Ice Staff might not be good for DPS, but it's excelent for tanks right now. I think the issue we have is that most players are PvErs, while the pure frost theme builds would work a lot better on PvP scenarios as a group support, through snares, roots and CC.

Blockade of Frost is really strong, 60% snare is nothing to laugh at. Helps both PvE tanking (non-DKs or just maintaining crusher uptime) and PvP tanking since the snare is so strong. Combine it with a Frost enchant, it will instantly snare the first enemy hit on most occasions, really strong.

Crushing Shock, really strong skill for PvE tanking. The block passives from Ice Staff allows you to effectively tank with a destro back without having to worry about switching to front bar to block. Also allows you to have more sustain by using your Magicka Pool to tank for a bit, although I personally prefer not taking Tri-Focus and using stamina to block, since If I get out of magicka I can't cast my healing skills to survive.

I mean to be fair, you can definitly make a pure Ice theme Warden and dominate large scale PvP. It's really strong. I think the only other class that can fit a pure theme build is DK by being pure Fire, while Sorc doesn't really go full lightning, although I feel it does do the theme of a Sorc really well. Overall I think Ice is really strong if you take a different approach and view it from different angles. Sure, it's not that strong for DPS, but maybe it wasn't meant for PvE DPS, just like you don't go around in Heavy Armor + S/B trying to DPS.

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Ice is friggin cold, it's not nice like fire. What you rather be, northpole and freeze to death? Or lie on wonderful beach with hot sun, palms, pina coladas and nice girls?

The north. Winterborn dont get cold 😎

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Unit117 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The Ice Staff is in a great place right now and is integral to many builds.

Not putting points into tri focus allows block to still cost stam, no heavy attack taunt, but gives you a access to beneficial destro passives.

Many MagDK in pvp rely on Sword and shield with ice staff because being able block cast certain skills are required for survival.

You can dps perfectly fine with an ice staff by simply not putting any points int trifocus passive.

Im going to completely disagree with you. It’s in a bad place. It’s supposed to be a magic tanking option and it’s fun to use but it’s not good or are par with other tanks or dps where it should be.

Not by itself no. It was designed as a complimentaryitem to sword and shield, and to excel at cc and debuffing an enemy. In PvP, ice is certainly a viable option; with or without the tri focus passive.

A dps is taking a major hit in damage using a ice staff-

Yes they are, I one hundred percent agree. They are gaining their magicka pool as their blocking pool and minor maim from the chilled effect (team utility too in the root, if the tank is not able to smack every single add with talons/icy grip) in exchange. 2h is not the #1 choice in pve dps because it gives up damage abilities, utility and passives for survivability as does the ice staff.

-and a tank is just all around left of tank with it. You are suggesting that it’s being run with sword and board which alone shows a problem for.

Ice staff alone is inferior to sword and shield run in tandem with an ice staff, correct. So is two sword and shield, however, inferior to one of each. They work better together than apart, it is no different for dual s&b.

Ice staff needs looking into 100%

Certainly could be QoL upgrades, on that I wholeheartedly agree. I genuinely wonder how people would feel about all staves treating heavy attacks like lightning or restoration staves...

No need to do backflips to make logic work. Compare tanking with a ice staff to tanking with a sword better in vet dlc pve. It straight up underperforms compared to snb with big problems. To it. It should be on par with snb as a tanking weapon not just compliment it as a side kick.

If it’s so great where are all the phenomenal ice staff builds in the internet. All I find are forums confirming how bad it is. No one makes good builds for it. Because it is in a bad spot currently and has no competitive place in the game. If it did we would see it on Alcasts Page with everyone copying it.

Unit117 wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Unit117 wrote: »

Aluneth wrote: »

I agree 110%. Before this happens, I want them to revert the change to Arctic Blast.

I want them to revert and buff its max heal lol

I want them to change it so it does what it did before, but scales off of max magicka instead of max health.

Oh no. I can’t agree with that. I’m ice staff tank that builds off max health. I sit at 55k xD honestly it should be a base effect and let’s us choose which route to take with it

Guys, master plan. Remember!!!

Add old arctic blast to arctic wind so polar becomes defacto tank morph.

Then remove tank heal from new arctic blast and add back a magicka and spell damage scaling version of old blasts damage. Can make the projectile do a decent amount of frost damage OR also apply that aoe field around the enemy too. Maybe also reduce cost a bit too. Aoe comes first. People want that back so it must be granted.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Unit117 wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Unit117 wrote: »

Aluneth wrote: »

I agree 110%. Before this happens, I want them to revert the change to Arctic Blast.

I want them to revert and buff its max heal lol

I want them to change it so it does what it did before, but scales off of max magicka instead of max health.

Oh no. I can’t agree with that. I’m ice staff tank that builds off max health. I sit at 55k xD honestly it should be a base effect and let’s us choose which route to take with it

Guys, master plan. Remember!!!

Add old arctic blast to arctic wind so polar becomes defacto tank morph.

Then remove tank heal from new arctic blast and add back a magicka and spell damage scaling version of old blasts damage. Can make the projectile do a decent amount of frost damage OR also applty that aoe field around the enemy too. Maybe also reduce cost a bit too. Aoe comes first. People want that back so it must be granted.

The two versions like that would be so much better. I agree revert it and upgrade routes please lol

They should give Nords an ice damage passive similar to the Dark Elf fire passive. I would be OK with giving up Reveler even though that 15 minute bonus to drinks can be strong for certain builds.

I do like the suggestions of stealing skills from Ice mage npcs as well

I would love to see a Nord Warden Cryomancer be a viable build option.

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

If you like ice so much why don't you go live in the north pole? Oh that's right! Nobody lives in the north pole because ice sucks.

Checkmate, brother!

Ice is the best and Santa lives there because it’s the best. More ice please! 😤

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

If you like ice so much why don't you go live in the north pole? Oh that's right! Nobody lives in the north pole because ice sucks.

Checkmate, brother!

I’m from Finland and it’s the home of Santa and is classed as part of the North Pole, it is one of the most beautiful places in the world the air is fresh and clean and we Fins are happy with ice and it’s slidy not sucks

So how you say Checkmate

Unit117 wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Unit117 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The Ice Staff is in a great place right now and is integral to many builds.

Not putting points into tri focus allows block to still cost stam, no heavy attack taunt, but gives you a access to beneficial destro passives.

Many MagDK in pvp rely on Sword and shield with ice staff because being able block cast certain skills are required for survival.

You can dps perfectly fine with an ice staff by simply not putting any points int trifocus passive.

Im going to completely disagree with you. It’s in a bad place. It’s supposed to be a magic tanking option and it’s fun to use but it’s not good or are par with other tanks or dps where it should be.

Not by itself no. It was designed as a complimentaryitem to sword and shield, and to excel at cc and debuffing an enemy. In PvP, ice is certainly a viable option; with or without the tri focus passive.

A dps is taking a major hit in damage using a ice staff-

Yes they are, I one hundred percent agree. They are gaining their magicka pool as their blocking pool and minor maim from the chilled effect (team utility too in the root, if the tank is not able to smack every single add with talons/icy grip) in exchange. 2h is not the #1 choice in pve dps because it gives up damage abilities, utility and passives for survivability as does the ice staff.

-and a tank is just all around left of tank with it. You are suggesting that it’s being run with sword and board which alone shows a problem for.

Ice staff alone is inferior to sword and shield run in tandem with an ice staff, correct. So is two sword and shield, however, inferior to one of each. They work better together than apart, it is no different for dual s&b.

Ice staff needs looking into 100%

Certainly could be QoL upgrades, on that I wholeheartedly agree. I genuinely wonder how people would feel about all staves treating heavy attacks like lightning or restoration staves...

No need to do backflips to make logic work. Compare tanking with a ice staff to tanking with a sword better in vet dlc pve. It straight up underperforms compared to snb with big problems. To it. It should be on par with snb as a tanking weapon not just compliment it as a side kick.

If it’s so great where are all the phenomenal ice staff builds in the internet. All I find are forums confirming how bad it is. No one makes good builds for it. Because it is in a bad spot currently and has no competitive place in the game. If it did we would see it on Alcasts Page with everyone copying it.

Firstly, why did you not respond to the assertion I made about its efficacy in pvp or it being like 2h? Genuinely curious.

Secondly I'm not "doing backflips". Your exact words were, and I quote,

You are suggesting that it’s being run with sword and board which alone shows a problem for.

Your argument was that if it is being run with sword and board it must be inferior. I was saying that if you follow that logic to its natural conclusion, then the fact that one of each is better means that sword and shield must also be underperforming as it doesn't give some of the buffs and utility ice staves do.

You moved the goalposts stating that an ice-ice is not on par with a dual sword and shield (which I'm not so sure of, but for brevity's sake I'll accept at face value).

I understand your frustration, but you must understand two things.

A- Alcast is a great player and writes a lot of helpful guides, but even he would never assert he makes or even displays the best possible build. In fact, iirc his site actually even states his setups are meant as templates for you to lean into your style or more effective builds.

B-
(Sherman's build)
https://youtu.be/0L0wbLzqgRA

(Andy S, fantastic player and a vHoF example of ice staff+sword and shield)
https://youtu.be/NEG1D_jg0-c

(Godless Captive's fine performance main tanking vMoL)
https://youtu.be/Xefpq6vPS1M

Ice staves back bar and sword and shield up front outshines either alone. As someone who has personally run this setup since morrowind, I have to say it works.

So how would one go about giving this a dps buff without making it mandatory/overperforming for pvp? How would one improve it for tanking without outshining sword and shield to the point of not even picking it?

Edit: cleaning up mistakes. Darned phone!

Unit117 wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Unit117 wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Unit117 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The Ice Staff is in a great place right now and is integral to many builds.

Not putting points into tri focus allows block to still cost stam, no heavy attack taunt, but gives you a access to beneficial destro passives.

Many MagDK in pvp rely on Sword and shield with ice staff because being able block cast certain skills are required for survival.

You can dps perfectly fine with an ice staff by simply not putting any points int trifocus passive.

Im going to completely disagree with you. It’s in a bad place. It’s supposed to be a magic tanking option and it’s fun to use but it’s not good or are par with other tanks or dps where it should be.

Not by itself no. It was designed as a complimentaryitem to sword and shield, and to excel at cc and debuffing an enemy. In PvP, ice is certainly a viable option; with or without the tri focus passive.

A dps is taking a major hit in damage using a ice staff-

Yes they are, I one hundred percent agree. They are gaining their magicka pool as their blocking pool and minor maim from the chilled effect (team utility too in the root, if the tank is not able to smack every single add with talons/icy grip) in exchange. 2h is not the #1 choice in pve dps because it gives up damage abilities, utility and passives for survivability as does the ice staff.

-and a tank is just all around left of tank with it. You are suggesting that it’s being run with sword and board which alone shows a problem for.

Ice staff alone is inferior to sword and shield run in tandem with an ice staff, correct. So is two sword and shield, however, inferior to one of each. They work better together than apart, it is no different for dual s&b.

Ice staff needs looking into 100%

Certainly could be QoL upgrades, on that I wholeheartedly agree. I genuinely wonder how people would feel about all staves treating heavy attacks like lightning or restoration staves...

No need to do backflips to make logic work. Compare tanking with a ice staff to tanking with a sword better in vet dlc pve. It straight up underperforms compared to snb with big problems. To it. It should be on par with snb as a tanking weapon not just compliment it as a side kick.

If it’s so great where are all the phenomenal ice staff builds in the internet. All I find are forums confirming how bad it is. No one makes good builds for it. Because it is in a bad spot currently and has no competitive place in the game. If it did we would see it on Alcasts Page with everyone copying it.

Firstly, why did you not respond to the assertion I made about its efficacy in pvp or it being like 2h? Genuinely curious.

Secondly I'm not "doing backflips". Your exact words were, and I quote,

You are suggesting that it’s being run with sword and board which alone shows a problem for.

Your argument was that if it is being run with sword and board it must be inferior. I was saying that if you follow that logic to its natural conclusion, then the fact that one of each is better means that sword and shield must also be underperforming as it doesn't give some of the buffs and utility ice staves do.

You moved the goalposts stating that an ice-ice is not on par with a dual sword and shield (which I'm not so sure of, but for brevity's sake I'll accept at face value).

I understand your frustration, but you must understand two things.

A- Alcast is a great player and writes a lot of helpful guides, but even he would never assert he makes or even displays the best possible build. In fact, iirc his site actually even states his setups are meant as templates for you to lean into your style or more effective builds.

B-
(Sherman's build)
https://youtu.be/0L0wbLzqgRA

(Andy S, fantastic player and a vHoF example of ice staff+sword and shield)
https://youtu.be/NEG1D_jg0-c

(Godless Captive's fine performance main tanking vMoL)
https://youtu.be/Xefpq6vPS1M

Ice staves back bar and sword and shield up front outshines either alone. As someone who has personally run this setup since morrowind, I have to say it works.

So how would one go about giving this a dps buff without making it mandatory/overperforming for pvp? How would one improve it for tanking without outshining sword and shield to the point of not even picking it?

Edit: cleaning up mistakes. Darned phone!

1.i don’t do pvp. Never liked it.

Shame, that. You're missing out on some fun! When it doesn't-

Cyrodil always crashes and lags.

Yeah. That xD

About the 2h it provides both. It still does a ton of single target damage where ice straight up does not compared to the other 2 staffs. It has utility great. But that only goes so far.

2h is less damage than dual wield in any scenario other than aoe damage, and even then dw has an aoe execute with an execute passive. Trash melts no matter which build you run.

It’s trade offs aren’t currently worth it and why almost no one uses it.

I'm going to have to disagree. I run ice staff on all my tanks. All of them, every last one. What specifically is an ice staff tank missing that a sword and shield tank has?

2. My argument is not “ Your argument was that if it is being run with sword and board it must be inferior.” My argument is 2 ice staves should be on a viable level of tanking as 2 snb.

Oh, well that's very different from the statement you made (that I directly quoted you saying). I'll address this then!

If both work together great. But 2 snb works just great without the ice staff. The same can not be said about running 2 ice staves. It’s straight up inferior to snb which is why no one runs double ice staff.

How so? What is ice missing that sword and shield has? This isn't a gotcha- I'm genuinely asking.

Your problem is you are only looking at it as “oh just run both together so it’s good”. That doesn’t make the ice staff good. That just means snb is enough to cover for it. Look at it as running just snb and then running just ice staff to fairly compare the 2 taking methods.

Done both, actually. They're neck and neck, with each having unique benefits the other cannot boast.

I have 4 tanks. 2 are double snb, 1 is snb/ice staff, and 1 2 ice staves. Both of the 2 snb clearly out shine and the ice staff and it’s blatantly obvious to me how bad the ice staff currently is.

Why?

3. I tried deltas build it’s mediocre. And struggles with harder content. It’s a “fun build”. Just listen to him talk in the beginning. He struggled to make it a viable option. Even he knows that ice staves are bad right now.

Dunno what Deltia (who I assume you're talking about) has to do with the three separate people I gave you as examples. Also, to be frank, Him saying they are bad and you saying they are bad is about equal to me. I'd ask him, and am asking you; Why, specifically?

It’s not on par with other tanking 2 snb builds by a long shot and it shows
Where the the ice staff needs the snb but the snb doesn’t need the ice staff.

If I may interrupt; Why? You've said this six times so far and said deltia said it once. Why are they inferior? What specifics can you articulate?

There’s plenty of 2snb builds but where are all the 2 ice stave builds that thrive at end game content like snb does? There really aren’t any because it’s lacking compared to snb.

Seven.

In all. You aren’t going to give a fair comparison until you look at the 2 seperate

Let's do it together; what is Ice missing that sword and shield has?

SilverIce58 wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Zos hates anything that isn't Nightblade...

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Ice is friggin cold, it's not nice like fire. What you rather be, northpole and freeze to death? Or lie on wondhttps://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/post/quote/445196/comment_5600889erful beach with hot sun, palms, pina coladas and nice girls?

As an Australian i'd rather the north pole... Heat is horrible...

Honestly same. As a Floridian, with year round sun, its not all its cracked up to be. Especially when you walk outside and you start sweating 5 min later from the slightest physical activity.

Ice is much better.

As a fellow Floridian, I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

There is no way they'll ever make ice as generally good for DPS as fire or lightning, for reasons previously stated.

But they could do it on a more specialized basis. Wardens' ice damage could be further buffed. Nords could get an ice damage buff. Wardens could get a skill that CONVERTS other damage into ice (which as we know gets a damage buff for them). Etc. And by the way, magdens and Nords both need a bit of buffing of some kind.

I definitely don’t think it should be as strong. But I think it should be considered as strong dps option. The gap currently just isn’t great for ice.

Unit117 wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Unit117 wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Unit117 wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Unit117 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The Ice Staff is in a great place right now and is integral to many builds.

Not putting points into tri focus allows block to still cost stam, no heavy attack taunt, but gives you a access to beneficial destro passives.

Many MagDK in pvp rely on Sword and shield with ice staff because being able block cast certain skills are required for survival.

You can dps perfectly fine with an ice staff by simply not putting any points int trifocus passive.

Im going to completely disagree with you. It’s in a bad place. It’s supposed to be a magic tanking option and it’s fun to use but it’s not good or are par with other tanks or dps where it should be.

Not by itself no. It was designed as a complimentaryitem to sword and shield, and to excel at cc and debuffing an enemy. In PvP, ice is certainly a viable option; with or without the tri focus passive.

A dps is taking a major hit in damage using a ice staff-

Yes they are, I one hundred percent agree. They are gaining their magicka pool as their blocking pool and minor maim from the chilled effect (team utility too in the root, if the tank is not able to smack every single add with talons/icy grip) in exchange. 2h is not the #1 choice in pve dps because it gives up damage abilities, utility and passives for survivability as does the ice staff.

-and a tank is just all around left of tank with it. You are suggesting that it’s being run with sword and board which alone shows a problem for.

Ice staff alone is inferior to sword and shield run in tandem with an ice staff, correct. So is two sword and shield, however, inferior to one of each. They work better together than apart, it is no different for dual s&b.

Ice staff needs looking into 100%

Certainly could be QoL upgrades, on that I wholeheartedly agree. I genuinely wonder how people would feel about all staves treating heavy attacks like lightning or restoration staves...

No need to do backflips to make logic work. Compare tanking with a ice staff to tanking with a sword better in vet dlc pve. It straight up underperforms compared to snb with big problems. To it. It should be on par with snb as a tanking weapon not just compliment it as a side kick.

If it’s so great where are all the phenomenal ice staff builds in the internet. All I find are forums confirming how bad it is. No one makes good builds for it. Because it is in a bad spot currently and has no competitive place in the game. If it did we would see it on Alcasts Page with everyone copying it.

Firstly, why did you not respond to the assertion I made about its efficacy in pvp or it being like 2h? Genuinely curious.

Secondly I'm not "doing backflips". Your exact words were, and I quote,

You are suggesting that it’s being run with sword and board which alone shows a problem for.

Your argument was that if it is being run with sword and board it must be inferior. I was saying that if you follow that logic to its natural conclusion, then the fact that one of each is better means that sword and shield must also be underperforming as it doesn't give some of the buffs and utility ice staves do.

You moved the goalposts stating that an ice-ice is not on par with a dual sword and shield (which I'm not so sure of, but for brevity's sake I'll accept at face value).

I understand your frustration, but you must understand two things.

A- Alcast is a great player and writes a lot of helpful guides, but even he would never assert he makes or even displays the best possible build. In fact, iirc his site actually even states his setups are meant as templates for you to lean into your style or more effective builds.

B-
(Sherman's build)
https://youtu.be/0L0wbLzqgRA

(Andy S, fantastic player and a vHoF example of ice staff+sword and shield)
https://youtu.be/NEG1D_jg0-c

(Godless Captive's fine performance main tanking vMoL)
https://youtu.be/Xefpq6vPS1M

Ice staves back bar and sword and shield up front outshines either alone. As someone who has personally run this setup since morrowind, I have to say it works.

So how would one go about giving this a dps buff without making it mandatory/overperforming for pvp? How would one improve it for tanking without outshining sword and shield to the point of not even picking it?

Edit: cleaning up mistakes. Darned phone!

1.i don’t do pvp. Never liked it.

Shame, that. You're missing out on some fun! When it doesn't-

Cyrodil always crashes and lags.

Yeah. That xD

About the 2h it provides both. It still does a ton of single target damage where ice straight up does not compared to the other 2 staffs. It has utility great. But that only goes so far.

2h is less damage than dual wield in any scenario other than aoe damage, and even then dw has an aoe execute with an execute passive. Trash melts no matter which build you run.

It’s trade offs aren’t currently worth it and why almost no one uses it.

I'm going to have to disagree. I run ice staff on all my tanks. All of them, every last one. What specifically is an ice staff tank missing that a sword and shield tank has?

2. My argument is not “ Your argument was that if it is being run with sword and board it must be inferior.” My argument is 2 ice staves should be on a viable level of tanking as 2 snb.

Oh, well that's very different from the statement you made (that I directly quoted you saying). I'll address this then!

If both work together great. But 2 snb works just great without the ice staff. The same can not be said about running 2 ice staves. It’s straight up inferior to snb which is why no one runs double ice staff.

How so? What is ice missing that sword and shield has? This isn't a gotcha- I'm genuinely asking.

Your problem is you are only looking at it as “oh just run both together so it’s good”. That doesn’t make the ice staff good. That just means snb is enough to cover for it. Look at it as running just snb and then running just ice staff to fairly compare the 2 taking methods.

Done both, actually. They're neck and neck, with each having unique benefits the other cannot boast.

I have 4 tanks. 2 are double snb, 1 is snb/ice staff, and 1 2 ice staves. Both of the 2 snb clearly out shine and the ice staff and it’s blatantly obvious to me how bad the ice staff currently is.

Why?

3. I tried deltas build it’s mediocre. And struggles with harder content. It’s a “fun build”. Just listen to him talk in the beginning. He struggled to make it a viable option. Even he knows that ice staves are bad right now.

Dunno what Deltia (who I assume you're talking about) has to do with the three separate people I gave you as examples. Also, to be frank, Him saying they are bad and you saying they are bad is about equal to me. I'd ask him, and am asking you; Why, specifically?

It’s not on par with other tanking 2 snb builds by a long shot and it shows
Where the the ice staff needs the snb but the snb doesn’t need the ice staff.

If I may interrupt; Why? You've said this six times so far and said deltia said it once. Why are they inferior? What specifics can you articulate?

There’s plenty of 2snb builds but where are all the 2 ice stave builds that thrive at end game content like snb does? There really aren’t any because it’s lacking compared to snb.

Seven.

In all. You aren’t going to give a fair comparison until you look at the 2 seperate

Let's do it together; what is Ice missing that sword and shield has?

Thank you for providing articulated reasons. This will let us debate them on their merits

Alright big problems:
1: lack of way to reduce physical and spell resistance together. You have 2 slot 2 seperate skills. Which is harder on the rotation and more expensive. Let’s not forget sword and shield have a cheap ability that can do both and taunt simultaneously.

Correct. Sword and shield can taunt and armor debuff at the same time. The ice staff debuff does more than mess with resistances, however. When you're discussing elemental drain, you're getting magicka back every second you're damaging the enemy. That means that even while blocking (and before talking your class based methods of maintaining your blocking resource) you're looking at the equivalent of 600 regen through block. By the by, if you have a stamina dk, nb (guaranteed), or warden in your raid/dungeon, they will provide this buff for you.

2. It’s wind up for a heavy attack taunt. It’s slow, will stop randomly on its own or go for a random target. I have it hit enemies behind me all the time. Gets canceled by enemies. It struggles with maintaining control of multiple targets. It needs to be faster and a better method.

The heavy attack is not your only taunt. The ranged taunt in the undaunted skill line, inner fire, allows you to safely, from block, instantly taunt adds and the boss, while providing a synergy for allies to activate (which restores resistances and does damage based on the ally that activates it- it makes a big mark when a dps gets it). If your allies have undaunted maxxed, they also get sustain from activating this synergy.

I don't use heavy attack taunt in situations where I have to be prudent, but there's only one fight I can think of off the top of my head where you have no opportunity to drop block, and it's AA last boss while holding the axes. Skilled players can sometimes do it, but I would not risk it. Luckily for that fight you never have to even taunt- if you're far enough away that your team's aoe never smacks an axe, once you pull them in and lay down wall of elements you have their aggro for the rest of the fight.

3. The shield is too weak. Ice staves are supposed to be built around it’s heavy attack where it can provide you with a constant shield. The shield Breaks immediately even by weak trash mobs. It doesnt do much to adding to your survivability.

The shield is a bit less than igneous, but also now gets access to your resistances (which should more or less cut incoming damage to your shield by half). For reference, a meager 3k shield actually blocks 9,792 dmg (after cp and resists, with maim). This goes to 10,643 if you have minor protection up. That said, I'm curious why you think it was built *around* heavy attacks, rather than that being a feature you can elect to use?

4. Vulnerability to cc. Because you maintain a heavy attack rotation instead of mostly blocking you are vulnerable to getting hit by a random knockback or stun more often. Which in a dungeon is a complete death sentence. This makes using the ice staff less of a safe option.

No no no, I do not use a heavy attack rotation. You may, and that is fine if you elect to, but the ice staff is perfectly capable of maintaining permablock when you're including elemental drain and wall of elements. Not only that, but almost every boss in the game has a 2-3 second window for you to safely heavy attack with any weapon.

5. It’s block is worse. Your block is there for you to take on heavy hits that your shield and abilities can’t handle and most likely one shot you. Blocking on a ice staff is both really expensive and blocks for a lot less. In bosses like the bloodroot forge. It’s you either block draining a huge chunk of magic and still take 32k damage through your block. Or get one shot for around 52k to 65k damage. Now imagine maintaining this with 3 bosses breaking down and maintains agro on all 3 with a expensive taunt or heavy attack. Forget even trying to lower both resistances. While mainting your other abilities to try and keep yourself alive.

For the bold, I'm not really sure where you get that information from. Perhaps you can tell me? Sword and shield gets (from its passives) a 36% cost reduction and a 20% damage mitigation from block. And...so does Ice staff, through one passive: Ancient knowledge. Am I missing something?

To the point about one shots- that seems like a managing resources and taunt problem. Both ice staff and sword and shield have to deal with that.

6. Snb’s shield counts towards your resistance. Ice staff does not.

Assuming both weapons are running infused for crusher/reduce weapon damage, let's check this out. A nirnhoned (best trait for raw defense, if that's what you're going for) shield gives a grand total of around 1k health (spare enchantment) and just upwards (by 21 to be exact) of 2k resistances at gold. Quick math; A 200k hit one a tank with an ice staff vs a tank with a sword and shield, assuming identical cp and both blocking with all passives unlocked?

s&s: 200,000 x .89 x .81 (cp) x.4 (block with 20% passive) x.6 (25k-ish resists. You'll have more, but it'll highlight my point) x .85 (maim)= 29,413.
staff: 200,000 x .89 x .81 (cp) x.4 (block with 20% passive) x.629 (23k-ish resists. You'll have more, but it'll highlight my point) x .85 (maim)= 30,834.

It's next to negligible. Btw, if you hit armor cap (or get super close to it) this disadvatage simply doesn't exist.

7. Ult charge and abilities. Snb provides a lot of ult charge options to keep using your defensive ult when you need to. Ice staff does not have anything like that. Also all the snb ablilites aid in boss fights in some way. the ice staff is stuck to the destruction line where almost all abilities are useless. You have weakness of elements but that only does 1 of 3 things pierce does. Impulse is a dps move offers nothing to a tank, 2 cc slow or immobilizes that bosses are immune to anyways, and force shock. Another dps move. It needs abilities that actually help keep it alive in a boss fight and maintain control while providing for the team. It would be nice to have ability that provides a strong shield for you that fits into your heavy attack rotation. Where snb is more block focused ice staff is more maintaining shields focused.

Bold: You're discussing heroic slash, right? I don't know of any other ultimate management abilities sword and shield has. It grants minor heroism, providing roughly 6.67 ultimate per second. In actuality, it is 1 ultimate every 1.5 seconds for 9 seconds- meaning you must activate the ability (at a 2,650 or more cost) every 9 seconds. This brings you to a stamina drain of just under 300/s, or the equivalent of 600 regen for 6.67 ultimate per second. Now to me, that isn't worth it. To others it may be- but it certainly does not come without cost.

Elemental drain grants you the equivalent of 600 magicka regen while blocking. It is not used for the same reasons pierce armor is.

Pulsar can mangle enemies, bringing them to execute quicker for your steel tornado friends and making trash packs easier, and impulse is a ranged aoe you can use to grab aggro at the start of the fight. Neither of those things does shield have.

That you neglect the ranged interupt you have in force pulse means to me you *might* not have tried it. Yoju can interupt from the safety of range, which a sword and shield cannot do.

There is an irony in requesting control abilities on an ice staff compared to a shield. blockade of ice is *fantastic* for both CC, snare, root, and grabbing aggro. Sword and shield can not aoe snare, cannot root at all, and offers no aoe ability bar one ability you lose minor heroism for that doesn't affect bosses.

8. Set synergy. Ice staves alone force you into a narrow selection of sets. Where snb since it offers more survivalbilty can run sets that help the whole team like Ebon. Where ice staves are pushed more towards max health just to tank the hits that would kill them through thier block if they didn’t. This rules out things like light armor tanking through shields because there are no light armor health sets like Ebon or plague doctors. Or even strong enough heavy armor damage shield sets.

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe it. My only two ice staff exclusive tanks (warden before shalk debuff nerf, and nb after) used the -exact- same setup as my sword and shield tanks (if you're wondering, torug and ebon/plague, depending on content. Never was a big fan of alkosh for a wide variety of well documented reasons- I can try to find the typeup I did if you like.

These are the ones that come to me off the top of my head

And these are the benefits no double sword and shield could ever hope to get without sacrificing something, if even then.

Ranged interupt,
Aoe snare/root,
backbar enchant at 100% uptime,
taunt that restores resouces,
damage shield on heavy attack,
ranged heavy attack,
mangle,
magicka steal,
100% maim uptime,
aoe maim.

They're not optimal separate, they're optimal together. No matter what you end up doing to ice staff, you'll either still need to run one of each, or simply make it the only thing you'd ever need anyway. Neither sound that good to me as options. If I may, I think the reason you don't see many people running only ice staff is that it is more difficult than sword and shield. That would explain why people running for the highest scores don't use just ice staves (the same way they don't use templar, sorc, or nightblade tanks despite those all being viable options for clearing content). As my previous post shows, plenty use an ice staff in endgame content- just not alone.

If you are not willing to accept the shortcomings of your particular weapon, that is fine! I will then expect you to argue for a ranged interupt on sword and shield, as well as a way to keep backbar enchants up 100% of the time, and aoe snares, and, and, and.


edit: Fixed quote errors. I make them often it seems.

@DocFrost72 dude I’m going to be real with you. I’m not trying to have a long debate on generally accepted issue. Of ice being the red head step child that generally gets a sigh when seen in a hard vet dungeon. I really don’t want to spend my Sunday debating.

I disagree with you a lot of those issues. Short version: none of those add up to the value of snb in a dungeon. Trash mobs are hardly ever a problem. All I know is I get for a lot more blocking with the staff, the heavy attack for shield and taunt with block high damage is clearly what is was meant to played as or it would have made to since for the oddly specific passive. The intention for it being a new way to tank was clear. Also bosses are immune almost that whole lid the shield gets wiped immediately by trash mobs.

If you disagree cool post a video with average dps and heals on all the dlc dungeons and trials of your run as a pure ice staff tank with a group that can’t rush and carry you through the mechanics. I’ll happily watch it.

But based on my gameplay, the communities outlook and talking to other tanks. I feel very firmly they are heavily underpowered in pve especially when compared to a snb