Sicardus wrote: »

I never expected ZOS to include the temple of Ixtaxh-thtithil-meht, but they actually did. Nor did I expect the statue referenced in the Infernal City to be present, and yet it is. Unlike Summerset, ZOS honored every conceivable piece of past lore that was put in place for this region. Perhaps this is the result of DLCs vs. Expansions, as we all can expect that an expansion will be more monotone theoretically as a result of it being one big single zone rather than being broken up into multiple chunks. No Orrery, no varlines, and no sunbirds, which I will lend to Altmer fans as reasonably disappointing. However, the ludicrous complaints on architecture reflect this misguided idea that Altmer were actually supposed to be better than everyone else. They have always been explicitly referenced as acting better rather than being better, but of course those lore videos from Shoddycast with some shoddy information all those years ago didn't help. I digress, but as a fan of a race with only "semi-permanent" architecture in modern times (Except that Deadwater tribe, their hist tree and dedication to their stone work past is an amazing exception), I am happy to see that lore accuracy has been given proper attention in this zone. I am thoroughly excited for this long overdue region of Argonia, and its new Southern setting serves to make it even more exciting. However, I hope expansions beyond Morrowind can honor lore with a degree of accuracy that exceeds Summerset.

Talks about lore accuracy, in a game franchise that prides itself by not having realiable lore. I do not understand why people hold onto few sentences as lore but get angry when it does not turn out like they want or what they imagine. Nothing is concrete. You can only believe what you see not what you read.

Sicardus wrote: »

I never expected ZOS to include the temple of Ixtaxh-thtithil-meht, but they actually did. Nor did I expect the statue referenced in the Infernal City to be present, and yet it is. Unlike Summerset, ZOS honored every conceivable piece of past lore that was put in place for this region. Perhaps this is the result of DLCs vs. Expansions, as we all can expect that an expansion will be more monotone theoretically as a result of it being one big single zone rather than being broken up into multiple chunks. No Orrery, no varlines, and no sunbirds, which I will lend to Altmer fans as reasonably disappointing. However, the ludicrous complaints on architecture reflect this misguided idea that Altmer were actually supposed to be better than everyone else. They have always been explicitly referenced as acting better rather than being better, but of course those lore videos from Shoddycast with some shoddy information all those years ago didn't help. I digress, but as a fan of a race with only "semi-permanent" architecture in modern times (Except that Deadwater tribe, their hist tree and dedication to their stone work past is an amazing exception), I am happy to see that lore accuracy has been given proper attention in this zone. I am thoroughly excited for this long overdue region of Argonia, and its new Southern setting serves to make it even more exciting. However, I hope expansions beyond Morrowind can honor lore with a degree of accuracy that exceeds Summerset.

It’s because people already think argonians are “cool” and lizards are allowed to be unique. Meanwhile, Zenimax showed little interest in evolving the altmer beyond generic, typical high elves who are arrogant for no valid reason. It’s almost as if they wanted the altmer to remain hated by the community.

Let it never be said that Zenimax is incapable of portraying Tamriel in a unique, compelling way, or that they’re afraid of alienating players by making a world that’s too strange or creative. They clearly have talent. They simply choose not to use it when it doesn’t suit them.

And for the record, we didn’t want them to be objectively better at everything. We just wanted them to have something that set them apart in any way. They’re supposed
to be the most magical and intelligent race in Tamriel. We merely wanted some reflection of that, some example of intelligence and magical advancement that went beyond the other races.

There’s a difference between wanting a race to be better at everything and wanting a race to excel in the one thing we were told they excelled in.

As it stands, they barely feel more magical than the dunmer. And they definitely feel
more “human” than the other elven races. It’s just uninspired and dull.

Sicardus wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Sicardus wrote: »

I never expected ZOS to include the temple of Ixtaxh-thtithil-meht, but they actually did. Nor did I expect the statue referenced in the Infernal City to be present, and yet it is. Unlike Summerset, ZOS honored every conceivable piece of past lore that was put in place for this region. Perhaps this is the result of DLCs vs. Expansions, as we all can expect that an expansion will be more monotone theoretically as a result of it being one big single zone rather than being broken up into multiple chunks. No Orrery, no varlines, and no sunbirds, which I will lend to Altmer fans as reasonably disappointing. However, the ludicrous complaints on architecture reflect this misguided idea that Altmer were actually supposed to be better than everyone else. They have always been explicitly referenced as acting better rather than being better, but of course those lore videos from Shoddycast with some shoddy information all those years ago didn't help. I digress, but as a fan of a race with only "semi-permanent" architecture in modern times (Except that Deadwater tribe, their hist tree and dedication to their stone work past is an amazing exception), I am happy to see that lore accuracy has been given proper attention in this zone. I am thoroughly excited for this long overdue region of Argonia, and its new Southern setting serves to make it even more exciting. However, I hope expansions beyond Morrowind can honor lore with a degree of accuracy that exceeds Summerset.

It’s because people already think argonians are “cool” and lizards are allowed to be unique. Meanwhile, Zenimax showed little interest in evolving the altmer beyond generic, typical high elves who are arrogant for no valid reason. It’s almost as if they wanted the altmer to remain hated by the community.

Let it never be said that Zenimax is incapable of portraying Tamriel in a unique, compelling way, or that they’re afraid of alienating players by making a world that’s too strange or creative. They clearly have talent. They simply choose not to use it when it doesn’t suit them.

And for the record, we didn’t want them to be objectively better at everything. We just wanted them to have something that set them apart in any way. Their supposed
to be the most magical and intelligent race in Tamriel. We merely wanted some reflection of that, some example of intelligence and magical advancement that went beyond the other races.

There’s a difference between wanting a race to be better at everything and wanting a race to excel in the one thing we were told they excelled in.

As it stands, they barely feel more magical than the dunmer. And they definitely feel
more “human” than the other elven races. It’s just uninspired and dull.

Their architecture definitely fit them well. Those windows actually do have an insect wing pattern when observed up close. I also thought that they were less generic as a race in culture than the humans, who are some variation of a warrior culture with different architectural styles apart from the magical Bretons. What made Altmer stand out from everyone else is how refined they are in comparison to everyone else. Murder seems to be a last resort while diplomacy is of utmost importance to them. I don't think every city in Summerset should have had the same architecture, given that should be the case in pretty much any zone. Vvardenfell was developed in the past, forcing ZOS to actually make the areas less monotone. What ZOS did best for the Altmer architecture though, was making everything so vertically inclined and tall.

Also both Dunmer and Altmer are praised by most fans for their rich and civilized cultures, while Argonians are dismissed by tons of commenters on these forums everyday. A lot of people do not find a swamp full of lizards to be as cool as you claim, but I can understand that their uniqueness definitely outmatches he Altmer. What ZOS failed with the Altmer the most was their magic being woven into every facet of their civilization. Every city should've shown a magical attribute at least, whether it be shifting platforms and the like. The Varlines and Sunbirds should've been saved from the first development of Summerset. Hopefully a BGS ES game corrects these mistakes. One thing I wish ZOS could figure out with Argonians is that ancient Mesoamerican ruins were much bigger than Xanmeers, and that Shadow of the Tomb Raider happens to be a great model of what an Argonian expansion could involve in terms of architecture.

Their architecture is literally just Somerset, England, with its cathedrals and greco-roman ruins. Mix that in with a washed-out version of Disneyland and there you go.

It doesn’t match anything we’ve ever seen from Altmer in previous games. Altmer weapons and armor use organic shapes, curves, and abstract symbols. Their buildings look like they’re from a completely different species.

It also looks completely out of place from the other elven races. The elves in the elder scrolls were specifically designed to be alien and strange to humans. They’re whole “point” is to break the “humans with pointy ears” trope, and their cultural incompatability with humans is core to the series themes. The bosmer are shapeshifting cannibals, the dwemer make magitech robots, the dunmer live in mushrooms and bug/ shaped houses.

What do the Altmer have? What sets them apart as “inhuman”? They’re supposed to be the closest to the Aldmer. Why are they just humans with pointy ears?

It’s just uninspired dude. it’s the absolute bare minimum, bog standard fantasy environment. If you like it, that’s fine. I’m just bored with yet another medieval stone city in a european forest. As if Tamriel didn’t have enough of those already.

As for Argonians, we just have different experiences then, and I’ll accept that. Ever since Skyrim came out, all I’ve ever heard is how much Altmer suck and how cool dunmer and argonians are. Argonians get to be the perpetual underdog that always ends up kicking ass (the oblivion crisis, the red year, fighting the akaviri etc). So I’m in no way surprised that Zenimax did a great job with them.

Bruccius wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Sicardus wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Sicardus wrote: »

I never expected ZOS to include the temple of Ixtaxh-thtithil-meht, but they actually did. Nor did I expect the statue referenced in the Infernal City to be present, and yet it is. Unlike Summerset, ZOS honored every conceivable piece of past lore that was put in place for this region. Perhaps this is the result of DLCs vs. Expansions, as we all can expect that an expansion will be more monotone theoretically as a result of it being one big single zone rather than being broken up into multiple chunks. No Orrery, no varlines, and no sunbirds, which I will lend to Altmer fans as reasonably disappointing. However, the ludicrous complaints on architecture reflect this misguided idea that Altmer were actually supposed to be better than everyone else. They have always been explicitly referenced as acting better rather than being better, but of course those lore videos from Shoddycast with some shoddy information all those years ago didn't help. I digress, but as a fan of a race with only "semi-permanent" architecture in modern times (Except that Deadwater tribe, their hist tree and dedication to their stone work past is an amazing exception), I am happy to see that lore accuracy has been given proper attention in this zone. I am thoroughly excited for this long overdue region of Argonia, and its new Southern setting serves to make it even more exciting. However, I hope expansions beyond Morrowind can honor lore with a degree of accuracy that exceeds Summerset.

It’s because people already think argonians are “cool” and lizards are allowed to be unique. Meanwhile, Zenimax showed little interest in evolving the altmer beyond generic, typical high elves who are arrogant for no valid reason. It’s almost as if they wanted the altmer to remain hated by the community.

Let it never be said that Zenimax is incapable of portraying Tamriel in a unique, compelling way, or that they’re afraid of alienating players by making a world that’s too strange or creative. They clearly have talent. They simply choose not to use it when it doesn’t suit them.

And for the record, we didn’t want them to be objectively better at everything. We just wanted them to have something that set them apart in any way. Their supposed
to be the most magical and intelligent race in Tamriel. We merely wanted some reflection of that, some example of intelligence and magical advancement that went beyond the other races.

There’s a difference between wanting a race to be better at everything and wanting a race to excel in the one thing we were told they excelled in.

As it stands, they barely feel more magical than the dunmer. And they definitely feel
more “human” than the other elven races. It’s just uninspired and dull.

Their architecture definitely fit them well. Those windows actually do have an insect wing pattern when observed up close. I also thought that they were less generic as a race in culture than the humans, who are some variation of a warrior culture with different architectural styles apart from the magical Bretons. What made Altmer stand out from everyone else is how refined they are in comparison to everyone else. Murder seems to be a last resort while diplomacy is of utmost importance to them. I don't think every city in Summerset should have had the same architecture, given that should be the case in pretty much any zone. Vvardenfell was developed in the past, forcing ZOS to actually make the areas less monotone. What ZOS did best for the Altmer architecture though, was making everything so vertically inclined and tall.

Also both Dunmer and Altmer are praised by most fans for their rich and civilized cultures, while Argonians are dismissed by tons of commenters on these forums everyday. A lot of people do not find a swamp full of lizards to be as cool as you claim, but I can understand that their uniqueness definitely outmatches he Altmer. What ZOS failed with the Altmer the most was their magic being woven into every facet of their civilization. Every city should've shown a magical attribute at least, whether it be shifting platforms and the like. The Varlines and Sunbirds should've been saved from the first development of Summerset. Hopefully a BGS ES game corrects these mistakes. One thing I wish ZOS could figure out with Argonians is that ancient Mesoamerican ruins were much bigger than Xanmeers, and that Shadow of the Tomb Raider happens to be a great model of what an Argonian expansion could involve in terms of architecture.

Their architecture is literally just Somerset, England, with its cathedrals and greco-roman ruins. Mix that in with a washed-out version of Disneyland and there you go.

It doesn’t match anything we’ve ever seen from Altmer in previous games. Altmer weapons and armor use organic shapes, curves, and abstract symbols. Their buildings look like they’re from a completely different species.

It also looks completely out of place from the other elven races. The elves in the elder scrolls were specifically designed to be alien and strange to humans. They’re whole “point” is to break the “humans with pointy ears” trope, and their cultural incompatability with humans is core to the series themes. The bosmer are shapeshifting cannibals, the dwemer make magitech robots, the dunmer live in mushrooms and bug/ shaped houses.

What do the Altmer have? What sets them apart as “inhuman”? They’re supposed to be the closest to the Aldmer. Why are they just humans with pointy ears?

It’s just uninspired dude. it’s the absolute bare minimum, bog standard fantasy environment. If you like it, that’s fine. I’m just bored with yet another medieval stone city in a european forest. As if Tamriel didn’t have enough of those already.

As for Argonians, we just have different experiences then, and I’ll accept that. Ever since Skyrim came out, all I’ve ever heard is how much Altmer suck and how cool dunmer and argonians are. Argonians get to be the perpetual underdog that always ends up kicking ass (the oblivion crisis, the red year, fighting the akaviri etc). So I’m in no way surprised that Zenimax did a great job with them.

Incorrect statement. In the Pocket Guide to the Empire you can clearly see stone Altmeri structures, and in TES III, where it is stated Imperial culture has taken a lot of its inspiration from the Altmer, you can see many similar patterns between the two cultures.

Also, the Argonians always end up kicking ass? Far from it, a minor history lesson on their peoples would show as much. Their few successes are attributed to the Hist.

Correction then. Everything we’ve seen aside from a brief sketch of a ruin which was never seen in any actual game.

I believe everything else I said in the last post about the Altmer is valid.

By the way, why are we believing the pocket guide now? I thought it was all just exaggerations and transcription errors? I guess the PGE is only valid when it makes the world less unique.

Look man, I accept that the lore has gone through many stylistic reboots over the years. I’m not asking for everything to be exactly like “the good old days” of the PGE. I just hate seeing them dismiss the more unique aspects of the Altmer’s lore and only accepting what’s familiar and bland.

I was intentionally exaggerating with the argonians to express the thoughts I’ve seen anecdotally from others. My point was that it’s not true, but that in my experience it’s a sentiment I often see. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. I was trying to explain why I claimed, in the original post, that argonians seemed to be so popular. As I said, we must just have different experiences with others in the ES community.

As for that line from TES III about the empire’s arts and sciences being based on high elf principles:

ESO chose to take that line 100% literally, while dismissing others as exaggerations. Plenty of architecture is derived from the basic engineering and mathematics of other influential cultures. That doesn’t HAVE to mean that they look similar on a surface level, or use the same materials, or have the same level of advancement or resources.

At the end of the day, Zenimax got to choose what was literal and what was an exaggeration. They got to choose which interpretation of the lore to follow.

In my opinion, they chose one of the most bland, derivative, generic and uninspired interpretations they possibly could. Like I said, it almost feels like they just took Somerset, England (cathedrals with greco-roman ruins) and added a washed-out Disneyland motif. It’s not exact, but the similarity is noticeable.

ArchMikem wrote: »

Sicardus wrote: »

Everstorm wrote: »

Loosely related but I from what I understand the Argonians lay eggs, but the eggs in the video are much too large come out of an Argonian. Do those eggs grow further once laid, or how is that supposed to work?

I'm sure we will find out through questing on the PTS.

Agreeing to above, the eggs seen in the Hatcheries are far to large to have been laid at that size, so I've been assuming they grow in size once laid, possibly due to their exposure to Hist Sap, or maybe it's just part of the gestation period. Then again, it's amazing what a Human Female can pass through her seemingly tiny orifice... We've never seen a "pregnant" Argonian before, perhaps Female Argonians are sort of like Humans and lay a single large Egg?

I doubt we will see any Argonians "with egg".

It's very good to hear this about Murkmire. It gives me hope for the representation of Elsweyr and the Khajiit furstocks when it has it's time.

Bruccius wrote: »

Kajuratus wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Talks about lore accuracy, in a game franchise that prides itself by not having realiable lore. I do not understand why people hold onto few sentences as lore but get angry when it does not turn out like they want or what they imagine. Nothing is concrete. You can only believe what you see not what you read.

Sigh, here we go again. Always got to jump to the unreliable narrator defense. The unreliable narrator only works when we don't know the truth, and never find out the truth. How did Nerevar die at Red Mountain? We'll never really know, different accounts tell different interpretations with different agendas. Claiming that there are cities that look like they are made from glass or insect wings is not something that you're meant to interpret as "actually a lot more boring than that." Wheres the world building there? Wheres the interesting story behind that city being exaggerated? And no, I don't buy any excuse that says "oh but it makes the Altmer more realistic!" How much more interesting would the backstory behind the Altmer have been if the cities were actually described like what the Reman emissaries described it as? What a fascinating concept, that the Altmer were as pompous as they were because they could back it up? Beautiful gleaming towers that looked as though they were made of glass, architecture reminiscent of insect wings, all the colours of the rainbow shining on the stone floors. There are many different interpretations of how that could have looked, and having stone buildings with stainless glass windows is the most uninspired, dull look they could have gone for.

That look is literally supported by images in the Pocket Guide, though.

They went for a lore friendly way, it's not their problem if you had too high expectations.

Exactly this. Summerset looks fantastic.

Sicardus wrote: »

I never expected ZOS to include the temple of Ixtaxh-thtithil-meht, but they actually did. Nor did I expect the statue referenced in the Infernal City to be present, and yet it is. Unlike Summerset, ZOS honored every conceivable piece of past lore that was put in place for this region. Perhaps this is the result of DLCs vs. Expansions, as we all can expect that an expansion will be more monotone theoretically as a result of it being one big single zone rather than being broken up into multiple chunks. No Orrery, no varlines, and no sunbirds, which I will lend to Altmer fans as reasonably disappointing. However, the ludicrous complaints on architecture reflect this misguided idea that Altmer were actually supposed to be better than everyone else. They have always been explicitly referenced as acting better rather than being better, but of course those lore videos from Shoddycast with some shoddy information all those years ago didn't help. I digress, but as a fan of a race with only "semi-permanent" architecture in modern times (Except that Deadwater tribe, their hist tree and dedication to their stone work past is an amazing exception), I am happy to see that lore accuracy has been given proper attention in this zone. I am thoroughly excited for this long overdue region of Argonia, and its new Southern setting serves to make it even more exciting. However, I hope expansions beyond Morrowind can honor lore with a degree of accuracy that exceeds Summerset.

I think this has more to do with established things that exist in the world vs things that were told to us through third person. Alinor exists because its established that it exists. What wasnt established was exactly how it looked. Because while we had been told by a third party about the way they saw it. It didnt mean that that was exactly how it looked.

We know of the statue because of the book. So of course if it has to be there somewhere in Black Marsh.

Its also a good time to remind people that ZOS is not just doing whatever they like to the lore. Sure Lawrence has gone on record saying his job is finding ways to say yes to the team. But that doesnt mean that they are just making things up how ever they want. They know they have to toe a fine line between lore and their own stories. And its not like they arent constantly communicating with Bethesda in an attempt to avoid stepping on anyones toes.

I also find it funny how everyone harps on ZOS for Summerset but no one notices the subtle similarities between the Aylied architecture and the Altmer architecture. That if both societies came from the Aldmer....They should both share similar styles. So its okay that the Aylieds had "such boring designs" but not the Altmer?

Yup. Murkmire is amazing in its depiction of Argonian culture and previous lore. I think that's also due to the fact that the story is not about some grand world-ending event, or a plot that spans over multiple DLCs. It can focus on this small pocket of Tamriel and flesh it out properly. Summerset had a good main story, but Altmeri culture suffered greatly because of this IMO. I hope they stick to the small-scale formula for a while.

Only thing I was missing was a