Revitalizing Magicka players in PvP

leepalmer95 · October 2018

hero2zer0 wrote: »

Honestly? They should just remove all stamina heals, so all healing comes from magicka costing skills, while the potency of the heal comes only from spell / weapon damage (whichever is higher). Seems fair considering block and dodge cost stam. So stam chars would actually think about their mag pool the same way mag chars think about their stam!

Edit: exclusing skills that heal when doing damage like jabs and blood craze and such.

Lmao.

Peekachu99 · October 2018

It’s almost as if Tristat glyphs don’t exist for half the people in this conversation. If you’re going to successfully PVP you need at least some resources for stam, period. It’s called opportunity cost and it’s to balance against the many, many benefits Mag users have. There’s also next to no stamina abilities that can stack max stam as much as you can stack max mag—another benefit being ignored. Sure you could say the same about weapon damage, except that’s only half as good as you’re not increasing your overall pool, just your output.

Mayrael · October 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

If magicka is so bad why are like half of zergs magplars?

You mean healbot slaves that exist only to keep a zergball alive? Because I can't remember when I have met solo magplar that was build to be something more than pocket healer.

ezio45 · October 2018

MaleAmazon wrote: »

That would work, except that sorcs have no heals, just shields, ummmm sorta.

Sorcs have no heals? Apart from the pet heal which I refuse to use (since I dislike the whole pet concept), how about:

Dark exchange
Negate
Blood magic passive
Critical surge
Drain essence (if vampire)
Meditate
Entropy
The whole bloody restoration staff skill line

And for what it´s worth, the haunting curse bangs are basically like a 100 bpm snare drum on me in PvP so I´d say magsorcs are viable.

Peace

[Edit to remove bait]

Im assuming your trying to trigger me.... it worked

Dark exchange is on a 1.2 sec delay for a heal that is weaker than BOL and can be interupted
Negate is an expensive ult with a weak HOT that you have to stand in
blood magic... your joking.... anyone that thinks bloodmagic is usufull is high, trolling or insane..
crit surge is lovely for pve but in pvp players dont stand in your dots and crit is worthless so you spec for lower crit
Drain essence, again are you joking
meditate, interuptable, channeled, cant cast anything while using it....
entropy super week heal, noone uses this for the heal and sorcs already have surge slotted for sorcery so this is a waste

destro line
healing springs, requires you to stand in it, HOT not burst heal
mutegen, can go to not you at anytime allies are around you
combat/bless again requires you to be stationary
ward ally this is our heal

^ and all of those require wasting entire back bar with a resto cuz ya know stam doesnt get to heal and have a back bar

ezio45 · October 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

If magicka is so bad why are like half of zergs magplars?

because magplar healers are good in heavy, they hid there dps players in that so they cant get hit plus they probably have guard on them

especially when you get a grp of magplars they can take over for the other when someone is out of mag

Perwulf · October 2018

You do realize that game favors magicka right? Let me tell you a story, once upon a time stamina builds ruled tamriel but ZOS didn't like it and they nerfed stamina as soon as it was buffed, it was short lived.

ezio45 · October 2018

hero2zer0 wrote: »

Honestly? They should just remove all stamina heals, so all healing comes from magicka costing skills, while the potency of the heal comes only from spell / weapon damage (whichever is higher). Seems fair considering block and dodge cost stam. So stam chars would actually think about their mag pool the same way mag chars think about their stam!

Edit: exclusing skills that heal when doing damage like jabs and blood craze and such.

except excluding those would excuse the bulk of stam heals, there heals are built into there moves with the exception of vigor and some heals with stam morphs from classes

ezio45 · October 2018

Mayrael wrote: »

Yeah right... Because magicka is so easy to play most of the PvP is dominated by stamina #logic. Like 7k weapon damage 30k hp 30k ressists, bleed + spin2win builds was not the thing, now with major protection on demand even more of a cheese, while magicka asks for not being CC locked most of the time and it's game breaking? Lol.

Nobody sees any issues with builds that can have stats I mentioned above, ignoring opponents ressistances, on top of that being able to buff them selves with just one skill with 25% aoe damage reduction + 30% damage mitigation + 30% movement speed (with blackrose dual wield) + nice aoe dot? LOL. I hope everyone will run builds like this: ravager + clever alchemist back bared + balrogh + perfect spectral cloak on front. Here have it and let's cancer spread, let's make Tamriel burn bleed!

this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 100%

ezio45 · October 2018

RedRook wrote: »

Heh. I just respecced one of my magicka characters to stam a few days ago, and it's amazing to be able to break free as many times as I need to. The only time I get stun locked is if the double-CC bug happens. Imagine it! Never again watching your character helplessly kneeling while you get murdered by the stambois!

This discussion never goes well though. Somehow all magicka specs are sorcs with ward and simultaneously templars with ritual and a burst heal, and none of them should be dodge rolling or breaking free more than twice, they already have it so easy, etc.

It's just a weird coincidence that BGs are packed with stamina specs and argonian magplars. Nothing to see here, move along.

this too

ezio45 · October 2018

ravenarc wrote: »

You do realize that game favors magicka right? Let me tell you a story, once upon a time stamina builds ruled tamriel but ZOS didn't like it and they nerfed stamina as soon as it was buffed, it was short lived.

you are joking right.... stamina

stamblade. stamplar, stam dk, stam warden, magplar healer, magblade bomber, < thats a COMPLETE list of what is playable in pvp

my bad forgot stam sorc spamming dizzying swing and snipe build < again both stam

GrigorijMalahevich · October 2018

remove weapon damage from every set that is/can be heavy, make major exp not work in combat, remove swift - and we can sit down and discuss balance

Emma_Overload · October 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

If magicka is so bad why are like half of zergs magplars?

You're looking at it backwards. The reason zergs are full of Magicka builds is because Magicka sucks, and misery loves company.

Aesthier · October 2018

::sigh::

In PvP, every class and every build, except the one you are running, always seem OP until you play them.

I have determined it is not the builds that suck it is me the player.

Feanor · October 2018

Thats the typical thread that leads to nowhere because any semblance of meaningful discussion is drowned by players who misconstrue a view point about the character spec they favor.

mague · October 2018

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

It'd be a small change that would make magicka players feel and play a lot better in PvP.

Honest answer.. cc should leave the game and not come back. PvP and PvE. My all time favorite is fear. Damn, i am NOT scared ! As imperial magicka templer i have the stamina and enough magicka (if i give up on some damage) but i dislike the mechanics and avoid any melee range when in Cyrodiil. Hence healer...

Game designers should not prevent their players from moving or even grey out their skills.

The_Brosteen · October 2018

On all my stam classes I have to build for enough magicka sustain to be able to maintain enough survivability.

On my magicka toons I have to build for enough stamina sustain to be able to maintain enough survivability.

Its the same but different. But still the same.

fred4 · October 2018

I think magicka characters are fine, they are just a big shock when you played stamina first. I play mostly in CP. I understand from some YouTubers, and my own occasional forays into no CP / BG, that stamina is more important, there, for break free. Blobs made the point of having 15K stamina in no CP to have 3 break frees in hand.

A lot of red herrings here, starting with block costing stamina. Not if you use an ice staff. I had the same impression as the OP when I first switched to magicka and briefly used Way of the Arena to help. I then almost completely got out of the habit of dodge rolling and used shields, and Riposte to boost shield strength. Lately I have been favoring sets that give some stamina return, such as Shacklebreaker and Amber Plasm. Shacklebreaker, especially, was just made for PvP, and is accessible to everyone. Here are two examples of the magicka builds I play:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=91859
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=85566

Both of these builds give nothing away to stamina in terms of speed. In fact, the magplar has more sustainable sprint speed than most stamina builds. Both builds have magicka and stamina weapons to restore either resource with heavy attacks. Most of my builds also use Forward Momentum to counteract roots and snares. I got rid of it on the templar only because it is bugged and cuts the Burning Light damage in half, due to changing it to physical.

Other magicka mobility choices include Mist Form and Streak. Wardens have an anti-snare passive. I agree that Bird of Prey got a bad nerf, but we'll see. When I played a magden before I found it the least necessary to use Forward Momentum on that class.

There are really two ways to build. One is with drinks, such as Ghastly Eye Bowl or Witchmother's Potent Brew. In that case Shacklebreaker is almost the default choice, or at least all prismatic enchants are required. Combine with Blood Spawn, and you have one to two stamina regen buffs, which is usually enough. The other way is to build around tri-food. In the absence of both Blood Spawn and Shackle / Amber / Bloodthorn, I tend to use one stamina regen enchant on light armor magicka toons. Heavy armor is different, as the Constitution passive grants some stamina sustain. Yet another option is using enchants or poisons that restore stamina.

BNOC · October 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

If magicka is so bad why are like half of zergs magplars?

Because for zerglings that are too afraid to get out of their ball or get into melee range (nearly all of them), a magplar with Beam, Breathe and Soul Assault is the easiest 1 button build in the game.

If stamina isn't better, why are nearly all of strong small scale groups made up of stamina characters?

On Topic: Magicka have issues sure, however, I don't think this suggested change is needed at all, but that's just me.
There's more issues and questions tied to this than it's proposed worth.

fred4 · October 2018

BNOC wrote: »

If stamina isn't better, why are nearly all of strong small scale groups made up of stamina characters?

Which is to say that organised / on voice chat small-scale groups have an advantage playing stamina? I think very specifically, it allows you to fight inside a negate, and if you ball up tight, you can all Vigor each other. Does it matter if you only play solo or in random PUGs, though?

BNOC · October 2018

fred4 wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

If stamina isn't better, why are nearly all of strong small scale groups made up of stamina characters?

Which is to say that organised / on voice chat small-scale groups have an advantage playing stamina? I think very specifically, it allows you to fight inside a negate, and if you ball up tight, you can all Vigor each other. Does it matter if you only play solo or in random PUGs, though?

Yes, significant advantages.

Zergs and PUG's are a unique kettle and dependant on their numbers they don't need to move, to kite, to be organised (so-to-speak) and generally don't have to pay much attention - Their composition literally doesn't matter, stam or magicka and they'll generally play whatever is easiest for them.

Though, if stam wasn't significantly out performing magicka for group and solo play, we wouldn't be seeing what we are.
Anyway.. that's not what the topic was about and I don't want to derail it, I also don't think we can argue that stamina doesn't have big advantages over magicka, outside of the zerg.

Perwulf · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

ravenarc wrote: »

You do realize that game favors magicka right? Let me tell you a story, once upon a time stamina builds ruled tamriel but ZOS didn't like it and they nerfed stamina as soon as it was buffed, it was short lived.

you are joking right.... stamina

stamblade. stamplar, stam dk, stam warden, magplar healer, magblade bomber, < thats a COMPLETE list of what is playable in pvp

my bad forgot stam sorc spamming dizzying swing and snipe build < again both stam

Playable? Sure but where is top tier list? Of course mag builds because it has more variety and stronger synergies. Also who in the right mind would include stamplar as playable? They are lowest tier on all stamina builds for pvp.

Mayrael · October 2018

ravenarc wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

ravenarc wrote: »

You do realize that game favors magicka right? Let me tell you a story, once upon a time stamina builds ruled tamriel but ZOS didn't like it and they nerfed stamina as soon as it was buffed, it was short lived.

you are joking right.... stamina

stamblade. stamplar, stam dk, stam warden, magplar healer, magblade bomber, < thats a COMPLETE list of what is playable in pvp

my bad forgot stam sorc spamming dizzying swing and snipe build < again both stam

Playable? Sure but where is top tier list? Of course mag builds because it has more variety and stronger synergies. Also who in the right mind would include stamplar as playable? They are lowest tier on all stamina builds for pvp.

Just wondering, we really play the same game? Because I have some doubts.

fred4 · October 2018

BNOC wrote: »

Though, if stam wasn't significantly out performing magicka for group and solo play, we wouldn't be seeing what we are.
Anyway.. that's not what the topic was about and I don't want to derail it, I also don't think we can argue that stamina doesn't have big advantages over magicka, outside of the zerg.

What are we seeing? I, for one, prefer my magblade over my stamblade in solo play. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't think spelling out what makes stamina superior, in your view, will derail this thread. I think it would actually be on point, or can you provide a link where this has been discussed before?

I am really curious what the argument is. Better mobility? Better ability to cope with CC? Better damage (most of my characters have higher spell resist than physical)? Better armor sets for stacking damage (Fury)? Not vulnerable to Negate? 1H+S better than frost staff? Vigor better than Rapid Regen / magicka healing? For CP or no CP?

Just because something is considered meta doesn't mean it's correct. It took people a long time to catch on to 7th Legion, before it was nerfed, for example, or to any number of things.

Again, let me stress, I'm not saying you're wrong, but for anyone who currently plays a lot of magicka, it would be nice knowing what makes stamina perform better, before we jump onto a random stamina build only to find that it doesn't perform, just as a carelessly put together magicka build won't perform.

I certainly disagree with the OPs point about dodge rolling. Magicka has to feel different from stamina, and this is one of the major ways in which it does. Sorcs and light armor users have shields in lieu of dodge rolling. Magblades sustain cloak much better than stamblades. Magplars have to be built tanky, but then they heal. Wardens, in general, have a lot of "on the go" healing (Trellis, animal passive, etc.).

The OP sounds like he is new to magicka or has never really come to grips with it. Either that, or he is such an advanced 1vXer that he heavily relies on rolling, because it scales better with the number of enemies around him.

Kadoin · October 2018

ravenarc wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

ravenarc wrote: »

You do realize that game favors magicka right? Let me tell you a story, once upon a time stamina builds ruled tamriel but ZOS didn't like it and they nerfed stamina as soon as it was buffed, it was short lived.

you are joking right.... stamina

stamblade. stamplar, stam dk, stam warden, magplar healer, magblade bomber, < thats a COMPLETE list of what is playable in pvp

my bad forgot stam sorc spamming dizzying swing and snipe build < again both stam

Playable? Sure but where is top tier list? Of course mag builds because it has more variety and stronger synergies. Also who in the right mind would include stamplar as playable? They are lowest tier on all stamina builds for pvp.

You forgot to mark your sarcasm...

Amdar_Godkiller · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

ravenarc wrote: »

You do realize that game favors magicka right? Let me tell you a story, once upon a time stamina builds ruled tamriel but ZOS didn't like it and they nerfed stamina as soon as it was buffed, it was short lived.

you are joking right.... stamina

stamblade. stamplar, stam dk, stam warden, magplar healer, magblade bomber, < thats a COMPLETE list of what is playable in pvp

my bad forgot stam sorc spamming dizzying swing and snipe build < again both stam

mag sorc is still the top dog in pvp by a large margin. this is for solo cyrodil, imp city, bgs, and group play. both stam and mag nightblade are next, with mag dk not far behind.

Thrasher91604 · October 2018

Lol! What have you been smoking?

bardx86 · October 2018

Peekachu99 wrote: »

It’s almost as if Tristat glyphs don’t exist for half the people in this conversation. If you’re going to successfully PVP you need at least some resources for stam, period. It’s called opportunity cost and it’s to balance against the many, many benefits Mag users have. There’s also next to no stamina abilities that can stack max stam as much as you can stack max mag—another benefit being ignored. Sure you could say the same about weapon damage, except that’s only half as good as you’re not increasing your overall pool, just your output.

How much magicka is your build required to have to survive?

Rikumaru · October 2018

Dunno about you but playing a magicka setup works perfectly fine in BGs. The only problem I see with magicka setups is the fact they are perma snared / rooted in open world which is why you see the majority of the PvPers go stamina setups for solo open world PvP. Still it doesn't mean going magicka is an automatic loss in open world.

Perwulf · October 2018

Rikumaru wrote: »

Dunno about you but playing a magicka setup works perfectly fine in BGs. The only problem I see with magicka setups is the fact they are perma snared / rooted in open world which is why you see the majority of the PvPers go stamina setups for solo open world PvP. Still it doesn't mean going magicka is an automatic loss in open world.

This is an ironic moment of "You did this to yourselves."

Magicka builds has the most access on rooting abilities while stamina builds only have one, bombard. Magicka also has the most access in a more efficient purging abilities. These are the reasons why magicka is still way superior and has more variety & syngergy on builds but I guess people just QQ because x killed me, they must be nerfed.

Nerouyn · October 2018

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

As a stamina player i'd love to have access to an on demand heal or shield that will cover half my hp. I'd also like to not run out of magicka after 2 just cleanses. And i'd certainly love if we could have some build variety instead of being forced to pick the same lame weapon skills no matter what class you play.

Did you just really go there?

Magicka players have ONE damage weapon. Stamina have FOUR, plus werewolf.

Beyond destruction staves there's just soul trap, entropy, fire rune, imbue weapon and if you're into that sort of thing, vampire's drain essence.

And some classes don't have many magicka damage abilities either. Wardens have four - giving them a grand total of 12 damage abilities to choose from.