"Break Free" made magicka based rather than Stamina?

Arato · November 2018

Currently the ways to defend yourself from damage (outside of pumping up your health pool and wearing heavy armor which is intended for tanks), are blocking (costs stamina), roll dodging (costs stamina), bashing to interrupt (costs stamina), and breaking free of control effects (costs stamina). Stamina DPS can go full stamina, and have resource pool with which to avoid a lot of incoming damage. Meanwhile, for magicka, your ways of reducing incoming damage are spells that grant major ward/resolve (not the same as completely avoiding damage, and reduces damage less than blocking, besides Medium armor starts out having 75% of the protection of heavy armor anyway), healing, which is reactive to damage and doesn't do anything for an attack that would one shot them, and shields which have been repeatedly nerfed and are now as much based on your health as they are magicka. Everything else depletes an already deficient stamina pool. What are mag dps being told to do about it? Reduce their damage (which already is behind stam dps) by making "interesting choices" on their stats, IE don't put everything into magicka

So how about we take one of the other damage avoidance abilities and make it magicka based rather than stamina based, break free seems the most appropriate. I still in the end don't think it'd make stam dps have to make "interesting choices" in lowering their 60k dps parses by having to divert any of their stats from stamina, but hey, at least it might help us recast a shield (aka 1 more hit) after our stamina is depleted and we eat a stun.

ChunkyCat · November 2018

No.

ArchMikem · November 2018

I hope that 60k parse number was you exaggerating. lol

jcm2606 · November 2018

No. I'd be fine with introducing a different mechanic to breaking free that costs magicka instead of stamina, or somehow having break free cost magicka only for magicka builds, but this would be a stupid change, considering that basically all utility skills in the game use magicka to cast.

As a magicka build, you're able to dedicate all of your stamina to actions such as sprinting, blocking, dodging, breaking free, etc, as there aren't many skills within your arsenal that use stamina to cast. The only one I can think of would be Rapid Maneuver. As a stamina build, however, you can't dedicate all of your magicka to even just breaking free, as basically all of your utility skills use magicka to cast, namely DK & Warden.

This won't affect PVE much, so I'm indifferent about the impact this will have in PVE, however this will be brutal for stamina builds in PVP. I already have a hard time juggling Volatile Armor, Fossilize and wings with my 11k magicka pool on my PVP stamDK. Can't imagine how bad it would be if I had to ensure I had enough magicka to break free from stuns, especially with how deadly they can be when used by a good player.

Arato · November 2018

jcm2606 wrote: »

No. I'd be fine with introducing a different mechanic to breaking free that costs magicka instead of stamina, or somehow having break free cost magicka only for magicka builds, but this would be a stupid change, considering that basically all utility skills in the game use magicka to cast.

As a magicka build, you're able to dedicate all of your stamina to actions such as sprinting, blocking, dodging, breaking free, etc, as there aren't many skills within your arsenal that use stamina to cast. The only one I can think of would be Rapid Maneuver. As a stamina build, however, you can't dedicate all of your magicka to even just breaking free, as basically all of your utility skills use magicka to cast, namely DK & Warden.

This won't affect PVE much, so I'm indifferent about the impact this will have in PVE, however this will be brutal for stamina builds in PVP. I already have a hard time juggling Volatile Armor, Fossilize and wings with my 11k magicka pool on my PVP stamDK. Can't imagine how bad it would be if I had to ensure I had enough magicka to break free from stuns, especially with how deadly they can be when used by a good player.

So make "interesting choices" in your stats like Magicka DPS is supposed to.

Arato · November 2018

ArchMikem wrote: »

I hope that 60k parse number was you exaggerating. lol

You can look up the parses yourself. Stamblades, Stamdens, Stamplars all boast about 60k parses, Mag parses are between 5-10k behind that I've seen.

jcm2606 · November 2018

Arato wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

No. I'd be fine with introducing a different mechanic to breaking free that costs magicka instead of stamina, or somehow having break free cost magicka only for magicka builds, but this would be a stupid change, considering that basically all utility skills in the game use magicka to cast.

As a magicka build, you're able to dedicate all of your stamina to actions such as sprinting, blocking, dodging, breaking free, etc, as there aren't many skills within your arsenal that use stamina to cast. The only one I can think of would be Rapid Maneuver. As a stamina build, however, you can't dedicate all of your magicka to even just breaking free, as basically all of your utility skills use magicka to cast, namely DK & Warden.

This won't affect PVE much, so I'm indifferent about the impact this will have in PVE, however this will be brutal for stamina builds in PVP. I already have a hard time juggling Volatile Armor, Fossilize and wings with my 11k magicka pool on my PVP stamDK. Can't imagine how bad it would be if I had to ensure I had enough magicka to break free from stuns, especially with how deadly they can be when used by a good player.

So make "interesting choices" in your stats like Magicka DPS is supposed to.

Or you can ask for Zenimax to give you options that don't involve gimping yourself, instead of asking for other classes to be brought down to your level.

This is why we're in this mess to begin with, because nobody in this community understands that balance does not mean "he can do something I can't, so nerf him." Zenimax included.

idk · November 2018

Those that do parse high in real trials that are not stack and burn survive with magicka builds just fine. Of course they are smart enough to put some cost reduction into those areas, but also we have enough CP to do that.

That alone is reason the idea presented in the OP is not needed, and should not happen.

phermitgb · November 2018

actually, of late, I've had a rather fond vision of a revamped skill system that allows each player individually to decide whether any skill draws from stamina or magika, their choice - INCLUDING every one of the defensive skills (dodge, block, break free, even interrupt)

of course, this plan of mine also involves unhinging base damage from the stamina/magica pool, so that stamina/magica are ONLY resources for skills, and not also determining base damage, so that I can alternate a build between magica based skills and stamina based skills to spread out my resource expenditures while tying overall damage to...some other factor

but yah, I've got no problem envisioning magica and stamina based outputs for any of the defensive skills...
a magica dodge could be a short range teleport or blur effect, block could of course be a basic ward, break free could be...I dunno - i suppose any flash of magicky energy would do, and so on

MaxJrFTW · November 2018

Arato wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

I hope that 60k parse number was you exaggerating. lol

You can look up the parses yourself. Stamblades, Stamdens, Stamplars all boast about 60k parses, Mag parses are between 5-10k behind that I've seen.

Every single class/spec(except mag warden) is capable of doing 60k parses. In fact magplars do the highest dummy dps at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Arato · November 2018

idk wrote: »

Those that do parse high in real trials that are not stack and burn survive with magicka builds just fine. Of course they are smart enough to put some cost reduction into those areas, but also we have enough CP to do that.

That alone is reason the idea presented in the OP is not needed, and should not happen.

You can reduce the costs between 25-35% (break free being 35%) but you're still operating on a 10k stam pool.

susmitds · November 2018

Arato wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

No. I'd be fine with introducing a different mechanic to breaking free that costs magicka instead of stamina, or somehow having break free cost magicka only for magicka builds, but this would be a stupid change, considering that basically all utility skills in the game use magicka to cast.

As a magicka build, you're able to dedicate all of your stamina to actions such as sprinting, blocking, dodging, breaking free, etc, as there aren't many skills within your arsenal that use stamina to cast. The only one I can think of would be Rapid Maneuver. As a stamina build, however, you can't dedicate all of your magicka to even just breaking free, as basically all of your utility skills use magicka to cast, namely DK & Warden.

This won't affect PVE much, so I'm indifferent about the impact this will have in PVE, however this will be brutal for stamina builds in PVP. I already have a hard time juggling Volatile Armor, Fossilize and wings with my 11k magicka pool on my PVP stamDK. Can't imagine how bad it would be if I had to ensure I had enough magicka to break free from stuns, especially with how deadly they can be when used by a good player.

So make "interesting choices" in your stats like Magicka DPS is supposed to.

Most stamina NBs I know, already pack a lot of magicka in PvP for cloaking. Other classes, not so much but still enough for Wings, Shimmering Shield, Clease, Streak, etc.

Lord_Eomer · November 2018

Magicka have weakest defend in this game after shield nerf, break free cost stam which makes them more vulnerable.

ZOS made ice staff, while blocking it cost magicka same way they should change

"While Destro or Restro equipped, break free to cost Magicka"

templesus · November 2018

What? Not a single end game PvE Magicka build makes any "interesting choices" like not putting points into Magicka. Not a single one. If you are that is a DPS loss and ultimately a L2P issue.

I am assuming here you are solely talking about PvE because you brought up the fact about pulling 60k parses on Stam, which Mag classes pull as well btw. Im really thinking this whole thread should be chalked up as L2P issue related.

Arato · November 2018

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

I hope that 60k parse number was you exaggerating. lol

You can look up the parses yourself. Stamblades, Stamdens, Stamplars all boast about 60k parses, Mag parses are between 5-10k behind that I've seen.

Every single class/spec(except mag warden) is capable of doing 60k parses. In fact magplars do the highest dummy dps at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Only magsorc 60k (actually 59k) parse I saw was with a healer feeding them energy balls constantly because the rotation was otherwise unsustainable.

Alaztor91 · November 2018

Split the cost, half of what it currently costs as stamina and the other half as magicka.

Arato · November 2018

templesus wrote: »

What? Not a single end game PvE Magicka build makes any "interesting choices" like not putting points into Magicka. Not a single one. If you are that is a DPS loss and ultimately a L2P issue.

I am assuming here you are solely talking about PvE because you brought up the fact about pulling 60k parses on Stam, which Mag classes pull as well btw. Im really thinking this whole thread should be chalked up as L2P issue related.

T. stamina player who never runs out of resources for avoiding damage.

RedRook · November 2018

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Split the cost, half of what it currently costs as stamina and the other half as magicka.

That's an interesting thought.

How about if break free pulls from whichever resource pool is highest at the moment you use it? Or make it cost nothing at all, or a negligible amount of stamina, since you're already losing the ability to cast any defensive or offensive skill while you're mashing break free and praying it actually happens.

Something. The current setup is frustrating as hell on a magicka spec.

Rake · November 2018

No

madarame_77 · November 2018

Agree completely. Why should stamina classes have BOTH offensive and defensive advantages?

idk · November 2018

Arato wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Those that do parse high in real trials that are not stack and burn survive with magicka builds just fine. Of course they are smart enough to put some cost reduction into those areas, but also we have enough CP to do that.

That alone is reason the idea presented in the OP is not needed, and should not happen.

You can reduce the costs between 25-35% (break free being 35%) but you're still operating on a 10k stam pool.

and it seems to be working just fine, when we use all our tools.

Then again, you did not dispute my statement you quoted, that it works fine as is.

Chilly-McFreeze · November 2018

RedRook wrote: »

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Split the cost, half of what it currently costs as stamina and the other half as magicka.

That's an interesting thought.

How about if break free pulls from whichever resource pool is highest at the moment you use it? Or make it cost nothing at all, or a negligible amount of stamina, since you're already losing the ability to cast any defensive or offensive skill while you're mashing break free and praying it actually happens.

Something. The current setup is frustrating as hell on a magicka spec.

That's one way to *** up pvp.

jcm2606 · November 2018

madarame_77 wrote: »

Agree completely. Why should stamina classes have BOTH offensive and defensive advantages?

In doing what the OP suggests, magicka classes would now have BOTH offensive and defensive advantages, except now stamina classes under the OP's suggestion are far worse off than stamina classes currently, since basically all utility skills pull from magicka, while next to none pull from stamina.

Again, this community doesn't understand that balance is not "he has something I don't/can't have, nerf what he has!" If you want magicka to perform defensive actions better, suggest something that gives tools to magicka. Don't take tools away from stamina.

Kadoin · November 2018

I would rather keep the current system. Sustaining with mag is already bad on some classes, I would not want to have to have it even worse, esp. when break free is not a problem if I run tri-food. If you want to break free more, then invest in some stamina. If you stack purely mag, you're only paying the price for your decision to do so, just like if you stack mag and ignore health this patch.

Alagras · November 2018

Mag and stam must not end up differing only by animations and color of the pool. And your proposition sounds like a major step in this direction imo....

Arato · November 2018

Kadoin wrote: »

I would rather keep the current system. Sustaining with mag is already bad on some classes, I would not want to have to have it even worse, esp. when break free is not a problem if I run tri-food. If you want to break free more, then invest in some stamina. If you stack purely mag, you're only paying the price for your decision to do so, just like if you stack mag and ignore health this patch.

What'd I tell you, stam players and ZOS just suggest magicka players "make interesting choices" in their stats (IE drop their dps) while stam players never have to make such sacrifices, because simply building straight stamina gives them a huge resource pool for their damage dealing abilities AND their defensive capabilities, AND increases their primary physical damage all at the same time. Increasing magicka increases my damage and my resource pool for offensive skills, but provides me with next to no ways to avoid damage, and nerfed ways of reducing it.

idk wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Those that do parse high in real trials that are not stack and burn survive with magicka builds just fine. Of course they are smart enough to put some cost reduction into those areas, but also we have enough CP to do that.

That alone is reason the idea presented in the OP is not needed, and should not happen.

You can reduce the costs between 25-35% (break free being 35%) but you're still operating on a 10k stam pool.

and it seems to be working just fine, when we use all our tools.

Then again, you did not dispute my statement you quoted, that it works fine as is.

No, not really. ever since the shield change the #1 thing that kills me is running out of stamina, being stunned by an attack I no longer have the stamina to block or dodge, and then being one shot because I don't have stamina to break free and cast another shield.

I have 15% stamina reduction on dodge and block, but one dodge still takes 40% of my stamina.

Sheezabeast · November 2018

Can't you back bar an ice staff?

Arato · November 2018

The other option would be making it so that you were immune to cc states while a shield was up so that you wouldn't have to block while your damage shield is up (since blocking while having a shield up doesn't reduce damage done to the shield but is currently necessary to prevent being stunned/pulled/mezzed/launched etc, and does mitigate damage in excess of your shield amount that is done to your health), which would conserve your limited stamina for blocking or dodging between damage shields, but I feel that would have even more resistance than suggesting break free be magicka based.

Nilarynpaw · November 2018

Hmm, well I wouldn't be happy if I had to waste my magicka to do things like interrupt, bash, etc.
It wouldn't be logic either. You can't roll your body out of some bad stuff with your magic, can you?
It's not a thing that you have to do in every minute so your stamina shouldn't remain completely drained.

Saepio · November 2018

No.

Beardimus · November 2018

From a PvP perspective id be happy with half the CCs in the game using magika to break free half stamina.

Running magika in PvP has felt like I'm a hybrid build for an age now common sets are amber, shackle, EG all rife, tri stat pots and food. It's pretty pony if you ask me.

Would need thinking out properly of course balance wise etc. As there would be alot to it i imagine.