My Suggestion for balancing enchants

Strider__Roshin · October 2018

Cut the enchant strength for 1 handed weapons in half, but add a passive that doubles the strength of enchants for sword and board in order to maintain the effectiveness of the crushing enchant.

@ZOS_RobGarrett
@ZOS_Wrobel
@ZOS_RichLambert

Mihael · October 2018

They just need to revert the change they did this patch

Darkenarlol · October 2018

yep let's nerf one of the few things in Nerfmire that was not a Murk... oh sorry i mean nerf

and again... because pvp

you know what? i have a whole collection of typical stam players advices from last couple of months =D

- l2p

- adapt

- noone cares

- play like everyone ( oh i mean die) without your crutches

edited to add my faw - learn to kite you cannot facetank people for an hour now lol

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · October 2018

Daus wrote: »

Cut the enchant strength for 1 handed weapons in half, but add a passive that doubles the strength of enchants for sword and board in order to maintain the effectiveness of the crushing enchant.

@ZOS_RobGarrett
@ZOS_Wrobel
@ZOS_RichLambert

or leave the enchants on one handers halved and have a good reason to run an ice staff?

Strider__Roshin · October 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Cut the enchant strength for 1 handed weapons in half, but add a passive that doubles the strength of enchants for sword and board in order to maintain the effectiveness of the crushing enchant.

@ZOS_RobGarrett
@ZOS_Wrobel
@ZOS_RichLambert

or leave the enchants on one handers halved and have a good reason to run an ice staff?

Not a bad approach.

Feanor · October 2018

@Daus

The simultaneous proc from all weapons even on off hand and back bar and from Bleeds is fundamentally broken. Tinkering with the values won’t help here. Reverting the “bug fix” is the best solution.

IZZEFlameLash · October 2018

Darkenarlol wrote: »

yep let's nerf one of the few things in Nerfmire that was not a Murk... oh sorry i mean nerf

and again... because pvp

you know what? i have a whole collection of typical stam players advices from last couple of months =D

- l2p

- adapt

- noone cares

- play like everyone ( oh i mean die) without your crutches

edited to add my faw - learn to kite you cannot facetank people for an hour now lol

Let's keep the obviously broken mechanic then? Why don't we keep DKs as gods they were back 1.5 and before? Must be because no one bothered to 'l2p' 'adapt' back then according to your logic? Enchants were fine as they were pre-Nerfmire and it is now outright broken.

ScardyFox · October 2018

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Darkenarlol wrote: »

yep let's nerf one of the few things in Nerfmire that was not a Murk... oh sorry i mean nerf

and again... because pvp

you know what? i have a whole collection of typical stam players advices from last couple of months =D

- l2p

- adapt

- noone cares

- play like everyone ( oh i mean die) without your crutches

edited to add my faw - learn to kite you cannot facetank people for an hour now lol

Let's keep the obviously broken mechanic then? Why don't we keep DKs as gods they were back 1.5 and before? Must be because no one bothered to 'l2p' 'adapt' back then according to your logic? Enchants were fine as they were pre-Nerfmire and it is now outright broken.

Exactly.

coplannb16_ESO · October 2018

my suggestion from the other thread:

- either offbar enchants shouldnt proc when not on the bar
- and/or procs should not be triggered by DOTs/Bleeds (or other status effects) only by actively using a weapon ability on the bar you are on
- and DW enchants need to be cut in half (at least the damaging ones) or at least reduced by 25%

the problem with dual wield is that even as a mag-toon the 2 enchants of DW (stam weapon) offer more damage than the loss of light attack damage due to not using a staff.

if DW stays as it is we desparately need a dual wield magicka weapon equivalent!

Turelus · October 2018

It's so simple it could actually work...

John_Falstaff · October 2018

No. Because it doesn't equalize 1H enchants to 2H in fact, but rather makes it worse than 2H/staff/bow. Enchantments don't stack, and so, 1 + 1/2 + 1/2 enchantment on DW will not be equivalent of other weapons. You can't slot two half-effect glyphs for the effect of a full glyph. Want to run full-strength absorb on one bar and full-strength berserker on the other? Let's check who would be able to do it:

2H: check.
Bow: yup.
Staff: mmhm.
2W: nope.

And no, please no "if you wear a bucket on your head it's a buff" preaching - no telling that if I run half-effect poison on one hand and half-effect berserker on another it would be just the same as a single full berserker. No it wouldn't.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · October 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

No. Because it doesn't equalize 1H enchants to 2H in fact, but rather makes it worse than 2H/staff/bow. Enchantments don't stack, and so, 1 + 1/2 + 1/2 enchantment on DW will not be equivalent of other weapons. You can't slot two half-effect glyphs for the effect of a full glyph. Want to run full-strength absorb on one bar and full-strength berserker on the other? Let's check who would be able to do it:

2H: check.
Bow: yup.
Staff: mmhm.
2W: nope.

And no, please no "if you wear a bucket on your head it's a buff" preaching - no telling that if I run half-effect poison on one hand and half-effect berserker on another it would be just the same as a single full berserker. No it wouldn't.

Firstly, "Bucket on the head" is not an idiom or an expression used in English, so stop trying to use it, no one knows what you are trying to say.

secondly, it would prolly be better, cause you still would be procing poisoned status effect, the same rate as a full strength one. though you would ideally have your berzerk on the back bar, with 2 damage on your dual wield bar, so you get to choose that mob or player get the double proc with enchants and blood craze. you put a disease and poison, you will proc the secondary effect just like a full strength.

Biro123 · October 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@Daus

The simultaneous proc from all weapons even on off hand and back bar and from Bleeds is fundamentally broken. Tinkering with the values won’t help here. Reverting the “bug fix” is the best solution.

I don't see why it wouldn't work. A single enchant per weapon, proccing on cooldown if you keep your dots up feels reasonable to me. I guess there would be room for further adjustment if needed.. Bit-by bit, rather than the sledgehammer..

But I also wonder if they should ALSO change to proc off all damage abilities cast from the same bar as that weapon.. given that some weapons have better access to dots than others, giving them a distinct 'proc advantage'. I mean, SnB and resto staff are at a distinct disadvantage here.. For some of the others, I'm not so sure as it would depend on how quickly their respective dots tick.

Btw, do bleeds proc them? I'm not sure - but if they do, I think that should change so it has to be either a HA/LA or a slotted ability.

John_Falstaff · October 2018

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO , oh, you again; I asked you about your proposed alternative when you suggested same in different thread - but you went quiet and never responded. So yes, right now you're trying to suggest me to put a bucket on my head. Again.

And no, it wouldn't be better, because berserker's weapon damage affects all your skills and it affects your healing; it also affects your AoEs, unlike damage glyph (which would be strictly single target). Oh, and you're ignoring again that you have to run full absorb for sustain, so no placing berserk on back bar in that scheme you propose (and that'd despite me having explicitly mentioning it in my message - so, I take it you still don't have a way to run full absorb and full berserk, and that's why you're not answering that).

Earlier, you also tried your 'you're doing it wrong' by advertising how good Combustion is with infused poison glyph, and when I gave you numbers I got after testing it, you went silent again (what could be easier, to test your own advice, to think of it). I'm inclined to start ignoring you, because nothing you advise ever makes sense.

nckg84 · October 2018

Darkenarlol wrote: »

yep let's nerf one of the few things in Nerfmire that was not a Murk... oh sorry i mean nerf

and again... because pvp

you know what? i have a whole collection of typical stam players advices from last couple of months =D

- l2p

- adapt

- noone cares

- play like everyone ( oh i mean die) without your crutches

edited to add my faw - learn to kite you cannot facetank people for an hour now lol

This does not apply to PvP only. Are you really that boring that you want to increase your dps but not increase pve difficulty? Other then skillpoints there is already no point in doing overland quests etc. due to it being so easy when your maxed in cp.

Keep buffing all the dps etc. ZOS and in time people will leave your game because of the boring grind PVE.

Solariken · October 2018

Or enchants could be made to not proc on bleeds. I mean the argument could definitely be made that a bleed isn't really a "weapon ability"

Bleeds as a category already have the special exception of ignoring resistances so why not have the caveat be that they can't proc enchants?

ccmedaddy · October 2018

nckg84 wrote: »

Darkenarlol wrote: »

yep let's nerf one of the few things in Nerfmire that was not a Murk... oh sorry i mean nerf

and again... because pvp

you know what? i have a whole collection of typical stam players advices from last couple of months =D

- l2p

- adapt

- noone cares

- play like everyone ( oh i mean die) without your crutches

edited to add my faw - learn to kite you cannot facetank people for an hour now lol

This does not apply to PvP only. Are you really that boring that you want to increase your dps but not increase pve difficulty? Other then skillpoints there is already no point in doing overland quests etc. due to it being so easy when your maxed in cp.

Keep buffing all the dps etc. ZOS and in time people will leave your game because of the boring grind PVE.

Well said. This is how I tell good PvE players from bad ones: good players don't *need* broken stuff like their monster set doing 4k dps or their enchants adding 3~4k dps with no skills involved because they are good players.

Bad ones... well, they're all on the forums QQings about how PvP balance is ruining their PvE experience.

Minno · October 2018

Darkenarlol wrote: »

yep let's nerf one of the few things in Nerfmire that was not a Murk... oh sorry i mean nerf

and again... because pvp

you know what? i have a whole collection of typical stam players advices from last couple of months =D

- l2p

- adapt

- noone cares

- play like everyone ( oh i mean die) without your crutches

edited to add my faw - learn to kite you cannot facetank people for an hour now lol

Yea except these enchants were added for PVE purposes. So PVE broke PVP (again).
Another PVE change this patch, was shields.

9/10 changes in this game are done with PVE in mind first with PVP either second or as an unintended impact. I welcome all to challenge that with sources.

Kanar · October 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

No. Because it doesn't equalize 1H enchants to 2H in fact, but rather makes it worse than 2H/staff/bow. Enchantments don't stack, and so, 1 + 1/2 + 1/2 enchantment on DW will not be equivalent of other weapons. You can't slot two half-effect glyphs for the effect of a full glyph. Want to run full-strength absorb on one bar and full-strength berserker on the other? Let's check who would be able to do it:

2H: check.
Bow: yup.
Staff: mmhm.
2W: nope.

And no, please no "if you wear a bucket on your head it's a buff" preaching - no telling that if I run half-effect poison on one hand and half-effect berserker on another it would be just the same as a single full berserker. No it wouldn't.

After 4 years of DW having superior enchants than everyone else, maybe it could stand to be inferior for a while.

Or to deliver what you want, it could be that when DWing only the main hand enchant can proc; offhand enchant wouldn't do anything.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · October 2018

Minno wrote: »

Darkenarlol wrote: »

yep let's nerf one of the few things in Nerfmire that was not a Murk... oh sorry i mean nerf

and again... because pvp

you know what? i have a whole collection of typical stam players advices from last couple of months =D

- l2p

- adapt

- noone cares

- play like everyone ( oh i mean die) without your crutches

edited to add my faw - learn to kite you cannot facetank people for an hour now lol

Yea except these enchants were added for PVE purposes. So PVE broke PVP (again).
Another PVE change this patch, was shields.

9/10 changes in this game are done with PVE in mind first with PVP either second or as an unintended impact. I welcome all to challenge that with sources.

As someone that has historically been predominantly a PVE player, I will say a few things. First, the number of times I saw something PVP oriented negatively impact PVE was more than I could count. I think the 9/10 you mention is certainly biased and inflated. I think if we are being objective, its closer to 50/50. Second, I hate that there is always this division between PVP and PVE players, because even though I PVE more, I still enjoy PVP.

Third, this time around, I cant argue with you. If you believe the intentions behind the nerfs that have been stated by the devs, and you analyze the changes, it is abundantly clear: They made changes directed at PVE, that have thrown PVP into chaos, and the worst part is, they did nothing to address the problems they were trying to fix in PVE.

*Logs back into Cyro on my stam toon with infused torugs pact axes because I have abandoned my magsorc...

John_Falstaff · October 2018

@Kanar , I could get behind it, actually. I mean, only one enchant on DW. Why not; it wouldn't take away as much as it would seem at first, and much less than ugly idea of two half-strength enchants.

As for making DW inferior - well, it wouldn't make 2H any better. 2H's problem isn't as much one enchant (magicka only has just one enchant, and it's keeping up with stamina in PvE content), as bad design of whole skill line. So the only thing halving enchants would do is to push magicka far ahead and leave 2H and DW in same sort of oubliette.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · October 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO , oh, you again; I asked you about your proposed alternative when you suggested same in different thread - but you went quiet and never responded. So yes, right now you're trying to suggest me to put a bucket on my head. Again.

yes it is me, back again. yes it is you, with a bucket on their head, for no goram reason.

And no, it wouldn't be better, because berserker's weapon damage affects all your skills and it affects your healing; it also affects your AoEs, unlike damage glyph (which would be strictly single target). Oh, and you're ignoring again that you have to run full absorb for sustain, so no placing berserk on back bar in that scheme you propose (and that'd despite me having explicitly mentioning it in my message - so, I take it you still don't have a way to run full absorb and full berserk, and that's why you're not answering that).

blah blah, it is called trade off, you get the option to have 2 enchants, half strength, with the best single target weapon dot, the best aoe in the game, the only range spammable in a melee skill line, you get 2 full strength weapon traits, either nirn/infused or infused/infused. i am not ignoring anything. i like the idea that you have to choose between damage and sustain. you keep comparing it to running full berzerk and full absorb, well dual wield gets to have another source of damage, that can crit, on their front bar, you are ignoring that and dismissing that. you are wrong to be doing this. maybe take that goram bucket off.

Earlier, you also tried your 'you're doing it wrong' by advertising how good Combustion is with infused poison glyph, and when I gave you numbers I got after testing it, you went silent again (what could be easier, to test your own advice, to think of it). I'm inclined to start ignoring you, because nothing you advise ever makes sense.

you talk so weird, "yOu WeNt SiLeNt AgAiN" like i felt defeated, you ever think you are not the only person that matters or that i dont care about you enough to respond to your every inane rambling?

Ragnarock41 · October 2018

How about admitting for once in forever that balancing is harder than they think and revert the stupid change?

Strider__Roshin · October 2018

Just a clarification, currently the strategy that's the most effective is to have an infused Maelstrom bow with the berserker enchant. My Suggestion would have zero influence on the potency of this strategy so the argument that DW would have to have 2 berserker enchants simply doesn't hold weight.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · October 2018

Daus wrote: »

Just a clarification, currently the strategy that's the most effective is to have an infused Maelstrom bow with the berserker enchant. My Suggestion would have zero influence on the potency of this strategy so the argument that DW would have to have 2 berserker enchants simply doesn't hold weight.

The way enchantments work is that they don't stack, so the double enchantments would just proc one till it was dry then proc the other, I suppose that could be a plus as well, double the length, half the strength. The idea is to tone dual wield enchantments down. You are saying that the fact that cutting them in half makes them less potent doesn't makes sense, that is the point. We want dual wield to have the weakest enchants, cause daul weild get another one.

Strider__Roshin · October 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Just a clarification, currently the strategy that's the most effective is to have an infused Maelstrom bow with the berserker enchant. My Suggestion would have zero influence on the potency of this strategy so the argument that DW would have to have 2 berserker enchants simply doesn't hold weight.

The way enchantments work is that they don't stack, so the double enchantments would just proc one till it was dry then proc the other, I suppose that could be a plus as well, double the length, half the strength. The idea is to tone dual wield enchantments down. You are saying that the fact that cutting them in half makes them less potent doesn't makes sense, that is the point. We want dual wield to have the weakest enchants, cause daul weild get another one.

Even with DW's enchants cut in half they still have the advantage.

For one they have no reduction from the berserker enchant considering they should have it located on their bow or 2H.

As far as the other 2 enchants go it should be poison and then disease/Oblivion/absorb Stam depending on preference.

Considering the poison status affect would be the same regardless, DW could still benefit from having higher enchant DPS while also having defile or/resource management built into their loadout.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · October 2018

.Even with DW's enchants cut in half they still have the advantage.

I agree, the point is to lower the potency, not destroy it.

. For one they have no reduction from the berserker enchant considering they should have it located on their bow or 2H.

I have Said this several times.

. As far as the other 2 enchants go it should be poison and then disease/Oblivion/absorb Stam depending on preference.

Yes they ought to be. 100% agree.

Considering the poison status affect would be the same regardless, DW could still benefit from having higher enchant DPS while also having defile or/resource management built into their loadout.

Yes. They would have higher but not the current 10% or more overall dps.

bigdavid11b16_ESO · October 2018

get real. they dont even read the forums. your thoughts will not be heard or suggestions taken into account.

bigdavid11b16_ESO · October 2018

they dont even listen to class reps.

Strider__Roshin · October 2018

bigdavid11b16_ESO wrote: »

they dont even listen to class reps.

There's a difference between listening, and doing whatever we say. I'm just trying to provide ideas that's all.

John_Falstaff · October 2018

@Daus, look around at builds, and you will find absorb stamina glyph - either on infused main hand or on infused back bar (Alcast, Masel, etc.). If you're not a redguard, it's sine qua non for sustain. And you're suggesting to halve it, putting enchantments not on equal position, but worse position compared to two full enchants like 2H/bow/staff has. If you suggested to only let main (or off) hand enchant be active, I could get behind it, it wouldn't be as destructive as having two half-strength non-stackable enchants. You -have- to have all different enchantments because they share cooldown - basically act like a single enchant - @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO just doesn't have a clue about how enchantments work, it seems - so if berserker is on cooldown, the other one is on cooldown too since they share one global 'berserker cooldown', using two won't result in better uptime. Worse yet, if one is non-infused and it proc'd first, then cooldown will be that of the non-infused one.

So, again, 1 + 0.5 + 0.5 is much worse than 1 + 1 as long as enchantments don't stack. I could imagine DW with just one full enchant, but two half-strength is far worse than one.