Single target dot effects no longer proc enchants, the cheese gets toned down - nice!

Thogard · November 2018

1: class dots can’t proc enchants
2. Bladecloak wasn’t changed this patch for wep enchants - it will work the same way it worked last patch
3. Torugs just for blade cloak is a viable build but not OP and not something many people would choose to run.

John_Falstaff · November 2018

So far, it's not terribly bad. With absorb back / weapon damage front (on off hand; main hand is nirnhoned poison), the uptime of weapon damage didn't change much, so DW/Bow parse remained largely the same for me. Granted, it might be more sensitive to careful weaving now, so with more skipped weaves, either damage (in case of berserker front) or sustain (in case of absorb front) may drop.

Haashhtaag · November 2018

This 100^

Sygil05 wrote: »

This thread is kind of ridiculous - I'm glad that ZOS rushed this fix out, but this was a known issue during PTS that they went ahead and implemented. Saying "Thanks" for rushing to fix a bug they introduced and then ignored seems a bit....unearned. If I punch you in the face twice, then don't punch you a third time, should I be thanked?

Really, this is just yet more evidence that their development and QA processes are completely a mess, and seems like a slap in the face to the customers that put time in to testing new features on the PTS. What I don't understand is how it seems like no steps are ever taken to prevent these types of problems from coming up in the future. I'm a developer, and we typically review what went wrong/right on projects after implementation so that we can learn for next time. With ZOS, we keep seeing the same ridiculous problems come up again and again.

reprosal · November 2018

@John_Falstaff what was your berserker uptime? Keep in mind the less it is up the less other raid buffs help so it is more of a DPS loss when buffed.

John_Falstaff · November 2018

@reprosal , 81-82%, I did average of several parses and pulled my pre-patch parses to compare (mind, I'm not among higher leagues, I parse 46-47k as stamina DK khajiit), so it was about the same. I was about to test with berserker on bow bar and absorb off-hand to see if my stamina return would drop a lot, but... erm, didn't happen - Steam login issues.

technohic · November 2018

I was dipping my toe. 1 infused axe 1 nirhoned sword one bar, infused 2h axe other bar. Plan to just switch the sword still to axe once I get one and might just transmute to nirhoned or sharpened. Dont think they have addressed bleeds much yet.

Speaking of which, what trait is going to be BIS PvE and PvP now?

BaylorCorvette · November 2018

technohic wrote: »

Speaking of which, what trait is going to be BIS PvE and PvP now?

For PvP I doubt I'll run infused back bar now. Probably Sharpened.
For PvE, endless hail should still proc enchants since it isn't a single target DoT so infused should still be good.

I haven't tested things out since this mornings patch though.

Darkenarlol · November 2018

so actually the only overall buff they brought with nerfmire is now totally gone

and nerfmire can be called nerfmire with no exceptions

MartiniDaniels · November 2018

Darkenarlol wrote: »

so actually the only overall buff they brought with nerfmire is now totally gone

and nerfmire can be called nerfmire with no exceptions

Tank shields still buffed.. you don't believe but even in dlc vets bonewall now works for 2-3 seconds, while pre-patch it will be blown away after first light attack from any mob.

Gargath · November 2018

Great weapon against toxic tank builds just went to ...
I think I'll be watching more on Netflix now than playing eso, the monthly fee is the same

.

JumpmanLane · November 2018

All those DW tanks hiding DEEP in Zergs now. Lol. But GAWD were the Zergs out today.

Beffagorn · November 2018

Gargath wrote: »

Great weapon against toxic tank builds just went to ...
I think I'll be watching more on Netflix now than playing eso, the monthly fee is the same .

Except that it wasn't a "great weapon against toxic tank builds" It was more like a "Shred everything that moves in a matter of seconds"

It was broken to the point of being gamebreaking in pvp when the murkmire changes went live. Thank god it didn't take them 3months to nerf it.

Also, i'd like to know where all these toxic tank builds are. I haven't seen a single roadblock type tank build in ages.

John_Falstaff · November 2018

I ran some more parses with weapon damage back bar and absorb stamina off hand and it seems that (in my case, can't stress that enough), extra 81 weapon damage (for 100% berserker uptime instead of 82%) give less gain than having damage from absorb glyph firing more often from Endless Hail. Put differently, absorb on the off hand isn't firing often enough to justify having it there, resource return drops from 190-200 stamina/s to 130-140, and the damage it generates is low enough that 81 extra WD can't make up for it (yes, I've tried with Blade Cloak on front bar, but it didn't change things much for me). So at least this setup, the patch's change have killed for me.

Maybe for different rotations it will be different (mine is 12-second with 8 weaves on the front, that's the most I can go with swap-canceling trap and no weave before Hail). Again, maybe raid buffs will make 81 WD matter more, but I think I had all the relevant ones except Minor Brutality. So there you have it, a bit of a nerf is there, but could've been far worse. I'll wait and see if people with published builds, like @Alcast , will weigh in.

ErMurazor · November 2018

Gargath wrote: »

Great weapon against toxic tank builds just went to ...
I think I'll be watching more on Netflix now than playing eso, the monthly fee is the same .

The cheese meta OP build got nerfed and you cant get ez kills anymore. So u stop playing. LOL

Alcast · November 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I ran some more parses with weapon damage back bar and absorb stamina off hand and it seems that (in my case, can't stress that enough), extra 81 weapon damage (for 100% berserker uptime instead of 82%) give less gain than having damage from absorb glyph firing more often from Endless Hail. Put differently, absorb on the off hand isn't firing often enough to justify having it there, resource return drops from 190-200 stamina/s to 130-140, and the damage it generates is low enough that 81 extra WD can't make up for it (yes, I've tried with Blade Cloak on front bar, but it didn't change things much for me). So at least this setup, the patch's change have killed for me.

Maybe for different rotations it will be different (mine is 12-second with 8 weaves on the front, that's the most I can go with swap-canceling trap and no weave before Hail). Again, maybe raid buffs will make 81 WD matter more, but I think I had all the relevant ones except Minor Brutality. So there you have it, a bit of a nerf is there, but could've been far worse. I'll wait and see if people with published builds, like @Alcast , will weigh in.

PvP wise its a good change, which should have been here since the beginning of murkmire, because this was talked about and pointed at by A LOT of people in week 1 pts, but like always ZOS failed to change it.

PvE wise it barely makes a difference, you maybe lost 1k dps or smth like that. The problem what a lot of people do not see tho is that it makes the new "meta rending slashes as spammable" even stronger then before, because the impact hit of rending slashes will keep procing both enchants, so therefore it got even more lucrative to use.

Alowishus · November 2018

Moonsorrow wrote: »

From the new patch notes:

Weapon Enchantments and poisons will no longer proc from single-target Damage over Time effects of any weapon ability. The following effects can no longer proc Weapon Enchantments or poisons:
The Damage over Time from Cleave and its morphs

I thought Cleave was a conal aoe, not single target

Chilly-McFreeze · November 2018

Alowishus wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

From the new patch notes:

Weapon Enchantments and poisons will no longer proc from single-target Damage over Time effects of any weapon ability. The following effects can no longer proc Weapon Enchantments or poisons:
The Damage over Time from Cleave and its morphs

I thought Cleave was a conal aoe, not single target

I think it's badly worded and they actually mean dots that stick on your target instead of ground dots.

Moonsorrow · November 2018

Alcast wrote: »

The problem what a lot of people do not see tho is that it makes the new "meta rending slashes as spammable" even stronger then before, because the impact hit of rending slashes will keep procing both enchants, so therefore it got even more lucrative to use.

Nope, some tried that on pvp yesterday, and did not be NEARLY as efficient as before the latest changes. Based on around 8 hours of pvp yesterday, fighting against all of the full previous mega cheese setups and modified versions of it.. people can be really imaginative what comes to trying to find new cheeselord setups.

Small scale and the whole pvp experience (as much as can say) was WAY better after the fix than before it.

While some may try to use Rending as a "spammable", it does not do as well as more solid setups. Those who tried got finished off by more traditional setups. So things are way better. Go check it out if not take my word on it.

edit: About the efficiency of it too: the thing about Rending with the old cheese was the bleed, if one spams it you keep refreshing the bleed ticks. You know what that means. The bleed part was big amount of the damage and pressure of it. So as said, far from efficient. Traditional builds work now again better, as they should. Easy to handle a pure enchant spammer now and burst them down when they try poking you with enchants haha.

Alowishus · November 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Alowishus wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

From the new patch notes:

Weapon Enchantments and poisons will no longer proc from single-target Damage over Time effects of any weapon ability. The following effects can no longer proc Weapon Enchantments or poisons:
The Damage over Time from Cleave and its morphs

I thought Cleave was a conal aoe, not single target

I think it's badly worded and they actually mean dots that stick on your target instead of ground dots.

Then what about arrow spray's poison? Does this proc enchants?

Aznox · November 2018

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

The problem what a lot of people do not see tho is that it makes the new "meta rending slashes as spammable" even stronger then before, because the impact hit of rending slashes will keep procing both enchants, so therefore it got even more lucrative to use.

Nope, some tried that on pvp yesterday, and did not be NEARLY as efficient as before the latest changes. Based on around 8 hours of pvp yesterday, fighting against all of the full previous mega cheese setups and modified versions of it.. people can be really imaginative what comes to trying to find new cheeselord setups.

Small scale and the whole pvp experience (as much as can say) was WAY better after the fix than before it.

While some may try to use Rending as a "spammable", it does not do as well as more solid setups. Those who tried got finished off by more traditional setups. So things are way better. Go check it out if not take my word on it.

Torug infused is still very strong in PvP, just not instant-BiS anymore because it is now possible to escape the pressure by creating distance / using CC.

Sincerely,

A cheeselord

Alcast · November 2018

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

The problem what a lot of people do not see tho is that it makes the new "meta rending slashes as spammable" even stronger then before, because the impact hit of rending slashes will keep procing both enchants, so therefore it got even more lucrative to use.

Nope, some tried that on pvp yesterday, and did not be NEARLY as efficient as before the latest changes. Based on around 8 hours of pvp yesterday, fighting against all of the full previous mega cheese setups and modified versions of it.. people can be really imaginative what comes to trying to find new cheeselord setups.

Read my text, I was talking about PvE there.

Moonsorrow · November 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

The problem what a lot of people do not see tho is that it makes the new "meta rending slashes as spammable" even stronger then before, because the impact hit of rending slashes will keep procing both enchants, so therefore it got even more lucrative to use.

Nope, some tried that on pvp yesterday, and did not be NEARLY as efficient as before the latest changes. Based on around 8 hours of pvp yesterday, fighting against all of the full previous mega cheese setups and modified versions of it.. people can be really imaginative what comes to trying to find new cheeselord setups.

Small scale and the whole pvp experience (as much as can say) was WAY better after the fix than before it.

While some may try to use Rending as a "spammable", it does not do as well as more solid setups. Those who tried got finished off by more traditional setups. So things are way better. Go check it out if not take my word on it.

Torug infused is still very strong in PvP, just not instant-BiS anymore because it is now possible to escape the pressure by creating distance / using CC.

Sincerely,

A cheeselord

Yep, it has its "use(r)s" as had before Murkmire, people with either Sloads Knight Slayer variations used it before too for cheesing, but the dots not autoproccing the enchants anymore makes it not a huge problem anymore and the traditional builds will have more burst again. Saw people test changes yesterday, most of them switched back to their old trusty setups and/or testing some of the new sets too. Against decent opponents the enchant spam just did not get good results anymore against what kind of damage they got to themselves.

Happy about the current situation for sure.

Moonsorrow · November 2018

Alcast wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

The problem what a lot of people do not see tho is that it makes the new "meta rending slashes as spammable" even stronger then before, because the impact hit of rending slashes will keep procing both enchants, so therefore it got even more lucrative to use.

Nope, some tried that on pvp yesterday, and did not be NEARLY as efficient as before the latest changes. Based on around 8 hours of pvp yesterday, fighting against all of the full previous mega cheese setups and modified versions of it.. people can be really imaginative what comes to trying to find new cheeselord setups.

Read my text, I was talking about PvE there.

Oh, still drinking morning coffee and got sand in my eyes i guess.

Did people actually use Torug at pve side of things for actual dps? I know for tanking with DW back bar, (did test myself too)..

How much dps can one reach by Torugs setup with such a Rending spam?

Girl_Number8 · November 2018

I am amazed that they listen but then again I am sure they didn't want to lose more of their playerbase.

Alcast · November 2018

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

The problem what a lot of people do not see tho is that it makes the new "meta rending slashes as spammable" even stronger then before, because the impact hit of rending slashes will keep procing both enchants, so therefore it got even more lucrative to use.

Nope, some tried that on pvp yesterday, and did not be NEARLY as efficient as before the latest changes. Based on around 8 hours of pvp yesterday, fighting against all of the full previous mega cheese setups and modified versions of it.. people can be really imaginative what comes to trying to find new cheeselord setups.

Read my text, I was talking about PvE there.

Oh, still drinking morning coffee and got sand in my eyes i guess. Did people actually use Torug at pve side of things for actual dps? I know for tanking with DW back bar, (did test myself too)..

How much dps can one reach by Torugs setup with such a Rending spam?

hehe, now you made me get some coffee myself xD

Not torugs no, but currently a new "meta" has risen, so instead of a direct damage ability like Crushing Weapons or Shrouded Daggers, we now spam Rending Slashes, because it is cheaper and deals only about 10% less damage then Crushing Weapons. But because it is so much cheaper the sustain of stamina setups is so much better effectively resulting in more overall dps in the end.

Now with that change to how DoTs proc enchants, spamming Rending Slashes just got stronger, because it will keep procing the enchants on the direct damage hit, whereas if you use crushing weapon you will only use rending slashes once and the DoT effect itself can not proc the enchants anymore.

God I need to learn to explain this better xD

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/crushing-weapon
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/shrouded-daggers
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/rending-slashes

Here an example, using rending slashes as spammable instead of Crushing weapon, resulting in more overall dps.
https://youtu.be/6oxaItA2VjU?t=609

https://youtu.be/6oxaItA2VjU?t=609

John_Falstaff · November 2018

@Alcast , not saying it's the worst we could get (except the succession of fixes could've happened with less chaos), I mostly meant just the placement of enchants. I just see that the current builds use berserker on bow bar and absorb on the front. In my case it's now more beneficial to place berserker on off hand (and absorb on the bow) because the off hand doesn't proc on the back bar anymore and average damage from absorb dropped so much, but I deferred because it may be only my case. That's what I meant when I said I'd wait for comments from build authors.

Moonsorrow · November 2018

Haha, no need to explain all of it, i know what you mean, but since english is not my first language also.. my replies can be not that well written haha. Like from me saying tanks using Torugs with dw back bar sounds like that was the only use lol. Used torugs with the typical setup for tanking for a long time heh.

But nice to know. Kinda surprised it can do that much dps compared to a traditional setup at pve.

That got me the feeling though, they might because of that adjust the enchants more.. Or Torugs.

Alcast · November 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Alcast , not saying it's the worst we could get (except the succession of fixes could've happened with less chaos), I mostly meant just the placement of enchants. I just see that the current builds use berserker on bow bar and absorb on the front. In my case it's now more beneficial to place berserker on off hand (and absorb on the bow) because the off hand doesn't proc on the back bar anymore and average damage from absorb dropped so much, but I deferred because it may be only my case. That's what I meant when I said I'd wait for comments from build authors.

ye you might be right, I have to check with some buddies if we have to change enchantment places now.

daemondamian · November 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Alcast , not saying it's the worst we could get (except the succession of fixes could've happened with less chaos), I mostly meant just the placement of enchants. I just see that the current builds use berserker on bow bar and absorb on the front. In my case it's now more beneficial to place berserker on off hand (and absorb on the bow) because the off hand doesn't proc on the back bar anymore and average damage from absorb dropped so much, but I deferred because it may be only my case. That's what I meant when I said I'd wait for comments from build authors.

Are you saying if I were to have dual wield both bars that on the 'back' bar the enchantment on the off hand one handed weapon won't proc at all or in specific conditions or are you referring to the enhancement on just one weapon on the back bar like a bow or 2 handed battle axe?

Vildebill · November 2018

Will be interesting to see if this will affect trait choices and weapon types as well as where the enchants will be placed.