Buff Monster Sets to Compete with Blood Spawn-PvP focused

IAVITNI · November 2018

About me:

Let me preface this discussion by stating that I have 1 character of every class in both mag and stam and that, outside of magblade, I regularly play each class at least once every 30 days in order to get T3 rewards. As a purely solo player, this actually amounts to a lot of time since I do not collect a lot of defensive or offensive ticks. It would be safe to say that 80k of the 100k AP minimum that I make is purely from killing other players. So while 100k AP is a relatively small amount, the manner in which it is earned is relatively slow, and not just because of Cyrodil lag. Especially with the current barren/complete zergfest state of PvP [PS4 NA], I spend quite a lot of time fighting in various types of situations on each class. /credentials

Of the 9 sub-classes that I play, 4 use Blood Spawn; magDK, stamDK, stamSorc and stamDen. My stamPlar and stamNB would also be in Blood Spawn if not for the simple fact that I don't want all my characters to run the same set. In fact, I had made it a point to not have a single set (including Master Bow, Willpower etc.) used in more than 1 build and still be competitive within the solo scene, with each class performing at similar levels, even after accounting my varied skill/experience amongst classes. Despite my reluctance, I eventually had to concede to using Blood Spawn on several characters. This is the only set I have had to compromise on.

Now let me be VERY clear and state that this preference for Blood Spawn is 100% NOT because the set is over performing. Rather, the prevalence of Blood Spawn for myself and I [rightly] presume other solo players is that there is no valid alternative that falls into a similar niche. What makes Blood Spawn great is not the fact that it provides ultimate nor the fact that it provides strong mitigation with solid uptime. It is the combination of the two, but not for the specific benefits themselves, but rather because the set serves as a hybrid option that provides both offensive and defensive benefits, something that solo builds are built around, especially after all the direct/indirect nerfs to the play style. The values of the following sets are simply not up to par due to mechanics or numbers.

Ice Heart
Now I would LOVE to run this set on my magPlar for solo open world, but the properties of PvP shields coupled with the built in cooldown and the mechanics of the set make it useless for solo PvP. Buffing this set to enable it to actually provide benefit after a single GCD would bump diversity. Giving the 1 pc bonus both weapon and spell crit would also help it compete with Blood Spawn. With the latest shield changes, the set has more value, but the cold damage should persist after the shield goes down (does not need to be full 6 seconds, maybe 1 second after shield breaks) or have a high chance to inflict Chill.

Maw of the Infernal
A potentially great set if it wasn't for the fact that the proc rate was so abysmal. The Daedroth damage is fine (I believe targeting was fixed) and the LoS would be very useful if the thing proc'd more than once a fight. I have near perfect weaving and the set still does not proc often enough. The uptime simply is not where it needs to be. Also, if we could get this to work with natures embrace <333333

Scourge Harvester
Honestly, this isn't a bad set. I think it just has such a bad stigma. I haven't tested this set in several patches. Maaaaaybe bump the damage/healing slightly as I believe it [healing] is reduced by Battle Spirit twice. Need to test.

Shadowrend
Shadowrend is a solid set. A little too niche imo but solid none the less.

Thurvokuhn
A very interesting set. Great for group play. Maybe have the effect linger for a duration inversely-based on the size of the pool. The poison damage is useless. A snare would be more beneficial. Not much experience using the set, but playing against it is very easy and seems like the set under-performs. If the set is performing well at a Group v Group level than please disregard.

Obviously, the alternative is to build slightly more tanky/glass with the rest of the gear and compensate with the monster helm. This is a valid option for mag classes. One could even slot Za'an if they're ok with a set outputting more damage than a single player can do within a small time frame with a single proc, even as a 50k hp tank with 2 spell damage and 2 defensive sets. However, stam proc sets are virtually useless in PvP. The counter-play, while necessary, is too easy to accomplish and severely diminishes the value of these sets.

Especially from a stam perspective, many of these sets need to be brought up in terms of performance.

Introducing stam oriented monster sets that follow the same approach as Blood Spawn would also go a long way.

Hochstapler · November 2018

You are right about the reason why Bloodspawn is so popular.
It's one of the very few sets that provides 2 different benefits, something that is normally reserved for 5 sets.( like Bahraha's curse for example )
Earthgore is another one that both burst heals and cleanses and it's a group AoE!
It's very hard to beat that if your goal is to equip defensive/utility monster set.

Generally I like monster sets, they add flavor and fun to my gaming and I wouldn't mind making more of them viable for PVP.
Many consider monster sets and all DD procing sets cheese but not me, I like them and will continue testing any set I can get my hands on, variety is very important to me, because I get bored fast from same old.

Jimmy_The_Fixer · November 2018

Some boring hundings/julianos-style l options could be neat, something that just gives flat stats but is more efficient than just using mismatched 1pieces.

Could probably introduce them at low level to teach new players early that head and shoulder are "special" slots and to give newly capped players an option for monster sets before having to play the undaunted slot machine.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave · November 2018

I really like some of the ideas you have put in and you make many solid points regarding certain monster sets.

Thurvokun i have only seen used effectively with multiple people running it and overlaying in an area the enemy has to be (on flags in keeps for example). A monster set shouldnot rely on overlaying 3 or more of it.

Malubeth has this horrid stigma because of how broken it used to be with Magplar builds or on Tanky DK's. You now get the same buff from the Blackrose Resto just for casting ward ally or healing ward so it's had its territory infringed on with an easier proc condition.

Kanar · November 2018

Why not just use Bloodspawn? Seriously, you (should) know going down this path with zos devs is not a good idea.

lucky_Sage · November 2018

honestly im waiting for a new sustain set that gives both mag&stam that's not random like engine guardian.

but honestly Bloodspawn isn't OP its just solid and balanced and a lot of others just underperform are are very niche.
then some could be strong for pvp but I ruined by battle spirit like iceheart.

Sparr0w · November 2018

Inb4 bloodspawn nerf

Swomp23 · November 2018

I'm a little surprised that you didn't mention Troll King.

I know (from our previous discussion) that you don't like this set because you consider it a crutch, but in a post comparing monster sets effectiveness, I still think you should have mentioned it.

IMO, and from what I've seen in here, it may be the only contender with Bloodspawn when it comes to best, most useful monster set. Even if it is purely defensive, it's proc is so good, I'd say it as a very good alternative for solo players.

That being said, your input is very appreciated once again. It's refreshing to see a nuanced, thoughtful post on this forum from times to times.

Ragnarock41 · November 2018

Troll king is already on par or even better.
The balorgh is also up there aswell for how potent it can be.

While I agree many monster sets are just weaker than BS, lets not forget BS only and only benefits the user and does not help the group. Knowing zos complaining about it will result with a pointless nerf and that would kill the set cause troll king is already better when you dont need the sustain.

Bs is strong and balanced at the same time imho.

IAVITNI · November 2018

Swomp23 wrote: »

I'm a little surprised that you didn't mention Troll King.

I know (from our previous discussion) that you don't like this set because you consider it a crutch, but in a post comparing monster sets effectiveness, I still think you should have mentioned it.

IMO, and from what I've seen in here, it may be the only contender with Bloodspawn when it comes to best, most useful monster set. Even if it is purely defensive, it's proc is so good, I'd say it as a very good alternative for solo players.

That being said, your input is very appreciated once again. It's refreshing to see a nuanced, thoughtful post on this forum from times to times.

I didn't include it because it does not fall into the same category as Blood Spawn or the other sets I mentioned. I classify it as a purely defensive set, and so technically does not compete with Blood Spawn. You would slot the two for different reasons, albeit with some overlap. All other sets listed also provide an offensive component on top of a defensive one. This post is about "hybrid" monster sets, which Troll King is not.

Don't get me wrong. Troll King is a great set and I've used it on every stam class barring warden. I was actually hard pressed not to include it because it is pretty much the only real contender with blood spawn. I just advise newer PvP players to steer clear of it until they have a firm understanding of PvP mechanics. I currently use it on my stamplar (built before Murkmire). Case and point, the reason I use Troll King on stamplar is because it is my worst stam class and I need the crutch, I can barely 1v3 without it and I get dropped in duels against known duelists. I don't "like" newer players running Troll King because it is a hard carry. For vet players, it's a broken set. If, for example in our previous discussion you had said you were a vet PvP player and were considering Troll King over x set, the conversation would have been very different and biased in favour of Troll King.

**Building around Troll King is different (ex. heavy armor no Rally), but for newer players, sets like Troll King prevent them from learning mechanics, which is bad for the overall health of the game.

Kanar wrote: »

Why not just use Bloodspawn? Seriously, you (should) know going down this path with zos devs is not a good idea.

I do use Blood Spawn. On 4 out of 9 subclasses. And I know I shouldn't be discussing balanced sets, but the latest communications from ZoS suggest they are going to enter a maintenance mode (as opposed to new DLCs) for a bit. I think it would be a good time to fine-tune slightly underperforming sets.

Last time they nerfed Blood Spawn by 1 ultimate point. I think I'll take the risk. But anyone could see Blood Spawn is not over-performing, and that includes ZoS (inb4 my faith is punished). Blood Spawn is the Shacklebreaker of Monster Sets. Besides, with sets like Za'ans and Earthgore and even Troll King (in group play), any complaints about BS will be drowned out.

lucky_Sage wrote: »

honestly im waiting for a new sustain set that gives both mag&stam that's not random like engine guardian.

but honestly Bloodspawn isn't OP its just solid and balanced and a lot of others just underperform are are very niche.
then some could be strong for pvp but I ruined by battle spirit like iceheart.

100% agree

My personal wish list is some sort of mobility Monster Set.

Something like 1 pc: 129 Magicka Recovery + 129 Stamina Recovery 2 pc: Gain Immovability and Major Expedition for 3 seconds after using an Ultimate

Useful for any form of PvP and mirrors 1 pc domi

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

Some boring hundings/julianos-style l options could be neat, something that just gives flat stats but is more efficient than just using mismatched 1pieces.

Could probably introduce them at low level to teach new players early that head and shoulder are "special" slots and to give newly capped players an option for monster sets before having to play the undaunted slot machine.

Honestly I love that idea. If I don't want to run Blood Spawn I usually go 1 Chudan+1 Lord Warden. Although that kind of infringes on Willpower/Agility as stat sticks. That's another topic though. 3 pc jewelry sets are just...brb writing a new thread

LeHarrt91 · November 2018

Iceheart does need a little bit of a rework, and as has been said its damage decoupled from shield. But i would like another ice damage Monster set (single shoulderm something akin to Skoria lol)

Vapirko · November 2018

Dammit, we don’t drag sets that are performing well into adjustment threads, everyone knows that. Incoming BS nerf.

LeHarrt91 · November 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

Dammit, we don’t drag sets that are performing well into adjustment threads, everyone knows that. Incoming BS nerf.

I hope not, Bloodspawn is a well made set.

TheYKcid · November 2018

You know ZOS is going to see this and just nerf Bspawn, right?

CyrusArya · November 2018

Bloodspawn is a very well rounded set, which is what makes it valuable in small scale PvP- an environment where the player is largely responsible for their own damage, healing, and survivability. But it is a jack of all trades master of none set. For specific focuses, wether to strictly deal damage or stay alive, there are better options out there. Furthermore, it’s a set that while strong doesn’t play the game for the player. Rather it provides the tools to perform at a higher level. That resist and ulti gen isn’t gonna use itself. Which is why I doubt this set will ever get nerfed.

Overall, while strong, I think it’s on par with the the other tier one monster sets which (imo) are:

Skoria, Troll King, Pirate Skeleton, Shadowrend, Earthgore, Thorvuken, and Zaan.

Personally I’d rather fight someone in Bloodspawn than TK, Pirate Skeleton, or Shadowrend any day. Earthgore and Thorvuken are also total game changer in a group setting whereas Bloodspawn is much more self-buff focused. So with that being the case I honestly don’t see it as being definitely the best set, just a solid one.

lucky_Sage · November 2018

bloodspawn was nerfed a while ago it use o to give more ult back which I never understood why because it wasn't OP its just a good balanced set and was jusr slighter better prenerf