Potential Solution to "FAKE TANK!!!" Problem

p00tx · October 2018

So, hear me out here, as this is just a rough idea. What if during the queueing process, a buff/debuff were added to each subclass to create an incentive to queue properly? Maybe Tanks get a block cost reduction, healing taken increase, but have their dmg neutered. Healers could have an increase to heals, add 5-10 seconds (or whatever) to active buffing, and a decrease in overall dmg. DDs could get a buff to resource recovery, maybe an increase to AoE dmg, and a decrease in self healing. This could potentially deincentivize those who incorrectly queue for an inappropriate role, and doesn't really hurt pre-made all-DD groups because the buff/debuffs are still evenly spread and balanced. This would ONLY apply to groups who queue in, and not to a group who walks into the dungeon.

This obviously needs a lot of refining still and is just a rough outline of an idea, so please be constructive. I don't particularly care about the whole fake tank/fake healer thing myself, but based of the volume of complaint threads on the forums, this appears to be a big issue for at least a portion of the population, which means it bears examining.

Marabornwingrion · October 2018

I have a better idea - just stop crying about fake tanks.

p00tx · October 2018

Astrid_V wrote: »

I have a better idea - just stop crying about fake tanks.

I'm not particularly worried about it, but obviously a huge section of the population is. Thanks for the constructive feedback though

Gargath · October 2018

There is already a thread about this here.

NordSwordnBoard · October 2018

Any restrictions/nerfs on the roles that are in low supply (tank & healer) will only make that supply dwindle further if they have much better options, free of restrictions.

VaranisArano · October 2018

Because what my actual tank (who does 4 to 8k DPS) really needs is to to be even less able to contribute to a low DPS group.

p00tx · October 2018

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Any restrictions/nerfs on the roles that are in low supply (tank & healer) will only make that supply dwindle further if they have much better options, free of restrictions.

They wouldn't have much better options, free of restrictions though. It'd be either queue this way, or not at all.

p00tx · October 2018

Gargath wrote: »

There is already a thread about this here.

Right, but this is a solution thread, not a complaint thread.

SpacemanSpiff1 · October 2018

Sometimes tanks and heals need to supplement damage to clear content. Ive carried a lot of randoms with lowbies on tank and heals. it also hurts pre-made groups that don't intend to have every traditional role.

Alternative solution: "no-roles" option.

click an option for 'no roles' (default would be traditional roles) and group finder picks the first 4 people with that option selected with no regard to roles.

People wouldn't feel the need to fake queue.
Folks that wanna run all DDs will likely get that.
Folks that like the traditional T/H/DD/DD will likely get that.
DD queue times should be shorter across the board.

Agenericname · October 2018

It's been brought up a few times. This solution is asking to nerf tanks and healers because of something DDs are doing.

Many real tanks and healers have spoken out against it. Personally I would not use the RDF of this or a similar system were implemented.

p00tx · October 2018

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

Sometimes tanks and heals need to supplement damage to clear content. Ive carried a lot of randoms with lowbies on tank and heals. it also hurts pre-made groups that don't intend to have every traditional role.

Alternative solution: "no-roles" option.

click an option for 'no roles' (default would be traditional roles) and group finder picks the first 4 people with that option selected with no regard to roles.

People wouldn't feel the need to fake queue.
Folks that wanna run all DDs will likely get that.
Folks that like the traditional T/H/DD/DD will likely get that.
DD queue times should be shorter across the board.

That's not a bad idea at all actually. Thank you for the awesome input!

Marcusito · October 2018

p00tx wrote: »

So, hear me out here, as this is just a rough idea. What if during the queueing process, a buff/debuff were added to each subclass to create an incentive to queue properly? Maybe Tanks get a block cost reduction, healing taken increase, but have their dmg neutered. Healers could have an increase to heals, add 5-10 seconds (or whatever) to active buffing, and a decrease in overall dmg. DDs could get a buff to resource recovery, maybe an increase to AoE dmg, and a decrease in self healing. This could potentially deincentivize those who incorrectly queue for an inappropriate role, and doesn't really hurt pre-made all-DD groups because the buff/debuffs are still evenly spread and balanced. This would ONLY apply to groups who queue in, and not to a group who walks into the dungeon.

This obviously needs a lot of refining still and is just a rough outline of an idea, so please be constructive. I don't particularly care about the whole fake tank/fake healer thing myself, but based of the volume of complaint threads on the forums, this appears to be a big issue for at least a portion of the population, which means it bears examining.

It would be easier to just find a guild or some friends to group with. I don’t want development cycles spent on this. Dev resources could be better spent elsewhere.

Swomp23 · October 2018

p00tx wrote: »

So, hear me out here, as this is just a rough idea. What if during the queueing process, a buff/debuff were added to each subclass to create an incentive to queue properly? Maybe Tanks get a block cost reduction, healing taken increase, but have their dmg neutered. Healers could have an increase to heals, add 5-10 seconds (or whatever) to active buffing, and a decrease in overall dmg. DDs could get a buff to resource recovery, maybe an increase to AoE dmg, and a decrease in self healing. This could potentially deincentivize those who incorrectly queue for an inappropriate role, and doesn't really hurt pre-made all-DD groups because the buff/debuffs are still evenly spread and balanced. This would ONLY apply to groups who queue in, and not to a group who walks into the dungeon.

This obviously needs a lot of refining still and is just a rough outline of an idea, so please be constructive.

I get what you're trying to do, but I fear this would cause more harm than good. From what many other real tanks have said, and as being a fresh new tank myself, the main reason many tanks don't pug is because of the high chance of getting a group with abyssal deeps. The dungeon will take forever to complete.
Yesterday, in a vet non-dlc pug, my tank had to backbar dual wield with a couple of dots and a spammable to be able to finish the dungeon. One dps was spamming bow light attacks and the other one (CP 780, kmn) did god-only-knows what, but trash mobs were taking forever to die. Fortunately, the healer was pretty good and we were able to complete the dungeon. But I have to tell you, being forced to contribute to DPS while trying to learn a new role was daunting. I died a couple of times

So, imo, giving tanks a damage reduction will discourage them even more from queuing in pugs. As someone else said earlier today, a good dps can carry a bad tank (in most dungeons, at least) but a good tank or healer can't carry 2 bad dps.

After thinking things through, the only solution I found is having 2 separate queues. Hear me out. The reason some selfish dps queue as tanks is to have shorter queue times. The reason dps queues are so long is because there are WAY more dps than tanks and healers. If, after someone hits CP 200 (to give him time to farm some CP160 sets), we give him access to a separate queue where the groups are consisted of only 4 dps, the number of dps in the true queue will fall down. DPS queues will be much shorter and those selfish dps won't have any more reason to queue as a fake tank.

Edit : Lol, exactly what @SpacemanSpiff1 said above.

p00tx wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

I have a better idea - just stop crying about fake tanks.

I'm not particularly worried about it, but obviously a huge section of the population is. Thanks for the constructive feedback though

Don't listen to those trolls. They are not worth it.

Ramber · October 2018

How about a cool down after you change your role? like you must keep yourself a tank if u swap to a tank for 24 hours, i bet that would put a dent in it because fake tanks are a problem they keep people from completing their daily pledges.

NordSwordnBoard · October 2018

p00tx wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Any restrictions/nerfs on the roles that are in low supply (tank & healer) will only make that supply dwindle further if they have much better options, free of restrictions.

They wouldn't have much better options, free of restrictions though. It'd be either queue this way, or not at all.

Personally, I'd pick not at all. Have fun with the fake tank epidemic.

Zone:"Tank LFG vet Dungeons" and in less than five minutes I'm in an unrestricted group, and can kick out any fakes or turds. We can probably do all three dailies for 6 keys. Or I can choose to gimp myself and the healer in order to reduce the que for a random DD by ?# minutes. Reducing group damage makes thing take longer.

You could be on the right track though: Incentives for support roles may increase the talent/numbers in the GF pool. Maybe giving the tank and healers more gold or something they can walk away with will work. Try to think about what might motivate more support players to use GF for a dungeon instead of choosing strangers out of zone.

LeagueTroll · October 2018

too bad, real tank run into fake dps all the time.
You want real tank? give tank more privilege.

josiahva · October 2018

p00tx wrote: »

So, hear me out here, as this is just a rough idea. What if during the queueing process, a buff/debuff were added to each subclass to create an incentive to queue properly? Maybe Tanks get a block cost reduction, healing taken increase, but have their dmg neutered. Healers could have an increase to heals, add 5-10 seconds (or whatever) to active buffing, and a decrease in overall dmg. DDs could get a buff to resource recovery, maybe an increase to AoE dmg, and a decrease in self healing. This could potentially deincentivize those who incorrectly queue for an inappropriate role, and doesn't really hurt pre-made all-DD groups because the buff/debuffs are still evenly spread and balanced. This would ONLY apply to groups who queue in, and not to a group who walks into the dungeon.

This obviously needs a lot of refining still and is just a rough outline of an idea, so please be constructive. I don't particularly care about the whole fake tank/fake healer thing myself, but based of the volume of complaint threads on the forums, this appears to be a big issue for at least a portion of the population, which means it bears examining.

NO! I have a tank that can actually pull 20k DPS and tank any vet dungeon just fine. I dont need my damage neutered because other people cant perform the role they queue for. Its simple...someone isnt tanking...vote to kick. Solved.

frostz417 · October 2018

It’s annoying when cp15’s cry about fake tanks and healers. Honestly shut up and just do the dungeon and quit crying. Most the time these fake tanks carry you through the dungone so instead of crying and crying thank the person for carrying you through the dungeon since these low cp’s have the dps equivalent to a wet noodle

Agenericname · October 2018

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

Sometimes tanks and heals need to supplement damage to clear content. Ive carried a lot of randoms with lowbies on tank and heals. it also hurts pre-made groups that don't intend to have every traditional role.

Alternative solution: "no-roles" option.

click an option for 'no roles' (default would be traditional roles) and group finder picks the first 4 people with that option selected with no regard to roles.

People wouldn't feel the need to fake queue.
Folks that wanna run all DDs will likely get that.
Folks that like the traditional T/H/DD/DD will likely get that.
DD queue times should be shorter across the board.

This has been brought up a few times as well, twice in this thread. Its definitely the least impactful solution on those who are performing their roles.

Perhaps add a 4th option to the selection screen and have the RDF separate the first 3 options into one queue and the 4th into it's own queue.

I believe this is, or is similar to @Swomp23 suggestion. I'd prefer this over a nerf.

Anotherone773 · October 2018

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

Sometimes tanks and heals need to supplement damage to clear content. Ive carried a lot of randoms with lowbies on tank and heals. it also hurts pre-made groups that don't intend to have every traditional role.

Alternative solution: "no-roles" option.

click an option for 'no roles' (default would be traditional roles) and group finder picks the first 4 people with that option selected with no regard to roles.

People wouldn't feel the need to fake queue.
Folks that wanna run all DDs will likely get that.
Folks that like the traditional T/H/DD/DD will likely get that.
DD queue times should be shorter across the board.

I was going to suggest this. Some more experienced players can do a dungeon with very little to no tank or outside heals. But many do it to level fast and are both low level and crap at surviving without massive support. As someone who only heals and tanks in dungeons, i find it extremely annoying to have to work 3x harder so no skill having low dps nooblets can "fake tank" for fast queues.

Give them the option to queue completely random.

p00tx · October 2018

frostz417 wrote: »

It’s annoying when cp15’s cry about fake tanks and healers. Honestly shut up and just do the dungeon and quit crying. Most the time these fake tanks carry you through the dungeon so instead of crying and crying thank the person for carrying you through the dungeon since these low cp’s have the dps equivalent to a wet noodle

So...no. I'm CP 960 and queued for a random just 4 days ago so I could get the goofy gold skull. I was the jerk who queued as a healer to get in fast, but I was on a dps Magplar and I main a healer, so I just slotted a few heals and moved on. I got thrown into Mazz (seriously rngeezus?) with 3 low CP, one of which was a CP450 stam warden queued as the tank. I not only got to heal, as my "role" required", but I also got to do most of the dmg, AND fulfill the mechanics demands (running spice), because the tank refused to do it and kept dying every time something so much as farted in their direction, in spite of my attempts to keep their sorry butt alive. The other "dps" kept stepping into the spice and refusing to drop it, so I couldn't even grab it half of the time, and not one single one of those bozos were on mic so I couldn't communicate with them beyond trying to fit in a few hastily typed out words in group text. I eventually just gave up on this group and left.

It would have been nice to have someone who could at least moderately fulfill that role so I didn't have to do everything while being swarmed by literally every add plus the boss, or at least they could come close to some approximation. In non-dlc dungeons, I could not give two figs what you queue in as, because once you've got CP under your belt, you should be able to solo a normal anyway and the rest of the team is just window dressing.

So yeah, your preconceived notion that it's only inexperienced lowbies who have to deal with the repercussions of this is incorrect. People have mentioned adding a means of queuing with an exemption option from DLCs, and I think that might be a good option for situations like this.

Swomp23 · October 2018

frostz417 wrote: »

It’s annoying when cp15’s cry about fake tanks and healers. Honestly shut up and just do the dungeon and quit crying. Most the time these fake tanks carry you through the dungone so instead of crying and crying thank the person for carrying you through the dungeon since these low cp’s have the dps equivalent to a wet noodle

WE FOUND THE FAKE TANK!

Listen, we've all been cp15 once in our lives. If our first dungeon experience would have been with a fake tank, and being one shot constantly because some selfish *** isn't taunting, we would have been discouraged about that game pretty quickly.

Stop inventing yourself some noble reason to queue as a fake tank. You do it because you want faster queue times and don't care about your group mates. If you really wanted to carry them, you would queue as a dps and let the tank do it's *** job.

Anotherone773 · October 2018

frostz417 wrote: »

It’s annoying when cp15’s cry about fake tanks and healers. Honestly shut up and just do the dungeon and quit crying. Most the time these fake tanks carry you through the dungone so instead of crying and crying thank the person for carrying you through the dungeon since these low cp’s have the dps equivalent to a wet noodle

As a healer i carry fake tanks through the dungeon. They are typically glass cannons or try to be though most do not do over 15k dps and many have 15k HP or less. So i either let them die repeatedly because they depend on a pocket healer to keep them alive or i spend all of my resources on the fake tank which makes the dungeon several times harder for me. You know since they are not taunting, interupting or doing anything remotely useful.

THOSE are the people i see fake tanking. On the flip side of the coin i have DPS that try to blitz dungeons when a tank is trying to learn to tank not letting them learn because they are impatient. Which only contributes to the lack of tanks available as it discourages people attempt to be a real tank.

You see all problems in dungeons actually stem from selfish, impatient DPS that cut off their nose in spite of their face. Then whine about have 60 minutes queues if they queue properly.

frostz417 · October 2018

@Swomp23

I’ll que as a healer or tank if I’m really trying to rush a normal dungeon. For vet I will always que for my role. I have over 1000 cp so my dps characters can easily burn through a normal dungeon. And if you need a proper tank or healer in a normal non dlc dungeon and cry about it, then maybe you should reevaluate your playstyle bud. Quit crying and as everyone says “get good”

frostz417 · October 2018

p00tx wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

It’s annoying when cp15’s cry about fake tanks and healers. Honestly shut up and just do the dungeon and quit crying. Most the time these fake tanks carry you through the dungeon so instead of crying and crying thank the person for carrying you through the dungeon since these low cp’s have the dps equivalent to a wet noodle

So...no. I'm CP 960 and queued for a random just 4 days ago so I could get the goofy gold skull. I was the jerk who queued as a healer to get in fast, but I was on a dps Magplar and I main a healer, so I just slotted a few heals and moved on. I got thrown into Mazz (seriously rngeezus?) with 3 low CP, one of which was a CP450 stam warden queued as the tank. I not only got the heal, as my "role" required", but I also got the do most of the dmg, AND fulfill the mechanics demands (running spice), because the tank refused to do it and kept dying every time something so much as farted in their direction, in spite of my attempts to keep their sorry butt alive. The other "dps" kept stepping into the spice and refusing to drop it, so I couldn't even grab it half of the time, and not one single one of those bozos were on mic so I couldn't communicate with them beyond trying to fit in a few hastily typed out words in group text. I eventually just gave up on this group and left.

It would have been nice to have someone who could at least moderately fulfill that role so I didn't have to do everything while being swarmed by literally every add plus the boss, or at least they could come close to some approximation. In non-dlc dungeons, I could not give two figs what you queue in as, because once you've got CP under your belt, you should be able to solo a normal anyway and the rest of the team is just window dressing.

So yeah, your preconceived notion that it's only inexperienced lowbies who have to deal with the repercussions of this is incorrect. People have mentioned adding a means of queuing with an exemption option from DLCs, and I think that might be a good option for situations like this.

DLC dungeons are a different issue entirely for ransoms. I honestly will agree with you there’s how it’s annoying getting them and the low levels who love to que for them. That’s why I don’t even bother with them personally.

frostz417 · October 2018

@Anotherone773
Personally if I que as a fake tank/healer it’s only for a quick normal dungeon which I make it specific such as if I’m going to farm a set. And these dungeons require no mechanics so I just dps through them easily since firstly, they have low health, and group dps just melts it. I will only que for a proper dps as I must if I’m going to do a daily vet pledge, which I think is fair. But honestly for those annoying cry babies who get their panties in a bundle for me queing as whatever role because I’m doing a normal dungeon to farm gear. Need to re-evaluate their playstyles since nobody wants to sit in fungal grotto 1 for 2 hours.

idk · October 2018

p00tx wrote: »

So, hear me out here, as this is just a rough idea. What if during the queueing process, a buff/debuff were added to each subclass to create an incentive to queue properly? Maybe Tanks get a block cost reduction, healing taken increase, but have their dmg neutered. Healers could have an increase to heals, add 5-10 seconds (or whatever) to active buffing, and a decrease in overall dmg. DDs could get a buff to resource recovery, maybe an increase to AoE dmg, and a decrease in self healing. This could potentially deincentivize those who incorrectly queue for an inappropriate role, and doesn't really hurt pre-made all-DD groups because the buff/debuffs are still evenly spread and balanced. This would ONLY apply to groups who queue in, and not to a group who walks into the dungeon.

This obviously needs a lot of refining still and is just a rough outline of an idea, so please be constructive. I don't particularly care about the whole fake tank/fake healer thing myself, but based of the volume of complaint threads on the forums, this appears to be a big issue for at least a portion of the population, which means it bears examining.

Similar has been suggested.

1. Since the fake tank only cares about getting the clear the harms this system would bring would be ineffective.

2. Those of us that refuse to queue up on our tanks due to finding really bad DDs in queue often queue on our healers because we can carry the group with our damage on our healers.

In other words, the idea solves nothing yet brings harm.

The ONLY thing Zos can add is a requirement to have a taunt (tank) or a heal ( healer) on ones bar to queue up for a role. It does not guarantee they will use it.

Beyond that those complaining about fake tanks should be attempting to vote kick the fake tank ( or fake healer) from the group. Not trying to do so is being complicit and permitting the behavior. If everyone starts vote kicking them the behavior will start to change, obviously.

killahsin · October 2018

An over watch system would solve this problem in 3 days.

Anotherone773 · October 2018

@frostz417

maybe you could try thinking about someone other than yourself. I know its REALLY hard not to only think about yourself, but you would find life much more rewarding if you didnt. You are part of the problem and none of the solution. You should be banned from dungeon finder for abusing it.

Also even in a terrible group doing 7-8k dps, ive never been in FG that has taken more than 20 minutes. So lets not get dramatic about how everyone in an MMO inconveniences your single player farming.

idk · October 2018

killahsin wrote: »

An over watch system would solve this problem in 3 days.

I do not know how overwatch does things, but am pretty certain they have a completely different design. As such it is very unlikely what they do can be done in ESO. But it is easy to say so.

Deep_01 · October 2018

Don't use group finder. Recruit players into group.