way -become- the imperials.
TheShadowScout wrote: »And now we compare bretons and imperials... two descendant people of the nedes... and notice they are different! Woooo, surprise! Then we compare them all to the nords, who are according to you exactly like nedes... different again, oh my! And no daedric curse this time, just... time. And the passing of it.
So maaaybe there is something about races changing over time after all, huh?
Consider the "above" to have been thoroughly debunked.TheShadowScout wrote: »
TheShadowScout wrote: »True.
Unless some trait was not so minor, like, oh... magical, maybe?
So it stands to reason, in a magical world like tamriel, if humans intermingled, a dominant magical trait might intermix with a different magical trait from the other side and maybe, just maybe combine into something new like alchemy recipes?
TheShadowScout wrote: »How and where did you spot a "magical change", like the well documented ones with the orsimer and dunmer???
I only ever found a vague mention of the aldmer who stayed on the Summerset isles "becoming" the altmer... and while you are right that there is no physical change mentioned, there also is no mention of a lack of physical changes, and that begs the question, why the change in name then?
TheShadowScout wrote: »And the next question, why are they not the same as all the others, ayleids and chimer, which also sprang from aldmer settlers? And we -know- from the game that the altmer went golden-skinned, the aylaids a bit more bronze and the chimer somewhat silver... I mean, that does sound a lot like some sort of change, possibly "adaptation to living in different regions" to me, right? (the bosmer are a different story, and may actually have been the first mer to intermingle with men to change their elfy bloodlines. )
TheShadowScout wrote: »Much like a great many european people could trace their origins to middle eastern regions if we only went back a couple ten millenia... but despite that common origin you would find quite a bit of difference between an iberic celt and a noseman if you picked them from history and compared them, right?
TheShadowScout wrote: »And what else would you call a change over generations?
Especially a spiritual weakening -only- experienced by those who settled on the oh so limited -mortal- plane, and not their cousins who fled to more etheric realms???
TheShadowScout wrote: »So you deny those parts of the developers writings that disagree with your point of view, and place in-world -subjective fiction- over OoC - objective description-???
(even tho those descriptions do change a little as they retcon their fluff through changing game mechanics - I said it before, the one "theme" that is shared counts, and the latest info supersedes prior info - as always in fictional universes plagued by changing circumstances and works)
TheShadowScout wrote: »Also, the descriptions never say "all", they are not an all-encompassing thing, they are a general thing.
When they say that "orcs are tough" only fool would assume that would apply to -every- orc... but it can be assumed that orcs value toghness, and the tougher an orc is the higher in status he or she will be..., and that the enduring of hardships is something orsimer grow up with, yes?
How's that for a few snippets from the "rest of the lore"?
TheShadowScout wrote: »Not so.
I say again:
The racial perks mentioned in the descriptions are just that - and true across the -race-.
If any -individual- develops them (aka, spends skill points in these passives) is up to their -upbringing-
The lore of the racial descriptions do not preclude any individual of that race not following the racial affinity, just like someone with an genetic affinity for sports could still choose to become a nerdy couch potato much to the aggrivation of their sporty dad, or someone with an affinity for languages could still leave that unused if they never ever listened to anything but their villages native speech.
TheShadowScout wrote: »Not that any race has such an great affinity in RL anyhow, as you did mention - here its just minor stuff like not getting sunburned as quickly, or doing better at high altitudes and so on. Obviously the developers of this fantasy world wanted it to be more noticable... far beyond the scope or realism noticable.
So?
That IS their choice. They decide how they want to build their fantasy world.
TheShadowScout wrote: »Do you know how many "realistic" descriptions we had in our universe that ended up thrown out because they were blatantly subjective? Especially the ones about how great the authors race is and how subhuman all the other races are... we here in the german speaking bits of europe had quite a bit of trouble with these eighty-five or so years ago...
And thus the in-world books should be seen in the scope of the society they are written for - how accurate do you think books were during the middle ages, when people often made their money selling tall tales as supposed "truth about the new world" (whatever "new world" they were currently "discovering")?
TheShadowScout wrote: »Heck, forget the real world, how -accurate- would you count anything written by Narsis Dres, having met the bufffoon in your questing???
And how many of the other books are written in the same state of mind by their authors you just did not meet?
TheShadowScout wrote: »And that is why I find it a little annoying when someone tried to pick and choose what lore they deem "acceptable". Or when they make false conclusions in the light of "If there is no explicit mentjon, it does not exist, no matter how much logical indication there is for it".
Because what exists and what does not - that untilately is also the developers call to make. All we can do here is point out what would be likely, and what would be clashing with something mentioned somewhere...
TheShadowScout wrote: »I think the difference is in suggesting -additions- and -adjustments- to the existing system, and suggesting throwing the existing flavor away and doing it anew from scratch.
TheShadowScout wrote: »Ah, so if a attribute had no -physical- value,. but still a -coultural- one, then it would be bred for despite being non-essential to survival, just from cultural pressure? Like, say... looking good? Or twirling a sword well in case od redguards?
TheShadowScout wrote: »You "ruled out" being lizardlike as possible cause for any argonian racial perks?
How about the daedric curses that made orsimer and dunmer what hey are - ruled out as cause for any racial perks they might display, hmm?
And the magically gifted elf blood due to their diluted but still valid et'ada ancestry... ruled out?
How and when did you rule that out?
In your own mind, and then just assume because you think so that is how it is?
You do realize that is not how the world works, right?
TheShadowScout wrote: »Again, just because it is not mentioned where you like it does not mean you can call it "ruled out", (and most of it is, though much of in in form it logical connections - one thing is mentioned here, another thing there, the logical assumption is they are somehow connected, like argonian lizardish body and their swimming bonus...); you would have to bring -evidence aagainst it- to make that claim.
TheShadowScout wrote: »Already gave more then enough "evidence" from the racial descriptions, and some from secondary lore as well.
TheShadowScout wrote: »So you are saying... what? That there is no evolution in tamriel? That the aldmer never changed into altmer, ayleids, chimer, maormer? That the nedes never changed to bretons and imperials? That the minotaurs never devolved from their state of alessian times? That everyone is and has forever been the same???
TheShadowScout wrote: »Did you find any mention or implication that noone ever changed? If not, how can you be sure it didn't happen? Especially when we have indications it happened, unless some races were prone to random renaming ceremonies for no good reason...
TheShadowScout wrote: »Why the faulty reasoning again?
If we assume a nord has cold resistance which we know they have in the elder scrolls universe... then how does that have anything to do with them also living in non-cold regions (where they often strip because they feel too hot. And yeah, that may be just a "fer da lulz" comic relief, but...)
A better case could be made for the nord cold resistance -not- being tied to their habitat, but... I dunno, some gift frm Kyne so they can climb mountains and shout in the winds?
TheShadowScout wrote: »Most likely, indeed.
But the same could be said for all those well muscled ra'gada-traditionalist warriors showing off their well honed pecs while practicing with their curved swords to all the sentinel girls, rrright? Even if they later inherit their fathers farm and never go on to become a great swordsman, it still is what their culture decrees as "desirable", is it not? While all those redguards who instead study books remain virgins (and thus according to internet memes, become wizards by default), with the occasional wedgie given by the warrior jocks, I imagine (or maybe I am just watching too much highschool anime)
TheShadowScout wrote: »Well, it IS in the lore, and the in-game lore you so highly value...
As for those families, I had always assumed the kids were from a prior engagement (as I assume people die a lot because planemeld and monsters and stuff, and their widows/ers remarry). Is there any evidence I missed contrary to that notion?
TheShadowScout wrote: »True enough. But they are standalone feats that are performed by -unlikely- protagonists. And thus newsworthy! And thus make for a better tale as the hundreth-and-first bosmer who's best at arrows in his generation, or altmer who is the greatest spellsinger of the age (in their own mind anyhow).
It does not need to be pointed out explicitely to work that way, since this is how stories become remembered. The First. The Best. The Last. The Worst. And... The Unlikely One.
Ask yourself, what story will be more widely spread, the reigning champion punching out some noob in the first round, or the unlikely nobody somehow standing up to the champion for the duration? Which story will they make a movie about in hollywood?
And likewise, that's the kind of story they will make a book about in Tamriel.
TheShadowScout wrote: »Its common enough that when someone asked the developer to "sum up the race in a few short lines", THAT is what gets mentioned.
Again, that is what the racial descriptions are, the "common knowledge" depiction of the races flavor, as decreed by the game developers. Admittedly, changing in some details, as fluff often does with game system changes... but the gist of it remains, and the latest info supersedes the prior as things may or may not be retconned to fit the newest game incarnation.
But I guess you will just say you do not accept those, again, huh?
TheShadowScout wrote: »Oh? Don't let a middle earth dwarf hear that!
But yeah, blacksmithing as -racial- perk may be a little far-fetched. Not so crafting in general, if you assume a nomadic people where everyone has to maintain their own gear perhaps... and orsimer were nomadic for many a century, thanks to some jerks always destroying their orsinium...
Well some races being better at certain things is written in the lore, except for all those times where it isn't, or where the lore contradicts itself, etc. But then we just ignore it because we prefer to cherry-pick the lore bits that reinforce our existing proclivities. Which in this case is primarily traditionalist gaming culture which says that races need to be so different that they have measurable game mechanic effects, which just happens to reflect the incredibly racist and unscientific real-world attitudes at the time when this sort of design feature was first put to paper. But it's tradition, so we have no reason to re-examine our approach or expectations to better reflect a rich and dynamic game world, and instead can resolve ourselves to contentedly calcify our perceptions until all characters are little more than race memes. After all, who doesn't want every Khajiit to be a skooma-addled sneakthief and every Redguard to be a big dumb warrior?
Sarcasm aside, even lore giants like Michael Kirkbride have chimed in saying that it's pretty *** up we have these huge race differences when there's no need for them mechanically, nor any lore to support this kind of essentializing of complex people. The only "lore" that supports these game mechanics is the fact that most (but not all!) other TES games have also had such elements in them. Even if we just go by these mechanics, there's been an incredible amount of inconsistency across titles. Just take Breton for example. Usually they get a spread of "magicka" and "intelligence" related racial bonuses, but in Shadowkey they got Fatigue and Health recovery bonuses. What do we do, ignore that because it doesn't fit the primary pattern? Give them both so they're good at everything?
I say just throw it all out the window and have these "race" passives be turned into something else that's uncoupled from race selection entirely. I chose Khajiit for my main for RP purposes, not because I was super duper excited about a health regen build. Sure, I get by on my build with whatever passives my race came with/gets changed to, but it's sort of dumb and unnecessary. We aren't adding value by making our race choice matter in relation to combat mechanics, we're just reinforcing a decades-old tradition of robbing game worlds of their complexity and shoehorning people into either suboptimal performance or catering their role to their race.
Bigevilpeter wrote: »Passives has always been race dependant in every ES game, it is neccesary for game immerssion
dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »At this point, I'm kind of inclined to agree with the point that, maybe, the racials should be stripped entirely from the game, and racial passives should be reworked into some kind of framework skill tree, where you have to pick nodes, and in the process give up others, while shaping your class.
I disagree with your suggestion to strip it all down. The racial bonuses are flavor after all. Argonians do breathe underwater and have innate natural enhancement for aquatic life (just look at that croc tail go). The rest of what you said here I essentially agree with.