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Frost Staves and their future.
ESO_Nightingale
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Hello Everyone!
Ill just get right into my post today.
To many people, theme is important Ice Dps is something that has been desired for so very long. When I mean “Ice dps” I don’t exactly mean just snaring and ccing but i am talking about those who desire it for pve dps. There are those of you out there who don’t care. There are those of you out there who say that snares and immobilisations are cancer. This is a problem known at the moment and it’s not just warden who does it. DKs also play around with immobilisations, stuns and snares and i suspect there could be more Reflective Plates out there on the horizon. Today this isn’t about that. Today is about the future of the ice staff and how it can function as both tanking AND dps in one weapon.
There are people who seek to use the Ice Staff as a DPS weapon because they enjoy it as a defensive alternative to a flame staff or shock staff and there are people who also seek to use the Ice Staff as a Primary Tanking weapon and to maybe also use the Ice staff as a backbar too as is also commonly done with the sword and shield. SnB/Ice Staff is the best combination for tanking as the 2 weapons cancel each other's weaknesses. I am not disputing this. But sometimes people just want to have fun options. People have said things such as “why do you even care? Ice staff is a good tanking weapon”. And the thing is, is that it’s not there just yet. It lacks polish such as a reliable taunt. One that has a cast time of 2 seconds is inefficient but the biggest problem is that it forces ice dps users not to take it in pve. While it costs nothing or any skill slots, its inefficient at best. It also lacks an essential debuff to the group! Major Fracture! Others have tried to dispute this and said “what about Noxious Breath, Subterranean Assault and Mark Target and Night Mother’s Gaze or Poisons” well there are problems with all of these ideas. Let’s go through them so i can dispute this properly
Why using Major Fracture sources other than Pierce Armor, is bad as a tank.
Noxious Breath: this skill is the best on the list for this job. However. There is one simple problem. Engulfing Flames is the other morph and one of the best buff tools in the game that a tank provides around 9% more flame damage is too good to pass up. (I am NOT encouraging a nerf to this.)
Subterranean assault: this is an annoying tool to upkeep on a tank. As you have to weave it in with your other tanking skills and constantly re apply it and it is not really a skill that a tank would be looking to use. This is going to be harder on your sustain than it needs to be. And it is only doing one real job with this. Applying major fracture. It also takes time to come up so if you miss an enemy with it you need to wait 3 more seconds to apply it, this could mean life or death in some dungeons or even score if you care about that.
Mark Target: this skill is pretty interesting but its big problem is that it is limited to one target. I feel as if this might be the only downside to this skill.
Night Mother’s Gaze:
This is a stamina set, it applies
(2 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(4 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(5 items) When you deal Critical Damage, you reduce the enemy's Physical Resistance by 5280 for 6 seconds.
This is bad for several reasons,
1: it gives no maximum stamina which may be helpful enough to a tank to use.
2: a tank doesn’t spec into Weapon Crit
3: the proc chance(requirement is crit which is a proc chance) is just that. A proc chance. This is bad for an effect that tanks should be 100% applying straight away.
Poison: these stop really essential enchantments from proccing at all! No! They also have a proc chance which stops them from applying it straight away.
Zenimax Online Studios wants the weapon to be for tanking, and a large amount of us want it to be for DPS, I am sorry but I just can’t say that they will change this vision because I don’t know.
But, what I can do is suggest a solution to this problem that is a compromise between community and developer.
What do I suggest?
For now, I would suggest making changes to a passive and a skill.
Tri Focus:
Let’s be real, you might have seen this one coming! But as it stands right now, the Ice Staff’s special effect is:
Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attack taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 805 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking cost Magicka instead of Stamina
Depending on how you look at it, there are 2 things wrong with this Passive. Let’s go through this in order.
Heavy Attack Taunt: there are aspects about this that are good and bad. For one it’s an interesting idea, to make the heavy attack do something useful to keep a skill slot free while also restoring some max magicka. While it isn't the worst thing ever, it's also not too amazing either. We can do it better, while also giving ice dps a reason to use the passive. Ice dps do their best to exist but not taking a passive because it is detrimental to your group’s wellbeing? What if you run out of magicka? Ok you’re going to heavy attack… but you can’t because you will make the tanks job harder, maybe you will draw the wrong kinds of attention toward yourself. Taking passives is supposed to be beneficial.
Shield:
Why is the shield so small? What is the reason for this? It can block 1, maybe 2 trash mob hits. Why have a shield at all if it is that little and insignificant?
What do I suggest to do to the passive?:
I suggest removing the Taunt from the heavy attack and giving the enemy a small reduction to both armor and spell resistance, separated from major/minor breach and fracture. 1000 which is smaller than major breach/fracture but will still gain a noticeable difference and is also smaller than minor breach/fracture. This now means that the tank can heavy attack an enemy to reduce their resistances further for the group’s benefit. But, not only that. It also means that Ice Dps can contribute to a fight with a heavy attack on a boss or a player to assist their groups and their own DPS output. I would also increase the strength of the personal shield by 2x to make the passive do a little more than block 1-2 hits.
HOWEVER If a seperate amount of reduction is too much, being able to stack this with minor and major, what about giving straight up minor breach and fracture?
How will this look?:
Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 805 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.
1:Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks lower a target’s Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 1000 for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1610 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.
OR:
2:Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks inflict the target with Minor Fracture and Minor Breach, reducing their Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 1320 for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1610 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.
It just works! Even thematically, Ice can dent the armor if solid enough or freeze it making it more brittle!
Notes: damage shield number should be base and not scaling off bastion or anything else. For this example of the tooltip. It would in reality scale like it normaly does.
Elemental Susceptibility:
I asked people about this skill in my past few months of concocting ideas to fix ice whether they have EVER heard about this skill. I mostly got confused questions or when I talked about my ideas they would say “what skill?” or something to that effect.
Well this skill is the other morph to Elemental Drain. To those who don’t know
Send the elements to sap an enemy's defenses, afflicting them with Major Breach for 21 seconds, reducing their Spell Resistance by 5280
Any damage you deal to the enemy refreshes the effect's duration.
So right off the bat, I see a whole lot of nothing.
Let’s go through the problems with this skill:
1: This skill ONLY applies Major Breach.
2: This skill is outclassed by its other morph SEVERELY. When we look at Elemental Drain, that skill gives us a great way to recover magicka to all allies! and is used on a large amount of healers and tanks who use staves.
3: This skill is not even useful for target dummies. Allies can throw elemental drain on a target dummy and you can get magicka back which can be really neat. But if they slot Susceptibility, they lose out on a really easy to apply FREE SKILL that gives magicka back. If you slot it you waste a slot on a skill that applies an effect applied by much better sources that have damage or other effects that are really useful. I cannot stress enough how much that this skill is useless.
What do i suggest to do to this skill?:
There are 2 Ideas i could take for this skill.
1(Basic):
Add Major Fracture and Taunt to the skill and remove the current morph effect. This will make the skill a hybrid of Inner Rage and Pierce Armor that does no damage but costs nothing to cast. In the event that this becomes too powerful you can add a cost of 2700 magicka to the skill or reduce the overall time to 10 seconds duration.
Elemental Susceptibility:
Send the elements to sap an enemy's defenses, Taunting them and afflicting them with Major Breach and Major Fracture for 21 seconds, reducing their Spell Resistance by 5280 and Physical Resistance by 5280
2(Advanced):
This idea is much harder to implement and takes much longer, however it has the potential to provide a lot to a magdps depending on what is given to it.
Elemental Susceptibility:
Grants bonus effects based on the element used:
Flame Susceptibility could perhaps do something to single targets and give the target major breach
Shock Susceptibility: could debuff a large group
Frost Susceptibility: would be given the basic idea listed above
(Send the elements to sap an enemy's defenses, Taunting them and afflicting them with Major Breach and Major Fracture for 21 seconds, reducing their Spell Resistance by 5280 and Physical Resistance by 5280.)
I understand that homogenizing is bad with this being a ranged and costless pierce armor, it's also important to see that people want to use this as a primary tank weapon. And without major fracture and a great taunt it's eating sword and shield’s dust as a primary tank weapon. Providing these things and giving tanks better options for ranged taunting is a need. Once these are provided to the ice staff, then the 2 can begin to really shine as 2 weapons filling the same role in a different way as you open up options for more skills and more interesting builds in the future.
Not everyone is going to agree with me. And that is inevitable. This is all my opinion after all. If your intention was to make a rude comment, Instead think to yourself:
“if i had to keep with ZoS’s Vision for the ice staff and please the community, what would i do to solve the problem?”
At the end of the day i want this game to be much better than what it is at the moment. You may think what i have said is flawed. And it most likely is in some parts. But the truth at the moment is that, ice staves? Are nothing more than a tank backbar in pve and a rooting tool in pvp or some fun RP weapon. We need to open this weapon up for more opportunities in the future so people feel satisfied that they chose the effective weapon for the job. And to help this thing be a viable option as a DPS staff in pve.
This is probably just the start. Or it might be the end. So if we sit here and say nothing, what is going to happen? Nothing. It is better to try than to give up.
TL:DR?
Remove taunt from tri focus passive and move it to elemental susceptibility along with major fracture. And add a resistance reduction debuff to the heavy attack in its place. Double the strength of the passive shield granted too.
End notes:
I hope I didn't come off too poorly. I mostly expect angry comments nowadays. I don't know everything but I have been talking about this stuff for the past 5+ months pretty much every day and a lot of what i know here is from the community. I am very active and passionate in the warden discord and I love talking about Ice and what it could be! A lot of what I do is talking about under used skills and bad skills along with talking about the frost staff skills. But I mostly talk about Winter's Embrace skills. Please let me know if you want me to word something a little differently so you can understand or so I can edit my wording to sound less hostile(if there is any in there). I don't mean to be rude.
Edited by ESO_Nightingale on November 27, 2018 11:51PM Ill just get right into my post today.
To many people, theme is important Ice Dps is something that has been desired for so very long. When I mean “Ice dps” I don’t exactly mean just snaring and ccing but i am talking about those who desire it for pve dps. There are those of you out there who don’t care. There are those of you out there who say that snares and immobilisations are cancer. This is a problem known at the moment and it’s not just warden who does it. DKs also play around with immobilisations, stuns and snares and i suspect there could be more Reflective Plates out there on the horizon. Today this isn’t about that. Today is about the future of the ice staff and how it can function as both tanking AND dps in one weapon.
There are people who seek to use the Ice Staff as a DPS weapon because they enjoy it as a defensive alternative to a flame staff or shock staff and there are people who also seek to use the Ice Staff as a Primary Tanking weapon and to maybe also use the Ice staff as a backbar too as is also commonly done with the sword and shield. SnB/Ice Staff is the best combination for tanking as the 2 weapons cancel each other's weaknesses. I am not disputing this. But sometimes people just want to have fun options. People have said things such as “why do you even care? Ice staff is a good tanking weapon”. And the thing is, is that it’s not there just yet. It lacks polish such as a reliable taunt. One that has a cast time of 2 seconds is inefficient but the biggest problem is that it forces ice dps users not to take it in pve. While it costs nothing or any skill slots, its inefficient at best. It also lacks an essential debuff to the group! Major Fracture! Others have tried to dispute this and said “what about Noxious Breath, Subterranean Assault and Mark Target and Night Mother’s Gaze or Poisons” well there are problems with all of these ideas. Let’s go through them so i can dispute this properly
Why using Major Fracture sources other than Pierce Armor, is bad as a tank.
Noxious Breath: this skill is the best on the list for this job. However. There is one simple problem. Engulfing Flames is the other morph and one of the best buff tools in the game that a tank provides around 9% more flame damage is too good to pass up. (I am NOT encouraging a nerf to this.)
Subterranean assault: this is an annoying tool to upkeep on a tank. As you have to weave it in with your other tanking skills and constantly re apply it and it is not really a skill that a tank would be looking to use. This is going to be harder on your sustain than it needs to be. And it is only doing one real job with this. Applying major fracture. It also takes time to come up so if you miss an enemy with it you need to wait 3 more seconds to apply it, this could mean life or death in some dungeons or even score if you care about that.
Mark Target: this skill is pretty interesting but its big problem is that it is limited to one target. I feel as if this might be the only downside to this skill.
Night Mother’s Gaze:
This is a stamina set, it applies
(2 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(4 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(5 items) When you deal Critical Damage, you reduce the enemy's Physical Resistance by 5280 for 6 seconds.
This is bad for several reasons,
1: it gives no maximum stamina which may be helpful enough to a tank to use.
2: a tank doesn’t spec into Weapon Crit
3: the proc chance(requirement is crit which is a proc chance) is just that. A proc chance. This is bad for an effect that tanks should be 100% applying straight away.
Poison: these stop really essential enchantments from proccing at all! No! They also have a proc chance which stops them from applying it straight away.
Zenimax Online Studios wants the weapon to be for tanking, and a large amount of us want it to be for DPS, I am sorry but I just can’t say that they will change this vision because I don’t know.
But, what I can do is suggest a solution to this problem that is a compromise between community and developer.
What do I suggest?
For now, I would suggest making changes to a passive and a skill.
Tri Focus:
Let’s be real, you might have seen this one coming! But as it stands right now, the Ice Staff’s special effect is:
Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attack taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 805 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking cost Magicka instead of Stamina
Depending on how you look at it, there are 2 things wrong with this Passive. Let’s go through this in order.
Heavy Attack Taunt: there are aspects about this that are good and bad. For one it’s an interesting idea, to make the heavy attack do something useful to keep a skill slot free while also restoring some max magicka. While it isn't the worst thing ever, it's also not too amazing either. We can do it better, while also giving ice dps a reason to use the passive. Ice dps do their best to exist but not taking a passive because it is detrimental to your group’s wellbeing? What if you run out of magicka? Ok you’re going to heavy attack… but you can’t because you will make the tanks job harder, maybe you will draw the wrong kinds of attention toward yourself. Taking passives is supposed to be beneficial.
Shield:
Why is the shield so small? What is the reason for this? It can block 1, maybe 2 trash mob hits. Why have a shield at all if it is that little and insignificant?
What do I suggest to do to the passive?:
I suggest removing the Taunt from the heavy attack and giving the enemy a small reduction to both armor and spell resistance, separated from major/minor breach and fracture. 1000 which is smaller than major breach/fracture but will still gain a noticeable difference and is also smaller than minor breach/fracture. This now means that the tank can heavy attack an enemy to reduce their resistances further for the group’s benefit. But, not only that. It also means that Ice Dps can contribute to a fight with a heavy attack on a boss or a player to assist their groups and their own DPS output. I would also increase the strength of the personal shield by 2x to make the passive do a little more than block 1-2 hits.
HOWEVER If a seperate amount of reduction is too much, being able to stack this with minor and major, what about giving straight up minor breach and fracture?
How will this look?:
Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 805 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.
1:Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks lower a target’s Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 1000 for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1610 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.
OR:
2:Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks inflict the target with Minor Fracture and Minor Breach, reducing their Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 1320 for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1610 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.
It just works! Even thematically, Ice can dent the armor if solid enough or freeze it making it more brittle!
Notes: damage shield number should be base and not scaling off bastion or anything else. For this example of the tooltip. It would in reality scale like it normaly does.
Elemental Susceptibility:
I asked people about this skill in my past few months of concocting ideas to fix ice whether they have EVER heard about this skill. I mostly got confused questions or when I talked about my ideas they would say “what skill?” or something to that effect.
Well this skill is the other morph to Elemental Drain. To those who don’t know
Send the elements to sap an enemy's defenses, afflicting them with Major Breach for 21 seconds, reducing their Spell Resistance by 5280
Any damage you deal to the enemy refreshes the effect's duration.
So right off the bat, I see a whole lot of nothing.
Let’s go through the problems with this skill:
1: This skill ONLY applies Major Breach.
2: This skill is outclassed by its other morph SEVERELY. When we look at Elemental Drain, that skill gives us a great way to recover magicka to all allies! and is used on a large amount of healers and tanks who use staves.
3: This skill is not even useful for target dummies. Allies can throw elemental drain on a target dummy and you can get magicka back which can be really neat. But if they slot Susceptibility, they lose out on a really easy to apply FREE SKILL that gives magicka back. If you slot it you waste a slot on a skill that applies an effect applied by much better sources that have damage or other effects that are really useful. I cannot stress enough how much that this skill is useless.
What do i suggest to do to this skill?:
There are 2 Ideas i could take for this skill.
1(Basic):
Add Major Fracture and Taunt to the skill and remove the current morph effect. This will make the skill a hybrid of Inner Rage and Pierce Armor that does no damage but costs nothing to cast. In the event that this becomes too powerful you can add a cost of 2700 magicka to the skill or reduce the overall time to 10 seconds duration.
Elemental Susceptibility:
Send the elements to sap an enemy's defenses, Taunting them and afflicting them with Major Breach and Major Fracture for 21 seconds, reducing their Spell Resistance by 5280 and Physical Resistance by 5280
2(Advanced):
This idea is much harder to implement and takes much longer, however it has the potential to provide a lot to a magdps depending on what is given to it.
Elemental Susceptibility:
Grants bonus effects based on the element used:
Flame Susceptibility could perhaps do something to single targets and give the target major breach
Shock Susceptibility: could debuff a large group
Frost Susceptibility: would be given the basic idea listed above
(Send the elements to sap an enemy's defenses, Taunting them and afflicting them with Major Breach and Major Fracture for 21 seconds, reducing their Spell Resistance by 5280 and Physical Resistance by 5280.)
I understand that homogenizing is bad with this being a ranged and costless pierce armor, it's also important to see that people want to use this as a primary tank weapon. And without major fracture and a great taunt it's eating sword and shield’s dust as a primary tank weapon. Providing these things and giving tanks better options for ranged taunting is a need. Once these are provided to the ice staff, then the 2 can begin to really shine as 2 weapons filling the same role in a different way as you open up options for more skills and more interesting builds in the future.
Not everyone is going to agree with me. And that is inevitable. This is all my opinion after all. If your intention was to make a rude comment, Instead think to yourself:
“if i had to keep with ZoS’s Vision for the ice staff and please the community, what would i do to solve the problem?”
At the end of the day i want this game to be much better than what it is at the moment. You may think what i have said is flawed. And it most likely is in some parts. But the truth at the moment is that, ice staves? Are nothing more than a tank backbar in pve and a rooting tool in pvp or some fun RP weapon. We need to open this weapon up for more opportunities in the future so people feel satisfied that they chose the effective weapon for the job. And to help this thing be a viable option as a DPS staff in pve.
This is probably just the start. Or it might be the end. So if we sit here and say nothing, what is going to happen? Nothing. It is better to try than to give up.
TL:DR?
Remove taunt from tri focus passive and move it to elemental susceptibility along with major fracture. And add a resistance reduction debuff to the heavy attack in its place. Double the strength of the passive shield granted too.
End notes:
I hope I didn't come off too poorly. I mostly expect angry comments nowadays. I don't know everything but I have been talking about this stuff for the past 5+ months pretty much every day and a lot of what i know here is from the community. I am very active and passionate in the warden discord and I love talking about Ice and what it could be! A lot of what I do is talking about under used skills and bad skills along with talking about the frost staff skills. But I mostly talk about Winter's Embrace skills. Please let me know if you want me to word something a little differently so you can understand or so I can edit my wording to sound less hostile(if there is any in there). I don't mean to be rude.
PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
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Dottzgaming✭✭✭✭✭+1 to this, really like the proposed changes you got here man
This type of change to frost (and ele susceptibility) would not only benefit frost staves as a tank weapon and make them more interesting, which seems to be the direction ZoS wants to go with them, but these changes to frost would also make those staves a bit more beneficial from a damage dealers perspective. Wouldnt be as good as fire and shock for dps - which is okay - but theyd be more viable than they currently are!9 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I like the heavy attack changes, but there is one important thing to mention.Notes: damage shield number should be base and not scaling off bastion or anything else.
Currently, the ice staff heavy shield scales off of health. Not scaling off that directly changes course from what ZOS set out to do with damage shields less patch. Their vision is to make them more useful to tanks, but less useful to dps. I think this particular change would be a hard sell to ZOS.
Secondly, regarding the discussion of major fracture... Your dps may already be providing it for you. Any meta group in the game is fielding a stam nightblade (or three). Their spammable provides some 10-15 seconds of fracture. If there is a warden in your group, there's no chance they're not running sub.
You mention that others wish to take this as their main tanking weapon, and that's fine. I'm not sold as to why ice staves have to be "the complete package" when sword and shield is not. Logically you agree that sword and board is not a complete package, as you state in your early ideas that sword AND ice staff is possibly the best setup. The reason why this is though is because they cover each other's deficiencies.
To put it another why, why even use sword another and shield if maim, fracture/breach, and taunt came from a weapon that also had a ranged interupt, a fantastic backbar enchant proccing ability that doubled ability a snare and root (and aoe maim), and and free to cost skill that returns your blocking resource?
There'd be no reason at all, regarding efficacy.4 -
Joosef_Kivikilpi✭✭✭✭ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Hello Everyone!
Ill just get right into my post today.
To many people, theme is important Ice Dps is something people have called out for, for a very long time it has been desired for so very long. When I mean “Ice dps” I don’t exactly mean just snaring and ccing. But something better as a whole for pve ice dps and, to some extent, PvP Ice Dps too. There are those of you out there who don’t care. There are those of you out there who say that snares and immobilisations are cancer. This is a problem known at the moment and it’s not just warden who does it. DKs also play around with immobilisations, stuns and snares and i suspect there could be more Reflective Plates out there on the horizon. Today this isn’t about that. Today is about the future of the ice staff and how it can function as both tanking AND dps.
There are people who seek to use the Ice Staff as a DPS weapon because they enjoy it and there are people who seek to use the Ice Staff as a Primary Tanking weapon and to maybe also use the Ice staff as a backbar too as is also commonly done with the sword and shield. SnB/Ice Staff is the best combination for tanking. I am not disputing this. But sometimes people just want to have a fun option. People have said things such as “why do you even care? Ice staff is a good tanking weapon”. And the thing is, is that it’s not there just yet. It lacks polish such as a reliable taunt. One that has a cast time of 2 seconds is inefficient. While it costs nothing or any skill slots, its inefficient at best. It also lacks an essential debuff to the group! Major Fracture! Others have tried to dispute this and said “what about Noxious Breath, Subterranean Assault and Mark Target and Night Mother’s Gaze or Poisons” well there are problems with all of these ideas. Let’s go through them
Noxious Breath: this skill is the best on the list for this job. However. There is one simple problem. Engulfing Flames is the other morph and one of the best buff tools in the game that a tank provides around 9% more flame damage is too good to pass up. (I am NOT encouraging a nerf to this.)
Subterranean assault: this is an annoying tool to upkeep on a tank. As you have to weave it in with your other tanking skills and constantly re apply it and it is not really a skill that a tank would be looking to use. This is going to be harder on your sustain than it needs to be. And it is only doing one real job with this. Applying major fracture. It also takes time to come up so if you miss an enemy with it you need to wait 3 more seconds to apply it, this could mean life or death in some dungeons or even score if you care about that.
Mark Target: this skill is pretty interesting but its big problem is that it is limited to one target. I feel as if this might be the only downside to this skill.
Night Mother’s Gaze:
This is a stamina set, it applies
(2 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(4 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(5 items) When you deal Critical Damage, you reduce the enemy's Physical Resistance by 5280 for 6 seconds.
This is bad for several reasons,
1: it gives no maximum stamina which may be helpful enough to a tank to use.
2: a tank doesn’t spec into Weapon Crit
3: the proc chance(requirement is crit which is a proc chance) is just that. A proc chance. This is bad for an effect that tanks should be 100% applying straight away.
Poison: these stop really essential enchantments from proccing at all! No! They also have a proc chance which stops them from applying it straight away.
Zenimax Online Studios wants the weapon to be for tanking, and a large amount of us want it to be for DPS, I am sorry but I just can’t say that they will change this vision because I don’t know.
But, what I can do is suggest a solution to this problem that is a compromise between community and developer.
What do I suggest?
For now, I would suggest making changes to a passive and a skill.
Tri Focus:
Let’s be real, you might have seen this one coming! But as it stands right now, the Ice Staff’s special effect is:
Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attack taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 805 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking cost Magicka instead of Stamina
Depending on how you look at it, there are 2 things wrong with this Passive. Let’s go through this in order.
Heavy Attack Taunt: there are aspects about this that are good and bad. For one it’s an interesting idea, to make the heavy attack do something useful to keep a skill slot free while also restoring some max magicka. While it isn't the worst thing ever, it's also not too amazing either. We can do it better, while also giving ice dps a reason to use the passive. Ice dps do their best to exist but not taking a passive because it is detrimental to your group’s wellbeing? What if you run out of magicka? Ok you’re going to heavy attack… but you can’t because you will make the tanks job harder, maybe you will draw the wrong kinds of attention toward yourself. Taking passives is supposed to be beneficial.
Shield:
Why is the shield so small? What is the reason for this? It can block 1, maybe 2 trash mob hits. Why have a shield at all if it is that little and insignificant?
What do I suggest to do to the passive?:
I suggest removing the Taunt from the heavy attack and giving the enemy a small reduction to both armor and spell resistance, separated from major/minor breach and fracture. 1000 which is smaller than major breach/fracture but will still gain a noticeable difference and is also smaller than minor breach/fracture. This now means that the tank can heavy attack an enemy to reduce their resistances further for the group’s benefit. But, not only that. It also means that Ice Dps can contribute to a fight with a heavy attack on a boss or a player to assist their groups and their own DPS output. I would also increase the strength of the personal shield by 2x to make the passive do a little more than block 1-2 hits.
HOWEVER If a seperate amount of reduction is too much, being able to stack this with minor and major, what about giving straight up minor breach and fracture?
How will this look?:
Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 805 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.
1:Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks lower a target’s Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 1000 for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1610 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.
OR:
2:Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks inflict the target with Minor Fracture and Minor Breach, reducing their Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 1320 for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1610 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.
It just works! Even thematically, Ice can dent the armor if solid enough or freeze it making it more brittle!
Notes: damage shield number should be base and not scaling off bastion or anything else.
I have felt that Ice Staff users should receive Physical and Spell Penetration buff when using the staff. I mean, when you get cold, a saying is literally "chilled to the bone" --- bitter cold seriously bites through warmth (especially humid cold) and right past your skin. It chills you deep, where you start shivering and can't stop. Believe me - got a taste of it living in Finland for two years - it chills you to the bone when unprepared. The staff should definitely add penetration, or a group debuff of minor fracture and breach to help group. But since Flame gets an 8% single target damage boost, lightning gets 8% AOE damage boost, I think Ice should get a overall lesser buff of 4% damage boost from penetration, affecting both single target and AOE damage--- about 2640 penetration value.
Those are just my thoughts as well. The penetration would also help out the two Ice-damage proc sets available in game- Iceheart and Winterborn- actually deal more of the full damage base of the set proc.7 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »I like the heavy attack changes, but there is one important thing to mention.Notes: damage shield number should be base and not scaling off bastion or anything else.
Currently, the ice staff heavy shield scales off of health. Not scaling off that directly changes course from what ZOS set out to do with damage shields less patch. Their vision is to make them more useful to tanks, but less useful to dps. I think this particular change would be a hard sell to ZOS.
Secondly, regarding the discussion of major fracture... Your dps may already be providing it for you. Any meta group in the game is fielding a stam nightblade (or three). Their spammable provides some 10-15 seconds of fracture. If there is a warden in your group, there's no chance they're not running sub.
You mention that others wish to take this as their main tanking weapon, and that's fine. I'm not sold as to why ice staves have to be "the complete package" when sword and shield is not. Logically you agree that sword and board is not a complete package, as you state in your early ideas that sword AND ice staff is possibly the best setup. The reason why this is though is because they cover each other's deficiencies.
To put it another why, why even use sword another and shield if maim, fracture/breach, and taunt came from a weapon that also had a ranged interupt, a fantastic backbar enchant proccing ability that doubled ability a snare and root (and aoe maim), and and free to cost skill that returns your blocking resource?
There'd be no reason at all, regarding efficacy.
Oh no! i just meant it as it was supposed to be the base number if you have nothing invested into it. Im not looking to change how it actually scales. Ill fix that.
What if your group doesn't have fracture for whatever reason? This is to cover bases
And people have ran 2 sword and shield settups for a long time. This is effective clearly. Where as ice staves arent effective. Ive never seen a fully functional 2 ice staves tank. Sword and shield may not be a full package but nothing quite is because i know deep slash has problems. I listed some possible downsides to the taunt such as it may have a big cost and it may not last as long as piece whatever you would want is your preference. Snb is more defencive with its passives and it has skills that are different to ice's. It has a better ultimate for defence and good ultimate generation. Where as ice staff has a ground aoe slow and potential immobilize along with a ranged interupt.Edited by ESO_Nightingale on November 27, 2018 3:00PMPvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Hello Everyone!
Ill just get right into my post today.
To many people, theme is important Ice Dps is something people have called out for, for a very long time it has been desired for so very long. When I mean “Ice dps” I don’t exactly mean just snaring and ccing. But something better as a whole for pve ice dps and, to some extent, PvP Ice Dps too. There are those of you out there who don’t care. There are those of you out there who say that snares and immobilisations are cancer. This is a problem known at the moment and it’s not just warden who does it. DKs also play around with immobilisations, stuns and snares and i suspect there could be more Reflective Plates out there on the horizon. Today this isn’t about that. Today is about the future of the ice staff and how it can function as both tanking AND dps.
There are people who seek to use the Ice Staff as a DPS weapon because they enjoy it and there are people who seek to use the Ice Staff as a Primary Tanking weapon and to maybe also use the Ice staff as a backbar too as is also commonly done with the sword and shield. SnB/Ice Staff is the best combination for tanking. I am not disputing this. But sometimes people just want to have a fun option. People have said things such as “why do you even care? Ice staff is a good tanking weapon”. And the thing is, is that it’s not there just yet. It lacks polish such as a reliable taunt. One that has a cast time of 2 seconds is inefficient. While it costs nothing or any skill slots, its inefficient at best. It also lacks an essential debuff to the group! Major Fracture! Others have tried to dispute this and said “what about Noxious Breath, Subterranean Assault and Mark Target and Night Mother’s Gaze or Poisons” well there are problems with all of these ideas. Let’s go through them
Noxious Breath: this skill is the best on the list for this job. However. There is one simple problem. Engulfing Flames is the other morph and one of the best buff tools in the game that a tank provides around 9% more flame damage is too good to pass up. (I am NOT encouraging a nerf to this.)
Subterranean assault: this is an annoying tool to upkeep on a tank. As you have to weave it in with your other tanking skills and constantly re apply it and it is not really a skill that a tank would be looking to use. This is going to be harder on your sustain than it needs to be. And it is only doing one real job with this. Applying major fracture. It also takes time to come up so if you miss an enemy with it you need to wait 3 more seconds to apply it, this could mean life or death in some dungeons or even score if you care about that.
Mark Target: this skill is pretty interesting but its big problem is that it is limited to one target. I feel as if this might be the only downside to this skill.
Night Mother’s Gaze:
This is a stamina set, it applies
(2 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(4 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(5 items) When you deal Critical Damage, you reduce the enemy's Physical Resistance by 5280 for 6 seconds.
This is bad for several reasons,
1: it gives no maximum stamina which may be helpful enough to a tank to use.
2: a tank doesn’t spec into Weapon Crit
3: the proc chance(requirement is crit which is a proc chance) is just that. A proc chance. This is bad for an effect that tanks should be 100% applying straight away.
Poison: these stop really essential enchantments from proccing at all! No! They also have a proc chance which stops them from applying it straight away.
Zenimax Online Studios wants the weapon to be for tanking, and a large amount of us want it to be for DPS, I am sorry but I just can’t say that they will change this vision because I don’t know.
But, what I can do is suggest a solution to this problem that is a compromise between community and developer.
What do I suggest?
For now, I would suggest making changes to a passive and a skill.
Tri Focus:
Let’s be real, you might have seen this one coming! But as it stands right now, the Ice Staff’s special effect is:
Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attack taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 805 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking cost Magicka instead of Stamina
Depending on how you look at it, there are 2 things wrong with this Passive. Let’s go through this in order.
Heavy Attack Taunt: there are aspects about this that are good and bad. For one it’s an interesting idea, to make the heavy attack do something useful to keep a skill slot free while also restoring some max magicka. While it isn't the worst thing ever, it's also not too amazing either. We can do it better, while also giving ice dps a reason to use the passive. Ice dps do their best to exist but not taking a passive because it is detrimental to your group’s wellbeing? What if you run out of magicka? Ok you’re going to heavy attack… but you can’t because you will make the tanks job harder, maybe you will draw the wrong kinds of attention toward yourself. Taking passives is supposed to be beneficial.
Shield:
Why is the shield so small? What is the reason for this? It can block 1, maybe 2 trash mob hits. Why have a shield at all if it is that little and insignificant?
What do I suggest to do to the passive?:
I suggest removing the Taunt from the heavy attack and giving the enemy a small reduction to both armor and spell resistance, separated from major/minor breach and fracture. 1000 which is smaller than major breach/fracture but will still gain a noticeable difference and is also smaller than minor breach/fracture. This now means that the tank can heavy attack an enemy to reduce their resistances further for the group’s benefit. But, not only that. It also means that Ice Dps can contribute to a fight with a heavy attack on a boss or a player to assist their groups and their own DPS output. I would also increase the strength of the personal shield by 2x to make the passive do a little more than block 1-2 hits.
HOWEVER If a seperate amount of reduction is too much, being able to stack this with minor and major, what about giving straight up minor breach and fracture?
How will this look?:
Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 805 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.
1:Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks lower a target’s Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 1000 for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1610 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.
OR:
2:Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks inflict the target with Minor Fracture and Minor Breach, reducing their Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 1320 for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1610 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.
It just works! Even thematically, Ice can dent the armor if solid enough or freeze it making it more brittle!
Notes: damage shield number should be base and not scaling off bastion or anything else.
I have felt that Ice Staff users should receive Physical and Spell Penetration buff when using the staff. I mean, when you get cold, a saying is literally "chilled to the bone" --- bitter cold seriously bites through warmth (especially humid cold) and right past your skin. It chills you deep, where you start shivering and can't stop. Believe me - got a taste of it living in Finland for two years - it chills you to the bone when unprepared. The staff should definitely add penetration, or a group debuff of minor fracture and breach to help group. But since Flame gets an 8% single target damage boost, lightning gets 8% AOE damage boost, I think Ice should get a overall lesser buff of 4% damage boost from penetration, affecting both single target and AOE damage--- about 2640 penetration value.
Those are just my thoughts as well. The penetration would also help out the two Ice-damage proc sets available in game- Iceheart and Winterborn- actually deal more of the full damage base of the set proc.
A self buff to penetration would be honestly amazing but i didn't want to include it as i didn't think all that much about it. Although i did think for around a minute. But for sure it would help so much as a tank and dps weapon. If i have any future posts about this ill include your name if i include the idea!Edited by ESO_Nightingale on November 27, 2018 3:07PMPvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX1 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I secretly enjoy watching bosses throttle ice staff users.
I warn them, but it’s still pretty funny to me. 0 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Tan9oSuccka wrote: »I secretly enjoy watching bosses throttle ice staff users.
I warn them, but it’s still pretty funny to me.
All in good fun!PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If I may provide just a little pushback,Where as ice staves arent effective.
What gives you this impression? There are two things sword and shield has that you cannot (reasonably) get with ice staff. An ultimate that blocks for you, and minor heroism. Both are really impactful, for sure. Neither prevent you from content, though.
And I'm not saying you made the argument, but that you've not seen something is not proof of it not being a thing.2 -
Acrolas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The entire Destruction Staff skill line has differentiated the three types of staves. Flame focuses on damage and single targets, Lightning focuses on area of effects and multiple targets, and Frost focuses on defense and crowd control.
I think the thing to focus on isn't Tri Focus. The thing to focus on is that pretty much every Frost bonus is just to immobilize enemies. Even Lightning does more than just stun. So I would say that replacing the extended immobilization with a Puncture style taunt in the Destructive Reach morph of Destructive Touch would probably make more sense than a taunt on the heavy attack. Coupled with the range, it's a good combination.
But then what goes back into Tri Focus? The line is still going to use the established themes, so it's still going to be a defensive ability. We're not going to see an attack skill in there, we're going to see something like Minor or Major Evasion.
You can add additional Frost or Magic damage through various gear sets, but we're not going to see Frost shifted for damage the same way we're not going to see Restoration shifted for damage.signing off0 -
Haashhtaag✭✭✭✭✭
✭How about making the other morph of blockade that no one uses an AoE taunt as long as ice staff is equipped while giving flame/lightning staves some kind of effect from it as well.
People have been looking for an AoE taunt for ages in this game. It would make ice staves on tanks a common thing.0 -
I love this 👍, it would be an awesome change of pace, especially for me (who loves to use a frost staff for tanking), and would finally create a reason to use Elemental SusceptibilityDocFrost72 wrote: »I like the heavy attack changes, but there is one important thing to mention.Notes: damage shield number should be base and not scaling off bastion or anything else.
Currently, the ice staff heavy shield scales off of health. Not scaling off that directly changes course from what ZOS set out to do with damage shields less patch. Their vision is to make them more useful to tanks, but less useful to dps. I think this particular change would be a hard sell to ZOS.
Secondly, regarding the discussion of major fracture... Your dps may already be providing it for you. Any meta group in the game is fielding a stam nightblade (or three). Their spammable provides some 10-15 seconds of fracture. If there is a warden in your group, there's no chance they're not running sub.
You mention that others wish to take this as their main tanking weapon, and that's fine. I'm not sold as to why ice staves have to be "the complete package" when sword and shield is not. Logically you agree that sword and board is not a complete package, as you state in your early ideas that sword AND ice staff is possibly the best setup. The reason why this is though is because they cover each other's deficiencies.
To put it another why, why even use sword another and shield if maim, fracture/breach, and taunt came from a weapon that also had a ranged interupt, a fantastic backbar enchant proccing ability that doubled ability a snare and root (and aoe maim), and and free to cost skill that returns your blocking resource?
There'd be no reason at all, regarding efficacy.
I understand the concerns of having Frost staff become a all in one package, but in truth, it simply wouldn’t be (even with these suggested changes). This would be a fun alternative to the classic 2xS&B or the S&B/Staff, but to run Staff/Staff, you’d give up a lot of utility and healing S&B provids, so I think Nightingale’s proposed changes are really well thought out ( it creates a viable option, but doesn’t uproot the classics)
Really love this overall, I hope @ZOS takes a close look 😀Edited by ForgottenEntity on November 27, 2018 3:28PMIGN—@AzrauI am a 21 year old Dungeons and Dragons goof, a gamer by heart, and now a Streamer over on TwitchMy favorite class is Magic Nightblade “Magblade”, though I frequently play other classes with the intent to learn them all2 -
Acrolas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Haashhtaag wrote: »People have been looking for an AoE taunt for ages in this game.
They're going to discover Halliday's Easter Egg long before they ever find an AOE taunt.signing off1 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I like the ideas here.
One thing that could also be fun is if the chilled status effect also did damage to moving targets. Nothing OP, but having a small frost dot apply while the target is moving would also fit with the idea that if your target was frozen, but attempted to move anyway they would take damage.
This would also give frost damage a DPS advantage on bosses that move around a lot.Playing since beta...1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ForgottenEntity wrote: »I love this 👍, it would be an awesome change of pace, especially for me (who loves to use a frost staff for tanking), and would finally create a reason to use Elemental SusceptibilityDocFrost72 wrote: »I like the heavy attack changes, but there is one important thing to mention.Notes: damage shield number should be base and not scaling off bastion or anything else.
Currently, the ice staff heavy shield scales off of health. Not scaling off that directly changes course from what ZOS set out to do with damage shields less patch. Their vision is to make them more useful to tanks, but less useful to dps. I think this particular change would be a hard sell to ZOS.
Secondly, regarding the discussion of major fracture... Your dps may already be providing it for you. Any meta group in the game is fielding a stam nightblade (or three). Their spammable provides some 10-15 seconds of fracture. If there is a warden in your group, there's no chance they're not running sub.
You mention that others wish to take this as their main tanking weapon, and that's fine. I'm not sold as to why ice staves have to be "the complete package" when sword and shield is not. Logically you agree that sword and board is not a complete package, as you state in your early ideas that sword AND ice staff is possibly the best setup. The reason why this is though is because they cover each other's deficiencies.
To put it another why, why even use sword another and shield if maim, fracture/breach, and taunt came from a weapon that also had a ranged interupt, a fantastic backbar enchant proccing ability that doubled ability a snare and root (and aoe maim), and and free to cost skill that returns your blocking resource?
There'd be no reason at all, regarding efficacy.
I understand the concerns of having Frost staff become a all in one package, but in truth, it simply wouldn’t be (even with these suggested changes).
What would it be missing conducive to end game?This would be a fun alternative to the classic 2xS&B or the S&B/Staff, but to run Staff/Staff, you’d give up a lot of utility and healing S&B provids,
Which such utility? And the only healing skill in the entire line only works if you are being hit by single target spells (and one morph at that), it is...not known for being a healing weapon.so I think Nightingale’s proposed changes are really well thought out
On that we agree. This is definitely one of the better "change ice" threads.0 -
Joosef_Kivikilpi✭✭✭✭ESO_Nightingale wrote: »
A self buff to penetration would be honestly amazing but i didn't want to include it as i didn't think all that much about it. Although i did think for around a minute. But for sure it would help so much as a tank and dps weapon. If i have any future posts about this ill include your name if i include the idea!
That'd be appreciated, @ESO_Nightingale - I enjoy your non-meta theory-crafting ideas, and especially the Frost ideas due to be partial towards the Frost Mage theme (since accidentally trying out Iceheart set and realizing how awesome the proc looked and fell in love with Ice since 2016 haha)Edited by Joosef_Kivikilpi on November 27, 2018 4:05PM1 -
I think you under estimate just how useful that S&B heal actually is Doc, other advantages of S&B is higher resistance stats, access to sustained ult gen, 100% minor maim uptime on boss, block move speed (actually does come in handy occasionally), better blocking (thanks to absorb magic), and higher stat pool and extra trait bonus from the shield.
And you wouldn’t have the magic sustain buff from staves remember ( the idea is to make you choose between ele drain and the taunt).
Not saying any of this is game breaking, and by all means won’t stop you from doing end game content on Staff/Staff, but while staves will have a great time with changes like these, S&B still has plenty going for it to keep it a main stay on the classic tank, and will still be the stronger front bar weapon typeIGN—@AzrauI am a 21 year old Dungeons and Dragons goof, a gamer by heart, and now a Streamer over on TwitchMy favorite class is Magic Nightblade “Magblade”, though I frequently play other classes with the intent to learn them all1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭2k resistances with a Nirnhoned shield, assuming your tank does not hit cap. That would also not let you use infused for your 1k health.
Ult gen is correct, but the reality is you're discussing .66 (repeating) ulti/s, though you are correct there.
Ice staves induce maim, and with wall it is an aoe maim.
Block move speed is another I hadn't listed, and while I may stress it is highly situational I will concede that as well.
You can slot absorb magic for the block cost reduction on ice staff (it has no requirement to wield sword and shield as of my last testing, hilariously).
Healer (and failing that magic templars) can still provide magicka drain. If it does stack, nothing changes. If it doesn't stack, you'll either see required templar healers again (ZOS axed that for a reason, looking at you repentance) or people asking you not to use your new taunt and armor debuff.
I would never be so crass as to assume that sword and shield is weak, don't worry. Just that double sword and shield gives up quite as much that people are used to having in raids (aoe root/snare, maim, ranged interupt) as double ice is all 0 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭You say that the heavy attack taunt is bad an inefficient...all that means is that you dont know how and when to use it. You have to understand first that its a taunt that WAS NEVER MEANT TO REPLACE PUNCTURE OR INNER FIRE. This is what people dont understand about it...its a purely situational taunt...it can be used in some places and not others, and that is just fine. I dont understand why people who advocate for Ice Staff as a DPS weapon feel justified in getting a 3rd DPS weapon enough that they want the backbar weapon of tanks as well. I LIKE MY FREE RANGED TAUNT THAT RESTORES MAGICKA and I use it often on bosses like the last boss of Falkreath Hold to keep him permanently under taunt without expending rss to do so...as well the Minotaur boss in Bloodroot Forge...and the lord warden's shadows, etc. its stupid to take the taunt away just because people dont know how and when to use it.1 -
Nebthet78✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I like all the OPs suggestions. I miss using the Frost Staff, but I hate the Heavy attack taunt with it. It's really only semi-useful in PVP for certain builds. I would like to see the taunt option taken out of Tri-focus completely and be it's own seperate slot option. Thus allowing those of us who wish to use the Ice staff for DPS do so.
Far too many characters to list any more.1 -
Kanar✭✭✭✭✭
✭I thought this thread was supposed to be about making ice staff viable for DPS, but none of the suggestions do that.
It's just a really long post, way too verbose. Learn how to make a point.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Maybe OP can reply to me and be more specific. The first few paragraphs lost me as it kept switching between being about frost staff DPS and frost staff tanking in a meandering rambling kind of way.
The reality is Zos cowered to those asking for a magicka tanking weapon and gave them one by lazily retrofitting the frost staff/destruction staff line to accommodate this in a lazy manner that created a feeble tanking weapon and a worse dps weapon.
In the end experienced tanks do not put points into the dStaff passives and only use it back bar for access to a ranged interrupt and/or WoE to keep their enchantment proc up.
This may not be the tanking/dps weapon you wanted but it is the tanking/dps weapon Matt Firror felt you deserved and seems pretty content leaving it as is.
1 -
Kanar✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Edit: I'm just deleting my post because OP is just a kid and hasn't learned about brevity yet.Edited by Kanar on November 27, 2018 7:15PM0 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You say that the heavy attack taunt is bad an inefficient...all that means is that you dont know how and when to use it. You have to understand first that its a taunt that WAS NEVER MEANT TO REPLACE PUNCTURE OR INNER FIRE. This is what people dont understand about it...its a purely situational taunt...it can be used in some places and not others, and that is just fine. I dont understand why people who advocate for Ice Staff as a DPS weapon feel justified in getting a 3rd DPS weapon enough that they want the backbar weapon of tanks as well. I LIKE MY FREE RANGED TAUNT THAT RESTORES MAGICKA and I use it often on bosses like the last boss of Falkreath Hold to keep him permanently under taunt without expending rss to do so...as well the Minotaur boss in Bloodroot Forge...and the lord warden's shadows, etc. its stupid to take the taunt away just because people dont know how and when to use it.
No, i understand how to use it and it can be done much better. I think you're assuming that i dont know what im talking about.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I thought this thread was supposed to be about making ice staff viable for DPS, but none of the suggestions do that.
It's just a really long post, way too verbose. Learn how to make a point.
My intention is to have future posts which further cover dps changes but i also hinted towards this with the italicized "for now" and talked about how this is probably just the start. You say learn how to make a point but its really simple to see how i make my point. Perhaps if you would read it, you would understand what i am saying
PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »If I may provide just a little pushback,Where as ice staves arent effective.
What gives you this impression? There are two things sword and shield has that you cannot (reasonably) get with ice staff. An ultimate that blocks for you, and minor heroism. Both are really impactful, for sure. Neither prevent you from content, though.
And I'm not saying you made the argument, but that you've not seen something is not proof of it not being a thing.
Reliable Major fracture is what has to tear it down.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭ESO_Nightingale wrote: »You say that the heavy attack taunt is bad an inefficient...all that means is that you dont know how and when to use it. You have to understand first that its a taunt that WAS NEVER MEANT TO REPLACE PUNCTURE OR INNER FIRE. This is what people dont understand about it...its a purely situational taunt...it can be used in some places and not others, and that is just fine. I dont understand why people who advocate for Ice Staff as a DPS weapon feel justified in getting a 3rd DPS weapon enough that they want the backbar weapon of tanks as well. I LIKE MY FREE RANGED TAUNT THAT RESTORES MAGICKA and I use it often on bosses like the last boss of Falkreath Hold to keep him permanently under taunt without expending rss to do so...as well the Minotaur boss in Bloodroot Forge...and the lord warden's shadows, etc. its stupid to take the taunt away just because people dont know how and when to use it.
No, i understand how to use it and it can be done much better. I think you're assuming that i dont know what im talking about.
If you understand how to use it, you would never suggest removing the taunt from the heavy attack to benefit DPS over tanks, its a taunt that has its place. A much better solution would be to give the ICE staff to DPS and give tanks a replacement staff with more tank-specific skills, or let the tanks keep the ice staff with more tank-specific skills and give DPS some other staff or wands or somethingEdited by josiahva on November 27, 2018 7:56PM3
