ESO Community : Best I've seen. Devs should appreciate the community way more

The_Camper · October 2018

I've been playing MMOS since 2002 ranging from RPGS, RTS to FPS and have been playing ESO for last three years. Hands down this is the best and most forgiving community I have seen both in game and forums. Each day that I spend playing here makes me feel that Zenimax as a company does not appreciate their player base as a whole one bit.

I can't recall any other major gaming community supporting and keep forgiving as much as ESO player base has in the past. specially during recent major screw ups by devs. Sure, there have been countless forum flaming and players, but come to think of it, are they wrong to do so? Dev and player communication keeps getting distant day by day. Class rep program is there, but looking at the disparity of changes that have been suggested by player base as a whole and the changes that actually went through, one might question, Is it even working?

There are numerous threads each day regarding game breaking bugs that simply stops certain classes or playstyles from playing the game (most recent example: jabs, swing issue). Not a single comment from either the Dev team or the PR department acknowledging these bugs. forget an ETA on the bug fix, let alone players can't even get a single post saying "yes we are looking into this. sorry about the inconvenience", instead they get told to watch their tone in posts with ban threats. This is not new either. The gap of player and dev communication has been increasing since morrowind days, where Devs started ignoring their most valuable assets as a company, people who play their product. I cannot think of any other top MMO team doing this and not getting a huge backlash from their player base.

and yet, majority ESO player base keeps their support and keeps backing up the devs, even in dark times. So please, take a moment to appreciate the community. Do not ignore the players when they voice their concern. Have some basic decency as a company to give a simple reply to your customers when they tell that something is wrong. PLEASE DO NOT BECOME ELECTRONIC ARTS.

Thank you.

To the fellow forum goers and players : Keep being awesome

MartiniDaniels · October 2018

Most fun is that i and several other guys are trying to get summerset collector edition in steam and can’t because of normal one and no single answer from devs, they don’t communicate even on topics where they can get extra cash

The_Camper · October 2018

Yes. Communication and transparency has always been the issue. forums are where people and devs exchange ideas. and it's hilarious when you go to the dev tracker and 9 out of 10 comments:

"We have removed some non constructive posts. Please refrain from going off topic"

You don't need staff to do this. get a bot to post this. Get some staff to actually talk to people, get ideas from community, learn what community wants and what they do not want. I work in financial markets, where people trade online and we provide platform and tools do do so. I can't imagine the *** we'll get if we ignore a simple bug/issue and not acknowledge it. It baffles me how an organization can't have this when catering to a large customer base.

Pabston · October 2018

Well said

jcm2606 · October 2018

This needs to be pinned. Zenimax can ignore the community all they want. But they need to expect and accept the logical outcome of doing so: a dead product.

VaranisArano · October 2018

We might be the best community you've seen, but that does not mean we've been particularly polite to the Devs.

Especially not recently.

So personally, I think the community needs to clean up our act, treat the Devs with consistent respect, try not to fly off the handle when they do communicate with us or "fail" to deliver something we interpreted as a "promise." Or, in the simplest terms, when they change the game in a way we disagree with.

There's a reason the Devs mostly interact with the community through chosen player representatives, and if we want that to change, perhaps we the community should consider how we can be welcoming and respectful to the Devs.

Turelus · October 2018

The communication is much better than it used to be, there is still a lot more ZOS could be doing but we shouldn't forget how far we've actually come in the last couple of years.

The class rep system is a massive step forwards as it means we now have dedicated players who meet with ZOS' combat team on a regular basis to discuss issues.
We shouldn't be gauging ZOS' communication on whether or not they do everything the community want though, as I've said before at the end of the day this is ZOS' product and they're going to go in the direction they want with it.

Regarding feedback on bugs being reported. All the bugs reported within the game or on the bug forums are tracked internally by them (Gina has commented on this in the past) so they do know the issues.
As Gina and Jess are the main community staff at ZOS they're the only ones who can really post in threads to acknowledge when a bug has been noted, but they both have other jobs within the company they need to do which keeps them from being on the forums noting bugs every day.
I know over the past months Gina has strived to put some time aside where she can and blitz through threads noting them so we know they've been seen.

I personally would still love to see ZOS aim for developer blogs on a weekly basis with an update and some previews (concept, graphs etc.) from each of the team leads spread over a month. So each month we get one update on PvE, Combat, PvP etc.

Creationofgod · October 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Regarding feedback on bugs being reported. All the bugs reported within the game or on the bug forums are tracked internally by them (Gina has commented on this in the past) so they do know the issues.
As Gina and Jess are the main community staff at ZOS they're the only ones who can really post in threads to acknowledge when a bug has been noted, but they both have other jobs within the company they need to do which keeps them from being on the forums noting bugs every day.
I know over the past months Gina has strived to put some time aside where she can and blitz through threads noting them so we know they've been seen.

This is the main problem here ! there should be someone being put 1fte on costumer relations. someone who engages and report back to the dev team with feedback!!

Creationofgod · October 2018

oh well the whole quote thing did not work out so well for me !

Davor · October 2018

One thing you are forgetting. I am sure the devs do appreciate it, BUT it's the Zenimax lawyers who tell the Zenimax bosses that they should keep quiet. The Devs are NOT ALLOWED to say anything. Sadly most companies are like this. Just look at the Guild Wars 2 fiasco that happened a few months ago. Forget the company name. That is why Devs can't speak.

As for the people who do speak, they are not devs. They are a mouth piece but don't work on the game that I know of. Please correct me if I am wrong. So like I said the Devs do appreciate us. It's the lawyers and shareholders who don't give a crap. They have their money. All they want is more. They will never appreciate us.

Sadly Zenimax is worse than Electronic Arts. They are more like Games Workshop of old. They will sue you if you look at them funny. I never herd of EA suing companies just because of a name. The Zenimax Online developers are good. I am sure they are doing the best with what little they are given.

Sadly the over priced lawyers and accountants and bosses ruin all the hard work. As I said, they don't give a crap.

Don't blame the devs. Place the blame where it belongs.

jcm2606 · October 2018

@VaranisArano Can you really blame the community after 2-3 years of (admittedly extremely) varying degrees of neglect? The OP is right. In any other MMO, this sort of communication, or lack thereof, would have the company crucified.

@Turelus Just because it is now 10% of the way to where it needs to be doesn't mean the other 90% has to be ignored, nor should that 10% be praised. Zenimax could do a lot better. They need to do a lot better.

The class reps system was/is a step forward in theory, but in practice it has fallen flat on its face. Go look at the class rep meeting notes, then look at the Murkmire patch notes. No, seriously, please do it. Compare them, see how the class reps' feedback was taken, or, rather, completely ignored.

The class reps system has a huge amount of potential, and could be the tool that Zenimax can use to turn their public image and this game around. Unfortunately, they have chosen to utilise the class reps as glorified complaint registrars, instead of actually bouncing ideas off of them, and reaching out to the greater community.

I said this in the DK reps Discord a week or two ago. If Zenimax could just bounce their initial ideas off of the devs, 2 weeks of this PTS could have been completely skipped. 2 weeks. A simple "we want to add cast time to shields, thoughts?" would have sufficed. The class reps could have shot it down, offered another solution, and this PTS could have covered so much more. But, since Zenimax is using the class reps as glorified complaint registrars, we're in the mess that is Murkmire.

That's what stings the most. Both the class reps and Zenimax are in such a monumentally good position to change this game for the better, but Zenimax does not want to take that step. It must be hell on the reps, seeing Zenimax completely neglect their feedback and going the exact opposite direction they suggested.

The_Camper · October 2018

@Turelus

I do agree that the class rep program is one of the best things ZOS came up with when it comes to communication. However, the execution of the system is awful. This is just how i see it and only due to the past results. I'll give you some recent examples:

Class reps get feedback from the community and it goes like this.

Community & Reps: Healers not being needed in most content is due to CP creep and and high DPS so people can simply ignore the mechanics.

ZOS: let us add 1 sec cast time to shields. this will make healers relevant.

C&R: No one asked for this. This is an awful change. Change shields to be a buff so people can't stack them while single shields being worthwhile to use.

ZOS: lol. now your shields are capped at 40% of your health. this should make healers relevant. hey, we removed the upfront heal from one of the shields btw.

C&R: hmmm.

Example 2:

C&R: Swift trait stacking is a problem. Also please buff shuffle to be in line with forward momentum.

ZOS: we have nerfed swift.

C&R: great. thank you for listening to us.

ZOS: we have also nerfed all the sources of major expedition.

C&R: whaaaat?

ZOS: also nerfed forward momentum so it's down to shuffle's level

C&R: *muffled screams*

VaranisArano · October 2018

@jcm2606

I understand the community frustration. I also understand that the community's propensity to unload that frustration at the Devs in rather unhelpful ways doesn't exactly lead the Devs to the natural conclusion of "We should communicate more with these people who yell at us whether we communicate with them or not."

I look at some of the ways the community has reacted to the PTS and since Murkmire went Live, and I think "I'm not sure you could pay me to mediate between this community and ZOS." I'm not sure how the community reps do it for free.

Maybe this community is better than other game communities. That's not the same as saying this community treats the Devs well.

I dislike the cliche of "Be the change you want to see" but I think it applies here.

jcm2606 · October 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

@jcm2606

I understand the community frustration. I also understand that the community's propensity to unload that frustration at the Devs in rather unhelpful ways doesn't exactly lead the Devs to the natural conclusion of "We should communicate more with these people who yell at us whether we communicate with them or not."

I look at some of the ways the community has reacted to the PTS and since Murkmire went Live, and I think "I'm not sure you could pay me to mediate between this community and ZOS." I'm not sure how the community reps do it for free.

Maybe this community is better than other game communities. That's not the same as saying this community treats the Devs well.

I dislike the cliche of "Be the change you want to see" but I think it applies here.

The problem is, well thought out and constructive arguments do not work. Unfortunately the only thing that works, evidenced by the fact that the cast time was reverted, is unleashing maximum salt on the forums. This is why I don't blame the community for being so toxic.

Zenimax has shown time and time again that they simply do not care what the community thinks or wants, unless it is conveyed with maximum salt. Facts, numbers, data, constructive reasoning. Doesn't matter. All that matters is salt. Salt, salt, salt. With a side of salt.

It sucks, it really does, but this is the position Zenimax has put themselves in, by ignoring the community for so long. I wish it were different, I really do, but Zenimax shows virtually no signs of change.

WoppaBoem · October 2018

The PVE community is really big and most changes bring more DPS to this community hence the imbalance between PVP and PVE. Result many players are actually glad with the work on the game. I played PVE most of this year since I started and liked many changes that where done. I now moved to PVP and I really see the impacts which really aren't good for the experience. They really need to start working on the fact to have certain things behave differently in both worlds. The enchantments change is really postive for PVE great news but for PVP you should not be able to apply dots and let the enchantments do all the work. I really hope they can get the insight to change their approach to keep all combat mechanics work the same in PVE and PVP. Look at a simple game as Call of Duty even between game modes combat mechanics are different no big deal really.

Turelus · October 2018

Davor wrote: »

One thing you are forgetting. I am sure the devs do appreciate it, BUT it's the Zenimax lawyers who tell the Zenimax bosses that they should keep quiet. The Devs are NOT ALLOWED to say anything. Sadly most companies are like this. Just look at the Guild Wars 2 fiasco that happened a few months ago. Forget the company name. That is why Devs can't speak.

As for the people who do speak, they are not devs. They are a mouth piece but don't work on the game that I know of. Please correct me if I am wrong. So like I said the Devs do appreciate us. It's the lawyers and shareholders who don't give a crap. They have their money. All they want is more. They will never appreciate us.

Sadly Zenimax is worse than Electronic Arts. They are more like Games Workshop of old. They will sue you if you look at them funny. I never herd of EA suing companies just because of a name. The Zenimax Online developers are good. I am sure they are doing the best with what little they are given.

Sadly the over priced lawyers and accountants and bosses ruin all the hard work. As I said, they don't give a crap.

Don't blame the devs. Place the blame where it belongs.

Warning: Personal non-evidence based opinion piece.

Honestly this has always been my impression as well. It's the kind of standard corporate structure of games companies based in the US. A very heavy focus on marketing that "perfect view" rather than giving staff the freedoms.

The two most communicative companies I've seen are Paradox and CCP Games, both are based in the EU and don't really have corporate overloads. However both companies also have very strict forums rules about abuse towards their staff, with CCP at times even extending bans to game accounts due to abuse on the forums.

deLioncourt · October 2018

The_Camper wrote: »

I've been playing MMOS since 2002 ranging from RPGS, RTS to FPS and have been playing ESO for last three years. Hands down this is the best and most forgiving community I have seen both in game and forums. Each day that I spend playing here makes me feel that Zenimax as a company does not appreciate their player base as a whole one bit.

I can't recall any other major gaming community supporting and keep forgiving as much as ESO player base has in the past. specially during recent major screw ups by devs. Sure, there have been countless forum flaming and players, but come to think of it, are they wrong to do so? Dev and player communication keeps getting distant day by day. Class rep program is there, but looking at the disparity of changes that have been suggested by player base as a whole and the changes that actually went through, one might question, Is it even working?

There are numerous threads each day regarding game breaking bugs that simply stops certain classes or playstyles from playing the game (most recent example: jabs, swing issue). Not a single comment from either the Dev team or the PR department acknowledging these bugs. forget an ETA on the bug fix, let alone players can't even get a single post saying "yes we are looking into this. sorry about the inconvenience", instead they get told to watch their tone in posts with ban threats. This is not new either. The gap of player and dev communication has been increasing since morrowind days, where Devs started ignoring their most valuable assets as a company, people who play their product. I cannot think of any other top MMO team doing this and not getting a huge backlash from their player base.

and yet, majority ESO player base keeps their support and keeps backing up the devs, even in dark times. So please, take a moment to appreciate the community. Do not ignore the players when they voice their concern. Have some basic decency as a company to give a simple reply to your customers when they tell that something is wrong. PLEASE DO NOT BECOME ELECTRONIC ARTS.

Thank you.

To the fellow forum goers and players : Keep being awesome

This man should be CEO of Zenimax.

seventaru · October 2018

I agree 100%
It actually blows my mind just how forgiving and committed our playerbase is. I actually think it's maybe making it way too easy for ZOS to keep using and abusing us.

As a side note, I want to point out that the devs are probably doing the best they can (combat balance team seems a bit misguided), and the anger should actually be pointed at the management. These guys are clearly understaffed with too short of deadlines and too big of a workload.

The above mentioned issue comes down to greed and has been the death of many an MMO. I'm not saying that ESO is dying but it does scare me a bit.

Mayrael · October 2018

jcm2606 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

@jcm2606

I understand the community frustration. I also understand that the community's propensity to unload that frustration at the Devs in rather unhelpful ways doesn't exactly lead the Devs to the natural conclusion of "We should communicate more with these people who yell at us whether we communicate with them or not."

I look at some of the ways the community has reacted to the PTS and since Murkmire went Live, and I think "I'm not sure you could pay me to mediate between this community and ZOS." I'm not sure how the community reps do it for free.

Maybe this community is better than other game communities. That's not the same as saying this community treats the Devs well.

I dislike the cliche of "Be the change you want to see" but I think it applies here.

The problem is, well thought out and constructive arguments do not work. Unfortunately the only thing that works, evidenced by the fact that the cast time was reverted, is unleashing maximum salt on the forums. This is why I don't blame the community for being so toxic.

Zenimax has shown time and time again that they simply do not care what the community thinks or wants, unless it is conveyed with maximum salt. Facts, numbers, data, constructive reasoning. Doesn't matter. All that matters is salt. Salt, salt, salt. With a side of salt.

It sucks, it really does, but this is the position Zenimax has put themselves in, by ignoring the community for so long. I wish it were different, I really do, but Zenimax shows virtually no signs of change.

This. We as a community, do whatever it takes to be listened, if this means a lot of salt, that's their choice.

Another thing is thier communication with us. It's extremely frustrating to see most of the responses are just "cleaning" messages. If they have time to read through thousands of threads to find the ones that break the forum rules, why they have no time to write: "Thanks for feedback, your issue has been passed to team for further investigation"?

Ertosi · October 2018

jcm2606 wrote: »

The problem is, well thought out and constructive arguments do not work. Unfortunately the only thing that works, evidenced by the fact that the cast time was reverted, is unleashing maximum salt on the forums. This is why I don't blame the community for being so toxic.

I see the real situation as a complete 180 on this perspective, as well as why I disagree with the original premise of this thread. I like that the original poster seems to be positive, but the reality is this is overly toxic community that just soils over anything and everything the Devs do. No wonder they don't communicate when that's always what greets them each time they do.

jcm2606 wrote: »

Zenimax has shown time and time again that they simply do not care what the community thinks or wants, unless it is conveyed with maximum salt.

How on earth can any reasonable person have this perspective when the game continually gets updated with regular new DLC? You can never please everyone and those that try are doomed to please no one. So good on them for having their vision and sticking to it. Those that don't agree with that vision are welcome to constructively voice it, but those that deeply disagree with it should simply find a different game that more aligns with what they want, rather than QQ and rage in juvenile attempts to change it to their wants. Those who think pouring salt all over everything is the answer aren't part of the problem, they're the entire problem. If they, or more preferably just that attitude, were to leave we would see the community finally turn into the vision the OP sees.

Ruinhorn · October 2018

jcm2606 wrote: »

This needs to be pinned. Zenimax can ignore the community all they want. But they need to expect and accept the logical outcome of doing so: a dead product.

There was a poll which showed that the major part of community has ESO+, so I disagree with it.
Agressive politics of ZOS (ingame monetization of low quality virtual items while ignoring players-developers communication) works fine. You could notice how they experimenting with Crown Store: free crates, daily rewards with crates too, Murkmire as a monthly reward and etc. People vote with their cash, and they vote for leaving things as they are. Let's be honest here.
ESO won't be a dead product. People will continue to leave and come, but in average players will pay again and again. They will pay for recolored mounts, for ear-flowers, for crates with insanely low drop chance of at least interesting items.

In modern situation I can understand ZOS, and you know, I agree with them.
MMO is a business. And if players are ready to pay again and again for nothing, why should I (as a business) do something better? I get enough money to pay my workers and to support the game.

This was told for a great amount of times: if you don't like something - vote with your cash. Otherwise, don't ask "why this thing doesn't work as intended for years".

Trancestor · October 2018

ZOS is worse than EA, at least games by EA get fixed.

ezio45 · October 2018

The_Camper wrote: »

@Turelus

I do agree that the class rep program is one of the best things ZOS came up with when it comes to communication. However, the execution of the system is awful. This is just how i see it and only due to the past results. I'll give you some recent examples:

Class reps get feedback from the community and it goes like this.

Community & Reps: Healers not being needed in most content is due to CP creep and and high DPS so people can simply ignore the mechanics.

ZOS: let us add 1 sec cast time to shields. this will make healers relevant.

C&R: No one asked for this. This is an awful change. Change shields to be a buff so people can't stack them while single shields being worthwhile to use.

ZOS: lol. now your shields are capped at 40% of your health. this should make healers relevant. hey, we removed the upfront heal from one of the shields btw.

C&R: hmmm.

Example 2:

C&R: Swift trait stacking is a problem. Also please buff shuffle to be in line with forward momentum.

ZOS: we have nerfed swift.

C&R: great. thank you for listening to us.

ZOS: we have also nerfed all the sources of major expedition.

C&R: whaaaat?

ZOS: also nerfed forward momentum so it's down to shuffle's level

C&R: *muffled screams*

the muffled screams part made me lol, you got an awesome

ezio45 · October 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

@jcm2606

I understand the community frustration. I also understand that the community's propensity to unload that frustration at the Devs in rather unhelpful ways doesn't exactly lead the Devs to the natural conclusion of "We should communicate more with these people who yell at us whether we communicate with them or not."

I look at some of the ways the community has reacted to the PTS and since Murkmire went Live, and I think "I'm not sure you could pay me to mediate between this community and ZOS." I'm not sure how the community reps do it for free.

Maybe this community is better than other game communities. That's not the same as saying this community treats the Devs well.

I dislike the cliche of "Be the change you want to see" but I think it applies here.

ok lets be fair, we have treated the devs well since morrowind.... this patch broke the camels back, theres only so much we can be ok with!!!!

Inarre · October 2018

Whenever I see posts like this I wonder if people have ever worked at a gaming company to understand the behind the scenes stuff.

There's tons of sticky stuff like NDAs to deal with. Let alone the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of people complaining on the forums, all with conflicting opinions, and a handful of Devs to respond to/pass on that information.

Making sweeping balance changes overnight is asking for a mess. That's not appreciating the community. I see them comment on things quite often but changes have to be rolled out in hotfixes or incremental patches. They need to be coded and tested before they go live. They need to be communicated appropriately.

If the Devs took every single cry for nerf seriously they would be spending 3000% percent of their time rolling out and communicating patch notes for these complaints, there would never be new content or events, and we would never have a stable game to play.

Changes take time. The Devs do a pretty decent job communicating and fixing where they can in reasonable time.

Just perspective.

Trancestor · October 2018

seventaru wrote: »

I agree 100%
It actually blows my mind just how forgiving and committed our playerbase is. I actually think it's maybe making it way too easy for ZOS to keep using and abusing us.

As a side note, I want to point out that the devs are probably doing the best they can (combat balance team seems a bit misguided), and the anger should actually be pointed at the management. These guys are clearly understaffed with too short of deadlines and too big of a workload.

The above mentioned issue comes down to greed and has been the death of many an MMO. I'm not saying that ESO is dying but it does scare me a bit.

No, the balance team are to be fully blamed here, they are the ones coming up with these ridiculous changes that no one asked for, what does being understaffed have to do with not listening to the community and going head to head with us? Realizing what's a bad change and what's a good change does not require hundreds of people, even one person is enough for that, all he has to do is listen to the community, oh and actually play the game because ZOS balance team obviously doesn't.

AcadianPaladin · October 2018

I agree that we are forgiving and loyal. This is the only game I play for two years and I have ESO+. Despite the fact that each major patch feels like a gut shot and makes the game less fun for me. Every. Single. Patch. More and more I find myself leaning toward dumping ESO and reinstalling Oblivion but the massive scale and beauty of ESO keeps me here. At least for today and perhaps tomorrow as I curse and wrestle with the latest patch that shelved two of my characters.

Communication is indeed a big problem. Shield nerf. PvP players assure me they did not want the nerf. The devs said it was for PvE to make healers more relevant. Now we are in my lane as I main a magplar healer. The PvE healer community correctly screamed that the problem healers face is not mages with shields; rather, it is boss one shot mechanics. Therefore I conclude that ZoS rationale for the shield nerf is completely absurd. Does this leave me angry and confused? Because I love this game a lot, of course it does.

As I said, I only play one game at a time and usually stay there for years. Leaving a game is a huge deal for me and I am trying to stay with ESO. But it is getting harder and harder to stay.

jcm2606 · October 2018

Ertosi wrote: »

I see the real situation as a complete 180 on this perspective, as well as why I disagree with the original premise of this thread. I like that the original poster seems to be positive, but the reality is this is overly toxic community that just soils over anything and everything the Devs do. No wonder they don't communicate when that's always what greets them each time they do.

Want to know why the community is so hostile towards Zenimax? Let me show you...

ZOS told us they are aware players are moving too fast and are too difficult to target with melee and short ranged abilities. They want to slow us down. Swift Jewelry was something that was specifically mentioned. The Major Expedition buff being too strong was hinted at. The reps agreed that players are too fast and that Swift Jewelry is a primary offender, especially when it was additive to other speed boosts and Forward Momentum. The reps did not agree that the Major Expedition was too strong.

So, here we see Zenimax discussing movement speed with the class reps, and possible ways to address it. Zenimax hinted at Major Expedition being too strong, though the reps disagreed, stating that Major Expedition was fine, and didn't need addressing.

Then we look at the patch notes for Murkmire...

Fiery Grip: This ability now grants Major Expedition for a maximum of 4 seconds instead of 6 seconds.

Boundless Storm: This ability now grants Major Expedition for a maximum of 4 seconds instead of 7.5.

Falcon's Swiftness: This ability now grants Major Expedition for a maximum of 4 seconds instead of 10 seconds.

Quick Cloak: This ability now grants Major Expedition for a maximum of 4 seconds instead of 5 seconds.

Hasty Retreat: This ability now grants Major Expedition for a maximum of 4 seconds instead of 5 seconds.

Reduced the duration of the Major Expedition buff granted from some item sets to 8 seconds from 20 seconds.

Reduced the duration of Major Expedition granted from potions, to be more in line with other powerful Major buffs such as Major Vitality. For a potion at maximum rank, this reduces the duration of Major Expedition from 40.6 second to 12.5 seconds, before any modifications from things such as enchantments or passives.

Even though the reps outright told Zenimax that Major Expedition was not a problem, Zenimax went ahead and gutted Major Expedition, rendering 1vX basically impossible, and completely sucking the fun out of PVP, and to an extent PVE. Zenimax ignores what the reps said, and went ahead with their own nerfs, on week 3 of the PTS, where adequate testing cannot be done in time before the patch hits live.

This is why the community is so toxic towards Zenimax. 2-3 years of *** like this. Blatant ineptitude on the part of the current balancing team, with complete disregard of the opinions and suggestions given by people who actually play the damn game at the level these changes truly impact.

Want a comparison of what it was like on launch? Skim these super old patch notes. Specifically...

Alongside these new features, you’ll find many fixes to quests, combat, art, and audio. We’re also continuing to work on the overall class balance, but are doing so carefully so as not to impact your build too much.

Zenimax actually gave a *** about maintaining balance, in a fun way, without completely uprooting the meta every 3 months. If this were to happen today, the entire damn community would honestly think Zenimax would have been bought out, because Zenimax plainly doesn't give two *** about that nowadays.

This is why the community is so toxic towards Zenimax. Because they have done better. They can do better. They have the tools to be better. But they'd rather make blanket nerfs with their SledgeNerfenator 3000 every 3 months, completely disrupting the balance of the game, forcing more and more players to stop spending money or simply moving on.

Ertosi wrote: »

How on earth can any reasonable person have this perspective when the game continually gets updated with regular new DLC? You can never please everyone and those that try are doomed to please no one. So good on them for having their vision and sticking to it. Those that don't agree with that vision are welcome to constructively voice it, but those that deeply disagree with it should simply find a different game that more aligns with what they want, rather than QQ and rage in juvenile attempts to change it to their wants. Those who think pouring salt all over everything is the answer aren't part of the problem, they're the entire problem. If they, or more preferably just that attitude, were to leave we would see the community finally turn into the vision the OP sees.

That isn't listening to the community. That is churning out content. Content that is, by the way, 4 years old.

You know Murkmire? The same Murkmire we received on Monday? That has been in development since the beginning of the game. So has Thieve's Guild. So has Dark Brotherhood. So has Imperial City. Clockwork City, Morrowind, Summerset, all of these were already planned ahead 4 years ago. None of the stuff you're getting now is completely new. It is already planned and being worked on, ready for release a year or two down the road.

Listening to the community would be fixing bugs that have been in the game for months. Months. Like sprint bug. Sprint bug has been in for a good half a year, and only just now Zenimax has even acknowledged it is a thing, even though the forums have screamed about it until we're blue in the face. To get Zenimax to even acknowledge a bug, it takes a metric ton of salt. If that doesn't say something about how bad Zenimax is at communication, I don't know what will.

Getting past that, as I said to Varanis, people have tried to have peaceful and constructive discussions. It doesn't work. The feedback threads in the Combat & Character Mechanics sections are full of constructive comments dissecting various "pain points" of the topics at hand, let alone the hundreds of other constructive threads. It doesn't work. Zenimax continues ignoring them.

Even the class reps can't even get through to Zenimax. And there's only 12 of them, all of them handling the program professionally, and interacting with the community, gathering feedback. The only way to get through to Zenimax is salt. No, this isn't anecdotal, this is literally what happened with the shield changes. Go look at the Sorc thread on the PTS. Full of salt, memes and QQ, and guess what. Week 2 of the PTS, cast time removed. And yet DK, Templar, Warden, all provide constructive feedback with literal piles of data. Nothing. All they get are further nerfs, minor buffs, and band-aid fixes. While Sorc has the #1 pain point on the PTS reverted week 2.

Again, it sucks. I honestly do wish it wasn't like this. But Zenimax did this to themselves. 2-3 years of this ***. 2-3 years of silence. 2-3 years of being blatantly ignored. 2-3 years of blanket nerfs uprooting the entire meta overnight. 2-3 years of disappointing PVP.

Salt is the only thing Zenimax knows how to interpret, apparently, and this forum is perfectly fluent in it. Almost a match made in heaven, if you ask me.

usmcjdking · October 2018

The_Camper wrote: »

I've been playing MMOS since 2002 ranging from RPGS, RTS to FPS and have been playing ESO for last three years. Hands down this is the best and most forgiving community I have seen both in game and forums. Each day that I spend playing here makes me feel that Zenimax as a company does not appreciate their player base as a whole one bit.

I can't recall any other major gaming community supporting and keep forgiving as much as ESO player base has in the past. specially during recent major screw ups by devs. Sure, there have been countless forum flaming and players, but come to think of it, are they wrong to do so? Dev and player communication keeps getting distant day by day. Class rep program is there, but looking at the disparity of changes that have been suggested by player base as a whole and the changes that actually went through, one might question, Is it even working?

There are numerous threads each day regarding game breaking bugs that simply stops certain classes or playstyles from playing the game (most recent example: jabs, swing issue). Not a single comment from either the Dev team or the PR department acknowledging these bugs. forget an ETA on the bug fix, let alone players can't even get a single post saying "yes we are looking into this. sorry about the inconvenience", instead they get told to watch their tone in posts with ban threats. This is not new either. The gap of player and dev communication has been increasing since morrowind days, where Devs started ignoring their most valuable assets as a company, people who play their product. I cannot think of any other top MMO team doing this and not getting a huge backlash from their player base.

and yet, majority ESO player base keeps their support and keeps backing up the devs, even in dark times. So please, take a moment to appreciate the community. Do not ignore the players when they voice their concern. Have some basic decency as a company to give a simple reply to your customers when they tell that something is wrong. PLEASE DO NOT BECOME ELECTRONIC ARTS.

Thank you.

To the fellow forum goers and players : Keep being awesome

ESO is slowly turning into one of those episodes of Kitchen Nightmares where the kitchen has 50 items on the menu of which they can only actually cook 10 of them.

ScardyFox · October 2018

Inarre wrote: »

The Devs do a pretty decent job communicating and fixing where they can in reasonable time.

Yeah... I don't see that at all. I have never seen that since being here at beta. The devs have always come across (on the forums) as being more concerned with policing peoples expression(s) of frustration rather than address what people are actually frustrated about. Never mind taking months at a time bothering to fix things that are clearly broken by their own words.

They don't listen and never have come across as a group that does. From some class reps flat out saying they don't to me personally watching the lack of communication over the years. Hell, it was only a month or two ago the new guy on their team posted he'd be around more and would like to interact with the community. That was greeted with a lot of fanfare and juxtapose with the community expression a collective "finally".

Such reactions don't manifest because people are answering and addressing problems readily, but rather because for a moment people thought that vicious circle might actually break.

Too bad it didn't and probably never will.

jcm2606 · October 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

The_Camper wrote: »

I've been playing MMOS since 2002 ranging from RPGS, RTS to FPS and have been playing ESO for last three years. Hands down this is the best and most forgiving community I have seen both in game and forums. Each day that I spend playing here makes me feel that Zenimax as a company does not appreciate their player base as a whole one bit.

I can't recall any other major gaming community supporting and keep forgiving as much as ESO player base has in the past. specially during recent major screw ups by devs. Sure, there have been countless forum flaming and players, but come to think of it, are they wrong to do so? Dev and player communication keeps getting distant day by day. Class rep program is there, but looking at the disparity of changes that have been suggested by player base as a whole and the changes that actually went through, one might question, Is it even working?

There are numerous threads each day regarding game breaking bugs that simply stops certain classes or playstyles from playing the game (most recent example: jabs, swing issue). Not a single comment from either the Dev team or the PR department acknowledging these bugs. forget an ETA on the bug fix, let alone players can't even get a single post saying "yes we are looking into this. sorry about the inconvenience", instead they get told to watch their tone in posts with ban threats. This is not new either. The gap of player and dev communication has been increasing since morrowind days, where Devs started ignoring their most valuable assets as a company, people who play their product. I cannot think of any other top MMO team doing this and not getting a huge backlash from their player base.

and yet, majority ESO player base keeps their support and keeps backing up the devs, even in dark times. So please, take a moment to appreciate the community. Do not ignore the players when they voice their concern. Have some basic decency as a company to give a simple reply to your customers when they tell that something is wrong. PLEASE DO NOT BECOME ELECTRONIC ARTS.

Thank you.

To the fellow forum goers and players : Keep being awesome

ESO is slowly turning into one of those episodes of Kitchen Nightmares where the kitchen has 50 items on the menu of which they can only actually cook 10 of them.

Implying it isn't already.