Grouping system for 4man dungeons

Mrpanda · March 2014

zenimax needs to fix it i got a group all dps... like really without a dedicated healer in a group you are most likely to fail. ive been able to make it through without a tank but a healer really is a must.

murpf · March 2014

how does the group finder work in this game? does it not have specific role options?

Victt · March 2014

You're either new to MMO's, or a troll. Dungeons are part of the main content in TESO. If you're able to complete all of this without a healer, what's the point in that class? It goes with all MMO's.. Healers heal, and are needed for raiding, dungeons etc.

Cicero8 · March 2014

fix it, as in making it work with 4 dps or fix it as in making the grouping better.

You should have a tank and a healer. PERIOD.

Mrpanda · April 2014

Victt wrote: »

You're either new to MMO's, or a troll. Dungeons are part of the main content in TESO. If you're able to complete all of this without a healer, what's the point in that class? It goes with all MMO's.. Healers heal, and are needed for raiding, dungeons etc.

thats pretty much what i said

Cogo · April 2014

Mrpanda wrote: »

zenimax needs to fix it i got a group all dps... like really without a dedicated healer in a group you are most likely to fail. ive been able to make it through without a tank but a healer really is a must.

Um. Are you asking the gamemakers to make groups for you? What's wrong in asking around, get a group and go kill stuff?

If you can't be arsed to get what you think is the right teammate for your group....then this game might now be for you. Go play wow.

Izzban · April 2014

Here is my problem with the grouping system. They made it 4 man groups.

Why?
I think they did it so they could more easily balance content. It's certainly easier to balance around 4 possible skill synergies rather than 6 (many MMO group size).

What's the difference?
4 man groups reduce complexity and simplify encounters. Devs like this, players don't. It's simple, the more players in the group, the more complex.

What's the problem?
The problem is that most players prefer a DPS role in groups. This is not an opinion, it is a fact. While I am not yet incensed enough to find studies that poll the ratio of dps to healers and tanks, I can tell you with all certainty that there is not 1 healer or tank for every dps.

4 man groups demand 1 healer, 1 tank, and 2 dps. Before you whip out your e-peen and tell me how awesome you are with no tanks, healers, or dpsers, let me tell you it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you CAN complete something without one of the trinity if it's EASIER with them all.

If it's easier with them all, then that's what players will demand. That is also where the devs will balance the content.

So now you have a LOT of DPS players who were told they can, "play how they want to play" finding out that they can't get into dungeons because there are like 6 DPS players for each tank or healer. It's not so bad in a 6 man group where you have 4 DPS and 1 tank, 1 healer. 4 man groups have 2 DPS and increase the wait time for DPS players by 100% (theoretically).

I am not stupid, I realize this was a design decision made a long time ago and won't be changed. I just wanted to let current DPSers know why they can't get groups. I wanted to let former DPS know why they had to change to tank so they could do dungeons, though they didn't want to play a tank ("play how you want to play!")

I don't have an answer to this. I changed my DPS to include tanking, though it cost a lot of time and in-game money. I don't really want to tank, though I do it to progress. I wish there was a better way for all of us.

Mrpanda · April 2014

ok it seems many of you have misunderstood me, what i am trying to say is that the 4 man grouping system is broken in the sense that it will pair you in a group that does not have a healer and or tank or in some cases both. i want zenimax to fix it that it will group people together where you have your 2dps and 1 tank and 1 healer, not 3 dps and one tank or 3 dps one healer or just 4 dps. do you all understand now?

Gohlar · April 2014

The group leader can select which roles fill each slot.

Haboom · April 2014

I'd like the group selection to be more robust with questions like:

1. Do you know how to block?
2. How do you dodge?
3. Can you see the Pool of Death you are currently standing in?

Mrpanda · April 2014

Gohlar wrote: »

The group leader can select which roles fill each slot.

yes that may be true but if you use the grouping system to run say fungul grotto and it puts you with 1 tank and 3 dps and the 3 dps are nightblades so no one can really heal, unless you count healing potions but you can only use 1 in a fight and they really dont do ***.

Glurin · April 2014

Haboom wrote: »

I'd like the group selection to be more robust with questions like:

1. Do you know how to block?
2. How do you dodge?
3. Can you see the Pool of Death you are currently standing in?

As would I. Just knowing what you're doing can negate the need for dedicated tanks and healers and DPS. To a degree anyway. If you think about it, the trinity is really only there because people can't get their heads out of their asses and think beyond it.

jdilly1b14_ESO · April 2014

your only getting 4 dps because all our levels at higher levels most people can do two jobs with weapon swaps

Brascus · April 2014

jdilly1b14_ESO wrote: »

your only getting 4 dps because all our levels at higher levels most people can do two jobs with weapon swaps

Agreed. Once that second set of skills and weapon open up at LV 15 you just opened up way more options. A templar built to tank can now do double duty with a restoration staff, or a mage built with DPS in mind can use the blood font ability. Yay options!

Custos91 · April 2014

Mrpanda wrote: »

Gohlar wrote: »

The group leader can select which roles fill each slot.

yes that may be true but if you use the grouping system to run say fungul grotto and it puts you with 1 tank and 3 dps and the 3 dps are nightblades so no one can really heal, unless you count healing potions but you can only use 1 in a fight and they really dont do ***.

Saw a pair of streams with nightblade healers, actually they are stronger than templar healers...
and:
The leader decides what the system is looking for, when you end with 4 dds while you searched for a healer and a tank, you got 2 trolls and can kick them...

yodoberman · April 2014

The problem is some players dont correctly set their roll

superfluke · April 2014

far as i can tell the op wasnt asking for a lesson on how to play from some smug theorycrafting jaded mmo experts he was taking up issue with the in-game grouping system. (which i didnt even know the game had)

georuhb14_ESO · April 2014

Not to rain on the parade, but ESO isn't like other mmo's. So, throw out your traditional ideas of normal group mechanics within dungeons. For example, I've had groups of 4 dps and we made it work with off heal abilities such as obsidian shield, a Templar bowman, or the t1 undaunted ability in fungal grotto. In another instance while waiting for a healer, a three man group in deshaan's dungeon got to the second boss before their first wipe.

Sakiri · April 2014

Then theres this... Im a tank. I dont pug.

Bloodmonarch · April 2014

Izzban wrote: »

If it's easier with them all, then that's what players will demand.

And here we are again, the so called 'expected' MMO features. The usual hand holding, "make it all nice and easy for me".

One of the best dungeon runs I ever did in WoW was in the WOTLK expansion, just after release there were so many DeathKnight's around we would end up doing dungeons with 'all' Deathknight groups; they were a struggle, but damn it was fun!! It was fun because you had to think differently; the dungeons that were a boring face roll with a balanced group, were suddenly very challenging content.

ESO is trying to break this tiresome script, where everything is laid out for you, and all you do is mindlessly pass through the levels until you reach maximum level, at which point, all you do is stand in a city queuing for dungeons and raids all day.

The fact that everyone can be anything means that you can all have some healing abilities. That doesn't mean someone who wants to DPS 'has' to be full time healer in the group. If you all have some healing ability you can all swap out the healing during combat as required. As a combined group you then have a chance. It might be tough, it might not be the boring cake walk it is when in the 'expected' perfect group, but it will be fun. But only if you let it be fun.

Play the game for the enjoyment of the game, take on the challenges it throws at you, and enjoy the satisfaction when you overcome them. ESO is different, it needs a different mind set from the "I want everything now, oh and also, please make sure its not too difficult for me"

Lasticus · April 2014

Bloodmonarch wrote: »

Izzban wrote: »

Play the game for the enjoyment of the game, take on the challenges it throws at you, and enjoy the satisfaction when you overcome them. ESO is different, it needs a different mind set from the "I want everything now, oh and also, please make sure its not too difficult for me"

Thank you for saying that. This is so true! Everyone needs to understand this fact!

Hypersillyman · April 2014

The fact that the LFG tool for dungeons even allows you to select a role when you que seems to imply that groups are expected to have all roles represented. This would mean that the group finder should work like it does in other games, putting together a group that contains 2 dps, 1 healer, and 1 tank. Currently it does not do that. It is entirely possible, under the current system, to get 4 tanks, 4 healers, or 4 dps in a group. It's easy to say "well, someone just needs to switch roles", but it's not always as easy as that. Playing a certain role in a group requires having the correct skills slotted, having proper gear, as well as having the correct mindset for the role. Someone who has never healed before and has no desire to will likely not be a very good healer if forced into the role. Same with tanks. The only role that can be considered universal is dps, and some people even have a hard time with that. This, I think, is the main complaint about the current system. I would agree with this complaint. If they are going to have a group finder to put together dungeon PUGs, they need to improve the functionality of they system so that it creates balanced groups.

Oh, and, for the record, I don't think anyone is here saying that they want the game "handed to them". They simply want a group finder that functions properly. If the system is going to exist, it at least needs to work correctly. I personally, have had a couple of dungeon groups fall apart because of the system in its current form. When I get a group that is nothing but DPS, and no one wants to, or even knows how to, tank or heal, everyone drops and the group fails. Not cool, wastes peoples time, gets frustrating, and can steer people, especially the more casual players who don't have a lot of time to play, away from dungeons entirely.

All I am saying is that the system in its current form is inadequate. I needs some serious tweaking to make it work better. I like the idea of it, and they're on the right track with it, but it needs a little help. That being said, I very much enjoy the dungeon content so far, and have no issues with the difficulty. It has nothing to do with them being to hard and everything to do with the idea that a dungeon finder is supposed to create balanced groups and it isn't.

Just my opinion of course. Have a nice day.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2014

This reply will be too strong for many but I've found a lot of validity and from feedback from others that I've grouped with here is what seems to be true. I was healing or playing in a way that wasn't conducive to the group as a whole...here is what I've learned.

**The developers have created a system which allows all of us to play the way(s) we want. This also means it allows people to be selfish, idiots or just silly.
You can queue as any role regardless of your skills and abilities, but lets not put that on the system, lets blame the person but be nice about it.

Communicate before you travel to the dungeon.
***Note**If you group while doing quests, using the world tool, the group tool works exactly the same way. Its a better use of your time to group in the world and then go to a dungeon as a result of a good group rather than queuing up for a dungeon.

Dungeon experience is not that good if you've done the quests already so you're in it for the loot, chests and boss fights.

Every character in this game needs to be able to kill things their level and keep themselves alive.

*If this is true for your character then dungeons should not be an issue.

** If this is not true, pay to respect your skills and try and make selections that balance your character. (note, you will not loose the levels when you respect, it only refunds skill points)

The problem is, people are expecting this game to be like another MMO that you've played. Its not.

You need to be conscious of what's going on and use potions, heal yourself or protect others. Don't pull large groups that you cannot handle, expecting the healing or another player to pull off a miracle.

Healing:
Anyone can do it, just get a healing staff and get two skills and some passive skills (eat or drink something to boost your magika). Pause after each fight, ask the group to stay close to one another based on the skills you choose to use.

Tank/melee:
This game doesn't require a tank so to speak in the lower level dungeons but it does require common sense mechanics and skill selections.

Before you start pulling and running around, talk to each member about their skill choices and abilities/weapons. Make a gameplan and go after it. I've done plenty of level 12 - 18 dungeons without a heavy armor wearing player. Even without melee.

Also, I'd personally like to add, never run into a room or a group. If you don't have a skill or weapon that does a single attack at a ranged distance, you shouldn't be starting the fights.

Also, when you play, don't run around aimlessly and jump around. Stand still until you need to move or dodge to stay out of fire, AOE or attacks. Block often and try and stay close together but not so close that you can't see and interpret what the npc your focus is on, is doing.

Kill one NPC at a time rather than trying to AOE them all down, unless that is the gameplan discussed.

*The bottom line is, talk, communicate, and plan as just running in will for sure cost a lot and use a lot of soul gems.

Conclusion:
This game is not like any game you've played before..we all have to learn, adjust, be flexible and adapt.

coryevans_3b14_ESO · April 2014

Haboom wrote: »

I'd like the group selection to be more robust with questions like:

1. Do you know how to block?
2. How do you dodge?
3. Can you see the Pool of Death you are currently standing in?

LOL as a healer i heartily agree with this.

Wolfpaw · April 2014

I didn't know much about the dungeon content in this game prior to release, but I did know it was a trinity based game. I can only hope dungeons will not be catered to dps groups, that's what GW2 is for, and why I no longer play that kind of game.

From playing other trinity games there's not much that can be done, we already have roles we can choose in the lfg tool.

If someone is not playing their proper role they joined in on (healer focused on dps & not heals or a DK tank wearing cloth/Dstaff shooting fire everywhere for example) the only thing that can be done that I know of is form a new group w/o those players.

onibubu · April 2014

Izzban wrote: »

What's the difference?
4 man groups reduce complexity and simplify encounters. Devs like this, players don't.
It's simple, the more players in the group, the more complex.

WRONG, most people like faceroll content.
That's the reason why most content in most MMO today is faceroll content.

Your second statement is also false.
More people doesn't mean more complex... just look at vanilla wow.
And no, it wasn't hard. It was time consuming and grindy.
The difficulty of the raids back then where literally a joke.

And where is the problem?
Arent we getting 10 man raids in ESO? Just do them if you dont like how dungeons work.

Izzban wrote: »

What's the problem?
The problem is that most players prefer a DPS role in groups....

Yes that's correct. It's the role with the "least" responsibility.
But as another one wrote here.
If zenimax makes the dungeons so that you dont need healer or tanks... why are this roles here in the first place?

If I want to play soccer with my friends one has to be the goalkeeper.
Nobody wants to... but somebody has to do it or we cant play.
In reality everyone understands that.
In an MMO everyone whines like a little child.
I'll never get it!

Rhastah · April 2014

Some of the problem with this is that many new players (and most of us are new players) don't know how to set their role. I've had to instruct several people on how to set their role(s) after the group was formed and inside the instance.

The group finder lets you search for a group without choosing any roles, then seemingly randomly assigns one or two roles to you. I had a guy who was set to tank and healer but didn't want to do either. Not sure how the group finder managed to do that, but there it is.

Hopefully once people learn to set their roles properly this problem will mostly go away. Also would be nice if the UI forced you to choose at least one role before hitting the search button.