Frustrated by research. How do I overcome lore discrepancies?

myskyrim26 · October 2018

Ok, I did Betnikh island story – a fascinating one – and now I’m trying to compile a book on its history. And here’s what I have:
Loading screen 1, Carzog’s Demise: Way before Balfiera Elves sealed this Ayleid ruin during the Direnni Hegemony, the Orcs used this place for a very different purpose…

Ok. Direnni Hegemony. Here’s some lore: Clan Direnni rose in power in 1E 355. Than Aileids were absorbed by Direnni making them even more powerful. And in 1E 477 Direnni managed to conquer High Rock, some parts of Skyrim and Hammerfell – so, here’s a rough time of Hegemony, right?

BUT the Orcs that were referred to “used this place for a very different purpose” did it in 2 E – Second era!

Now, one more loading screen. Loading screen 2, Carzog’s Demise: This Ayleid ruin on Betnikh was sealed by the Balfiera Elves during the Direnni Hegemony, and its tunnels were never explored or catalogued by the Bretons who came after.

Wait. Bretons were already there when Orcs “used this place for a very different purpose” according to the quest.
I’m lost. Quest and other sources clearly say: Breton lived on island, then came Orcs and killed them. Where do Direnni fit then?

I stopped writing now... frustrated and lost.

Edit: shall I just throw Direnni away?... In this case the story will become neat and logical...

Conan776 · October 2018

Since no one lives in ruins, I'm sure various groups have set up camp there in ways not always dependent on the wider politics of Tamriel. That's why the authorities try to keep the place boarded up on and off.

The Bretons are who is there now on the island, right?

WhiteCoatSyndrome · October 2018

Not sure if this helps or makes it worse, but there is also:

Nine generations ago, the island of Betony was conquered by the Seamount Orcs, who renamed it Betnikh. A proud, self-reliant people, the Orcs fiercely protect their new home from incursion by outsiders.

The Direnni still exist, so maybe the timeline went something like:

Ayleids -> Bretons -> Orcs (flashback) -> Direnni -> Bretons -> Orcs (ESO)

But full disclosure: it's been a while since I did that quest, so I don't remember if the flashback Orcs were supposed to be the Seamount Orcs, if they were a different tribe, or if it was never stated. It might have just been a writing goof too.

myskyrim26 · October 2018

Conan776 wrote: »

Since no one lives in ruins, I'm sure various groups have set up camp there in ways not always dependent on the wider politics of Tamriel. That's why the authorities try to keep the place boarded up on and off.

The Bretons are who is there now on the island, right?

Orcs are on the island now. They have been here for about 300 years already, alone - no Bretons. Some unsuccessful Breton raids were repelled.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Not sure if this helps or makes it worse, but there is also:

Nine generations ago, the island of Betony was conquered by the Seamount Orcs, who renamed it Betnikh. A proud, self-reliant people, the Orcs fiercely protect their new home from incursion by outsiders.

The Direnni still exist, so maybe the timeline went something like:

Ayleids -> Bretons -> Orcs (flashback) -> Direnni -> Bretons -> Orcs (ESO)

But full disclosure: it's been a while since I did that quest, so I don't remember if the flashback Orcs were supposed to be the Seamount Orcs, if they were a different tribe, or if it was never stated. It might have just been a writing goof too.

Flashback orcs are exactly the first Seamount orcs. Last Breton king of the island, Renwic, was conquered by chief Yzzgol from Seamounts. Flashback provides a vision of Yzzgol and Renwic. So, it would be logical if Ayleids -> Direnni seal the ruin -> Bretons live on island -> Bretons unseal the ruin and try to use its power againts Orc invaders -> Orcs.

Also, Direnni could come after Bretons enter the ruin and try to use its power againts Orc invaders. Because they learned about the relic. But, this is very far from time of Direnni Hegemony

Robo_Hobo · October 2018

Interesting. Was Carzog's demise called that before or only after the Seamount Orc's invasion? Carzog is an Orc name, and I doubt the Ayleids or Direnni or even Bretons would name it after them unless there was an Orc named Carzog that was significant enough to be remembered that way.

So, I think it's suggesting that there was another group of Orc's, not the Seamount Orc's, that resided on the island in-between the time of the Ayleids and the Direnni sealing it away. Perhaps this was one such reason that led to the Seamounts invading Betony in the first place - remembering the old orcs that once lived there, and remembered that it was a very defensible place.

In this case, the order would be: Ayleids - Carzog Orcs - Direnni sealing it - Bretons living there - Seamount Orcs taking over.

That would explain both loading screen 1 and 2. And then after ESO, Bretons take it back and name it Betony again.

Integral1900 · October 2018

Also bear in mind that ZOS and Bethesda have a fairly laid back attitude to precision in terms of history and lore, the books are full of contradictions, distortions and outright lies........ pretty much like real history as a matter of fact

myskyrim26 · October 2018

@Robo_Hobo

Carzog Orcs seem to fit perfectly, thank you!

Robo_Hobo · October 2018

@myskyrim26

No problem.

Also, since I posted that, I just realized something. It's been awhile since I've done the quest, but I remember the big moral thing against using the relic, especially from the Orc's point of view, was because the relic would use the spirits of the orcs. But, as we see from the flashback, the king never ended up using the relic, he got killed before he could, so it wouldn't be the Seamount orc souls that would be used.

That means it must be the souls of the Orcs that were there between the Ayleids and the Direnni - which definitely explains why it was named Carzog's demise, if it resulted in all of them being trapped with the relic in some way, and would have been the catalyst for why the Direnni suddenly decided to seal the ruins in the first place.

myskyrim26 · October 2018

@Robo_Hobo

Thanks again! This definitely places Carzog Orcs where they should be, after Ayleid and before Direnni. Great!

Aristocles22 · October 2018

The lore of TES is so long and complex that there is virtually no way to keep it all 100% consistent. It would take an extreme effort on the part of the staff just to do that. This is why they have tried to handwave away some things by saying it was due to "a transcription error" or "the warp in the west" or maybe "Talos used CHIM to change it, including changing what it was so that it never was that at any point in time." As long as such discrepancies aren't too egregious, we should be fine with it.

That said, the huge war in ESO should have received a mention in the history books in the original games if it ever happened at all. And it is possible that some event in ESO later on will wipe it from the memory of later history. Or that it was forgotten after the excuse in the west.

Karm1cOne · October 2018

Best possible explanation, is unreliable narrator. The stories in elder scrolls are inconsistent all over the place. Mostly due to who is telling the story. Orc stories have orc heroes, same as all the other races.

Korah_Eaglecry · November 2018

myskyrim26 wrote: »

Ok, I did Betnikh island story – a fascinating one – and now I’m trying to compile a book on its history. And here’s what I have:
Loading screen 1, Carzog’s Demise: Way before Balfiera Elves sealed this Ayleid ruin during the Direnni Hegemony, the Orcs used this place for a very different purpose…

Ok. Direnni Hegemony. Here’s some lore: Clan Direnni rose in power in 1E 355. Than Aileids were absorbed by Direnni making them even more powerful. And in 1E 477 Direnni managed to conquer High Rock, some parts of Skyrim and Hammerfell – so, here’s a rough time of Hegemony, right?

BUT the Orcs that were referred to “used this place for a very different purpose” did it in 2 E – Second era!

Now, one more loading screen. Loading screen 2, Carzog’s Demise: This Ayleid ruin on Betnikh was sealed by the Balfiera Elves during the Direnni Hegemony, and its tunnels were never explored or catalogued by the Bretons who came after.

Wait. Bretons were already there when Orcs “used this place for a very different purpose” according to the quest.
I’m lost. Quest and other sources clearly say: Breton lived on island, then came Orcs and killed them. Where do Direnni fit then?

I stopped writing now... frustrated and lost.

Edit: shall I just throw Direnni away?... In this case the story will become neat and logical...

Seems there was some confusion about the timeline when that loading screen was created. It would have been Aylieds > Direnni > Bretons > Orcs.

The loading screen implies that there were Orcs running about on the island prior to the fall of the Hegemony.