I'm sure I'm in the minority but...

concegual · November 2018

Certain things in a game should be hard to get...Every game these days caters to the casual.
If one can't farm Fang lair, Scale caller or anything else a bit difficult in game they don't deserve the rewards or should be forced to buy them from someone who did earn them...These events handing out the things which are harder to earn for free lessen the game.
<Steps off soap box... rant over...

yodased · November 2018

This isn't catering to anyone casual or super leet mlg pro players. The motif drops come at least 6 months after the dungeons themselves and are tied into a daily reward.

Does this lower the market for these motifs? Of course it does, but the people who actually want it have either farmed it or purchased it by now. This is allowing the rest of the game access to something so trivial you really won't notice it.

When you are running by a player do you stop and look at them and see a fang lair or scalecaller chest and ask them if they farmed or bought that?

Earning gold is the easiest thing to do in this game, its stupid easy, but the people who bought it are not up to your standards either.

The thing that you get that adds prestige to dungeons is the skin or the personality, that is what separates the casuals from the "pro players".

This type of attitude is what causes people to not want to even attempt to learn the dungeons as well, elitist high horse behavior doesn't lend well to teaching and helping people grow into someone that can clear the hard mode dungeons.

Colecovision · November 2018

concegual wrote: »

Certain things in a game should be hard to get...Every game these days caters to the casual.
If one can't farm Fang lair, Scale caller or anything else a bit difficult in game they don't deserve the rewards or should be forced to buy them from someone who did earn them...These events handing out the things which are harder to earn for free lessen the game.
<Steps off soap box... rant over...

There's weapons and bis dps sets for that. You've also had plenty of time to make gold off these motifs.

The interesting thing to me is that motifs are a casual part of the game to begin with. You want the game to cater to casuals less, but then sell them motifs? Maybe you should get to have a casual as a mount. Would that be enough?

concegual · November 2018

Not against teaching folks all for it actually...just saying putting things behind an "earn it" barrier keeps the game more interesting. Giving it all away...IMO lessens the game and deters folks from trying to earn things...

Fleshreaper · November 2018

I disagree. I don't think this is catering to casuals. Casuals keep the company in business, without them, you wouldn't have a game. You have to find a balance of players completing content. This event, IMO, is a great idea. It gets players that would not normally be in randoms into randoms. Now, I know you think some of them have no business being there but they do. For the longevity of the game, you need these "casuals" completing content. Because if you don't a point will come where those completing the content will move on and then what. So they get a few motif chapters that may push them into farming those DLCs.

Luigi_Vampa · November 2018

concegual wrote: »

Not against teaching folks all for it actually...just saying putting things behind an "earn it" barrier keeps the game more interesting. Giving it all away...IMO lessens the game and deters folks from trying to earn things...

So you would be happier if you couldn't make money selling these hard to earn motifs? The people buying them sure as hell didn't "earn" them.

Colecovision · November 2018

concegual wrote: »

Not against teaching folks all for it actually...just saying putting things behind an "earn it" barrier keeps the game more interesting. Giving it all away...IMO lessens the game and deters folks from trying to earn things...

But that's not your post. You want them to farm gold elsewhere and buy the motifs off you. If you had started a post that all dlc dungeon motifs should be bind on pickup, then you get to make the "earn it" claim.

concegual · November 2018

never said i wanted them to buy them from me to be honest i'd sooner see them complete the dungeons and earn them...Posted this knowing everyone prefers the easier path :P and knowing I opened myself up to being condemned doesn't change the fact that games have been dumb down over the years and risk vs. reward has slowly been drained from most of them. Sorry yearn for the old days when games were a bit more hardcore...

phermitgb · November 2018

concegual wrote: »

Certain things in a game should be hard to get...
<Steps off soap box... rant over...

why?

honest question - I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering *why* you believe that certain things should be hard to get. And while we're at it, *which* certain things should be hard to get, and *why* those things and not other things?

is it for sense of accomplishment? Is it for vanity/bragging rights? Is it for encouraging growth/practice/experimentation?

I'm just curious to hear your opinion as to why some things should be harder to acquire...

yodased · November 2018

You don't yearn for hardcore games, because there are several out there right now that will give you exactly what you want.

Punishing, grueling difficulty that will remove all your progress and death, or games that give you 1 life only.

What you want is for this particular game to shift into what you feel is the "correct" version of a game that doesn't cater to so-called 'casuals'.

Sorry buddy but this game is by design meant for the people you are shatting on, so yes you are in the minority not only in your opinions but also in the group of players themselves.

Do you have all of your skins? VHOF polymorph? Worm Cult Personality?

If you don't, I would be careful throwing around that casual word so easily, you are part of them.

Skwor · November 2018

One way to kill an MMO is by removing the incentive to play. When all the rewards become easy to achieve or are basically handed out wholesale the incentive to play becomes less. These events do in fact remove that incentive. There is a loose but definite corralation between in game cost of a desired item and incentive to play.

ESO has been losing players recently due to many reasons. I think it niave to assume the lack of incentive and ease of reward is not a contributor. These events and mystery boxes imo do more harm than good, especially for the amount of time they are available.

LIke it or not, having items in the game, many find costly, does provide some indication of a healthy game with a supportive rewards system.

Again imo we are seeing that system decaying and negatively impacting the game's population and interest to play

Enemy-of-Coldharbour · November 2018

Sounds like someone is upset that the event is cutting into their motif selling profits.

ceiron · November 2018

One way to devalue the motifs. But as said players need incentives.

yodased · November 2018

Skwor wrote: »

One way to kill an MMO is by removing the incentive to play. When all the rewards become easy to achieve or are basically handed out wholesale the incentive to play becomes less. These events do in fact remove that incentive. There is a loose but definite corralation between in game cost of a desired item and incentive to play.

ESO has been losing players recently due to many reasons. I think it niave to assume the lack of incentive and ease of reward is not a contributor. These events and mystery boxes imo do more harm than good, especially for the amount of time they are available.

LIke it or not, having items in the game, many find costly, does provide some indication of a healthy game with a supportive rewards system.

Again imo we are seeing that system decaying and negatively impacting the game's population and interest to play

Cite your sources that ESO has been losing players. You have no idea, just like the rest of us from your possible 2600 connections in the game

concegual · November 2018

I would say somethings should be harder to achieve simply to keep that carrot dangled out in front us us give us something to work for... That one thing that in that moment drives us to log in...makes us ponder research... work to figure out how in the hell do I get passed that one boss or encounter etc... I know we all play for different reasons...but i prefer a challenge to an easy task i'd rather fail trying hard then receive the reward simply because i showed up...If there were no more challenges in a game and I were handed all the rewards I'd cancel my sub and go find a game which offered challenge. To be honest i haven't completed my fang lair or scalecaller motif's yet i'm close but not complete...I have sold many copies of one's I already had...But i would rather earn then then be handed them for queuing a random FG1. To each their own and like the name of the post says...I full accept i'm in the minority.

purple-magicb16_ESO · November 2018

Your idea of keeping the game interesting would discourage casuals from playing. This is no way to sell a game. They want this game to be as inclusive as possible.

Danikat · November 2018

One way to look at it is at least this way they're completing a dungeon to get it.

It may not be the one it originally dropped from or one you consider hard enough to warrant it, but it's at least the same type of content. If mystery boxes didn't exist or didn't drop motifs do you really imagine all those "casual" players would start running DLC dungeons to get the motifs? Of course not - they'd buy them from people who are farming the dungeons.

So it looks to me like you're attacking the wrong target here - if you want the rewards to be exclusive so you can imagine other people might notice or care that you're using them the thing to object to is that they're tradable, not which dungeon/s they drop from.

Skwor · November 2018

@yodased
Cite your sources it has not. Truth is Zen does not release the actual numbers. My data for player population is anecdotal and I readily admit that. Zones when I play are less populated imo especially pvp.

Now your turn, what are your sources I am wrong other than your opinion based on your obsevations, or do you not even have that much?

If you are trying to debunk my post on population you need to provide a source. You will note I did not make an arguement that the population being down proves incentives are lacking. I stated incentives are one reason it is going down. An important distinction that allows for me to be wrong on the population fact but still possible to be right about how incentives can impact a game. One is not dependent of the other as I presented. Yes I can be wrong about the population but not necessarily about incentives.

Your challange however is completely dependent on you being right about the population, so please do provide your source.

yodased · November 2018

whats really the motivation behind the thought though.

Why does it matter how anyone else got their motifs? If you are of the mindset that they require work to get them, then work to get them. The work that you put in and the satisfaction that you get for knowing the motif and getting it your "hard" way is enough to satisfy your cravings for hard content.

It really seems to me that you are looking for a way to look down upon those that have not gotten to your level by wearing some kind of gear that they can not get.

The real motivation is to elevate your status, not to make anything more difficult or cater to harder content.

There are always going to be people above you, as there will be people below you, why you are concerned with what they are doing is the real question.

Sapphire_Lily · November 2018

Who are we to dictate who 'deserves' something as frivolous as a gaming reward; these are not rewards analogous with real life accomplishments.

Earn it? People have paid the exact price for a game as everyone else using it; others simply have more time to overindulge in gaming. It's expedient for ZOS to provide opportunities for all players to accomplish every available aspect and receive its concomitant reward.

Stipulating only people of a certain competence or dedication should be entitled to elusive items is to appease vanity. Inclusion will always be priority for companies because it guarantees a profit, complaining is futile. You can even implement your own difficulty setting by removing armour, refraining from using food to buff, play with less experienced players, etc if the sense of accomplishment isn't enough.

Skwor · November 2018

Sapphire_Lily wrote: »

Who are we to dictate who 'deserves' something as frivolous as a gaming reward; these are not rewards analogous with real life accomplishments.

Earn it? People have paid the exact price for a game as everyone else using it; others simply have more time to overindulge in gaming. It's expedient for ZOS to provide opportunities for all players to accomplish every available aspect and receive its concomitant reward.

Stipulating only people of a certain competence or dedication should be entitled to elusive items is to appease vanity. Inclusion will always be priority for companies because it guarantees a profit, complaining is futile. You can even implement your own difficulty setting by removing armour, refraining from using food to buff, play with less experienced players, etc if the sense of accomplishment isn't enough.

Your post fails to account for motivation. Taking your post at face value a company should just issue a button in the game that gives any player all possible rewards. Which I think most can see would result in a pointless game.

Danikat · November 2018

I was going to say I miss the days when people would play a game because they had fun playing it, not because of the rewards it gave, but then I start wondering if that ever actually happened or if I just assumed that's why people were playing.

I understand wanting to play dress up and make your character look good, I do that too (and even decorate houses no one else will ever see) but to me the two are largely separate - I play content for the sake of doing it, because I find it fun, and if I happen to get a nice or useful item it's a bonus. If I want a particular motif or something I will go get it, but I'll look for the quickest/easiest way to get it, so I can go back to doing what I enjoy. (Which I guess is good considering how long I spent before One Tamriel doing quests which gave me no XP and items so far below my level they were useless.)

ParaNostram · November 2018

Eh, I don't get this sort of mindset. I just PvP when I wanna feel "better" than somebody else, but really we're all just people wanting to have fun. Let people have fun and don't get upset about the fun of others.

yodased · November 2018

Skwor wrote: »

Your post fails to account for motivation. Taking your post at face value a company should just issue a button in the game that gives any player all possible rewards. Which I think most can see would result in a pointless game.

By definition video games are pointless, you assign the value and the worth within your own mind. If that button existed, as long as the button wasn't required and there was the traditional way of playing the game to appease the rng gods why would you care if anyone used it?

The only reason anyone ever wants a system that rewards perceived skill is because they want to feel superior to other players. Which is a very interesting notion in itself because there isn't any real world profit or loss in this situation.

A virtual world with virtual spoils that are assigned arbitrary value by everyone within that world means literally nothing.

concegual · November 2018

Guess the point i'm trying to make is... if we are to make rewards "easy to get" and why should anyone else care how someone gets them... I mean whats next? maelstrom weapons in crown crates? because they are to hard to get? One stop shop buy all your gear in just the traits you want? I realize that a motif and gear are far from the same thing... And in the end i suppose its just a game and i don't really care how folks get their stuff... Just saying on a philosophical level I would prefer that many of the harder to get items in the game stayed behind an "earn it" barrier.... here i sit still in the minority. So it goes....

MasterSpatula · November 2018

Like most "slippery slope" arguments, there is no slippery slope here at all.

yodased · November 2018

The misconception here is that your value and other's value need to be compared somehow. The thought that a maelstrom weapon is going to make a player that can not compete with you suddenly able to compete with you is preposterous.

The philosophical reason is because you want to feel better about yourself by being above other players by having something that they do not have.

It's the same reason that people buy ferrari's and lamborginis in cities that have nothing but traffic and why rolex exists and why a million other products and services are catered to the elite.

The "I have something that you don't have and that makes me better" mentality.

Reistr_the_Unbroken · November 2018

So what I can get from this thread is OP ignoring facts/what they’re being told for nonsense, got it. Oh and for the “hard content”? Ever heard of Wild Star?

yodased · November 2018

Another great example of this mentality is in the free market system.

I collect furnishing patterns, it is what I like to do and how I spend my downtime where I don't have enough energy or bandwidth or time to dedicate to something more elaborate. I can run around a place clicking on nodes to come and go as I need to.

This results in quite a few duplicates and some of them sell for ridiculous prices.

If I pull an alinor grand table purple furniture plan that is listed for 1.25 million across traders and sell it for 250k I am immediately accosted by other people who feel that they are being wronged by me. They feel that their market evaluation of price is the correct one and that I am responsible for their lack of profit.

Fair enough, that is an arguable point, but the fact remains that I set the prices on the items I want to sell and I am not interested in listing something like a table for 1,250,000 gold.

Does this make me any better or worse than the next guy selling? Of course not, but there are several people who wil tell you that I am "ruining" the game for them because they can no longer get the price they feel they deserve.

This is ludicrous to the x degree, they have no bearing on my evaluation of my time spent to get an item nor can they dictate to me what I sell something for, but the emotion is real and they attack pretty hard.

At the end of the day I leave with a quote from a great person: Teddy Roosevelt.

"Comparison is the thief of joy."

zaria · November 2018

Colecovision wrote: »

concegual wrote: »

Not against teaching folks all for it actually...just saying putting things behind an "earn it" barrier keeps the game more interesting. Giving it all away...IMO lessens the game and deters folks from trying to earn things...

But that's not your post. You want them to farm gold elsewhere and buy the motifs off you. If you had started a post that all dlc dungeon motifs should be bind on pickup, then you get to make the "earn it" claim.

This, DLC dungeon motifs is an way for good groups to get gold.
Its lots of other ways to get gold, anything from farming stuff to flipping the marked but just doing dungeon / trials don't give much revenue in it self as everything is locked so motifs is an way to solve this.

Colecovision · November 2018

concegual wrote: »

I would say somethings should be harder to achieve simply to keep that carrot dangled out in front us us give us something to work for... That one thing that in that moment drives us to log in...makes us ponder research... work to figure out how in the hell do I get passed that one boss or encounter etc... I know we all play for different reasons...but i prefer a challenge to an easy task i'd rather fail trying hard then receive the reward simply because i showed up...If there were no more challenges in a game and I were handed all the rewards I'd cancel my sub and go find a game which offered challenge. To be honest i haven't completed my fang lair or scalecaller motif's yet i'm close but not complete...I have sold many copies of one's I already had...But i would rather earn then then be handed them for queuing a random FG1. To each their own and like the name of the post says...I full accept i'm in the minority.

But you're not in the minority. You made your opinion clear when you sold the motifs. You think it's perfectly fine for casuals to have access to DLC dungeon motifs, without clearing the content. You were their actual path to getting the motifs by gathering flowers and grinding dolmen. It wasn't those of us that can't do dungeons with group mechanics. For some reason you are trying to distance yourself now that the profit is gone. I don't get it, but I know for sure it's not an old school gaming motivation.

Again, old school gaming doesn't have motifs at all. Old school is starting over without checkpoints. Old school gaming is having a sore neck from sitting on the floor since the cords were too short to sit on the couch. Old school gaming is washing cars all day for 5 lives in dragon's lair.

Locking up weapons behind vma has a very old school feel to me. Locking up motifs behind group content doesn't strike me as old school in the least.