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Do people who complain about "nerfs" only have one character?
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ImmortalCX✭✭✭✭✭Doesn't matter if you could just buy a fully leveled fully geared character from the store, that hit to the ego is going to make people feel some type of way.
Do you think the hit to the ego is because the game company is saying "You had it too easy. All those wins that you were getting... were basically because we made a prior mistake in making your character too strong." In essence, causing the player to question any prior success they had.
I think when people exploit overpowered mechanics, they pretty much know what they are doing, and also know that it has to end some time.1 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ImmortalCX wrote: »What does the magsorc class representative say about the changes?
Hopefully whatever reflects the player bases pain points and issues and not what they themselves feel is relevant or fair. A representative is not a leader to make singular choices, they are a conduit of information from the masses to the people who are making the change
Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.1 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ImmortalCX wrote: »ImmortalCX wrote: »One of the good aspects of the CP system is that its easy to develop alts. I leveled two alts 3-50 during the last holiday. It was surprisingly little work to do the dolmen grind, and the free skill points handed out from leveling means you can advance all your combat skill lines without having to explore or quest. I believe there are 3 or 4 of these 100% xp events per year.
Because of the way gear drops work in dungeons, I already have many healing, tanking, and mag dps sets ready for these new characters.
I realize that the game will change, that some classes will become less entertaining, or less powerful. Players will adapt, or they will quit. But lets not pretend that getting another character into "fighting shape" takes much work at all.
If they completely nerfed my stamblade, I would just switch to one of my new characters. Which tells me that people who take balance nerfs this "seriously" feel like they are locked into a single character/playstyle. And that just isn't true. Its incredibly easy to level an alt (or two, or three.)
So why do people ragequit when meta changes? I would certainly understand it, if the game was like WOW where a new character took months of development. But getting an ESO toon from 3-50 takes 10-20 hours of playing.
While you might be able to knock out 10-20 hours of playing in a day or two, this might take many people a couple of weeks or more. Not everyone can play more than a couple of hours a day, a few days a week. I have a few mag characters, but havent really ventured into stam, and only 2 that are fully leveled. Luckily, one is a beast magplar, with channeled focus and resistances out the wazoo. Unfortunately, the other is a magsorc. Not sure how I will proceed with him, since he was already squishy if I didnt have his ward up at all times. Now, with 30% of the ward he had (without making any changes), I will have to find resitances and more health. Any way you work that, there will be a significant loss of dps. Now if I was a stamblade, no problem, lose a few K dps, I’ll manage, but magsorc already has sustain and dps issues. So losing a few K dps makes you a liability to the group. (I’m focused on endgame pve. I realize that pvp should be easier to adapt.).
What does the magsorc class representative say about the changes?
It wasn't just sorcs that felt the "balancing." Every magicka class that used harness magicka, sorcs, and even the front side heal of ward.
You dont have to ask what they think, you can see for yourself. Some have commented or spoken about it on the PTS forums. Also a large number of people testing them during the PTS cycle. It should be apparent fairly quickly that the opposition to the change isnt isolated to magicka sorcerers.2 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ImmortalCX wrote: »ImmortalCX wrote: »One of the good aspects of the CP system is that its easy to develop alts. I leveled two alts 3-50 during the last holiday. It was surprisingly little work to do the dolmen grind, and the free skill points handed out from leveling means you can advance all your combat skill lines without having to explore or quest. I believe there are 3 or 4 of these 100% xp events per year.
Because of the way gear drops work in dungeons, I already have many healing, tanking, and mag dps sets ready for these new characters.
I realize that the game will change, that some classes will become less entertaining, or less powerful. Players will adapt, or they will quit. But lets not pretend that getting another character into "fighting shape" takes much work at all.
If they completely nerfed my stamblade, I would just switch to one of my new characters. Which tells me that people who take balance nerfs this "seriously" feel like they are locked into a single character/playstyle. And that just isn't true. Its incredibly easy to level an alt (or two, or three.)
So why do people ragequit when meta changes? I would certainly understand it, if the game was like WOW where a new character took months of development. But getting an ESO toon from 3-50 takes 10-20 hours of playing.
While you might be able to knock out 10-20 hours of playing in a day or two, this might take many people a couple of weeks or more. Not everyone can play more than a couple of hours a day, a few days a week. I have a few mag characters, but havent really ventured into stam, and only 2 that are fully leveled. Luckily, one is a beast magplar, with channeled focus and resistances out the wazoo. Unfortunately, the other is a magsorc. Not sure how I will proceed with him, since he was already squishy if I didnt have his ward up at all times. Now, with 30% of the ward he had (without making any changes), I will have to find resitances and more health. Any way you work that, there will be a significant loss of dps. Now if I was a stamblade, no problem, lose a few K dps, I’ll manage, but magsorc already has sustain and dps issues. So losing a few K dps makes you a liability to the group. (I’m focused on endgame pve. I realize that pvp should be easier to adapt.).
What does the magsorc class representative say about the changes?
He plays his main, that is, his Nightblade. Yes, magsorcs managed to have a class rep that does not play magsorc as main character...Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO1 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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I am aware that its a paraphrase of Darwin turned into a quote, and he never said it in that form. It still distills quite a bit of what he did say about evolution into one easily remembered line, yes?Darwin never said or wrote that. Moreover, in the context of evolution it's entirely irrelevant to this conversation.
And it is relevant, tho some may wish to ignore that.
After all, the general principles remain the same... things change, and you can either adapt and carry on, or not adapt and cry bitterly at how "things were better (for you) before they changed", or whine about how you want the old back and the new is awful.
Guess which one works better for your survival in nature?
And as with changes in nature, changes in the game can be answered in many ways... whining on the forums how the changes the powers that be made "destroyed your character" or "made playing impossible for you" is one, while adapting to the new rules and gaming on is another.
Guess which one will be better for the survival of your in-game fun?
I for one have several characters I really, really like. A stamblade. A magsorc. A stampler. Yes, my secondary main is indeed a magsorc. The ones that just got nerfed? Do you see my whining about it? No, I already know I will adapt and still have fun with my dunmer goth librarian sorc boy... and thus I want to be a voice against the current whining.
Nerfings have happened before, and they will happen again. And an emotional "waaah, why aren't things like yesterday!" pitch is not useful.
Better to look how it goes, understand -why- things were changed, and go with that. Adapt, find some new way to play your favorite character... and if you find it really is too difficult, that they overdid the nerfings... then wait a few months, trying all options, collect the data... and start a discussion where you -show- facts about that for the powers that be to see, point out where their plans overshot the goal, and carry on gaming until they get around to buff your favorite class once again in the next round of "rebalancings".
Right now tho, all I see are the "why can't things stay as they are, I liked having an advantage the developers did not intend for me to have and I hate how they took it away when they noticed things were different then they had planned..." whinings, so...0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have 15 max level toons, 3 of each class. I complain about unjustified changes when I see them. My goal has always been a balanced game. I certainly play some classes more than others, but I really dont have a dog in the fight, especially in PVE. In PVE, I sometimes tank on a DK and heal on a Templar, but for the most part, I am a DPS. Each patch, I pick one stam and one magic DPS and min/max them to the meta. So if one gets nerfed, I just play a different one next patch.
The one place I am perhaps a little biased is PVP mag sorc. Historically I have mostly been a PVE player for the most part, but I have all classes to at least Assault rank 10 for the skills and passives. My mDK and stamblade are in the low 20s for AR, and my mSorc is at AR 35.
My mag sorc is honestly not my favorite class to play, but as its my highest AR and would like to get her to Legate for the shineys, so I perhaps care a bit more how sorc plays. I am committed to that toon for at least a 8 million more AP, so I want it to be effective. If we had class change or account wide AR rankings, I would already be playing something else already, because mag sorc while not being dead as some would suggest, is low to mid tier at best.
The other huge issue for some people is achievements. I was an achievement chaser for a while early on, but I long since gave up. I ended up going from mDK to mSorc during our VMOL HM progression because we needed some ranged. After that, the achievement grind was over. This is one reason i advocate so hard for account wide achievements. I might start chasing them again if I didnt have to worry about which character I did it with, but as its stands now, why bother.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on November 9, 2018 9:17PM0 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I have almost every class+resource combination at endgame ready status (full alliance skill line, relevant guild lines, undaunted).
I still complain about some nerfs, because they often:
1. Make some of my favorite characters less fun (or less effective)
2. Reduce the diversity available to experience in Cyrodiil (I honestly miss the DW sorc archetype from when trapping webs was a spammable--was always a fun fight)
3. Pigeonhole class+role innovations
....but I don't whine about every nerf, because it's impossible to consider the game as a whole and not think some nerfs are/were needed. And I recognize that I have internal biases and make mistakes based on them.Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub0 -
Abigail✭✭✭✭✭TheShadowScout wrote: »
I am aware that its a paraphrase of Darwin turned into a quote, and he never said it in that form. It still distills quite a bit of what he did say about evolution into one easily remembered line, yes?Darwin never said or wrote that. Moreover, in the context of evolution it's entirely irrelevant to this conversation.
Actually, it's a paraphrase of a paraphrase, but I'm certain you knew that, too.
I've no particular problem with moderated, carefully considered change, like breaking in a new pair of shoes. What I don't adapt well to is having a 50 lb weight dropped on my foot.1 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ImmortalCX wrote: »Doesn't matter if you could just buy a fully leveled fully geared character from the store, that hit to the ego is going to make people feel some type of way.
Do you think the hit to the ego is because the game company is saying "You had it too easy. All those wins that you were getting... were basically because we made a prior mistake in making your character too strong." In essence, causing the player to question any prior success they had.
I think when people exploit overpowered mechanics, they pretty much know what they are doing, and also know that it has to end some time.
Very well could be for sure, no one is going to enjoy feelings things taken away from them, regardless of it they can be objectively explained.
I think its very important for a developer to understand the basic psychology of people as well as be great world buildersTl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.0 -
leeux✭✭✭✭✭I think you misunderstand the emotional connection in lieu of a logical one.
Video games by definition are an entertainment medium that require a certain part of one's self to be intermingled with their avatar. It's just the way it is, if you didn't feel personally connected to whatever action you see on the screen, then you would find no reason to play it.<snip>
There's another side of that coin, and adds to the picture, at least IMO. Not disagreeing with what you wrote... just adding a new perspective, maybe.
In any game I played and enjoyed there's always the memory of something that I really liked to do... like some move that was awesome to use, or some area that you specially liked... or some character that was really really well done, or some conversation/topic/dialogue that for some reason really resonated... things that make you remember those games fondly and if you let that feeling take hold, makes you go, install and replay some of them...
I have those kind of "feelings" of remembrance for several game I played... and impacted me in some way, like Fallout 3, Oblivion (and Nehrim, and several other mods), Morrowind, Valkyrie Profiles 2, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, etc... probably many more I won't bother listing... and yes, and even ESO.
The thing that all of them share except ESO, is that I can install them and play and revisit those things I like and enjoy them once again... not the same as when they were fresh ofc, but I can recapture the feeling if I want.
In the case of ESO and nerfs/unwarranted changes... and this is the main point I'm making: there are things that are taken away permanently each patch and that you won't even be able to enjoy again... ever.
And there's a point for everyone where you're like: What's the point? I liked this, got taken away... then liked this, got taken away... etc.
And I think the perspective that you're never safe in what you're doing is what makes people want to quit, because, as I said: THERE'S NO POINT IN ADAPTING... you'll probably have to do it again, and again, and again.
And I'm not talking *only* about game mechanics changes, or overperforming things nerfed... I never used overperforming things myself, so I never got attached to them...
I'm talking about things like, abilities that are turned useless, or that you can't use anymore because it clashes with group members (ex. Repentance), or even, stretching things a bit, losing your friends due to those changes too and the fact that you can't never get back the old groups of people you used to enjoy playing with anymore.
It all adds up, until it explodes.Edited by leeux on November 9, 2018 9:51PMPC/NA - Proud old member of the Antique Ordinatus Populus
My charsLiana Amnell (AD mSorc L50+, ex EP) =x= Lehnnan Klennett (AD mTemplar L50+ Healer/Support ) =x= Ethim Amnell (AD mDK L50+, ex DC)Leinwyn Valaene (AD mSorc L50+) =x= Levus Artorias (AD mDK-for-now L50+) =x= Madril Ulessen (AD mNB L50+) =x= Lyra Amnis (AD not-Stamplar-yet L50+)I only PvP on AD chars
~~ «And blossoms anew beneath tomorrow's sun >>»
~~ «I am forever swimming around, amidst this ocean world we call home... >>»
~~ "Let strength be granted so the world might be mended... so the world might be mended."
~~ "Slash the silver chain that binds thee to life"
~~ Our cries will shrill, the air will moan and crash into the dawn. >>
~~ The sands of time were eroded by the river of constant change >>
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lokulin✭✭✭✭✭Personally, I have a magsorc main with thousands of hours of gameplay and over 30k achievement points. I also have a DK tank, Templar healer, and a stamsorc. I also have a second account at roughly CP100. I used to have more alts; night blade (that I had tried as tank, heals and mag dps), templar tank, second magsorc, stamplar, warden tank, magdk. But most of them barely had a day or two worth of play including the time it took to level them but I ended up deleting them as it just annoyed me seeing them languish on my character screen.
So now I am several thousand hours in, truly end game. Hunting harder achievements on my main so yes, it is very annoying when aspects of my main are radically changed yet again. Not enough for me to rage quit but the motivation to log in and have some fun is diminished.
I can definitely see how this is a 1% problem but I can also identify with other players that may not have the time or resources to just roll a new character or learn a whole new playstyle and decide to quit. And I think the game is poorer for it.I've hidden your signature.0 -
itsJylerTAG✭✭✭I have one character and i don't really care about the nerfs one way or another due to the fact that i have seen them so much in recent gaming that i just give up trying to fight against it. The dev's rarely if ever listen even when there is a huge fuss about it so i'd rather not waste my time. I enjoy it for what it is, the best i can and if it gets to bad i leave.1 -
lokulin✭✭✭✭✭ImmortalCX wrote: »SydneyGrey wrote: »No, people just sometimes have a favorite character, even though they might have 10 characters, and they don't want to see their favorite destroyed.
My thinking is that mag sorc was the favorite of ALOT of people, precisely because it was overpowered. Its just human nature.
It is my favourite because it is my first and main character. I never found it overpowered and as someone that has spent a fair amount of time tanking I sometimes wish I had started on DK as they are so much more powerful as tanks.
The stats on eso-db show a pretty even distribution among classes (except wardens for the obvious reason they are an extra not everyone has access to).
I've hidden your signature.0 -
rumple9✭✭✭✭✭
✭They should nerf the people with only one character - no forum access and only 2 skill slots0 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ImmortalCX wrote: »I just have to assume that the "powers that be" have much more domain expertise and are doing it for a good reason. The developers and the class reps have a much better understanding of (and hopefully data to support) the changes that need to be made.
The question is, does even a multi-year player with many alts have that same perspective?
The input of class reps has been ... let's say, rather limited. Maybe by bringing up some issues early on in a general statement - and even then, as the recent speed nerfs show, ZOS may react in a way that has little to do with the original problem. And after that, they got to see the almost finished implementation when the PTS comes, and ZOS rarely changes anything major during the PTS.
And second, I think you overestimate the knowledge of developers with their game. They have some insights that players don't have; what they don't have, is massive amounts of experience playing their game. They look at it from an entirely different perspective, and the result is sometimes that changes completely miss how the game is actually played. (The shield cast times being a prime example. May have looked good in theory when crunching some numbers but was completely removed from any player experience.)
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As for the original post:
I for one come from a very different perspective. I don't understand "just create an alt and play that". An alt is not the same character. They play differently (even if it's the same role like "PvE mag DD"), they're a different character, I did different things with them.
Oh, and I absolutely despise power-levelling in dolmens or Skyreach. Levelling an alt means doing quests and stuff - that is at least fun, but it takes a while.
In fact, levelling is one of two fun phases with a character. The other one is after they're mostly geared up and ready to do more advanced things. What is definitely not fun is the time when you hit level 50 and need to grind. Grind new gear, Undaunted, PvP skills, riding lessons, all that boring stuff. Which is why "just switch to an alt" doesn't make sense. I'm playing a certain char who is ready to do things. Bringing alts to that stage, is tedious, tedious, tedious.
I do have several characters - for different roles.
Also, "stop playing it and use someone else" is not "adapting", it's abandoning the character.2 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's not just about levelling up 1-50.
You still need to grind out:
- Skill points
- Mages Guild
- Psijic Order
- Undaunted
You also can't transfer story progress between characters. I like to complete quests while I wait for dungeon queues or for my trial group to assemble. I can't do that on alts.Edited by MLGProPlayer on November 9, 2018 11:03PM0 -
Urvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I play one character, a MagSorc, and it's been that way since I started the game. People that have multiple characters often have made those alts before they've spent a huge amount of time on their main, making the cost of playing other characters much lower. The longer you've played a single character only, the higher the cost of switching becomes, since you get more and more achievements, skyshards, alliance ranks, etc over time. You probably won't find many altaholics with high achievement points.
Even if the cost was nothing and skyshards, achievements, mount speeds, etc were all account wide, I probably wouldn't play much on other characters. Once you've played a single character for so long, you get fairly attached to them and the desire to play on alts just isn't there. Playing ESO and playing on my main are synonymous.0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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Actually I did not, but I just looked it up and now I do.Actually, it's a paraphrase of a paraphrase, but I'm certain you knew that, too.
Thing is, sometimes the things that go differently then the developers wanted them to go are small and can be fixed with moderated, carefully considered changes.I've no particular problem with moderated, carefully considered change, like breaking in a new pair of shoes. What I don't adapt well to is having a 50 lb weight dropped on my foot.
And sometimes the developers consider carefully, and come to the conclusion that they need to drop the 50 pund nerf-sledgehammer on a problem to bend it back to where they want things.
And occasionally they even find out afterwards that this was too much and buff the things they nerfed the last time again.
But in the end, their game, their decision.
You can cry about it, but unless you own a controlling interest of the company you cannot change their decisions, they will do what they think will get the best result in the long run.
They will keep rebalancing whenever they notice some imbalance, so if the nerf was too harsh, they will in time balance that too. And they will not undo what they did just because some who lost an OP build cry about it, so its better to stop worrying and learn how to live with the nerf! 0 -
ImmortalCX✭✭✭✭✭ImmortalCX wrote: »Doesn't matter if you could just buy a fully leveled fully geared character from the store, that hit to the ego is going to make people feel some type of way.
Do you think the hit to the ego is because the game company is saying "You had it too easy. All those wins that you were getting... were basically because we made a prior mistake in making your character too strong." In essence, causing the player to question any prior success they had.
I think when people exploit overpowered mechanics, they pretty much know what they are doing, and also know that it has to end some time.
Very well could be for sure, no one is going to enjoy feelings things taken away from them, regardless of it they can be objectively explained.
I think its very important for a developer to understand the basic psychology of people as well as be great world builders
There shoulda been a free crown crate for everyone with a magsorc main!0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ImmortalCX wrote: »One of the good aspects of the CP system is that its easy to develop alts. I leveled two alts 3-50 during the last holiday. It was surprisingly little work to do the dolmen grind, and the free skill points handed out from leveling means you can advance all your combat skill lines without having to explore or quest. I believe there are 3 or 4 of these 100% xp events per year.
Because of the way gear drops work in dungeons, I already have many healing, tanking, and mag dps sets ready for these new characters.
I realize that the game will change, that some classes will become less entertaining, or less powerful. Players will adapt, or they will quit. But lets not pretend that getting another character into "fighting shape" takes much work at all.
If they completely nerfed my stamblade, I would just switch to one of my new characters. Which tells me that people who take balance nerfs this "seriously" feel like they are locked into a single character/playstyle. And that just isn't true. Its incredibly easy to level an alt (or two, or three.)
So why do people ragequit when meta changes? I would certainly understand it, if the game was like WOW where a new character took months of development. But getting an ESO toon from 3-50 takes 10-20 hours of playing.
Mages guild Psijic guild skill point build varieties(Dw 2h bow and SNB) it takes a long time.
It takes like 20 Skyreach runs to get that last level of SNB ult.
I already have most skills unlocked on every spec of character (magic and Stam)
But nerfs just ruin fun on a class. I will probably NEVER run my Mag sorc in PvP ever again. At least as Dps. I loved the 3rd bar and now that it’s been removed I just can’t bring myself to play it.
The third bar was game breaking for you? Lol
That was like the one change I was happy with because it made the ultimate actually useful
To me it enabled the bar space I needed for my build. I love pulling 3-4 people into a room puttin down (3rd bar) Mines Volcanic Rune hitting crit surge maybe a dark conversion and then going into my normal bars. It felt great and fluid. Both on mag sorc and Stam sorc.
50% reduced damage is useful for single target for you?
Reduced damage with the ability to weave it into my rotation, yes.
Overload is god-tier for sustain nowValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
AbysmalGhul✭✭✭✭✭
✭ImmortalCX wrote: »One of the good aspects of the CP system is that its easy to develop alts. I leveled two alts 3-50 during the last holiday. It was surprisingly little work to do the dolmen grind, and the free skill points handed out from leveling means you can advance all your combat skill lines without having to explore or quest. I believe there are 3 or 4 of these 100% xp events per year.
Because of the way gear drops work in dungeons, I already have many healing, tanking, and mag dps sets ready for these new characters.
I realize that the game will change, that some classes will become less entertaining, or less powerful. Players will adapt, or they will quit. But lets not pretend that getting another character into "fighting shape" takes much work at all.
If they completely nerfed my stamblade, I would just switch to one of my new characters. Which tells me that people who take balance nerfs this "seriously" feel like they are locked into a single character/playstyle. And that just isn't true. Its incredibly easy to level an alt (or two, or three.)
So why do people ragequit when meta changes? I would certainly understand it, if the game was like WOW where a new character took months of development. But getting an ESO toon from 3-50 takes 10-20 hours of playing.
I don't think that leveling new characters is the problem. I don't think the vast majority of people rage quit because of changes to the meta. I don't think farming new gear is an issue. You can basically take off the equipment from the character they won't use anymore and equip it on the new character. I do believe many people do have multiple characters to choose from.
All of my meta build elite friends adapted and still play. All of my casual friends adapted and still play. So who told you this was an issue?0
