Finding it increasingly hard to find people to do DLC dungeons
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lokulin✭✭✭✭✭Drummerx04 wrote: »To me, the difficulty of DLC dungeons was in a good place until the wolfhunter DLC. There were one shots in all of those dungeons, but mostly they were fairly visible and mostly fair. Dragon Bones had a steep difficulty spike in HM, and the mechanics were still mostly fair.
But wolfhunter just took it to a different kind of annoying. It's not fun to have constantly spawning snare spamming insta gib mobs coming at you constantly from all directions.
Have to agree with the increase in unbreakable snares and one shot kills is not as fun. I know they can be learned, interrupted or whatever but they definitely cause more group wipes and can slow the whole dungeon down. The more I think about it the more I see they are just adding previous boss mechanics to trash mobs. The getting turned in to a skeever trick in Moonhunter is very similar to the skeleton transform in Blackheart Haven. While I have no problemwith ramping up the difficulty, I do think that adding all these extra mechanics to trash mobs is part of the problem of dungeons feeling too long and not worth it for a lot of people. I still like my idea of ZOS releasing four short dungeons or maybe one long and two short dungeons in the next dungeon DLC. They seem to be going that trend with trials having learned that few want to spend as long as most do in the Halls of Fabrication.I've hidden your signature.5 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭Emma_Overload wrote: »FlyingSwan wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »SakuraRush wrote: »Most players want the biggest reward for the least effort in the smallest amount of time. In addition to that many of the DLC dungeons are a nightmare to pug. They have actual mechanics sometimes and that seems to baffle a great many player.
This isn't an issue unique to ESO and is something you will encounter in any MMO. Players want a "gimme loot" button. The moment loot is behind a challenge those players will call for nerfs.
So, you are one of these people who are saying that i have to work for my shiny items?
No, i dont. I am playing this game after work, to relax, and not to work again.
I dont want anything gifted or a "gimme all" button, i do vet hm dungeons, but it is rediculous, in my opinion, to spent time for learning mechanics and try and try over and over again to get some content done in a game i want to play.
I dont complain about trials and their hardmodes, i have never liked raids in any game i have played so far, i just hate the rediculous difficulty and the one shot mechanics of the most dlc dungeons and the fact, that ZOS keeps releasing only harder dungeons, nothing in sight for more casual players like me.
99.9 percent of this game is designed for casual players. Vet dlc hm 4 mans, the newer vet trial(s??), and maybe vma are considered hard content. Yep, excluding literally the rest of the entire game, nothing in sight for casuals.
99.9 percent of this game is OLD content. ZOS should not expect average players to keep subsidizing new DLC that only feature content designed for a tiny minority of players.
99 percent of all new released content is aimed at casual players. We got vet brp this time as hard content. The last 2 released dlc dungeons are hard on vet HM with MHK HM probably being the easiest dlc HM to complete of them all.
The last trial to be released was CR. My guild is full of casual folks where you'll get more accolades for completing master angler than you will for CR on vet and on launch day we walked in there (not on vet) with 12 people (most who don't raid) and blew through it with no strats at all while /lute during boss fights. This game is designed for the casual person first, period. All overland content that is released can be breezed through with light attacks only while drooling on yourself. So one piece of content per launch of new content is hard only if you CHOOSE to run it on the hard version which drops rewards barely better than the easy version of said content; dlc dungeons are 2 pieces of hard content if CHOSEN to ran on the hard version of them.
So other than the vet or hard mode version of what's released yearly, what is so hard about content that ZOS is releasing that casual players are having a hard time with? Delve bosses?
edit:
Normal CR was being cleared by people forming pugs of anyone in zone chat cp 160 + that would respond to the lfg requests the moment it launched.
You don't get it. These players you call casuals aren't just interested in fishing trophies. People WANT to do 4 man dungeons. They WANT to be healers and tanks and DPSers. On top of that, they want to get their hands on cool new gear. In many cases, they NEED that gear.
What people don't want are these hell mode DLC dungeons that require that you go watch videos on YouTube and memorize a bunch of complicated mechanics. The base game dungeons have mechanics, but they're usually pretty obvious and can be conquered by pugs if they try hard enough and their builds aren't compete trash.
And there are plenty of dungeons for such players, they are called 'normal' mode of anything. For players like myself (I am a casual player, albeit I hit CP cap the other week), we like a challenge, so there is vet mode. And that scales from faceroll (the vanilla content vet dungeons) to hard (the newer DLC vet dungeons) to punishing and not yet 'completable' for me, aka HM vet trials.
This seems just fine to me, there's a careful gradient of difficulty and depending where one's skills lie, one may or may not be able to complete it all today. But rest assured one will be able to one day. When vWGT landed I dreaded it popping in my random vet Finder, but now I can carry any group through it, such is power creep and the general improvement in my skills.
You seem to be implying that there's a generation of kiddies who want it all today. Well, that's not how life works; if one wishes to be a high achiever, one has to put the hours in. That's all part of the fun of life.
Like another poster said above, normal dungeons don't drop monster helms. This is a huge problem that guys like @BuddyAces don't seem to understand. ZOS has a long history of resetting the PvP meta by dropping grossly overpowered monster sets into these DLC dungeons. Doing DLC dungeons on normal does NOTHING to help PvP players who need to catch up to the meta FAST. And before you mention The Golden vendor, I'll point out that Zaan STILL hasn't been offered for sale.
So you're telling me that the average casual is too stupid to do mechanics? That's literally all vet dlc dungeons are, a mechanic check. If you can't complete a vet dungeon for a monster helm for pvp I guarantee you that you won't last 2 seconds in pvp with that monster set. BTW, MOS is the only dlc one that I have yet to not pug and complete on vet (not counting HM).
You've moved past the casual excuse and now you're championing for BAD players, players who stand in stupid and don't move out of it and players who stand in the back and just light/heavy attack their way through everything. If they can't be bothered to learn mechanics then vet isn't for them. It's not a dps issue since there are no dps checks anymore. Makes it easier sure, but not impossible.
Also, they can join a guild and get a group to run it. There are so many options to clearing vet content that it's not ZOS's fault if someone chooses not to take those steps.They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd4 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drummerx04 wrote: »To me, the difficulty of DLC dungeons was in a good place until the wolfhunter DLC. There were one shots in all of those dungeons, but mostly they were fairly visible and mostly fair. Dragon Bones had a steep difficulty spike in HM, and the mechanics were still mostly fair.
But wolfhunter just took it to a different kind of annoying. It's not fun to have constantly spawning snare spamming insta gib mobs coming at you constantly from all directions.
Have to agree with the increase in unbreakable snares and one shot kills is not as fun. I know they can be learned, interrupted or whatever but they definitely cause more group wipes and can slow the whole dungeon down. The more I think about it the more I see they are just adding previous boss mechanics to trash mobs. The getting turned in to a skeever trick in Moonhunter is very similar to the skeleton transform in Blackheart Haven. While I have no problemwith ramping up the difficulty, I do think that adding all these extra mechanics to trash mobs is part of the problem of dungeons feeling too long and not worth it for a lot of people. I still like my idea of ZOS releasing four short dungeons or maybe one long and two short dungeons in the next dungeon DLC. They seem to be going that trend with trials having learned that few want to spend as long as most do in the Halls of Fabrication.
Target the things that turn you into a skeever. Pro tip, they do it at the start of battle. Interrupt them. You shouldn't be a skeever for more than a couple secs (you can now explain this to future people you meet doing this).
Another pro tip, don't stand in front of the mobs that will one shot, maybe even a wait a second for tank to grab aggro on those pesky ones before you start going ham on the dps. You can also tell future tanks that you meet to aggro those pesky ones first.
Snaring is lame I agree but there are workarounds for it.
Timestop also works on almost every mob in MOS/MHK. Use it at the start of battle, it'll help tank aggro those pesky things that one shot you and give you a few more moments to burn em down before you get 1 shot if the tanks derps out.They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd0 -
lokulin✭✭✭✭✭It's not a dps issue since there are no dps checks anymore.
Just yesterday I was tanking for a PUG group that failed to finish Banished Cells II because they couldn't DPS him fast enough without Daedroths building up. They could barely kill Keeper Imiril so I should have dropped then tbh but was trying to be a good citizen. Droda in Direfrost keep is still a DPS check especially if people don't break free super fast. Dagrund the Bulky will continue summoning archers if you don't kill them fast enough. Any boss that heals or summons extra adds on a timer will essentially be a DPS check as there is only so much damage a tank can take while collecting adds. There are also some softer DPS checks like Aghaedh of the Solstice or the Plannar Inhibitor that can have mechanics that can be skipped if you burn them fast enough otherwise there are mechanics that can easily wipe groups when the DPS is too low. So yes, there are still DPS checks.Also, they can join a guild and get a group to run it..
Not excusing people not being able to learn the content but my original post was about how despite being in a guild and having a (dwindling) friends list it is still hard to actually get groups together to do harder content, especially DLCs for HMs, no deaths or just helm runs. And I know I am part of the problem sometimes. I've turned down a guildmate multiple times in the last week to do a Falkreath run for an extra helm because I've been spending all my time either trying to organise some Bloodroot runs with guildmates and friends or spending hours in pugs just for them to fail at the last boss because they don't quite have the DPS or aren't getting the mechanics. So just be joining a guild ins't always the answer.
I've hidden your signature.2 -
lokulin✭✭✭✭✭Drummerx04 wrote: »To me, the difficulty of DLC dungeons was in a good place until the wolfhunter DLC. There were one shots in all of those dungeons, but mostly they were fairly visible and mostly fair. Dragon Bones had a steep difficulty spike in HM, and the mechanics were still mostly fair.
But wolfhunter just took it to a different kind of annoying. It's not fun to have constantly spawning snare spamming insta gib mobs coming at you constantly from all directions.
Have to agree with the increase in unbreakable snares and one shot kills is not as fun. I know they can be learned, interrupted or whatever but they definitely cause more group wipes and can slow the whole dungeon down. The more I think about it the more I see they are just adding previous boss mechanics to trash mobs. The getting turned in to a skeever trick in Moonhunter is very similar to the skeleton transform in Blackheart Haven. While I have no problemwith ramping up the difficulty, I do think that adding all these extra mechanics to trash mobs is part of the problem of dungeons feeling too long and not worth it for a lot of people. I still like my idea of ZOS releasing four short dungeons or maybe one long and two short dungeons in the next dungeon DLC. They seem to be going that trend with trials having learned that few want to spend as long as most do in the Halls of Fabrication.
Target the things that turn you into a skeever. Pro tip, they do it at the start of battle. Interrupt them. You shouldn't be a skeever for more than a couple secs (you can now explain this to future people you meet doing this).
Another pro tip, don't stand in front of the mobs that will one shot, maybe even a wait a second for tank to grab aggro on those pesky ones before you start going ham on the dps. You can also tell future tanks that you meet to aggro those pesky ones first.
Snaring is lame I agree but there are workarounds for it.
Timestop also works on almost every mob in MOS/MHK. Use it at the start of battle, it'll help tank aggro those pesky things that one shot you and give you a few more moments to burn em down before you get 1 shot if the tanks derps out.
All these are great tips that I personally already follow as both tank, DPS and the occasional healer. It doesn't really solve the issue of actually finding people to run the harder content or the potential reasons behind why it is harder to find people.I've hidden your signature.1 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭While I have no problemwith ramping up the difficulty, I do think that adding all these extra mechanics to trash mobs is part of the problem of dungeons feeling too long and not worth it for a lot of people.
The boss mechanics in trash mobs, combined with the length, and especially the overabundance of CC, to me, begins to get annoying. I myself would be happier with shorter dungeons, maybe 2 in each DLC, rather than one long dungeon that simply soaks up too much time. And LESS CC!!!!
Honestly, devs, not every single mob in the game has to have CC. Gah! I start to feel like I'm getting punished for playing the game sometimes.
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BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's not a dps issue since there are no dps checks anymore.
Just yesterday I was tanking for a PUG group that failed to finish Banished Cells II because they couldn't DPS him fast enough without Daedroths building up. They could barely kill Keeper Imiril so I should have dropped then tbh but was trying to be a good citizen. Droda in Direfrost keep is still a DPS check especially if people don't break free super fast. Dagrund the Bulky will continue summoning archers if you don't kill them fast enough. Any boss that heals or summons extra adds on a timer will essentially be a DPS check as there is only so much damage a tank can take while collecting adds. There are also some softer DPS checks like Aghaedh of the Solstice or the Plannar Inhibitor that can have mechanics that can be skipped if you burn them fast enough otherwise there are mechanics that can easily wipe groups when the DPS is too low. So yes, there are still DPS checks.Also, they can join a guild and get a group to run it..
Not excusing people not being able to learn the content but my original post was about how despite being in a guild and having a (dwindling) friends list it is still hard to actually get groups together to do harder content, especially DLCs for HMs, no deaths or just helm runs. And I know I am part of the problem sometimes. I've turned down a guildmate multiple times in the last week to do a Falkreath run for an extra helm because I've been spending all my time either trying to organise some Bloodroot runs with guildmates and friends or spending hours in pugs just for them to fail at the last boss because they don't quite have the DPS or aren't getting the mechanics. So just be joining a guild ins't always the answer.
That's why I said no dps checks anymore.
There are still a couple actual real dps checks still in place in old content.
They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd0 -
lokulin✭✭✭✭✭It's not a dps issue since there are no dps checks anymore.
Just yesterday I was tanking for a PUG group that failed to finish Banished Cells II because they couldn't DPS him fast enough without Daedroths building up. They could barely kill Keeper Imiril so I should have dropped then tbh but was trying to be a good citizen. Droda in Direfrost keep is still a DPS check especially if people don't break free super fast. Dagrund the Bulky will continue summoning archers if you don't kill them fast enough. Any boss that heals or summons extra adds on a timer will essentially be a DPS check as there is only so much damage a tank can take while collecting adds. There are also some softer DPS checks like Aghaedh of the Solstice or the Plannar Inhibitor that can have mechanics that can be skipped if you burn them fast enough otherwise there are mechanics that can easily wipe groups when the DPS is too low. So yes, there are still DPS checks.Also, they can join a guild and get a group to run it..
Not excusing people not being able to learn the content but my original post was about how despite being in a guild and having a (dwindling) friends list it is still hard to actually get groups together to do harder content, especially DLCs for HMs, no deaths or just helm runs. And I know I am part of the problem sometimes. I've turned down a guildmate multiple times in the last week to do a Falkreath run for an extra helm because I've been spending all my time either trying to organise some Bloodroot runs with guildmates and friends or spending hours in pugs just for them to fail at the last boss because they don't quite have the DPS or aren't getting the mechanics. So just be joining a guild ins't always the answer.
That's why I said no dps checks anymore.
There are still a couple actual real dps checks still in place in old content.
Dagrund the Bulky in March of Sacrifices still poses some problems for groups with super low DPS. Even with clearing lava using the blood fountain in Bloodroot Forge lava can still build up once you have three amalgams up. Not to mention the huge pressure on the tank if they have to hold the three amalgams for a long time. Running out of columns in Falkreath hold. If DPS can't kill the crystals and hence the bone colossus in Fang Lair fast enough you are going to have a bad time. I'd say any of those are DPS checks of a sort and not things you can just avoid by following some mechanic like cleansing in a pool, pulling a lever, or dodging a one shot.I've hidden your signature.1 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It's not a dps issue since there are no dps checks anymore.
Just yesterday I was tanking for a PUG group that failed to finish Banished Cells II because they couldn't DPS him fast enough without Daedroths building up. They could barely kill Keeper Imiril so I should have dropped then tbh but was trying to be a good citizen. Droda in Direfrost keep is still a DPS check especially if people don't break free super fast. Dagrund the Bulky will continue summoning archers if you don't kill them fast enough. Any boss that heals or summons extra adds on a timer will essentially be a DPS check as there is only so much damage a tank can take while collecting adds. There are also some softer DPS checks like Aghaedh of the Solstice or the Plannar Inhibitor that can have mechanics that can be skipped if you burn them fast enough otherwise there are mechanics that can easily wipe groups when the DPS is too low. So yes, there are still DPS checks.Also, they can join a guild and get a group to run it..
Not excusing people not being able to learn the content but my original post was about how despite being in a guild and having a (dwindling) friends list it is still hard to actually get groups together to do harder content, especially DLCs for HMs, no deaths or just helm runs. And I know I am part of the problem sometimes. I've turned down a guildmate multiple times in the last week to do a Falkreath run for an extra helm because I've been spending all my time either trying to organise some Bloodroot runs with guildmates and friends or spending hours in pugs just for them to fail at the last boss because they don't quite have the DPS or aren't getting the mechanics. So just be joining a guild ins't always the answer.
That's why I said no dps checks anymore.
There are still a couple actual real dps checks still in place in old content.
Dagrund the Bulky in March of Sacrifices still poses some problems for groups with super low DPS. Even with clearing lava using the blood fountain in Bloodroot Forge lava can still build up once you have three amalgams up. Not to mention the huge pressure on the tank if they have to hold the three amalgams for a long time. Running out of columns in Falkreath hold. If DPS can't kill the crystals and hence the bone colossus in Fang Lair fast enough you are going to have a bad time. I'd say any of those are DPS checks of a sort and not things you can just avoid by following some mechanic like cleansing in a pool, pulling a lever, or dodging a one shot.
I can really relate to your command about tanking Bloodroot Forge.0 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's not a dps issue since there are no dps checks anymore.
Just yesterday I was tanking for a PUG group that failed to finish Banished Cells II because they couldn't DPS him fast enough without Daedroths building up. They could barely kill Keeper Imiril so I should have dropped then tbh but was trying to be a good citizen. Droda in Direfrost keep is still a DPS check especially if people don't break free super fast. Dagrund the Bulky will continue summoning archers if you don't kill them fast enough. Any boss that heals or summons extra adds on a timer will essentially be a DPS check as there is only so much damage a tank can take while collecting adds. There are also some softer DPS checks like Aghaedh of the Solstice or the Plannar Inhibitor that can have mechanics that can be skipped if you burn them fast enough otherwise there are mechanics that can easily wipe groups when the DPS is too low. So yes, there are still DPS checks.Also, they can join a guild and get a group to run it..
Not excusing people not being able to learn the content but my original post was about how despite being in a guild and having a (dwindling) friends list it is still hard to actually get groups together to do harder content, especially DLCs for HMs, no deaths or just helm runs. And I know I am part of the problem sometimes. I've turned down a guildmate multiple times in the last week to do a Falkreath run for an extra helm because I've been spending all my time either trying to organise some Bloodroot runs with guildmates and friends or spending hours in pugs just for them to fail at the last boss because they don't quite have the DPS or aren't getting the mechanics. So just be joining a guild ins't always the answer.
That's why I said no dps checks anymore.
There are still a couple actual real dps checks still in place in old content.
Dagrund the Bulky in March of Sacrifices still poses some problems for groups with super low DPS. Even with clearing lava using the blood fountain in Bloodroot Forge lava can still build up once you have three amalgams up. Not to mention the huge pressure on the tank if they have to hold the three amalgams for a long time. Running out of columns in Falkreath hold. If DPS can't kill the crystals and hence the bone colossus in Fang Lair fast enough you are going to have a bad time. I'd say any of those are DPS checks of a sort and not things you can just avoid by following some mechanic like cleansing in a pool, pulling a lever, or dodging a one shot.
Then maybe those people aren't ready for that content
They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd0 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭randomkeyhits wrote: »This bit is definitely wrong, with horizontal progression, all players can access all the content, they may not be able to complete but they can access and if they want, they can learn.
Horizontal progression, eh? Where I'm from that's just called "going sideways".1 -
lokulin✭✭✭✭✭It's not a dps issue since there are no dps checks anymore.
Just yesterday I was tanking for a PUG group that failed to finish Banished Cells II because they couldn't DPS him fast enough without Daedroths building up. They could barely kill Keeper Imiril so I should have dropped then tbh but was trying to be a good citizen. Droda in Direfrost keep is still a DPS check especially if people don't break free super fast. Dagrund the Bulky will continue summoning archers if you don't kill them fast enough. Any boss that heals or summons extra adds on a timer will essentially be a DPS check as there is only so much damage a tank can take while collecting adds. There are also some softer DPS checks like Aghaedh of the Solstice or the Plannar Inhibitor that can have mechanics that can be skipped if you burn them fast enough otherwise there are mechanics that can easily wipe groups when the DPS is too low. So yes, there are still DPS checks.Also, they can join a guild and get a group to run it..
Not excusing people not being able to learn the content but my original post was about how despite being in a guild and having a (dwindling) friends list it is still hard to actually get groups together to do harder content, especially DLCs for HMs, no deaths or just helm runs. And I know I am part of the problem sometimes. I've turned down a guildmate multiple times in the last week to do a Falkreath run for an extra helm because I've been spending all my time either trying to organise some Bloodroot runs with guildmates and friends or spending hours in pugs just for them to fail at the last boss because they don't quite have the DPS or aren't getting the mechanics. So just be joining a guild ins't always the answer.
That's why I said no dps checks anymore.
There are still a couple actual real dps checks still in place in old content.
Dagrund the Bulky in March of Sacrifices still poses some problems for groups with super low DPS. Even with clearing lava using the blood fountain in Bloodroot Forge lava can still build up once you have three amalgams up. Not to mention the huge pressure on the tank if they have to hold the three amalgams for a long time. Running out of columns in Falkreath hold. If DPS can't kill the crystals and hence the bone colossus in Fang Lair fast enough you are going to have a bad time. I'd say any of those are DPS checks of a sort and not things you can just avoid by following some mechanic like cleansing in a pool, pulling a lever, or dodging a one shot.
Then maybe those people aren't ready for that content
No argument there. PUG life.I've hidden your signature.0 -
Seri✭✭✭✭
It's really getting a bit fuzzy if the logic is 'people aren't following mechanics properly, thus it's a DPS check'. I'd argue that it's moreso a mechanics check. Similarly, almost every mechanic can be skipped if you have high enough DPS, but that's not because it's a DPS check.It's not a dps issue since there are no dps checks anymore.
Just yesterday I was tanking for a PUG group that failed to finish Banished Cells II because they couldn't DPS him fast enough without Daedroths building up. They could barely kill Keeper Imiril so I should have dropped then tbh but was trying to be a good citizen. Droda in Direfrost keep is still a DPS check especially if people don't break free super fast. Dagrund the Bulky will continue summoning archers if you don't kill them fast enough. Any boss that heals or summons extra adds on a timer will essentially be a DPS check as there is only so much damage a tank can take while collecting adds. There are also some softer DPS checks like Aghaedh of the Solstice or the Plannar Inhibitor that can have mechanics that can be skipped if you burn them fast enough otherwise there are mechanics that can easily wipe groups when the DPS is too low. So yes, there are still DPS checks.
I agree the bosses that summon based on timers are dps-checks but these have also existed in the base game for a looooong time. Mage in AA, the storm atro in Tempest kinda has a 'dps-checky' execute. Even the Bloodspawn in Spindle 2 will eventually collapse the room. Take the example of the Planar Inhibitor though, I don't think there's anything in there that specifically has a minimum DPS - kill portals when screen goes white (two people get portals at once to help the complaints of 'I'm a tank I have no dmg'), alternate with the pinion, then no adds will spawn, and the fire DOT dmg from the pinion periodically resets, then repeat.
I'm about 95% sure for execute, but 100% sure for the rest of that fight the columns are health % based, not time based, so there's no reason you should run out of columns.Dagrund the Bulky in March of Sacrifices still poses some problems for groups with super low DPS. Even with clearing lava using the blood fountain in Bloodroot Forge lava can still build up once you have three amalgams up. Not to mention the huge pressure on the tank if they have to hold the three amalgams for a long time. Running out of columns in Falkreath hold. If DPS can't kill the crystals and hence the bone colossus in Fang Lair fast enough you are going to have a bad time. I'd say any of those are DPS checks of a sort and not things you can just avoid by following some mechanic like cleansing in a pool, pulling a lever, or dodging a one shot.
That, I agree with. CC in the last couple of patches is everywhere.While I have no problemwith ramping up the difficulty, I do think that adding all these extra mechanics to trash mobs is part of the problem of dungeons feeling too long and not worth it for a lot of people.
The boss mechanics in trash mobs, combined with the length, and especially the overabundance of CC, to me, begins to get annoying. I myself would be happier with shorter dungeons, maybe 2 in each DLC, rather than one long dungeon that simply soaks up too much time. And LESS CC!!!!
Honestly, devs, not every single mob in the game has to have CC. Gah! I start to feel like I'm getting punished for playing the game sometimes.EP CP160+ Templar, Sorc, NB
DC CP160+ Templar, Sorc, DK1 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭El_Borracho wrote: »@Linaleah I suppose fun is relative. I enjoy it when there is a challenge and the DLC dungeons deliver that. I enjoy MOS, but only with a competent group. With an incompetent group, it is flat-out unbearable. Not saying you or your group are incompetent, but it does sound like they were not ready for it. There has to be a floor for damage dealing, right? Otherwise dungeons would just be overland content part deux.
You can only run COA I or EH I so many times. For me, the only reason to do those is to get Undaunted keys and transmute geodes. They are still fun, in that you can lawnmower your way through them in no time, but not as fun as when you first did them because there is no challenge to them anymore.
I'd rather do a DLC dungeon than something annoying where one of the sub-bosses has an random one shot with no warning (like Spindleclutch 1). Its one thing to die because the boss or dungeon is dealing higher damage, its another to lose the RNG lottery on an undodgeable one-shot mechanic.
no that group wasn't ready for it. and yet, we were thrown into it anyways. it was a pug... that communicated and followed mechanics. but couldn't do it anyways (and it absolutely was a dps check that got us - I mean, yeah the group dps was low, but also, like I said, this was a pug with most players not even lvl 50). and its not like DLC's don't have their share of one shot mechanics that have very little warning, so god help you if your ping is not perfect.
moreover. yes. fun is most certainly relative. there are people who play Dark souls on hardest difficulty becasue for them - its fun. the question is... how many of these people play ESO vs people who do not enjoy difficult AND lengthy content? (DLC dungeons are not merely challenging, they seem to be as long, of not longer as some trials) and I'm not saying that people shoudln't play for challenge, or that ZoS shouldn't create challenging content. I'm just saying that this may just explain why groups are so difficult to find.
becasue these dungeons are pushing that boundary where they might be "fun" to learn, but once you got all the rewards? they are just not fun to keep running.Edited by Linaleah on November 1, 2018 3:02AMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
TheDarkShadow✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's not that I'm not enjoying the new DLC dungeon. I love doing them, even in HM. The problem is you need to have a good group for it to be enjoyable, and for some people it's not easy to find a group of people with same playtime, pleasant to play with, and at least capable of finishing these harder contents. I've tried to run these with random people when my friends are not online and 95% of the time it's just a waste of potions and time and we can't finish it. And once for some reason a couple of these friends stop playing, the thinking of going thru a series of un-enjoyable runs just to find another fit is discouraging.Edited by TheDarkShadow on November 1, 2018 3:26AM3 -
lokulin✭✭✭✭✭
You are probably right here although groups with low dps usually also end up not doing the pillar mechanic correctly and using up multiple pillars per shout. A better example for Falkreath would be the build up of atronachs during execute phase.
Really my point was there are still plenty of dps checks in the new dungeons and anyone that claims otherwise probably hasn't run with a group that has failed on them.
edit: formattingEdited by lokulin on November 1, 2018 3:55AMI've hidden your signature.0 -
xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
✭You aren't alone (EU here) waited 15 minutes on Groupfinder multiple times, got so bored that I pugged Vet helra for Advancing Yokeda lmaoAh, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.0 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭My issue isn't finding people to run DLC dungeons, it's finding people with 2 functioning synapses to understand mechanics, including the most simplistic of mechanics like bashing to interrupt.
I can't explain the level of frustration I feel when a group wipes due to an easily executed mechanic being ignored. Bash the WW in MHK when tank is pinned? Nope. Kill the ghost that has chained the healer in FL? Nope. Grabbing the damn pinion in WGT? Absolutely not.
None of those mechanics is hard by any stretch of the imagination but you can bet your ass I've died to each one of them and I can't blame anyone else but my teammates because you're literally at their mercy and they let you down, every single time.Argonian forever4 -
randomkeyhits✭✭✭✭✭Part of the problem is the messaging from ZOS.
They really need to grade each dungeon and trial and have it in the info. If a normal spindleclutch 1 was difficulty 1 while vet bloodroot forge was a 7 then it would help signal to players which content they are nominally capable of, if they are honest with themselves.
Once you have that grading then ZOS can also add things like recommended level of DPS for the group. Not forum levels or player-who-wants-carry-so- high-levels-only levels but a clear reference level that is consistent.
It also helps some players not be disheartened as they get a much clearer progression path through this content.EU PS41 -
ZombieFodderSoul ShrivenDiminishing returns. Probably because people started demanding harder and harder content, because they and their 2 friends want it, but the rest of the world doesn't want to be stuck in a dungeon for 3 hours trying to do ridiculously diffficult content. Plus anyone who contends with lag, like a lot of us Aussies, might as well not even bother joining the group.
I like moderately challenging content, but don't want frustration. If I want to be frustrated, I go to work, and they pay me for it.
And before it gets said, no, most people can't solo a group dungeon, even FG1, and they can't pull 40K dps.
This, times a million. I'm a new player, I just hit 160cp yesterday. I've been doing normal dungeons since my first day a few weeks ago, and they've all been fine... except one. Yesterday I queued into a dungeon called Cradle of Shadows. It was an absolute nightmare. It's like they ramped the difficulty up to 10, out of nowhere.
Every other dungeon I've done was fun and took about 20 minutes or so, this one... about TWO HOURS. No special rewards, just the same old regular gear. There is nothing fun about that. Now instead of looking forward to doing my daily dungeon, I dread getting that dungeon or another one like it again. I may just stop using the dungeon finder now.7 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »I'm among those who won't go near DLC dungeons and several version II of the non-DLC dungeons. I know exactly the level of challenge I want and that does not include what I consider to be silly, convoluted or even downright stupid mechanics (dps checks, bosses who ignore taunts, one shot kills, hitting 'pinions (or whatever) in a certain order during the proper phase when the moons are full on a Mardas. . . . ). If I feel obliged to spend time watching You Tube walkthroughs, that tells me I'm not interested in the dungeon.
Has nothing to do with loot. You need top level gear to do top level content. Since I have no interest in top level content, I have no interest in top level gear. My healer, for example, has no interest in SPC - and for the content she enjoys she is a wonderful healer.
For those who enjoy the DLC dungeons, I am glad they are there. I'm even more glad that the more basic dungeons remain. . . more basic.
There is some very good discussion in this thread.
This post says what I wanted, only better.
The only thing I would add, maybe there is an argument for a story mode to all DLC dungeons. Mechanics closer to the original dungeons and as a consequence you do not get the motif or specialist armour sets.
More "hard mode" players play the DLC as is and get the challenge and reward of the loot, more "casual" players play story mode and the reward of completing content (which they have paid for either directly or through the ESO+)
I read this statement a lot on these forums and I always chuckle. No one paid money to be able to just do the content, you paid money to be able to ATTEMPT the content. Not all the content in this games difficulty should be adjusted to lowest skill level just because people paid for the game. They paid for the right to attempt the content, not necessarily for the right to clear it at a low skill level.
While I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, if they continue to make dlc dungeon gear/motifs inaccessible to the majority of the playerbase, they won't sell enough to justify the development time and cost.
How's it inaccessible?They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd1 -
randomkeyhits✭✭✭✭✭
Maybe he's thinking of Welkynar from the trial rather than a dungeon.AcadianPaladin wrote: »I'm among those who won't go near DLC dungeons and several version II of the non-DLC dungeons. I know exactly the level of challenge I want and that does not include what I consider to be silly, convoluted or even downright stupid mechanics (dps checks, bosses who ignore taunts, one shot kills, hitting 'pinions (or whatever) in a certain order during the proper phase when the moons are full on a Mardas. . . . ). If I feel obliged to spend time watching You Tube walkthroughs, that tells me I'm not interested in the dungeon.
Has nothing to do with loot. You need top level gear to do top level content. Since I have no interest in top level content, I have no interest in top level gear. My healer, for example, has no interest in SPC - and for the content she enjoys she is a wonderful healer.
For those who enjoy the DLC dungeons, I am glad they are there. I'm even more glad that the more basic dungeons remain. . . more basic.
There is some very good discussion in this thread.
This post says what I wanted, only better.
The only thing I would add, maybe there is an argument for a story mode to all DLC dungeons. Mechanics closer to the original dungeons and as a consequence you do not get the motif or specialist armour sets.
More "hard mode" players play the DLC as is and get the challenge and reward of the loot, more "casual" players play story mode and the reward of completing content (which they have paid for either directly or through the ESO+)
I read this statement a lot on these forums and I always chuckle. No one paid money to be able to just do the content, you paid money to be able to ATTEMPT the content. Not all the content in this games difficulty should be adjusted to lowest skill level just because people paid for the game. They paid for the right to attempt the content, not necessarily for the right to clear it at a low skill level.
While I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, if they continue to make dlc dungeon gear/motifs inaccessible to the majority of the playerbase, they won't sell enough to justify the development time and cost.
How's it inaccessible?
EU PS40 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭randomkeyhits wrote: »
Maybe he's thinking of Welkynar from the trial rather than a dungeon.AcadianPaladin wrote: »I'm among those who won't go near DLC dungeons and several version II of the non-DLC dungeons. I know exactly the level of challenge I want and that does not include what I consider to be silly, convoluted or even downright stupid mechanics (dps checks, bosses who ignore taunts, one shot kills, hitting 'pinions (or whatever) in a certain order during the proper phase when the moons are full on a Mardas. . . . ). If I feel obliged to spend time watching You Tube walkthroughs, that tells me I'm not interested in the dungeon.
Has nothing to do with loot. You need top level gear to do top level content. Since I have no interest in top level content, I have no interest in top level gear. My healer, for example, has no interest in SPC - and for the content she enjoys she is a wonderful healer.
For those who enjoy the DLC dungeons, I am glad they are there. I'm even more glad that the more basic dungeons remain. . . more basic.
There is some very good discussion in this thread.
This post says what I wanted, only better.
The only thing I would add, maybe there is an argument for a story mode to all DLC dungeons. Mechanics closer to the original dungeons and as a consequence you do not get the motif or specialist armour sets.
More "hard mode" players play the DLC as is and get the challenge and reward of the loot, more "casual" players play story mode and the reward of completing content (which they have paid for either directly or through the ESO+)
I read this statement a lot on these forums and I always chuckle. No one paid money to be able to just do the content, you paid money to be able to ATTEMPT the content. Not all the content in this games difficulty should be adjusted to lowest skill level just because people paid for the game. They paid for the right to attempt the content, not necessarily for the right to clear it at a low skill level.
While I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, if they continue to make dlc dungeon gear/motifs inaccessible to the majority of the playerbase, they won't sell enough to justify the development time and cost.
How's it inaccessible?
Someone should tell him you can buy em from traders.They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd1 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZombieFodder wrote: »
This, times a million. I'm a new player, I just hit 160cp yesterday. I've been doing normal dungeons since my first day a few weeks ago, and they've all been fine... except one. Yesterday I queued into a dungeon called Cradle of Shadows. It was an absolute nightmare. It's like they ramped the difficulty up to 10, out of nowhere.
Every other dungeon I've done was fun and took about 20 minutes or so, this one... about TWO HOURS. No special rewards, just the same old regular gear. There is nothing fun about that. Now instead of looking forward to doing my daily dungeon, I dread getting that dungeon or another one like it again. I may just stop using the dungeon finder now.
Normal DLC is roughly as hard as Vet Classic <vet classic 2's>. They do require players to do more than just spam rotation at mob and it die though.
Normal typically is forgiving unless you totally ignore everything and run into AoE after AoE. As you level up you will find things like Wayrest 1 even on vet become vastly outdated where you ignore your tank and run headlong into 12 mobs and slaughter them all. Thats why DLC dungeons were created.
If your PC NA and need some help with dungeon I would be happy to give a tour. Usually run Tank/3 DPS to speed stuff up.Edited by karekiz on November 1, 2018 3:37PM0 -
Katahdin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mm.randomkeyhits wrote: »
Maybe he's thinking of Welkynar from the trial rather than a dungeon.AcadianPaladin wrote: »I'm among those who won't go near DLC dungeons and several version II of the non-DLC dungeons. I know exactly the level of challenge I want and that does not include what I consider to be silly, convoluted or even downright stupid mechanics (dps checks, bosses who ignore taunts, one shot kills, hitting 'pinions (or whatever) in a certain order during the proper phase when the moons are full on a Mardas. . . . ). If I feel obliged to spend time watching You Tube walkthroughs, that tells me I'm not interested in the dungeon.
Has nothing to do with loot. You need top level gear to do top level content. Since I have no interest in top level content, I have no interest in top level gear. My healer, for example, has no interest in SPC - and for the content she enjoys she is a wonderful healer.
For those who enjoy the DLC dungeons, I am glad they are there. I'm even more glad that the more basic dungeons remain. . . more basic.
There is some very good discussion in this thread.
This post says what I wanted, only better.
The only thing I would add, maybe there is an argument for a story mode to all DLC dungeons. Mechanics closer to the original dungeons and as a consequence you do not get the motif or specialist armour sets.
More "hard mode" players play the DLC as is and get the challenge and reward of the loot, more "casual" players play story mode and the reward of completing content (which they have paid for either directly or through the ESO+)
I read this statement a lot on these forums and I always chuckle. No one paid money to be able to just do the content, you paid money to be able to ATTEMPT the content. Not all the content in this games difficulty should be adjusted to lowest skill level just because people paid for the game. They paid for the right to attempt the content, not necessarily for the right to clear it at a low skill level.
While I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, if they continue to make dlc dungeon gear/motifs inaccessible to the majority of the playerbase, they won't sell enough to justify the development time and cost.
How's it inaccessible?
Someone should tell him you can buy em from traders.
I mean all the DLC dungeon motif pages that only drop on HM with any chance whatsoever.
You know exactly what I mean by its not accessible. And no, buying from a trader for 250-300K per page is not a substitute for being accessible
I will buy it from crownstore before I spend all my time farming gold to pay those kinds of pricesEdited by Katahdin on November 1, 2018 4:42PMBeta tester November 20132 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mm.randomkeyhits wrote: »
Maybe he's thinking of Welkynar from the trial rather than a dungeon.AcadianPaladin wrote: »I'm among those who won't go near DLC dungeons and several version II of the non-DLC dungeons. I know exactly the level of challenge I want and that does not include what I consider to be silly, convoluted or even downright stupid mechanics (dps checks, bosses who ignore taunts, one shot kills, hitting 'pinions (or whatever) in a certain order during the proper phase when the moons are full on a Mardas. . . . ). If I feel obliged to spend time watching You Tube walkthroughs, that tells me I'm not interested in the dungeon.
Has nothing to do with loot. You need top level gear to do top level content. Since I have no interest in top level content, I have no interest in top level gear. My healer, for example, has no interest in SPC - and for the content she enjoys she is a wonderful healer.
For those who enjoy the DLC dungeons, I am glad they are there. I'm even more glad that the more basic dungeons remain. . . more basic.
There is some very good discussion in this thread.
This post says what I wanted, only better.
The only thing I would add, maybe there is an argument for a story mode to all DLC dungeons. Mechanics closer to the original dungeons and as a consequence you do not get the motif or specialist armour sets.
More "hard mode" players play the DLC as is and get the challenge and reward of the loot, more "casual" players play story mode and the reward of completing content (which they have paid for either directly or through the ESO+)
I read this statement a lot on these forums and I always chuckle. No one paid money to be able to just do the content, you paid money to be able to ATTEMPT the content. Not all the content in this games difficulty should be adjusted to lowest skill level just because people paid for the game. They paid for the right to attempt the content, not necessarily for the right to clear it at a low skill level.
While I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, if they continue to make dlc dungeon gear/motifs inaccessible to the majority of the playerbase, they won't sell enough to justify the development time and cost.
How's it inaccessible?
Someone should tell him you can buy em from traders.
I mean all the DLC dungeon motif pages that only drop on HM with any chance whatsoever.
You know exactly what I mean by its not accessible. And no, buying from a trader for 250-300K per page is not a substitute for being accessible
I will buy it from crownstore before I spend all my time farming gold to pay those kinds of prices
Outside of some chests and maybe certain weapons, most of the pieces are only worth 10-25k. They use to be way higher but the motiff market still hasn't recovered from the event that dropped motifs like candy.
The new dlc dungeons have a chance to drop em on regular vet.
There are avenues you can take to get them. You choosing not to take them is on you.They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd0 -
FlyingSwan✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »FlyingSwan wrote: »
And there are plenty of dungeons for such players, they are called 'normal' mode of anything. For players like myself (I am a casual player, albeit I hit CP cap the other week), we like a challenge, so there is vet mode. And that scales from faceroll (the vanilla content vet dungeons) to hard (the newer DLC vet dungeons) to punishing and not yet 'completable' for me, aka HM vet trials.
This seems just fine to me, there's a careful gradient of difficulty and depending where one's skills lie, one may or may not be able to complete it all today. But rest assured one will be able to one day. When vWGT landed I dreaded it popping in my random vet Finder, but now I can carry any group through it, such is power creep and the general improvement in my skills.
You seem to be implying that there's a generation of kiddies who want it all today. Well, that's not how life works; if one wishes to be a high achiever, one has to put the hours in. That's all part of the fun of life.
Like another poster said above, normal dungeons don't drop monster helms. This is a huge problem that guys like @BuddyAces don't seem to understand. ZOS has a long history of resetting the PvP meta by dropping grossly overpowered monster sets into these DLC dungeons. Doing DLC dungeons on normal does NOTHING to help PvP players who need to catch up to the meta FAST. And before you mention The Golden vendor, I'll point out that Zaan STILL hasn't been offered for sale.
I don't wear monster helms from the new DLC, they are not some enormous power uplift. In fact, I still wear some crafted gear:
DPS NB - Hundings + Blood Moon + Molag Kena on my WW and I can get up to 35k sustained rising to 43k if the Gods of Proc align
DK Tank - Torugs + Ebon + Bloodspawn or Lord Warden and I tank vet trials, and I sometimes swap out Torugs for Alkosh if the guild ask, but of course that can be farmed very quickly in normal MoL, which is easy enough
I don't have a problem without the latest gear, people are sheep because they read it on Alcast or wherever, doesn't mean it's going to turn the sort of person who can't complete some content into a god who stomps on all content. It's a quite ridiculous notion, a good rotation and knowing the char inside out will have a far more consistent effect on the game than RNG.
For the NB I farmed Relequen easily enough in nCR but am not sure it gives me anything that useful over Hundings. Maybe Perfect will but I have not set about farming that, because I don't feel I have to jump aboard the train to Grind City, I play the content I like when I like, and if the gear drops out the bottom of that, that's a bonus. You know, I treat ESO like a game, not a job.
Edited by FlyingSwan on November 1, 2018 6:35PM1 -
Marcusito✭✭✭Bloodroot Forge and F-Hold final boses have been a crap fest for me so far. Some of the new DLC just isn’t pug friendly. Everything else I can breeze thru. I just didn’t know the vet-mechanics but got them now. You need situational awareness, movement, good dps, and some mario skills to get them done.
I’ll get there, just not there yet.
0 -
Malprave✭✭✭✭✭ZombieFodder wrote: »Diminishing returns. Probably because people started demanding harder and harder content, because they and their 2 friends want it, but the rest of the world doesn't want to be stuck in a dungeon for 3 hours trying to do ridiculously diffficult content. Plus anyone who contends with lag, like a lot of us Aussies, might as well not even bother joining the group.
I like moderately challenging content, but don't want frustration. If I want to be frustrated, I go to work, and they pay me for it.
And before it gets said, no, most people can't solo a group dungeon, even FG1, and they can't pull 40K dps.
This, times a million. I'm a new player, I just hit 160cp yesterday. I've been doing normal dungeons since my first day a few weeks ago, and they've all been fine... except one. Yesterday I queued into a dungeon called Cradle of Shadows. It was an absolute nightmare. It's like they ramped the difficulty up to 10, out of nowhere.
Every other dungeon I've done was fun and took about 20 minutes or so, this one... about TWO HOURS. No special rewards, just the same old regular gear. There is nothing fun about that. Now instead of looking forward to doing my daily dungeon, I dread getting that dungeon or another one like it again. I may just stop using the dungeon finder now.
If I’m reading your post correctly, you have only been playing the game a few weeks and you cleared Cradle of Shadows. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say your complaint has no validity whatsoever.2