2h Ult Needs Cost Reduction

mr_wazzabi · November 2018

The 2h Ultimate Berserker Strike is an extremely expensive one for a single target ability.

Let's compare it to other commonly used Stamina Ultimates. We'll use the Onslaught morph as it's commonly considered the better morph.

1. Onslaught
Cost: 150 ult
Base Damage: 1476
Pros:
High damage
Ignores resistance
Takes target's resistance and adds it to yours
Killing an enemy with this ult refunds the ult cost
Cons:
Single target
Dodgeable

2. Incap
Costs: 70 no stun, 120 with stun
Base Damage: 1291
Pros:
High damage
Major defile
20% damage buff vs target
Stuns with 120 ult
Cons:
Single target
Dodgeable

3. Dawnbreaker of Smiting
Cost: 125 ult
Base Damage: 1191 burst, 1391 dot for 5s
Pros: Moderately high burst damage
High damage dot
Aoe
Undodgeable
Stuns all targets in aoe
Cons: burst hits less than incap and onslaught
25% damage reduction vs major evasion

Based on the comparisons, it's fair to say that based on the higher cost of Onslaught, Incap and DBoS are clearly superior ultimates. A simple cost reduction would bring this potentially great ultimate to their level.

I recommend giving Berserking Strike the incap treatment for either the armor stealing effect or morph effect. 70 ult for just damage, penetration amd morph effect, 120 for those plus armor steal.

@masel92 can you bring this up to the devs when you talk to them next?

@ZOS_GILLIAM I believe this is a fair request. What do you think?

Masel · November 2018

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

The 2h Ultimate Berserker Strike is an extremely expensive one for a single target ability.

Let's compare it to other commonly used Stamina Ultimates. We'll use the Onslaught morph as it's commonly considered the better morph.

1. Onslaught
Cost: 150 ult
Base Damage: 1476
Pros:
High damage
Ignores resistance
Takes target's resistance and adds it to yours
Killing an enemy with this ult refunds the ult cost
Cons:
Single target
Dodgeable

2. Incap
Costs: 70 no stun, 120 with stun
Base Damage: 1291
Pros:
High damage
Major defile
20% damage buff vs target
Stuns with 120 ult
Cons:
Single target
Dodgeable

3. Dawnbreaker of Smiting
Cost: 125 ult
Base Damage: 1191 burst, 1391 dot for 5s
Pros: Moderately high burst damage
High damage dot
Aoe
Undodgeable
Stuns all targets in aoe
Cons: burst hits less than incap and onslaught
25% damage reduction vs major evasion

Based on the comparisons, it's fair to say that based on the higher cost of Onslaught, Incap and DBoS are clearly superior ultimates. A simple cost reduction would bring this potentially great ultimate to their level.

I recommend giving Berserking Strike the incap treatment for either the armor stealing effect or morph effect. 70 ult for just damage, penetration amd morph effect, 120 for those plus armor steal.

@masel92 can you bring this up to the devs when you talk to them next?

@ZOS_GILLIAM I believe this is a fair request. What do you think?

My @ is @Masel here now

sure I can, it's something I had on mind too.

Idinuse · November 2018

Nah. Onslaught and Incap need to have their costs buffed.

Masel · November 2018

Idinuse wrote: »

Nah. Onslaught and Incap need to have their costs buffed.

Not really... I dont think ive ever seen someone use onslaught against me, which is a sign for a skill not being good enough. Incap is still quite popular, but it is not as deadly as it was before it had the stun tied to the ultimate spent.

Biro123 · November 2018

I agree.

Only ever used onslaught on newer characters which still don't have dawnbreaker unlocked..

It has potential, but the cost is a problem imho when comparing to the alternatives.

susmitds · November 2018

2H ult has the highest burst damage of all ults in the game and ignores mitigation and makes you semi immortal for 8 secs. It doesnt need any cost reduction.
Decreasing the cost will basically hand out a stronger Incap Strike to all classes. So, no way.

Masel · November 2018

susmitds wrote: »

2H ult has the highest burst damage of all ults in the game and ignores mitigation and makes you semi immortal for 8 secs. It doesnt need any cost reduction.
Decreasing the cost will basically hand out a stronger Incap Strike to all classes. So, no way.

The problem it has is that halve the time it doesnt hit, which makes it bad and much less effective. I tried making it work in PvP for a while, and I've never found a reason to use it.

susmitds · November 2018

Masel wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

2H ult has the highest burst damage of all ults in the game and ignores mitigation and makes you semi immortal for 8 secs. It doesnt need any cost reduction.
Decreasing the cost will basically hand out a stronger Incap Strike to all classes. So, no way.

The problem it has is that halve the time it doesnt hit, which makes it bad and much less effective. I tried making it work in PvP for a while, and I've never found a reason to use it.

Incap Strike has the same range and also misses a lot. Just it's low cost makes worthwhile.
Also, unlike Incap, Onslaught is easy to animation cancel. My gankblade has a 23k tooltip on it and I often get chainkills with around 20k crits on landing it.
Wrecking Blow from Stealth->LA->Onslaught combo destroys 30K tanks, as long Onslaught crits. Cloak can easily force a crit and even if the enemy survives, executes will do the job, while I basically have the damage of a gank build with far above max resists for the next 8 secs, making it very easy to escape, in case I get swarmed.

Emma_Overload · November 2018

Masel wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

Nah. Onslaught and Incap need to have their costs buffed.

Not really... I dont think ive ever seen someone use onslaught against me, which is a sign for a skill not being good enough. Incap is still quite popular, but it is not as deadly as it was before it had the stun tied to the ultimate spent.

There's an EP nightblade on NA PC who does nothing BUT delete people with 20K Onslaughts. He never, ever comes out of stealth except to gank somebody, then he cloaks away immediately. I won't "name and shame" him, but his name rhymes with the father of Chinese communism. Jesus, what a cowardly scumbag!

Onslaught is OP AF and needs to be nerfed by at least 25%. What that guy does shouldn't even be possible. And yes, I run full Impen.

susmitds · November 2018

@Emma_Overload You can't really call someone a scumbag for a valid ingame fighting style.
Look at the post right above yours. I myself have a 23k Onslaught build. 2H gank builds never start a fight with Onslaught. The combo is started with Wrecking Blow/2H Heavy, both of which have fairly long cast times, often followed by Shadowy Disguise to make Onslaught crit and for Khajiit+NB passives. Only time, it works reliably is if your target is standing still unaware of surroundings, which is punished by this gankstyle.
It is far easier to secure kills with 20K Snipe build than with any 2H gank build. My snipe build already hits tanks for around 12k. The average person is an easy one/two-shot.

JasonWangTaiwan · November 2018

susmitds wrote: »

Incap Strike has the same range and also misses a lot. Just it's low cost makes worthwhile.
Also, unlike Incap, Onslaught is easy to animation cancel. My gankblade has a 23k tooltip on it and I often get chainkills with around 20k crits on landing it.
Wrecking Blow from Stealth->LA->Onslaught combo destroys 30K tanks, as long Onslaught crits. Cloak can easily force a crit and even if the enemy survives, executes will do the job, while I basically have the damage of a gank build with far above max resists for the next 8 secs, making it very easy to escape, in case I get swarmed.

So how to survive these gank build ?
Or give up and quit ?
Sounds like cloak detecting must cap 100% of the time XD.

Kadoin · November 2018

No. Just because DBoS and incap are better options than berserker strike doesn't mean it needs a buff. In fact, by that logic every ult should get buffed since both of those ults are better than almost every other offensive ult in the game in PvP.

evoniee · November 2018

just make the over penetration amp the damage, the skill is useful but make the penetration stats useless.

Haquor · November 2018

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

Nah. Onslaught and Incap need to have their costs buffed.

Not really... I dont think ive ever seen someone use onslaught against me, which is a sign for a skill not being good enough. Incap is still quite popular, but it is not as deadly as it was before it had the stun tied to the ultimate spent.

There's an EP nightblade on NA PC who does nothing BUT delete people with 20K Onslaughts. He never, ever comes out of stealth except to gank somebody, then he cloaks away immediately. I won't "name and shame" him, but his name rhymes with the father of Chinese communism. Jesus, what a cowardly scumbag!

Onslaught is OP AF and needs to be nerfed by at least 25%. What that guy does shouldn't even be possible. And yes, I run full Impen.

Nerf by at least 25%. No.

He built for a specific kill style. He has likely sacrificed a lot sustain/survivability to achieve this which is why he doesnt come out of stealth.

Your rage is also his primary resource. So well done buffing his resource pools with this post.

susmitds · November 2018

Haquor wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

Nah. Onslaught and Incap need to have their costs buffed.

Not really... I dont think ive ever seen someone use onslaught against me, which is a sign for a skill not being good enough. Incap is still quite popular, but it is not as deadly as it was before it had the stun tied to the ultimate spent.

There's an EP nightblade on NA PC who does nothing BUT delete people with 20K Onslaughts. He never, ever comes out of stealth except to gank somebody, then he cloaks away immediately. I won't "name and shame" him, but his name rhymes with the father of Chinese communism. Jesus, what a cowardly scumbag!

Onslaught is OP AF and needs to be nerfed by at least 25%. What that guy does shouldn't even be possible. And yes, I run full Impen.

Nerf by at least 25%. No.

He built for a specific kill style. He has likely sacrificed a lot sustain/survivability to achieve this which is why he doesnt come out of stealth.

Your rage is also his primary resource. So well done buffing his resource pools with this post.

To get these kinds of damage stats, you are looking at sub-20k HP builds with zero defense or sub-1k stam recovery with zero sustain, often both if going for that max damage possible build. My version got just 18.3k HP in PvP with semi-decent sustain.
Funny thing is that Cloak makes even these otherwise unplayable builds OP if pulled off right. I tend to live far longer this way than with any open-world Brawler blade build.

barshemm · November 2018

Plus he only trolls IC and honestly, I crack up every time he gets me.

usmcjdking · November 2018

IMO 2H ulti having a damage component makes little sense because 2H isn't exactly weak when it comes to burst damage. Rend on 2H and Onslaught on DW would make infinitely more sense, providing both of these weapons a ultimate that makes up for their gaps instead of some incredibly niche weapon ult.

With that said, I still don't care for 2H to have any damage tied to it's ult - it should be reworked to mirror Neverwinter's GWF Unstoppable with an ult cost reduction to maybe 100/120.

Remove damage component. Provide 8 seconds of CC/Snare immunity and providing 99999 resistances (to ignore all penetration). Berserker grants Major Berserk. Onslaught provides a 50% haste to ALL 2H skills (to include LA/HA).

Vandril · November 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

With that said, I still don't care for 2H to have any damage tied to it's ult - it should be reworked to mirror Neverwinter's GWF Unstoppable with an ult cost reduction to maybe 100/120.

Remove damage component. Provide 8 seconds of CC/Snare immunity and providing 99999 resistances (to ignore all penetration). Berserker grants Major Berserk. Onslaught provides a 50% haste to ALL 2H skills (to include LA/HA).

Oh, man! You just gave me a nerdgasm with this. I loved NW's GWF class back in the day, and this would feel amazing as the 2H Ultimate in ESO. I'd never stop using a 2H Weapon.