Nice writeups, although I don't think the 3-shield setup is optimal anymore. There are other, very viable options now to explore.

In all of MMOs history there has been people that have managed some awesome and skillfull play on underdog classes, does not change the fact that the class is an underdog. In a world were they chase 'balance' being weaker then others just because of the choice of class is bad.

Tho, killing scrubs is the one thing we still can do... xD

Derra wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Nice writeups, although I don't think the 3-shield setup is optimal anymore. There are other, very viable options now to explore.

I´d be very hesitant to call anything optimal or not optimal that´s not related to hard stats and numbers (sets/mundus/enchants).

You can´t really quantify skills being optimal or not they come down to personal preference.

Yeah, there's truth in that - optimal probably wasn't the right word for me to use, and Its definitely a preference thing .. (Although my preference changed this patch).

Now with a more (unshielded) effective health due to resists/impen, I'd rather save bar-space, use just a single shield with passive defences that handle the small down-times that comes with that, and run a hot rather than a delayed heal to keep topped up. I constantly find, when under outnumbered pressure, the limitations are with available cooldowns(especially when laggy and stuff refuses to fire), and spamming the biggest shield serves me best - and the odd times I have a free cooldown to do something else, it goes on refreshing boundless, or rapid-regen, or being offensive. When not under pressure, there isn't much need to put up a shield at all.

You're right though - but can't really compare 3 shields with one+hot+more defensive stats mathematically - too many variables in terms of how they're used at the time, and impossible to measure that free slot benefit - so it can only really be based on personal preference.

i just like it malclom!

MalcolM24 wrote: »

smarmyguy wrote: »

Elo, yes the update has really messed up magic sorcs. Near enough every skill they use in pvp has been nerfed one way or another. Last patch I was running spinner, lich, infernal G.

Here is my current build. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=97524 (I am trying to get master inferno atm).

Yes it's good to have more health but shields don't scale with health that much from what I understand they are defiantly capped by health. So putting points in bastion to hit the cap is a must.Obviously resistances are important hence why i'm running them so high.

With the nerf to rune cage its probably better to run destro stun and then master inferno to free up a space on your bar so you are not using force pulse.

I can't make my mind up if resto ult or temp guard is best on back bar.

I never use mages wrath unless im in a deathmatch bg and I replace curse to steal those kills . I think execute is a waste as if an opponent is on 20% health they are dead anyways. I see to many sorcs just spamming it in cyrodil and doing no damage.

I am after some feedback on my build as i'm not sure of the potential of mag sorc this patch.

Thanks.

Not gonna lie, it's not good. Most of what I'm about to say is also explained in my guide, so as a summary:
Harness is better than dampen.
Reach is better than clench.
Other resto ult morph is better.
Armor master is a mediocre set, certainly when you don't onebar it. Yes resistances are important, but you're pushing it to the point where you lose too much on other stats. Consider impreg if you want a defensive set.
Infused isn't worth it anymore.
Your magregen bonuses (such as highelf) make the magregen glyph better than costreduction.
High elf isn't the best race anymore, but I get why you run it, I still prefer high elf too.
Stamina sustain is good.
Defending is better than powered on resto for magsorc. Powered is defenitely good too though, I run it on backbar when I play stamina. So no big problem there.
The execute is defenitely not a waste. As I explained, it works great as additional burst, cast it early in rotation and use its delayed automatic finish. Without fury you'll never be able to kill a player with some tankiness, because spamming reach can easily be countered when the player is on defense (which he should be at 20% health). Fury mostly kills them instantly at that point.
You can get major prophecy in the spell power pots you're running, so magelight is mostly wasted here. If you're bound on not runnning fury go with ele drain

Good luck with your sorc, hope this helps!

@Ling thanks ^^

Haha this whole video goes along with what we talked about in mails. Are you not frustrated? I'm actually running a mix of your set-up with Force + Rune Cage + Meteor combo. Rune Cage was nerfed, but it's actually still pretty strong, if you time it correctly by casting the Meteor 1st and are good at animation cancelling you can sit someone out of block right before the Meteor connects.

I've taken to running Lich after watching your video's and finding that I just cannot sustain in anything else this patch (to lazy to farm BTB)

Currently running Overwhelming + Lich with a Mag Regen front bar enchant on a Willpower Inferno staff. Back bar is infused spell damage instead of the escapist poison, escapist poison would probably be better for 1vX but I'm struggling in 1v1's against good Temps + DK's and it's not because I run out of stamina or get CC locked, it's usually because I cannot pressure them at all while they can spam Reach as often as they want. I figure Overwhelming gives me the 8% dmg increase, good spell damage buffs, Lich + Spellpower pot gives me regen, and I'm running Twilight for the HP cushion with double shields (Hardened + Harness) - full Impen, hoping this gives me more survivability, not fully tested enough against good players yet to let me know if I'm not able to dodge enough.

I still don't get how you manage your stamina while also using conversion. Then again it just clicked that it's probably why you roll with the escapist poison - reduces your need to break free consistently as you get CC protection randomly so that it interrupts their ability to time bursts, might have to take you up on that.

I'd still like to see a video of you 1v1'ing a good MagTemp/MagDK with 1900 spell damage.. I do not understand how you're killing people with that.

MalagenR wrote: »

MalcolM24 wrote: »

smarmyguy wrote: »

Elo, yes the update has really messed up magic sorcs. Near enough every skill they use in pvp has been nerfed one way or another. Last patch I was running spinner, lich, infernal G.

Here is my current build. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=97524 (I am trying to get master inferno atm).

Yes it's good to have more health but shields don't scale with health that much from what I understand they are defiantly capped by health. So putting points in bastion to hit the cap is a must.Obviously resistances are important hence why i'm running them so high.

With the nerf to rune cage its probably better to run destro stun and then master inferno to free up a space on your bar so you are not using force pulse.

I can't make my mind up if resto ult or temp guard is best on back bar.

I never use mages wrath unless im in a deathmatch bg and I replace curse to steal those kills . I think execute is a waste as if an opponent is on 20% health they are dead anyways. I see to many sorcs just spamming it in cyrodil and doing no damage.

I am after some feedback on my build as i'm not sure of the potential of mag sorc this patch.

Thanks.

Not gonna lie, it's not good. Most of what I'm about to say is also explained in my guide, so as a summary:
Harness is better than dampen.
Reach is better than clench.
Other resto ult morph is better.
Armor master is a mediocre set, certainly when you don't onebar it. Yes resistances are important, but you're pushing it to the point where you lose too much on other stats. Consider impreg if you want a defensive set.
Infused isn't worth it anymore.
Your magregen bonuses (such as highelf) make the magregen glyph better than costreduction.
High elf isn't the best race anymore, but I get why you run it, I still prefer high elf too.
Stamina sustain is good.
Defending is better than powered on resto for magsorc. Powered is defenitely good too though, I run it on backbar when I play stamina. So no big problem there.
The execute is defenitely not a waste. As I explained, it works great as additional burst, cast it early in rotation and use its delayed automatic finish. Without fury you'll never be able to kill a player with some tankiness, because spamming reach can easily be countered when the player is on defense (which he should be at 20% health). Fury mostly kills them instantly at that point.
You can get major prophecy in the spell power pots you're running, so magelight is mostly wasted here. If you're bound on not runnning fury go with ele drain

Good luck with your sorc, hope this helps!

@Ling thanks ^^

Haha this whole video goes along with what we talked about in mails. Are you not frustrated? I'm actually running a mix of your set-up with Force + Rune Cage + Meteor combo. Rune Cage was nerfed, but it's actually still pretty strong, if you time it correctly by casting the Meteor 1st and are good at animation cancelling you can sit someone out of block right before the Meteor connects.

I've taken to running Lich after watching your video's and finding that I just cannot sustain in anything else this patch (to lazy to farm BTB)

Currently running Overwhelming + Lich with a Mag Regen front bar enchant on a Willpower Inferno staff. Back bar is infused spell damage instead of the escapist poison, escapist poison would probably be better for 1vX but I'm struggling in 1v1's against good Temps + DK's and it's not because I run out of stamina or get CC locked, it's usually because I cannot pressure them at all while they can spam Reach as often as they want. I figure Overwhelming gives me the 8% dmg increase, good spell damage buffs, Lich + Spellpower pot gives me regen, and I'm running Twilight for the HP cushion with double shields (Hardened + Harness) - full Impen, hoping this gives me more survivability, not fully tested enough against good players yet to let me know if I'm not able to dodge enough.

I still don't get how you manage your stamina while also using conversion. Then again it just clicked that it's probably why you roll with the escapist poison - reduces your need to break free consistently as you get CC protection randomly so that it interrupts their ability to time bursts, might have to take you up on that.

I'd still like to see a video of you 1v1'ing a good MagTemp/MagDK with 1900 spell damage.. I do not understand how you're killing people with that.

There is a case to be made for running poisons on a destro staff. You can drop an entire stack in under an hour running either force pulse/reach/wall of elements, and you can get a variety of benefits from them versus enchants which can be one dimensional.

I will watch the video with sounds on my way to work tomorrow!

Minno wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

MalcolM24 wrote: »

smarmyguy wrote: »

Elo, yes the update has really messed up magic sorcs. Near enough every skill they use in pvp has been nerfed one way or another. Last patch I was running spinner, lich, infernal G.

Here is my current build. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=97524 (I am trying to get master inferno atm).

Yes it's good to have more health but shields don't scale with health that much from what I understand they are defiantly capped by health. So putting points in bastion to hit the cap is a must.Obviously resistances are important hence why i'm running them so high.

With the nerf to rune cage its probably better to run destro stun and then master inferno to free up a space on your bar so you are not using force pulse.

I can't make my mind up if resto ult or temp guard is best on back bar.

I never use mages wrath unless im in a deathmatch bg and I replace curse to steal those kills . I think execute is a waste as if an opponent is on 20% health they are dead anyways. I see to many sorcs just spamming it in cyrodil and doing no damage.

I am after some feedback on my build as i'm not sure of the potential of mag sorc this patch.

Thanks.

Not gonna lie, it's not good. Most of what I'm about to say is also explained in my guide, so as a summary:
Harness is better than dampen.
Reach is better than clench.
Other resto ult morph is better.
Armor master is a mediocre set, certainly when you don't onebar it. Yes resistances are important, but you're pushing it to the point where you lose too much on other stats. Consider impreg if you want a defensive set.
Infused isn't worth it anymore.
Your magregen bonuses (such as highelf) make the magregen glyph better than costreduction.
High elf isn't the best race anymore, but I get why you run it, I still prefer high elf too.
Stamina sustain is good.
Defending is better than powered on resto for magsorc. Powered is defenitely good too though, I run it on backbar when I play stamina. So no big problem there.
The execute is defenitely not a waste. As I explained, it works great as additional burst, cast it early in rotation and use its delayed automatic finish. Without fury you'll never be able to kill a player with some tankiness, because spamming reach can easily be countered when the player is on defense (which he should be at 20% health). Fury mostly kills them instantly at that point.
You can get major prophecy in the spell power pots you're running, so magelight is mostly wasted here. If you're bound on not runnning fury go with ele drain

Good luck with your sorc, hope this helps!

@Ling thanks ^^

Haha this whole video goes along with what we talked about in mails. Are you not frustrated? I'm actually running a mix of your set-up with Force + Rune Cage + Meteor combo. Rune Cage was nerfed, but it's actually still pretty strong, if you time it correctly by casting the Meteor 1st and are good at animation cancelling you can sit someone out of block right before the Meteor connects.

I've taken to running Lich after watching your video's and finding that I just cannot sustain in anything else this patch (to lazy to farm BTB)

Currently running Overwhelming + Lich with a Mag Regen front bar enchant on a Willpower Inferno staff. Back bar is infused spell damage instead of the escapist poison, escapist poison would probably be better for 1vX but I'm struggling in 1v1's against good Temps + DK's and it's not because I run out of stamina or get CC locked, it's usually because I cannot pressure them at all while they can spam Reach as often as they want. I figure Overwhelming gives me the 8% dmg increase, good spell damage buffs, Lich + Spellpower pot gives me regen, and I'm running Twilight for the HP cushion with double shields (Hardened + Harness) - full Impen, hoping this gives me more survivability, not fully tested enough against good players yet to let me know if I'm not able to dodge enough.

I still don't get how you manage your stamina while also using conversion. Then again it just clicked that it's probably why you roll with the escapist poison - reduces your need to break free consistently as you get CC protection randomly so that it interrupts their ability to time bursts, might have to take you up on that.

I'd still like to see a video of you 1v1'ing a good MagTemp/MagDK with 1900 spell damage.. I do not understand how you're killing people with that.

There is a case to be made for running poisons on a destro staff. You can drop an entire stack in under an hour running either force pulse/reach/wall of elements, and you can get a variety of benefits from them versus enchants which can be one dimensional.

I will watch the video with sounds on my way to work tomorrow!

There's also the downside... The cost.
One of my main (but rarely mentioned) gripes I have with PVP is the amount of benefit you can get from the oh-so expensive pots, foods and poisons..
Makes it so you have to spend time doing stuff outside of PvP if you want to benefit from them.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Nice! People would be much better off watching the entirety of the videos than devoting the same amount of time crying how their class was ruined.

Malcolm 1vX'ing potatoes isn't the definitive judgment for balancing.

There isn't any clips in the video.

Feanor wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Nice! People would be much better off watching the entirety of the videos than devoting the same amount of time crying how their class was ruined.

Malcolm 1vX'ing potatoes isn't the definitive judgment for balancing.

There isn't any clips in the video.

@Joy_Division

No offense, but your statement is the equivalent of saying raiding is easy because Hodor can do it just fine.

Well which is it? Malcom is a terribad preying on other worse players or Malcom is a leet player that is too OP on sorc?

It can't be both and certainly if there are better guides I am sure those players will make their builds public

Feanor wrote: »

@Minno

According to the videos I've seen Malcolm is a player who does two things extremely well - use terrain/LoS and have the feel for the offensive window. So, yes, compared to your average Sorc he is really good in my opinion. My comment wasn't a knock against Malcolm or his guide - it was to point out that @Joy_Division saying a class isn't broken because one of the best players on it can make it work still is somewhat problematic. Should have quoted correctly though, my mistake.

I didn't say the class isn't broken. I said it would be more productive to watch the video than come onto these forums and whine - based on hearsay, assumption, speculation, not actual experience - that their class sucks now.

Because just whining on these forums based on nothing, no evidence, no videos, no math, no demonstration of even trying to make use of the new mechanics, has been so historically helpful in convincing ZOS to revert the decisions they made. There is an absolute track record of success that we can point to and see just how effective that route is.

You don't think it would more compelling to ZOS to demonstrate that an honest and intelligent effort was made in order to work with the changes to make a build that is effective and fun to play? That an assessment of the class's strengths and weaknesses and what ought to be looked into from a specific and multi-varied analysis is perhaps a little more valuable than "class sucks, it can only kill potatoes now."? That the sort of feedback coming from an very in-depth and up-to-date current analysis as such provided by Malcolm would not provide superior feedback than the speculative rants that sees the class through what it can no longer do, rather than how the class actually is performing after the changes were made?

@Joy_Division

I would buy the “detailed feedback is better than ranting” argument if it were founded in past experience. But if I look at PTS cycles and the patches after an update goes live, I simply can’t see that detailed feedback yields better results than an outcry of anger.

The shield cast time debacle is a good example. Every magical user who utilized shields said how ridiculous that was. There wasn’t any in depth analysis, but there was a huge uproar. Then ZOS dialed back and made the cast uninterruptible before finally admitting the whole idea wasn’t really great and they took up the health cap idea then.

Many players have repeatedly written with sound arguments why the class is in an undesirable state - not necessarily meaning trash tier, but a lot more unfun to play if you don’t want to play tank style. All we got so far was ZOS hinting at an offensive revamp in the distant future with no ETA, and I assume, not even fleshed out ideas.

Does that moths operandi the combat team shows again and again assure you that it’s worth to invest a considerable amount of time and work for an analysis that is very likely going to waste? If it takes three years of threads with hundreds of pages - hello Templars - to get back to a state that’s fun to play I don’t think that’s worth the effort.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

I get what you're trying to say, but not everyone has the will or means to create an hour video just to give feedback. So they come here and simply cry. A lot of people crying is an initial indicator that something's up. If further inspection of more detailed feedback points in the same direction, that's even better. But a general outcry is where it starts.

And regarding Malcolm, he's an excellent specialized sorc. He picked the class because of the mix of kiting and open fighting. And he perfected using Cyro terrain for his 1vX needs. Of course he's fine, nothing really changed his base approach.
Us others, who are not as skilled in that and fight in other areas, like open fights, group fights, duels, etc.... We're also there. And we have a different perception, as we have a different expertise. That's why I'm saying Malcolm consisering sorc okay isn't the final verdict on the class.

This would have some merit at all if people crying as a baseline totally explored all their options and had comprehensive perspective before turning to the forums to vent and whine. More often than not, this is not the case. In reality, people die then respawn on the forums without really even attempting to find proper solutions. Which is why I agree 100% with @Joy_Division general sentiment. Have been saying this for years: less QQ, more pew pew.

Besides solo play is where the strengths and weaknesses of a class are most tested and prominent. Since it is the most challenging content and the player/class/build is in a vacuum. If it works solo it can work anywhere else. When I hear “open field” PvP I think zerg surfing, and sorc will always be phenomenal at that. Can sorc be tuned a bit? Sure. But the crying and whining is unwarranted, especially when someone is posting valid guides with results to back it up.

1vX is harder than any kind of group play, and is more skill intensive. Nothing else pushes a class or build to its limits more. This is because the player on the class is isolated with nothing but the tools at his or her disposal. The point you make about group support is precisely why group play is less indicative of a single class, as there are too many variables at play. 1vX is a single unit in a vacuum, which is why it is more reflective of a class’ unique strengths and challenges more than any other. And no, you don’t “avoid” anything- you work with what you get. And if the opponents are equally skilled you will die. But even still, 1vX against adequate non-potatoe opponents is by far the most challlenging format of play- coming from someone who mostly plays in groups and has perspective on all sides.

I do agree that all aspects should definitely be considered. But my point is, if an experienced 1vXer says a class is solid and has results to back it up, I will take that over forum whining any day.

On your point about QQ, 95% of complaints and whining on then forums is meaningless noise from people who have a lot to learn.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Minno

According to the videos I've seen Malcolm is a player who does two things extremely well - use terrain/LoS and have the feel for the offensive window. So, yes, compared to your average Sorc he is really good in my opinion. My comment wasn't a knock against Malcolm or his guide - it was to point out that @Joy_Division saying a class isn't broken because one of the best players on it can make it work still is somewhat problematic. Should have quoted correctly though, my mistake.

I didn't say the class isn't broken. I said it would be more productive to watch the video than come onto these forums and whine - based on hearsay, assumption, speculation, not actual experience - that their class sucks now.

Because just whining on these forums based on nothing, no evidence, no videos, no math, no demonstration of even trying to make use of the new mechanics, has been so historically helpful in convincing ZOS to revert the decisions they made. There is an absolute track record of success that we can point to and see just how effective that route is.

You don't think it would more compelling to ZOS to demonstrate that an honest and intelligent effort was made in order to work with the changes to make a build that is effective and fun to play? That an assessment of the class's strengths and weaknesses and what ought to be looked into from a specific and multi-varied analysis is perhaps a little more valuable than "class sucks, it can only kill potatoes now."? That the sort of feedback coming from an very in-depth and up-to-date current analysis as such provided by Malcolm would not provide superior feedback than the speculative rants that sees the class through what it can no longer do, rather than how the class actually is performing after the changes were made?

And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?
Resulting in the statement: Sorc is a potatomasher?

Edit: Take the latest EU tournament as an example. Dan (the only magica sorc) played objectively very well and probably had better movement than any of his opponents.
He was only able to win one fight by killing his opponent - and that only after the judges changed the skill loadout of both players to lower their defense.

This perfectly showcases the issues of the class and why it gets mostly labled a potatomasher by experienced players. It is somewhat easy to not die to a sorc. Every class has hardcounters for parts or the entirety of their burst combo.
The burst is delayed and telegraphed (even worse since murkmire fragment delay) which makes utilizing dodge, block or any class based defense a lot easier than against any other class.
It´s further reinforced by sorc being a pure burst class - no access to sustained pressure via class skills and there is no access to sustained pressure from destruction staff. This results in sorc being as easily countered as having enough effective HP (mitigation + HP) to simply tank the burst and heal up.
Murkmire aggravated these issues by making barspace problems - which had been highlighted in the very first classrep meeting with the devs - worse because sorc now needs to slot dedicated healing (due to the healing ward nerfs) and an armor skill on top of the previously already cluttered bars.
I could now continue how CC is also a massive issue due purely burst dmg and how that in combination with shields (burst defense + high requirement of gcds for defense) leads to utilizing a cc that deals no dmg being massively stupid if you ever want to kill an opponent (taking frag cc was bad, runecage with no dmg at all is terrible, masterstaff is still almost mandatory).
But i´ll stop here - because i´ve gone this way on multiple different occasions - and it´s quite frankly tiring to simply always read the same thing about stopping to whine and provide constructive feedback.

The feedback is there. Constructive and nonconstructive. Take it and stop passing the ball back to the players.
Maybe when the large majority of feedback is negative and getting increasingly nonconstructive it´s because people are getting tired of repeating the same things with literally nothing getting adressed but rather things are objectively getting worse (barspace, lack of healing to name two specifically).

Part of this is due to obliviondmg being broken. But since it seems oblivion dmg isn´t going anywhere this is where the issues of the class lie.