Torugs-Infused-Oblivion-Disease = OP new meta... No fun..

Tholian1 · October 2018

Working as intended?

Waffennacht · October 2018

Tholian1 wrote: »

Working as intended?

Technically yes.

This is how it's supposed to have been working, by ZoS patch notes

_Salty_ · October 2018

The problem is murkmire changes with enchants. Not dual wield. Clueless change that nobody asked for by the Dev. Dual wield was working fine before this DLC.

Burtan · October 2018

ZOS needs to start testing stuff before they just send it to live. Things as broken as this shouldn't even last {1} week in pts.

Edit - {1}

Lylith · October 2018

Duukar wrote: »

Enchants were perfectly balanced before... You had to choose poison or an enchant.. Now poison is useless and enchants are WAY OP

Remove torugs.. or return enchants back to the way they used to be!

enchants will probably go the way of rune cage, undergoing several ineffectual adjustments and eventually becoming useless, for the most part.

again, another aspect of the game that should've been left the hell alone.

Banana · October 2018

Back to how it was last patch zos or unroot it with battle spirit somehow so pvers keep the buff and pvps arent getting the shaft.

DCanadianBacon · October 2018

JumpmanLane wrote: »

I don’t BG much but in Cyro on my MagDk not really noticing much except stam types running up on me way more. They generally die dorking around in melee.

While wondering how the new patch would ruin things, I got a great bit of advice from a pal of mine (well known 1vXer): ramp up the damage, don’t worry about dying and wreck people. You can figure the patch out later.

So many people are worried about their death recaps. I’m more concerned with the kill count. Lol.

Except BG's is based way more on how many kills you can get: kill counts matter there far more than in open world. Also, if you get destroyed by this in Cyrodiil, you can always respawn on a different part of the map and avoid those players, at least for a while. That, and these cheese builds can be mitigated by drawing players to guards, siege, CP, and a myriad of other tactical options while on the battlefield.

In BG's, I'm stuck dealing with it until the fight is over, and when I spend most of my time staring at a respawn timer because no amount of healing can keep up with the damage, and/or the damage completely ignores shields and resistances, it's oppressive, unfun, and completely misses the point of skilled PvP play. The only way to keep up with the damage these guys are dishing out is running the exact same cheese build, and that's called over-centralizing.

This change to enchantments was a mistake, at least on the PvP side of things. It's worse than any proc set meta ever was.

sly007 · October 2018

jcm2606 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Just make enchants proc of the main hand weapon only. Problem solved.

Bleeds are a separate issue, but they probably need a nerf or at least a better counter.

And in doing so ruin a unique aspect of dual wield. No thanks.

Dual enchants was never a problem before this change, because the only way to proc the off hand enchant was light/heavy attacks and Twin Slashes. Think for a bit. What changed this patch, that people are specifically complaining about? Enchants being able to proc from dual wield dots.

Adjust that, don't nerf dual wield in completely the wrong place.

LOL, what you call a "unique aspect" means that DW builds can dish out TWICE as much enchant proc damage over time compared to all other builds. Please don't pretend that these scary death recap screenshots people are posting are coming from destro/resto builds. These cancer builds are all Dual Wield, and you know it.... and that's where the nerf needs to fall!

While 2H gets the benefit of extra weapon damage, and staves and bow get the benefit of being able to play from range. Dual wield is fine. You're on a crusade to nerf it into oblivion.

What we're seeing now is a result of the Murkmire changes. Not dual wield. This sort of nonsense, where enchants ripped through players, did not happen before Murkmire. Show me a single recap before Murkmire where all the damage was due to enchants.

We know the problem originated within Murkmire. It is simple logical deduction.

Did people complain about dual wield enchants before Murkmire? No.

Did they complain after Murkmire? Yes.

Therefore, this cropped up within Murkmire. What changed within Murkmire? The off hand enchant reliably proccing from all weapon skills, and both enchants proccing from dots.

We know what is causing enchants to overperform, and we have a good idea why. Nerf what is actually causing it. Don't nerf the thing itself.

What you're doing now is just as moronic as Zenimax adding the 50% shield cap to prevent shield stacking. You literally have the source of the problem looking at you right in the face, yet you continue to blindly throw darts at the board.

2h does not get extra weapon damage, dual wield does. Dual wield is not fine. Being able to have 2 enchantments for dual wield had always been too strong in my book, the new enchantment system just exacerbated the problem.

People did complain about dual wield enchantments before, but it was not a pvp compliant, rather, a pve one because it created a bigger gap between dual wield and 2h.

This is not a murkmire or a torug pact problem because the other weapons can already use infused but they do not cause the problems the dual wield does. None have come forward saying infused on destro, s&b, 2h, resto, or bow is pvp breaking, only dual wield.

JasonWangTaiwan · October 2018

2H extra damage? LOL are we playing the same game?
Jumping enchant spinner spam totally think they are weak cause they can’t get kill in less 10 seconds!

jcm2606 · October 2018

Weapon damage. The stat. 2H offers a bit more than DW.

The gap between 2H and DW is not due to enchants, but due to how the skill lines are designed at a fundamental level. 2H offers more burst damage, while DW offers more sustained damage. Sustained is king in PVE, burst in PVP. That is why for a long time, 2H was the weapon for stamina in PVP. Because burst is king in PVP.

Also, I invite you to look through all my comments about the enchant meta. I am in full support of nerfing it. It is beyond broken. My problem is with people looking in all the wrong places. Again, enchants were never a problem before these recent changes, so the only thing people should be looking at are these changes.

I'll say it again. Doing what you guys are doing is just as moronic as Zenimax slapping a 50% health cap on shields to address shield stacking. You're nerfing dual wield in the wrong places.

Facefister · October 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

Bg became nothing but dawnbreaker-desease proc-oblivion proc-poison proc-spin2win to finish people. Every recap is same procs.
If I would be a new player and decided to try bg to see how pvp looks like - after 5bgs i would just leave game.

Like it wasn't any different before. If you didn't have those, you did have 3 heavy wearing, jumping DKs with a Warden pocket. People talk like BGs were fine and balanced before Murkmire.

DanteYoda · October 2018

Rofl

jdmoonan · October 2018

Both Poisons and enchantments need to proc 100% of the time on light and heavy attacks only. Weapon abilities should not proc either of these, that alone makes stam so much stronger than mag in that sense.

IZZEFlameLash · October 2018

Torug's is not even a problem but the current enchant proc mechanism that came with Nerfmire is.

sly007 · October 2018

jcm2606 wrote: »

Weapon damage. The stat. 2H offers a bit more than DW.

The gap between 2H and DW is not due to enchants, but due to how the skill lines are designed at a fundamental level. 2H offers more burst damage, while DW offers more sustained damage. Sustained is king in PVE, burst in PVP. That is why for a long time, 2H was the weapon for stamina in PVP. Because burst is king in PVP.

Also, I invite you to look through all my comments about the enchant meta. I am in full support of nerfing it. It is beyond broken. My problem is with people looking in all the wrong places. Again, enchants were never a problem before these recent changes, so the only thing people should be looking at are these changes.

I'll say it again. Doing what you guys are doing is just as moronic as Zenimax slapping a 50% health cap on shields to address shield stacking. You're nerfing dual wield in the wrong places.

2h does not have more weapon damage than dual wield. I dont understand why you keep saying. Dual wield has a passive that actually gives it more weapon damage than 2h.

You are correct that the dps disparities is not due to enchant but skill set, bu you fail to acknowledge that have an extra enchant exacerbates the problem. Burst is great in pvp simple to deny an opportunity to heal there is usually a risk/reward factor. High damage, less sustain, less defense, etc. These conditions can be met with both bow and dual wield. It is not exclusive to 2h.

You are right again that enchant were never a problem before murkmire, but I disagree that enchants on dual wield were balances before murkmire. Because of that imbalance, the buff to enchants caused a balance problem for dual wield. Dual wield enchants needs to be brought in line with the other weapons. The other weapons do not need a buff to their enchants.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · October 2018

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Just make enchants proc of the main hand weapon only. Problem solved.

Bleeds are a separate issue, but they probably need a nerf or at least a better counter.

That’s a lazy solution IMO. You are rendering a game mechanic completely meaningless to certain playstyle with this approach. DW enchants have been around forever. The problem started when weapon skills could proc enchants. That’s the first place to start when looking for a solution.

Now if your proposal was say, off hand enchants do 50% of the damage or have double the cooldown time, I am listening. Not saying the numbers are right, but that could be figured out with testing.

Eliminating the need to enchant one of your weapons just doesn’t sit well with me.

If you are looking for a quick bandaid approach that could be pushed out quickly, to me it would be removing enchant procs on anything but the initial hit of a weapon skill. In other words rending slashes gives you 2 enchant procs, not 10.

Cinbri · October 2018

Facefister wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Bg became nothing but dawnbreaker-desease proc-oblivion proc-poison proc-spin2win to finish people. Every recap is same procs.
If I would be a new player and decided to try bg to see how pvp looks like - after 5bgs i would just leave game.

Like it wasn't any different before. If you didn't have those, you did have 3 heavy wearing, jumping DKs with a Warden pocket. People talk like BGs were fine and balanced before Murkmire.

Before people couldn't deal 8k damage every 1.4sec by doing nothing.

Rex-Umbra · October 2018

GreenHere wrote: »

Don't worry, I'm sure ZOS will listen to the community feedback and quickly make sensible and appropriate changes that everyone will be happy with.

AAaaaaannnnyy minute now...

....yeeahh...

More likey in 4 months

Gargath · October 2018

Duukar wrote: »

In the BGs this is RUINING the game...!

Thanks for letting me know, I never tried BG before but now I have a reason. Hope for some easy kills before the Mondays nerf

.

Elrond87 · October 2018

game is getting worse

Moonsorrow · October 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

Bg became nothing but dawnbreaker-desease proc-oblivion proc-poison proc-spin2win to finish people. Every recap is same procs.
If I would be a new player and decided to try bg to see how pvp looks like - after 5bgs i would just leave game.

Yep, this is the same conclusion i posted couple days ago. If was now a new player testing eso pvp, i would go and find another game after saw how uninteresting it is, no skills.. just proccing enchants then execute. Most often not even need executes, enchants do so much damage they melt people alone with the dots unless they are fully on fresh resources and/or got a form of purge to delay the inevitable for few seconds.

It just is not fun right now. Gonna take a break from battlegrounds. Sad about it, bgs been decent fun, especially on new characters that actually GET to battles, instead of old high mmr characters that gotta spend 1 hour to get into one bg, if lucky. *sigh*

killahsin · October 2018

i understand the complaints about this change as i also do not like this change but i also understand the need for this change and why this change was dumped onto live servers from a design perspective so that the numbers could be run after the min maxers got a hold of it so that zenimax could balance it properly. Which is why i am a firm beliver in the fact everyone should run this meta en masse to give the numbers guys the data they need to balance it properly as a fast as possible.

Moonsorrow · October 2018

killahsin wrote: »

i understand the complaints about this change as i also do not like this change but i also understand the need for this change and why this change was dumped onto live servers from a design perspective so that the numbers could be run after the min maxers got a hold of it so that zenimax could balance it properly. Which is why i am a firm beliver in the fact everyone should run this meta en masse to give the numbers guys the data they need to balance it properly as a fast as possible.

Umm.. what? There was a pts for testing this, and people gave their results and said its gonna be bad for pvp if going live like this.

And why would everyone need to run this zombie IQ level meta for 3 months to get results of some numbers when there are basic simulation programs doing stuff like that, pure numbers, without bias in feedback?

Everyone running this will mean after 3 months = way less people at pvp, since its not that fun and exciting meta to be in. People tend to play less when something is not fun anymore, we are not testing bots.. we are here if its fun and rewards skillful play (as much as can lately).

killahsin · October 2018

oh good lord the pts for every mmo is such a small platform its not even feasible to use data derived from it. Suggesting there is zero mitigation of this is ridiculous as people are already designing mitigation builds around dealing with this issue. Which gives ZoS data they could never derive from test. That is one test case alone. But carry on with your umm wwhat's.

'basic simulation programs' haha hahaha

Moonsorrow · October 2018

killahsin wrote: »

oh good lord the pts for every mmo is such a small platform its not even feasible to use data derived from it. Suggesting there is zero mitigation of this is ridiculous as people are already designing mitigation builds around dealing with this issue. Which gives ZoS data they could never derive from test. That is one test case alone. But carry on with your umm wwhat's.

'basic simulation programs' haha hahaha

Have fun running it, your answer clearly shows you enjoying it. Well, who knows maybe even pvp gets more players, simple worm games had hundreds of millions of players in phones couple decades ago. Masses like simple things. So if thats what you want everyone to do, you are entitled to your opinion too. Have a good day though.

killahsin · October 2018

I have stated in multiple threads i absolutely do not like this change in its current iteration at all and that it is absolutely hilarious that it is in the game. But I have also stated i understand the design choice and why it is in the game. I however would have handled this differently but that is me.

Moonsorrow · October 2018

killahsin wrote: »

I have stated in multiple threads i absolutely do not like this change in its current iteration at all and that it is absolutely hilarious that it is in the game. But I have also stated i understand the design choice and why it is in the game. I however would have handled this differently but that is me.

Handling it differently? How? You are encouraging everyone to run it because it gives zos numbers to then balance (nerf, thats how they do it) things on. If as many pvp player follows your advice it goes like this pretty much:

1. Makes pvp uninteresting enchant proccing competition for months.
2. ZOS nerfs still things really hard, even things that could leave alone and are/were not a problem
3. People happily doing pve will blame pvp people who abused the meta to the maximum for nerfing enchants and other random things, skills and mechanics around enchants, bleeds, who knows what else.
4. No one is happy. Well, maybe those who liked the meta and are ready to jump into the next broken thing.

I cannot honestly say what possible reason is there to put this stuff on live, unless the whole point was to make it blatantly "op" so can nerf it hard, not just to a level appropriate for true balance(tm), but to even more and that was the whole plan. There is no power creep at no-cp pvp anyways so its not an excuse.

Like if the shield nerf was planned to be the current version without the cast time nerf, just the % based shield cap, but the 1s cast time was put there first, so people could rage about it and feel it was a win when they took that out and put that current one instead so people accepted it as the lesser evil.

Heh, current situation at pvp feels like they are gonna soon introduce some huge changes, and putting stuff in that is now at live makes it horrible, so the big change will be accepted as like a saviour.

Gargath · October 2018

Tholian1 wrote: »

Working as intended?

100% yes! I ask ZOS, please don't change it. All pvp scrubs need it so much.
Otherwise we have a minimum chance to single handedly kill a grand overlord

.

Here my pug team sucked, but I was the scrub first timer and still 3-rd winner

.

Zatox · October 2018

Finally, now I can kill somebody in pvp. Dont nerf it pls

Emma_Overload · October 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Just make enchants proc of the main hand weapon only. Problem solved.

Bleeds are a separate issue, but they probably need a nerf or at least a better counter.

That’s a lazy solution IMO. You are rendering a game mechanic completely meaningless to certain playstyle with this approach. DW enchants have been around forever. The problem started when weapon skills could proc enchants. That’s the first place to start when looking for a solution.

Now if your proposal was say, off hand enchants do 50% of the damage or have double the cooldown time, I am listening. Not saying the numbers are right, but that could be figured out with testing.

Eliminating the need to enchant one of your weapons just doesn’t sit well with me.

If you are looking for a quick bandaid approach that could be pushed out quickly, to me it would be removing enchant procs on anything but the initial hit of a weapon skill. In other words rending slashes gives you 2 enchant procs, not 10.

I proposed both half damage enchants and double length cooldowns in other threads. Dual Wielders have a million reasons they don't like those, either. For example, they are convinced their sustain will be crippled if the Absorb Stamina enchant gets cut in half, LOL.