ESO Community : Best I've seen. Devs should appreciate the community way more

Turelus · October 2018

So some more musing.

Firstly I use to make threads and posts all the time about how ZOS should communicate more, ZOS doesn't seem to understand or listen etc.
Eventually however I came to realise that isn't who ZOS is. I was making all these expectations based on my experiences with other companies and expecting ZOS to be those companies and more.
Rather than beating my head against the wall and making myself angry and unhappy ZOS wouldn't reform their entire corporate structure to meet my desires, I accepted they are what they are.

I've also had the chance to chat with ZOS staff at events and the community team through the CA program.
One of the main things I've learned from those interactions is how passionate the ZOS development team are about the game and the community. They put in a lot of work we all take for granted (especially the community team) and receive a lot of abuse for any slight mistake.

Gina and Jess have spoken with the CA members numerous times asking for feedback on ideas, or ways they can improve the communication with the community, however there are limits to what they can do and how much free time they have to do it.
The community team to my knowledge is just Gina, Jess & Kai and unless ZOS takes on more staff in that area they'll always be pressed for free time to do things like post in every bug thread to acknowledge it.

Also when asking for more communication be more clear about what it is you want. People often say ZOS doesn't communicate but when pressed the issue is actually "ZOS didn't do what I wanted with the game" which isn't really the same thing. Communication doesn't mean they have to accept everything you tell them.

Also when saying they don't communicate stop and take a breath and reread what you're saying expecting that communication. So often I've seen people state how ZOS doesn't listen, how they're ignored, how support wasn't helpful but their posts are full of snarky jabs, censored swears, passive aggressive demands etc.
Remember that these are real people doing real jobs, and it's not part of their job to deal with your trashy attitude. No one wants to talk to someone who's demanding they lose their job or calling them incompetent all the time.

Creating the kind of dialogue people want to engage with is a good step towards building the bridges of trust required for a true discussion on issues. However once again ZOS isn't going to do everything you want no matter how nicely you phrase it, sometimes you have to step back and accept no matter how passionate you are about ESO it won't always be developed in the way you desire.

usmcjdking · October 2018

Turelus wrote: »

So some more musing.

Firstly I use to make threads and posts all the time about how ZOS should communicate more, ZOS doesn't seem to understand or listen etc.
Eventually however I came to realise that isn't who ZOS is. I was making all these expectations based on my experiences with other companies and expecting ZOS to be those companies and more.
Rather than beating my head against the wall and making myself angry and unhappy ZOS wouldn't reform their entire corporate structure to meet my desires, I accepted they are what they are.

I've also had the chance to chat with ZOS staff at events and the community team through the CA program.
One of the main things I've learned from those interactions is how passionate the ZOS development team are about the game and the community. They put in a lot of work we all take for granted (especially the community team) and receive a lot of abuse for any slight mistake.

Gina and Jess have spoken with the CA members numerous times asking for feedback on ideas, or ways they can improve the communication with the community, however there are limits to what they can do and how much free time they have to do it.
The community team to my knowledge is just Gina, Jess & Kai and unless ZOS takes on more staff in that area they'll always be pressed for free time to do things like post in every bug thread to acknowledge it.

Also when asking for more communication be more clear about what it is you want. People often say ZOS doesn't communicate but when pressed the issue is actually "ZOS didn't do what I wanted with the game" which isn't really the same thing. Communication doesn't mean they have to accept everything you tell them.

Also when saying they don't communicate stop and take a breath and reread what you say expecting communication. So often I've seen people state how ZOS doesn't listen, how they're ignored, how support wasn't helpful but their posts are full of snarky jabs, censored swears, passive aggressive demands etc.
Remember that these are real people doing real jobs, and it's not part of their job to deal with you trashy attitude. No one wants to talk to someone who's demanding they lose their job or calling them incompetent all the time.

Creating the kind of dialogue people want to engage with is a good step towards building the bridges of trust required for a true discussion on issues. However once again ZOS isn't going to do everything you want no matter how nicely you phrase it, sometimes you have to step back and accept now matter how passionate you are about ESO it won't always be developed in the way you desire.

Not one person passionate about their work would find this game acceptable in it's current form. Not a single person. I am fairly passionate about the game, and if this were my project, everyone would be working overtime and no one would be playing ESO ATM until some of the crucial bugs (spawning/despawning, invisible NPCs and threats, failing skills) were fixed.

Entire DLC cycles would be cancelled in favor of just a routine spring cleaning of the game to set up a precedent for the upcoming year. In addition to weekly maintenance, we'd have biweekly maintenance where everyone grabs some canned air and physically cleans not only the equipment, but our physical work station.

And the lack of communication actually suggests there is a level of disgust and shame amongst the dev staff and I understand this madness isn't exactly their fault. This is all on Firor's shoulders. [removed bashing comment]

Jeremy · October 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

We might be the best community you've seen, but that does not mean we've been particularly polite to the Devs.

Especially not recently.

So personally, I think the community needs to clean up our act, treat the Devs with consistent respect, try not to fly off the handle when they do communicate with us or "fail" to deliver something we interpreted as a "promise." Or, in the simplest terms, when they change the game in a way we disagree with.

There's a reason the Devs mostly interact with the community through chosen player representatives, and if we want that to change, perhaps we the community should consider how we can be welcoming and respectful to the Devs.

It's can get mean, no doubt about it.

But you should see what the WoW community for example puts their developers through. If you want an example: go look up the word kalgan on Urban dictionary.com, because I can't repeat it here - especially on this forum. It makes what goes on here look like gentleman's disagreement.

Actually.... never mind... I just looked up Wrobel on there and it isn't much better. lol

Miswar · October 2018

You can look these backlashes regarding a nerfs and bugs a negative thing.

At least here on these forums seems to be the case since warnings and bans been given out left and right.

However remember that these people are or have been somewhat passionate about the product. People tend to get somewhat angry (in lack of better word) when they have been ignored time after time. That tends to happen in RL too.

...just saying that these vocal people are likely holding and have kept many of their friends in the game. When we start losing these people... well it ain't healthy for the game.

Jeremy · October 2018

Miswar wrote: »

You can look these backlashes regarding a nerfs and bugs a negative thing.

At least here on these forums seems to be the case since warnings and bans been given out left and right.

However remember that these people are or have been somewhat passionate about the product. People tend to get somewhat angry (in lack of better word) when they have been ignored time after time. That tends to happen in RL too.

...just saying that these vocal people are likely holding and have kept many of their friends in the game. When we start losing these people... well it ain't healthy for the game.

I tend to agree with you, generally speaking.

Banning should only be reserved for those who use hacks/cheats or exploit the game in ways that ruin the gaming experience for others. And it would probably be in their interests to develop a thicker skin when facing criticism. Much of it is crudely worded and aimed far more personally that it ought to be. But as you say, often times that anger derives from a passion for their product.

Better to try and hang on to those customers by taking a little abuse instead of kicking them to the curb for being unruly in a moment of anger. Least that's how I like to think I would handle it if I were a developer. Though it's easy to say that when you aren't the one being trashed constantly on the forum.

p00tx · October 2018

Ertosi wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

The problem is, well thought out and constructive arguments do not work. Unfortunately the only thing that works, evidenced by the fact that the cast time was reverted, is unleashing maximum salt on the forums. This is why I don't blame the community for being so toxic.

I see the real situation as a complete 180 on this perspective, as well as why I disagree with the original premise of this thread. I like that the original poster seems to be positive, but the reality is this is overly toxic community that just soils over anything and everything the Devs do. No wonder they don't communicate when that's always what greets them each time they do.

jcm2606 wrote: »

Zenimax has shown time and time again that they simply do not care what the community thinks or wants, unless it is conveyed with maximum salt.

How on earth can any reasonable person have this perspective when the game continually gets updated with regular new DLC? You can never please everyone and those that try are doomed to please no one. So good on them for having their vision and sticking to it. Those that don't agree with that vision are welcome to constructively voice it, but those that deeply disagree with it should simply find a different game that more aligns with what they want, rather than QQ and rage in juvenile attempts to change it to their wants. Those who think pouring salt all over everything is the answer aren't part of the problem, they're the entire problem. If they, or more preferably just that attitude, were to leave we would see the community finally turn into the vision the OP sees.

We aren't asking for new DLCs or new content. It's nice, but it's all just fluff and window dressing. We have been asking for them to fix the things that already exist, and they instead dedicate their workforce to creating new ways to put money in the pockets of the top few (probably old guys) at the top. I do agree that becoming enraged and making silly threats isn't the way to do things, but I can also see why certain people are prone to this sort of behavior every time we get new content which does nothing but gloss over the issues we've all been constructively asking the company to work on since day one.

This is a problem that seems to only exist in the tech industry. Every other type of product is held to rigorous and strict guidelines by regulatory bodies, except tech products. In the tech industry, if the product is in any way dysfunctional, don't worry, the next iteration will be better, and you can purchase that for $XXX.00 when they release it. It'll probably come with a bunch of stupid crap that no one cares about, like customizable emojis. In other industries, the product gets pulled from the shelves and gets an overhaul before being re-released to the public. That is, if the faulty product even makes it past the QA team and consumer testing.

I've worked in sales for fortune 500 companies in the US, and I've been part of product recalls, and I've experienced the sense of urgency that comes with an oversight like this. I've witnessed the careful transparency between executives and the consumers regarding the faulty product and read the public apologies released regarding the products. I've distributed the free gifts to the affected consumers who were owed a real apology for the oversight. I've remained quietly professional when the client decided the apology was not sufficient and chose to yell at me for an hour rather than accept the "I'm sorry" gift. It's part of the job, and you take it because it's what you signed up for when you agreed to be well-compensated for your work. None of that exists here, because they can chalk up any complaints to subjective bias or user error rather than legitimate product dysfunction.

The problem here (I suspect) is that the people up top have a pre-concieved notion regarding the people who use this particular product. They assume we're either actual children (who will buy anything shiny and don't care about the rest), or dysfunctional weirdos in our parent's basement who have no social skills. Up until recently, this has been the expected (incorrectly stereotyped) norm for gamers, and the people at the top don't feel either group is worth listening to. What they don't realize is that the player base has wildly diversified over the last 10+ years, and now includes people from all walks of life and backgrounds, primarily professional adults who grew up with some of the first gaming consoles. Many of us know as much as the developers about how a game should function and/or how a business should be run. Many of us have useful feedback that could potentially move things in the right direction. We are the QA department, but instead of being paid for our work, we pay them for the privilege of working for them.

None of that matters though when we refuse to speak and interact like the rational, professional adults that we are. We instead descend into the niche built for us by the people who don't know us, and we act like enraged children, just as they assumed we would. OP is correct that we have a responsibility to be a voice worth hearing, rather than one that instantly makes them want to ignore us. Both producer and consumer have a lot to work on in this industry.

Turelus · October 2018

Miswar wrote: »

You can look these backlashes regarding a nerfs and bugs a negative thing.

At least here on these forums seems to be the case since warnings and bans been given out left and right.

However remember that these people are or have been somewhat passionate about the product. People tend to get somewhat angry (in lack of better word) when they have been ignored time after time. That tends to happen in RL too.

...just saying that these vocal people are likely holding and have kept many of their friends in the game. When we start losing these people... well it ain't healthy for the game.

Forums warnings and bans are always entirely based on how things are said, not the content.

There are plenty of heavily critical threads open for discussion, but when people call out staff to be removed, sprout the same old "devs don't play" or "ZOS is incompetent" without being in any way constructive don't expect to mods to ignore that.

Otherwise I fully agree. Most often people are angry because they're passionate supporting players of the game who feel betrayed or unheard.

Marcusito · October 2018

Dark times?

I think ESO is way underrated in the MMO space. The voice acting alone causes me to pause. Hours of upon hours of quest lines with voice actors saying ever word. The facial expressions of the NPCs. The attention to detail of the zones and storytelling. This is from a guy that doesn’t really enjoy D&D rollplaying. I’m amazed at the quality, it is like you are the hero in your own TV series. It is a great Elder Scrolls MMO interpretation. I’ve been around gaming since Bard’s Tale, Wasteland, Starflight and Zork and ESO though not perfect still amazes me.

The subscription is worth more than Amazon Prime or Netflix. Sure the nerfs, bugs and lag are annoying but in taking in the entire body of work ESO is a solid experience.

RedRook · October 2018

The_Camper wrote: »

Turelus

I do agree that the class rep program is one of the best things ZOS came up with when it comes to communication. However, the execution of the system is awful. This is just how i see it and only due to the past results. I'll give you some recent examples:

Class reps get feedback from the community and it goes like this.

Community & Reps: Healers not being needed in most content is due to CP creep and and high DPS so people can simply ignore the mechanics.

ZOS: let us add 1 sec cast time to shields. this will make healers relevant.

C&R: No one asked for this. This is an awful change. Change shields to be a buff so people can't stack them while single shields being worthwhile to use.

ZOS: lol. now your shields are capped at 40% of your health. this should make healers relevant. hey, we removed the upfront heal from one of the shields btw.

C&R: hmmm.

Example 2:

C&R: Swift trait stacking is a problem. Also please buff shuffle to be in line with forward momentum.

ZOS: we have nerfed swift.

C&R: great. thank you for listening to us.

ZOS: we have also nerfed all the sources of major expedition.

C&R: whaaaat?

ZOS: also nerfed forward momentum so it's down to shuffle's level

C&R: *muffled screams*

Right?

I remember thinking, when we were staring down the barrel of the 1-second cast time on shields: Is it so bad really that a shielding sorc can facetank a boss in PVE? No. Does it matter this much (or at all) if people run non-traditional groups in PVE group content? No.

Do we really want the class reps to present any more "pain points" if it's either going to be nothing or massive overreaction? They apparently can't give the follow-up suggestions because the devs know best, so I'm not so sure this pain-point-only representation is a step forward. Especially if we're stopping here.

EQBallzz · October 2018

I have been away for almost 3 years but sounds like some things never change. Doesn't this go all the way back to the lies about going B2P? I was a huge Zenimax supporter from beta through release and really bought into their tough stand on being a sub only game. They had numerous hard-line comments about how the game had to be sub based to provide the quality content they intended to deliver in a timely fashion.

Some of us gladly paid that sub in addition to the collector's edition game for a long time because we believed in what they were saying..right up until they suddenly and without warning switched to B2P and added a cash shop and did a bunch of other stuff they said they would NEVER do. Maybe it was inevitable or maybe it was just greed but in any event they didn't treat their long time paying SUB customers with much respect or consideration.

Then there was the whole CP system transition debacle where they told everyone that their XP earned in game would be retroactively applied to the CP system when it released so we all just kept burning through all of our quests based on what they told us but then come to find out..nope. Sorry you wasted all that XP and we lied to you about it but can I interest you in buying an RNG loot crate instead?

So I don't think the lack of communication or respect for players is really anything new but sucks to hear it's still a thing. It's one of the main things that drove me away from the game so long ago. I just fired up the game again but trying to approach it with a reset (and lower) expectations this time.

Lysette · October 2018

The_Camper wrote: »

Yes. Communication and transparency has always been the issue. forums are where people and devs exchange ideas. and it's hilarious when you go to the dev tracker and 9 out of 10 comments:

"We have removed some non constructive posts. Please refrain from going off topic"

You don't need staff to do this. get a bot to post this. Get some staff to actually talk to people, get ideas from community, learn what community wants and what they do not want. I work in financial markets, where people trade online and we provide platform and tools do do so. I can't imagine the *** we'll get if we ignore a simple bug/issue and not acknowledge it. It baffles me how an organization can't have this when catering to a large customer base.

Try customer support - i found it really helpful and reactive in a timely manner.

Mettaricana · October 2018

Would love if they dev crew actually fixed anything. Why the hell do we even have a weekly maintenance not like they fix or patch anything broken skills stay broken for 3 months even then its sketchy.. i can handle nerfs but make the nerfed skills actually work once your done...

coletas · October 2018

Mettaricana wrote: »

Would love if they dev crew actually fixed anything. Why the hell do we even have a weekly maintenance not like they fix or patch anything broken skills stay broken for 3 months even then its sketchy.. i can handle nerfs but make the nerfed skills actually work once your done...

I would sign for a 3 months fix date lol XD

Malem_Benign · October 2018

Turelus wrote: »

So some more musing.

Firstly I use to make threads and posts all the time about how ZOS should communicate more, ZOS doesn't seem to understand or listen etc.
Eventually however I came to realise that isn't who ZOS is. I was making all these expectations based on my experiences with other companies and expecting ZOS to be those companies and more.
Rather than beating my head against the wall and making myself angry and unhappy ZOS wouldn't reform their entire corporate structure to meet my desires, I accepted they are what they are.

I've also had the chance to chat with ZOS staff at events and the community team through the CA program.
One of the main things I've learned from those interactions is how passionate the ZOS development team are about the game and the community. They put in a lot of work we all take for granted (especially the community team) and receive a lot of abuse for any slight mistake.

Gina and Jess have spoken with the CA members numerous times asking for feedback on ideas, or ways they can improve the communication with the community, however there are limits to what they can do and how much free time they have to do it.
The community team to my knowledge is just Gina, Jess & Kai and unless ZOS takes on more staff in that area they'll always be pressed for free time to do things like post in every bug thread to acknowledge it.

Also when asking for more communication be more clear about what it is you want. People often say ZOS doesn't communicate but when pressed the issue is actually "ZOS didn't do what I wanted with the game" which isn't really the same thing. Communication doesn't mean they have to accept everything you tell them.

Also when saying they don't communicate stop and take a breath and reread what you're saying expecting that communication. So often I've seen people state how ZOS doesn't listen, how they're ignored, how support wasn't helpful but their posts are full of snarky jabs, censored swears, passive aggressive demands etc.
Remember that these are real people doing real jobs, and it's not part of their job to deal with your trashy attitude. No one wants to talk to someone who's demanding they lose their job or calling them incompetent all the time.

Creating the kind of dialogue people want to engage with is a good step towards building the bridges of trust required for a true discussion on issues. However once again ZOS isn't going to do everything you want no matter how nicely you phrase it, sometimes you have to step back and accept no matter how passionate you are about ESO it won't always be developed in the way you desire.

@Turelus despite that I don't agree with you in most cases, I do see that you're trying to do your part of the job (don't know is it payed or not). You're trying to operate with what you have. You know that ZOS are "landlords" here as you said, and you try to get the best from these landlords. I agree that this could be more effective in some cases than throwing acid vomit everywhere, that makes these landlords more resentful and deaf. But to be honest. It's not a feodal state, and we're not serfs. It's a commercial product, that oriented in getting profit from their customers. And customers "are always right" even if they don't. So the right way to make things is when Company seeks and establishes communication with its customers, not in reverse, when customers are trying to reach out Company attention. That's my imho.

Revokus · October 2018

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

We might be the best community you've seen, but that does not mean we've been particularly polite to the Devs.

Especially not recently.

So personally, I think the community needs to clean up our act, treat the Devs with consistent respect, try not to fly off the handle when they do communicate with us or "fail" to deliver something we interpreted as a "promise." Or, in the simplest terms, when they change the game in a way we disagree with.

There's a reason the Devs mostly interact with the community through chosen player representatives, and if we want that to change, perhaps we the community should consider how we can be welcoming and respectful to the Devs.

It's can get mean, no doubt about it.

But you should see what the WoW community for example puts their developers through. If you want an example: go look up the word kalgan on Urban dictionary.com, because I can't repeat it here - especially on this forum. It makes what goes on here look like gentleman's disagreement.

Actually.... never mind... I just looked up Wrobel on there and it isn't much better. lol

Yeah but Wow devs listen to the community way more than ZOS about class balance and class fantasy and stuff. It's crazy how many times blizz has listened to the best players to make combat changes for the better when a class was underperforming. You'll never see this here.. they are just to stubborn with their vision of the game or should I say no vision at all since they are never communicating their vision for the classes.

oxygen_thief · October 2018

The_Camper wrote: »

Do not ignore the players when they voice their concern.

they dont need your voices they need your money. pay or go away. if you are still here then eat what you got and keep silence.

Wreuntzylla · October 2018

The_Camper wrote: »

I've been playing MMOS since 2002 ranging from RPGS, RTS to FPS and have been playing ESO for last three years. Hands down this is the best and most forgiving community I have seen both in game and forums. Each day that I spend playing here makes me feel that Zenimax as a company does not appreciate their player base as a whole one bit.

I can't recall any other major gaming community supporting and keep forgiving as much as ESO player base has in the past. specially during recent major screw ups by devs. Sure, there have been countless forum flaming and players, but come to think of it, are they wrong to do so? Dev and player communication keeps getting distant day by day. Class rep program is there, but looking at the disparity of changes that have been suggested by player base as a whole and the changes that actually went through, one might question, Is it even working?

There are numerous threads each day regarding game breaking bugs that simply stops certain classes or playstyles from playing the game (most recent example: jabs, swing issue). Not a single comment from either the Dev team or the PR department acknowledging these bugs. forget an ETA on the bug fix, let alone players can't even get a single post saying "yes we are looking into this. sorry about the inconvenience", instead they get told to watch their tone in posts with ban threats. This is not new either. The gap of player and dev communication has been increasing since morrowind days, where Devs started ignoring their most valuable assets as a company, people who play their product. I cannot think of any other top MMO team doing this and not getting a huge backlash from their player base.

and yet, majority ESO player base keeps their support and keeps backing up the devs, even in dark times. So please, take a moment to appreciate the community. Do not ignore the players when they voice their concern. Have some basic decency as a company to give a simple reply to your customers when they tell that something is wrong. PLEASE DO NOT BECOME ELECTRONIC ARTS.

Thank you.

To the fellow forum goers and players : Keep being awesome

I have played a variety of MMOs as well. Generally speaking, the greater the monetization, the fewer communications you ee from devs.

It's tough to provide information where every other answer would either be 'it makes us more money' or a falsehood. Given that choice, silence works well.

agegarton · October 2018

Nicely worded OP.

In essence, ZoS has every right to make their game their way. But like any other consumer market, customers have the right to walk away. I love this game and have much money and much time sunken into it - but I have always been critical of ZoS quite inconsistent engagement with its customers. When they do engage, they’re great - just please do it more!

Ask EA, or Nokia, or Kodak what happens when you stop listening to those who keep you afloat......

Acrolas · October 2018

It's really hard to fake empathy for outlier outrage subcommunities and really loud angry individuals.
So imagine the complications arising from genuine empathy. I don't expect ZOS to generate either. Businesses in the business of mass market products are going to step on toes no matter which direction they go. It's a problem of quantity, not necessarily quality.

Those outliers don't want empathy, though. They want to feel like they're in control. And that's not going to happen. Mean words on the Internet and passive-aggressive threats to leave are nothing more than emotional pandering and manipulation. You're allowed to be frustrated at having to adapt to new gameplay rules, but handle yourselves like adults.

Also, in my experience, impromptu business communication is bad for business. So the extemporaneous but structured styles of ESO Live or conventions, on top of regular articles, really is the most reliable path. Though I do feel that some of the comments made as short developer notes would be far better explained in full articles exploring more sides of the changes and why a certain direction was taken over other possible ones. Like I've touched on before, developer leadership is still important, and can still happen even without a lot of face time. It should feel like a deliberate presence. An invisible hand.

agegarton wrote: »

Ask EA, or Nokia, or Kodak what happens when you stop listening to those who keep you afloat......

Nokia and Kodak were both fatal marketing mistakes when there was little room in a growing market to make those mistakes.
When we get closer to 2020 or 2021, marketing decisions made by ZOS and backed by Bethesda will be tested in increasingly unfavorable economic conditions. But if you've been paying attention, ZOS is already crafting that next phase of marketing.

Because ESO is not about crafting or combat or collectibles or chapters.
It's about telling your individual character's story in the ever-shifting universe of The Elder Scrolls.
You don't need a forum for that. It's happening in the game, and people are sharing those experiences.
I don't understand why people always look for one big failure wave as a tipping point when it's just more enjoyable to track all the small successes and understand that those are the currents this game rides upon.

Inarre · October 2018

ScardyFox wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

The Devs do a pretty decent job communicating and fixing where they can in reasonable time.

Yeah... I don't see that at all. I have never seen that since being here at beta. The devs have always come across (on the forums) as being more concerned with policing peoples expression(s) of frustration rather than address what people are actually frustrated about. Never mind taking months at a time bothering to fix things that are clearly broken by their own words.

They don't listen and never have come across as a group that does. From some class reps flat out saying they don't to me personally watching the lack of communication over the years. Hell, it was only a month or two ago the new guy on their team posted he'd be around more and would like to interact with the community. That was greeted with a lot of fanfare and juxtapose with the community expression a collective "finally".

Such reactions don't manifest because people are answering and addressing problems readily, but rather because for a moment people thought that vicious circle might actually break.

Too bad it didn't and probably never will.

You must have been playing Mario party 2 since beta then

I've seen plenty of action from Devs such as:

1. Mass banning for ultimate exploits in cyrodiil that the community asked for and thanked zos for
2. Staves being 2 pieces armor bonus
3. Jewelry crafting
4. A method of countering shields in pvp in the form of gear sets
5. When that didn't work shields were nerfed repeatedly
6. Implementation of character reordering on login
7. Nerfing of breath of life and templars in general
8. Changes to night blade sustain in the last patch to bring it in line with other classes
9. Changes to templar ultimate values to bring it in closer line with other dps classes
10. Repentance being shared between all members of party

Those are just a few examples of some things zos has fixed at the request of the community that I pulled out of my butt. I could go on but since it sounds like you've already made up your mind despite being active on forums, and 50% of the eso community has the composition of a salt lick I think my time is probably better spent making some dinner before raid.

Vapirko · October 2018

jcm2606 wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

I see the real situation as a complete 180 on this perspective, as well as why I disagree with the original premise of this thread. I like that the original poster seems to be positive, but the reality is this is overly toxic community that just soils over anything and everything the Devs do. No wonder they don't communicate when that's always what greets them each time they do.

Want to know why the community is so hostile towards Zenimax? Let me show you...

ZOS told us they are aware players are moving too fast and are too difficult to target with melee and short ranged abilities. They want to slow us down. Swift Jewelry was something that was specifically mentioned. The Major Expedition buff being too strong was hinted at. The reps agreed that players are too fast and that Swift Jewelry is a primary offender, especially when it was additive to other speed boosts and Forward Momentum. The reps did not agree that the Major Expedition was too strong.

So, here we see Zenimax discussing movement speed with the class reps, and possible ways to address it. Zenimax hinted at Major Expedition being too strong, though the reps disagreed, stating that Major Expedition was fine, and didn't need addressing.

Then we look at the patch notes for Murkmire...

Fiery Grip: This ability now grants Major Expedition for a maximum of 4 seconds instead of 6 seconds.

Boundless Storm: This ability now grants Major Expedition for a maximum of 4 seconds instead of 7.5.

Falcon's Swiftness: This ability now grants Major Expedition for a maximum of 4 seconds instead of 10 seconds.

Quick Cloak: This ability now grants Major Expedition for a maximum of 4 seconds instead of 5 seconds.

Hasty Retreat: This ability now grants Major Expedition for a maximum of 4 seconds instead of 5 seconds.

Reduced the duration of the Major Expedition buff granted from some item sets to 8 seconds from 20 seconds.

Reduced the duration of Major Expedition granted from potions, to be more in line with other powerful Major buffs such as Major Vitality. For a potion at maximum rank, this reduces the duration of Major Expedition from 40.6 second to 12.5 seconds, before any modifications from things such as enchantments or passives.

Even though the reps outright told Zenimax that Major Expedition was not a problem, Zenimax went ahead and gutted Major Expedition, rendering 1vX basically impossible, and completely sucking the fun out of PVP, and to an extent PVE. Zenimax ignores what the reps said, and went ahead with their own nerfs, on week 3 of the PTS, where adequate testing cannot be done in time before the patch hits live.

This is why the community is so toxic towards Zenimax. 2-3 years of *** like this. Blatant ineptitude on the part of the current balancing team, with complete disregard of the opinions and suggestions given by people who actually play the damn game at the level these changes truly impact.

Want a comparison of what it was like on launch? Skim these super old patch notes. Specifically...

Alongside these new features, you’ll find many fixes to quests, combat, art, and audio. We’re also continuing to work on the overall class balance, but are doing so carefully so as not to impact your build too much.

Zenimax actually gave a *** about maintaining balance, in a fun way, without completely uprooting the meta every 3 months. If this were to happen today, the entire damn community would honestly think Zenimax would have been bought out, because Zenimax plainly doesn't give two *** about that nowadays.

This is why the community is so toxic towards Zenimax. Because they have done better. They can do better. They have the tools to be better. But they'd rather make blanket nerfs with their SledgeNerfenator 3000 every 3 months, completely disrupting the balance of the game, forcing more and more players to stop spending money or simply moving on.

Ertosi wrote: »

How on earth can any reasonable person have this perspective when the game continually gets updated with regular new DLC? You can never please everyone and those that try are doomed to please no one. So good on them for having their vision and sticking to it. Those that don't agree with that vision are welcome to constructively voice it, but those that deeply disagree with it should simply find a different game that more aligns with what they want, rather than QQ and rage in juvenile attempts to change it to their wants. Those who think pouring salt all over everything is the answer aren't part of the problem, they're the entire problem. If they, or more preferably just that attitude, were to leave we would see the community finally turn into the vision the OP sees.

That isn't listening to the community. That is churning out content. Content that is, by the way, 4 years old.

You know Murkmire? The same Murkmire we received on Monday? That has been in development since the beginning of the game. So has Thieve's Guild. So has Dark Brotherhood. So has Imperial City. Clockwork City, Morrowind, Summerset, all of these were already planned ahead 4 years ago. None of the stuff you're getting now is completely new. It is already planned and being worked on, ready for release a year or two down the road.

Listening to the community would be fixing bugs that have been in the game for months. Months. Like sprint bug. Sprint bug has been in for a good half a year, and only just now Zenimax has even acknowledged it is a thing, even though the forums have screamed about it until we're blue in the face. To get Zenimax to even acknowledge a bug, it takes a metric ton of salt. If that doesn't say something about how bad Zenimax is at communication, I don't know what will.

Getting past that, as I said to Varanis, people have tried to have peaceful and constructive discussions. It doesn't work. The feedback threads in the Combat & Character Mechanics sections are full of constructive comments dissecting various "pain points" of the topics at hand, let alone the hundreds of other constructive threads. It doesn't work. Zenimax continues ignoring them.

Even the class reps can't even get through to Zenimax. And there's only 12 of them, all of them handling the program professionally, and interacting with the community, gathering feedback. The only way to get through to Zenimax is salt. No, this isn't anecdotal, this is literally what happened with the shield changes. Go look at the Sorc thread on the PTS. Full of salt, memes and QQ, and guess what. Week 2 of the PTS, cast time removed. And yet DK, Templar, Warden, all provide constructive feedback with literal piles of data. Nothing. All they get are further nerfs, minor buffs, and band-aid fixes. While Sorc has the #1 pain point on the PTS reverted week 2.

Again, it sucks. I honestly do wish it wasn't like this. But Zenimax did this to themselves. 2-3 years of this ***. 2-3 years of silence. 2-3 years of being blatantly ignored. 2-3 years of blanket nerfs uprooting the entire meta overnight. 2-3 years of disappointing PVP.

Salt is the only thing Zenimax knows how to interpret, apparently, and this forum is perfectly fluent in it. Almost a match made in heaven, if you ask me.

This is the sad truth. ZOS is 100% responsible for the way they get spoken to and treated.

Zardayne · October 2018

Mayrael wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

@jcm2606

I understand the community frustration. I also understand that the community's propensity to unload that frustration at the Devs in rather unhelpful ways doesn't exactly lead the Devs to the natural conclusion of "We should communicate more with these people who yell at us whether we communicate with them or not."

I look at some of the ways the community has reacted to the PTS and since Murkmire went Live, and I think "I'm not sure you could pay me to mediate between this community and ZOS." I'm not sure how the community reps do it for free.

Maybe this community is better than other game communities. That's not the same as saying this community treats the Devs well.

I dislike the cliche of "Be the change you want to see" but I think it applies here.

The problem is, well thought out and constructive arguments do not work. Unfortunately the only thing that works, evidenced by the fact that the cast time was reverted, is unleashing maximum salt on the forums. This is why I don't blame the community for being so toxic.

Zenimax has shown time and time again that they simply do not care what the community thinks or wants, unless it is conveyed with maximum salt. Facts, numbers, data, constructive reasoning. Doesn't matter. All that matters is salt. Salt, salt, salt. With a side of salt.

It sucks, it really does, but this is the position Zenimax has put themselves in, by ignoring the community for so long. I wish it were different, I really do, but Zenimax shows virtually no signs of change.

This. We as a community, do whatever it takes to be listened, if this means a lot of salt, that's their choice.

Another thing is thier communication with us. It's extremely frustrating to see most of the responses are just "cleaning" messages. If they have time to read through thousands of threads to find the ones that break the forum rules, why they have no time to write: "Thanks for feedback, your issue has been passed to team for further investigation"?

The only time I've ever saw "Thanks for feedback, your issue has been passed to team for further investigation"? was when I cancelled my plus and emailed Zenimax with a monstrous wall of crap they needed to fix/etc. I guess with them losing some cash and my lengthy email I actually got some kind of response.

There's a huge Warden feedback thread with some very heartfelt, well thought out solutions before this latest content drop and I don't think I ever saw Zenimax devs jump in and ask for further clarification on someone ideas, or a "we'll look into that, good idea". They just posted that so we could feel like they were listening but when it came down to it, they went totally against what most were asking for, especially us Magden.

So, when I read some posts that maybe we need to be nicer to them, and feel sorry for them , and just maybe they'll come out of their shell and talk to more of us I call BS. We're the paying customers and they should be damn glad a lot of us are still hanging in there, still trying to offer valid solutions, all the while they've continued to leave us un-lubricated with some of these forced changes.