Revitalizing Magicka players in PvP

Matthew_Galvanus · October 2018

Outside of the nerfs that come in each patch that slowly erode any viability that magplayers have in PvP there is one serious issue that has been brought up time and again, but nothing is ever done about it. Namely it is Magicka players being forced to expend stamina for things like blocking or dodge rolling. One of the core aspects of magicka based abilities is that their damage scales based on your maximum magicka, which means a majority of builds look to add as much to our magic resource pool as possible, what this also means is that we end up neglecting stamina because you can't have the best of both worlds.

The problem with locking block and dodge to stamina is that magicka players are *always* going to have an inherent disadvantage because one or two rolls completely drains the stamina bar, which means the next time a mag players gets locked by CC, that is effectively a death sentence because they can no longer escape via dodge rolling or breaking free.

the simplest solution to this problem would be to change evasion mechanics so that they drain whichever resource (Magicka or Stamina) has the highest base, it's not exactly a new concept because they already have mechanics like this for abilities and gear sets. It'd be a small change that would make magicka players feel and play a lot better in PvP.

Matthew_Galvanus · October 2018

I've never understood the logic of magicka users being required to be completely incapable of saving themselves.

idk · October 2018

Have you tested the shield changes in PvP on the PTS?

Matthew_Galvanus · October 2018

idk wrote: »

Have you tested the shield changes in PvP on the PTS?

this thread isn't about the changes to shielding on the PTS, this is about changing the way blocking, evading, and breaking free works for magicka builds so they don't have to eat dirt every time they get touched by some CC because they can't evade it more than once before being pile-driven

ScruffyWhiskers · October 2018

How about a magic morph of vigor? It would be nice to not be forced to run a resto staff on the back bar.

idk · October 2018

Okay, So you are talking about how the game ahs been for awhile. When I read that we are being forced to do block, etc, I took it as the shields were being nerfed. Obviously I read into it.

I would suggest not using the term for a buff in the game as well. Your use of evasion might be confusing since it is not the same as it is in game. Especially on the PTS.

To your point. I have been fine on my mag characters all along. I do put CP points into lowering cost, but that is probably common since it is so obvious. Beyond that, no worries.

MaxJrFTW · October 2018

As a stamina player i'd love to have access to an on demand heal or shield that will cover half my hp. I'd also like to not run out of magicka after 2 just cleanses. And i'd certainly love if we could have some build variety instead of being forced to pick the same lame weapon skills no matter what class you play.

Seriously what a worthless thread. Stamina gives up more than magicka does in order to just break free, sprint, and roll more often.

Matthew_Galvanus · October 2018

idk wrote: »

Okay, So you are talking about how the game ahs been for awhile. When I read that we are being forced to do block, etc, I took it as the shields were being nerfed. Obviously I read into it.

I would suggest not using the term for a buff in the game as well. Your use of evasion might be confusing since it is not the same as it is in game. Especially on the PTS.

To your point. I have been fine on my mag characters all along. I do put CP points into lowering cost, but that is probably common since it is so obvious. Beyond that, no worries.

then you're one of the few who hasnt had to sit through one frustrating match on battlegrounds after another, where 9/10 of all the players are stamina based classes who slide their sword through your spine and wrench it out before you can't get away from them. or when in Cyrodiil when you have zergs who are impossible to escape from.

Matthew_Galvanus · October 2018

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

As a stamina player i'd love to have access to an on demand heal or shield that will cover half my hp. I'd also like to not run out of magicka after 2 just cleanses. And i'd certainly love if we could have some build variety instead of being forced to pick the same lame weapon skills no matter what class you play.

Seriously what a worthless thread. Stamina gives up more than magicka does in order to just break free, sprint, and roll more often.

right because it's soooo hard for you when your heavy attacks restore a portion of your stamina, not to mention your potions which also restore stamina and provide additional buffs for the duration. poor you.

MaxJrFTW · October 2018

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

As a stamina player i'd love to have access to an on demand heal or shield that will cover half my hp. I'd also like to not run out of magicka after 2 just cleanses. And i'd certainly love if we could have some build variety instead of being forced to pick the same lame weapon skills no matter what class you play.

Seriously what a worthless thread. Stamina gives up more than magicka does in order to just break free, sprint, and roll more often.

right because it's soooo hard for you when your heavy attacks restore a portion of your stamina, not to mention your potions which also restore stamina and provide additional buffs for the duration. poor you.

Sorry, i didn't realize heavy attacking and potions were exclusive to stamina...

You know what's actually exclusive to magicka? Most of the abilities in the game.

Vapirko · October 2018

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

As a stamina player i'd love to have access to an on demand heal or shield that will cover half my hp. I'd also like to not run out of magicka after 2 just cleanses. And i'd certainly love if we could have some build variety instead of being forced to pick the same lame weapon skills no matter what class you play.

Seriously what a worthless thread. Stamina gives up more than magicka does in order to just break free, sprint, and roll more often.

right because it's soooo hard for you when your heavy attacks restore a portion of your stamina, not to mention your potions which also restore stamina and provide additional buffs for the duration. poor you.

Magicka players can use stamina potions. Tri pots work quite well. Playing as an argonian and using tri pots works very very well.

mattaeus01b16_ESO · October 2018

I love my magsorc.... but, his dps, compared to the stam version, is very noticeable. But I do have survivability. I have opted to use infused + Tristats on the main pieces of gear, and a monter helm set that helps with other stats, other then crit/dmg/max magicka. Do i do trials with this build? HELL NO! Unless they are normal... I want to say that I will continue to play my sorc as is after this patch, but I just dont know.

idk · October 2018

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Okay, So you are talking about how the game ahs been for awhile. When I read that we are being forced to do block, etc, I took it as the shields were being nerfed. Obviously I read into it.

I would suggest not using the term for a buff in the game as well. Your use of evasion might be confusing since it is not the same as it is in game. Especially on the PTS.

To your point. I have been fine on my mag characters all along. I do put CP points into lowering cost, but that is probably common since it is so obvious. Beyond that, no worries.

then you're one of the few who hasnt had to sit through one frustrating match on battlegrounds after another, where 9/10 of all the players are stamina based classes who slide their sword through your spine and wrench it out before you can't get away from them. or when in Cyrodiil when you have zergs who are impossible to escape from.

Besides the overly dramatic response, learn to use your skills.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · October 2018

@ScruffyWhiskers oh yeah and then how about of stamina morphs for all resto staff skills? and since we are at it why not some stamina morphs for shields?

Katahdin · October 2018

The word "tradeoff" comes to mind

I'd love a stam burst heal, stam shield/ward.

As a mag character, I think it's a benefit that your off resource is what is used to block, dodge etc. It leaves your main resource pool for damage and heals. It's actually a liability on a stam character that can't stack 45K+ of stam unlike mag players running with 45K+ mag pools.

TheYKcid · October 2018

Magicka has tons of options for stam sustain that do not compromise your primary resource. Tripots and argo as previously mentioned, as well as Amberplasm, have absolutely huge contributions. Additionally, mag has other mechanics to anticipate/recover from burst (shields, and big burst healing in the case of magplars), meaning you have a reduced need to expend stamina to survive.

I'm absolutely serious when I say stam management is easier on my Magsorc than my Stamplar (who is a Redguard, no less!).

The mechanics of mag builds were fine imo, they just needed some buffs to the numbers. And we could've been in a decent spot since the mobility tools of stam, their biggest advantage, are being brought in-line during Murkmire. Except ZOS went full *** and nerfed mobility across the board, shields, and buffed bleeds while they were at it.

carlos424 · October 2018

Katahdin wrote: »

The word "tradeoff" comes to mind

I'd love a stam burst heal, stam shield/ward.

As a mag character, I think it's a benefit that your off resource is what is used to block, dodge etc. It leaves your main resource pool for damage and heals. It's actually a liability on a stam character that can't stack 45K+ of stam unlike mag players running with 45K+ mag pools.

That would work, except that sorcs have no heals, just shields, ummmm sorta.

MaleAmazon · October 2018

That would work, except that sorcs have no heals, just shields, ummmm sorta.

Sorcs have no heals? Apart from the pet heal which I refuse to use (since I dislike the whole pet concept), how about:

Dark exchange
Negate
Blood magic passive
Critical surge
Drain essence (if vampire)
Meditate
Entropy
The whole bloody restoration staff skill line

And for what it´s worth, the haunting curse bangs are basically like a 100 bpm snare drum on me in PvP so I´d say magsorcs are viable.

Peace

[Edit to remove bait]

ScruffyWhiskers · October 2018

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

@ScruffyWhiskers oh yeah and then how about of stamina morphs for all resto staff skills? and since we are at it why not some stamina morphs for shields?

You want to shake a stick around? Have at it. Of course comparing an alliance skill to a weapon skill is sort of apples and oranges. Stam already has the majority of the weapon lines. But go ahead and complain about how great staves are I guess.

susmitds · October 2018

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

@ScruffyWhiskers oh yeah and then how about of stamina morphs for all resto staff skills? and since we are at it why not some stamina morphs for shields?

You want to shake a stick around? Have at it. Of course comparing an alliance skill to a weapon skill is sort of apples and oranges. Stam already has the majority of the weapon lines. But go ahead and complain about how great staves are I guess.

Stam has majority of the weapon skills, which is balanced by the fact that mag has majority of the class skills.

Sygil05 · October 2018

I think this is an area that works fine and doesn't really need any changes, and I play a magsorc as my main (and practically only character). It forces us mag users to consider stamina and make concessions to get our stamina up to a level that won't get us killed the first time someone uses a CC on us while giving our opponents an opportunity to get past our defense and/or heals.

Ruckly · October 2018

Magicka toons have the advantage of using heavy armor to greater effect because of the amount of magicka a healing staff heavy attack pulls in. The bow heavy attack is not a good source of stamina regen. And a magicka toon can block with an ice staff if they want to.

A magicka toon does only get 2 dodge rolls but that is only relevant if you make a dodge roll build. More than 2 dodge rolls on a stamina toon causes stamina damage.

Beyond that you have to do a class by class breakdown since magicka toons use more class skills typically.

Magicka nightblade: Perpetual stealth not much need of a dodge roll.

Magicka templar: Heal spam cleanse spam and restoring focus that makes your damage resistance go through the roof.

Magicka sorcerer: Shields, bolt escape, defensive rune gives sorc mobility on par with stamina else people wouldn't complain about sorcs

Magicka warden: This might be an exception. The druid class seems more popular stamina.

Magicka dragonknight: Vampire killer? Reflective scales take flight ult generator? Cinder storm aoe heal? I dunno.

If magicka toons do have a somewhat universal problem it is the extended cast times and skill bar locks in cyrodill because of lag or whatever causes it. If you need your healing bar and are stuck on your offensive bar all you can do is watch everyone on your team infront of you hit the dirt. And if you are stuck on your healing bar and want to fire your offensive ult and your spike to push you are out of luck. And cast times that go from 1.5 seconds to 5 seconds make it near impossible to hit anything before it gets out ranged or LoSed. On the other hand most stamina skills are instant cast.

LonePirate · October 2018

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Seriously what a worthless thread. Stamina gives up more than magicka does in order to just break free, sprint, and roll more often.

So you’re saying we should have some sympathy for the vast majority of gankers, tower/resource farmers, small group players, those experts in PVRock/PVTree and roughly 90% of BG players simply because Stamina players give up more than Magicka players? All of these people are nobly sacrificing Best in Class builds in favor of Stamina builds due to the challenge they offer? Give me a break!

Those players are almost all Stamina players because Stamina offers more damage, more movement, better group heals and an easier experience in PVP. Anybody who says otherwise is lying.

Alaztor91 · October 2018

Break Free should imo cost half of it's current amount as stamina and the other half as magicka, assuming that ZOS idea of defense mechanics is damage shields for light armor, dodge for medium armor and block for heavy armor.

Thrasher91604 · October 2018

Yes there are a lot of liars posting here about how well majicka characters are situated. Like a bunch of fake Russian accounts on facebook.

Jeremy · October 2018

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

Outside of the nerfs that come in each patch that slowly erode any viability that magplayers have in PvP there is one serious issue that has been brought up time and again, but nothing is ever done about it. Namely it is Magicka players being forced to expend stamina for things like blocking or dodge rolling. One of the core aspects of magicka based abilities is that their damage scales based on your maximum magicka, which means a majority of builds look to add as much to our magic resource pool as possible, what this also means is that we end up neglecting stamina because you can't have the best of both worlds.

The problem with locking block and dodge to stamina is that magicka players are *always* going to have an inherent disadvantage because one or two rolls completely drains the stamina bar, which means the next time a mag players gets locked by CC, that is effectively a death sentence because they can no longer escape via dodge rolling or breaking free.

the simplest solution to this problem would be to change evasion mechanics so that they drain whichever resource (Magicka or Stamina) has the highest base, it's not exactly a new concept because they already have mechanics like this for abilities and gear sets. It'd be a small change that would make magicka players feel and play a lot better in PvP.

This isn't such a bad idea. Even for PvE it would be nice in terms of game play.

The only issue I see with it is it would devalue Stamina almost entirely for Magicka builds.

Frankly I think they should just return to the base game design and bring back the old unmovable/unstoppable skill which allowed Magicka classes to spend their Stamina on an upkeep skill that protected them from cc/stun effects. That was a good solution and allowed magicka builds to effectively use what little stamina they had to thwart loss of control effects at the cost of a skill slot.

Vandril · October 2018

I'm by no means an ESO PvP veteran, but I've recently been experimenting a lot with using a full set of Medium armor on my Magicka PvP builds. I've had some surprisingly decent results thus far. I sacrifice a 5-set bonus to use Pelinal's Aptitude and stack Weapon Power and Magicka instead of Spellpower.

What this gets me is:

3698 More Resistances (~6% Mitigation)
+28% Stamina Recovery
Better and Cheaper Sneak
Faster Sprint
Cheaper Dodge Roll
More Spell Power

In addition, this opens up using some otherwise Stamina-specific skills as a Magicka build. For example: since I'm stacking Weapon Damage, I've been using a 2-H Weapon and the Forward Momentum/Rally skill on my backbar for Greater Brutality and a set-and-forget minor HoT; using all Medium armor means I have access to Shuffle, if I feel the need for it; and having high Weapon Damage means I can use Vigor reasonably well if I want a Stamina heal.

There's some pretty hefty trade offs for this, though. What I lose is:

A single gear set (since you MUST use Pelinal's)
+28% Magicka Recovery
14% Reduced Magicka Costs
2541 Spell Resistance (~4% Mitigation; overcome by Medium's higher Armor though)
2191 Spell Critical (+10% Chance)
4884 Spell Penetration (~7% Reduced Enemy Mitigation)

In addition, I lose the ability to use Annulment. Some build complications arise, as well. With Spell Damage as a useless stat: any set that increases Spell Damage at any point in its set bonuses is counterproductive unless it also increases Weapon Damage at the same point; and any Major Sorcery is useless, as you must have a source of Major Brutality. But more than anything else, the above mentioned loss of a gear set in order to use Pelinal's is counter to the current proc set meta.

Ultimately, a "Medium Magicka" build shifts the dynamics of Magicka gameplay in very interesting ways. I've found myself able to dodge very often, which feels really, really good as a Magicka build. I'm able to make or sustain distance with the increased Sprint speed, too. And while minimal, the increased Stamina Recovery has increased how freely I can Break Free to a noticeable extent. I feel less Stamina starved and more mobile overall, despite my still-low Stamina pool (~14k with Tri-stat food). While I am low on Spell Crit and have almost no Spell Penetration, the higher Spell Power I have from stacking Weapon Power w/ Pelinal's more or less evens out that disadvantage while also making my Magicka-based heals even stronger than usual. The biggest detriment I've noticed is that my offensive sustain is severely reduced. The loss of the Magicka Recovery, Magicka cost reductions, and some Max Magicka from sets that aren't Pelinal's leaves me out of Magicka noticeably quicker. To counter this, I've needed to have some sort of resource recovery on my bars - usually the Psijic line's Meditation skill.

I certainly doubt a build like this would ever become meta, but I've had a lot of fun toying around with it.

RedRook · October 2018

Heh. I just respecced one of my magicka characters to stam a few days ago, and it's amazing to be able to break free as many times as I need to. The only time I get stun locked is if the double-CC bug happens. Imagine it! Never again watching your character helplessly kneeling while you get murdered by the stambois!

This discussion never goes well though. Somehow all magicka specs are sorcs with ward and simultaneously templars with ritual and a burst heal, and none of them should be dodge rolling or breaking free more than twice, they already have it so easy, etc.

It's just a weird coincidence that BGs are packed with stamina specs and argonian magplars. Nothing to see here, move along.

Mayrael · October 2018

Yeah right... Because magicka is so easy to play most of the PvP is dominated by stamina #logic. Like 7k weapon damage 30k hp 30k ressists, bleed + spin2win builds was not the thing, now with major protection on demand even more of a cheese, while magicka asks for not being CC locked most of the time and it's game breaking? Lol.

Nobody sees any issues with builds that can have stats I mentioned above, ignoring opponents ressistances, on top of that being able to buff them selves with just one skill with 25% aoe damage reduction + 30% damage mitigation + 30% movement speed + nice aoe dot? LOL. I hope everyone will run builds like this: ravager + clever alchemist back bared + balrogh + perfect spectral cloak on front. Here have it and let's cancer spread, let's make Tamriel burn bleed!

hero2zer0 · October 2018

Honestly? They should just remove all stamina heals, so all healing comes from magicka costing skills, while the potency of the heal comes only from spell / weapon damage (whichever is higher). Seems fair considering block and dodge cost stam. So stam chars would actually think about their mag pool the same way mag chars think about their stam!

Edit: exclusing skills that heal when doing damage like jabs and blood craze and such.

leepalmer95 · October 2018

If magicka is so bad why are like half of zergs magplars?