Waffennacht wrote: »

He's saying, like everyone that's experienced in PvP, that sorc is not and hasn't been OP for years.

He's saying that players that don't know what counters are claim Shields are OP.

He's saying that most people complain about Sorcs even though it's a L2P issue.

I mean I caught on right away

*She’s.

But yes, this is the point I’m trying to make. Sorcs get SO much disproportionate hate from people who do not know how to PVP, when there are plenty of skills out there that are just as “overpowered” as shields, wrath, etc. It is so frustrating that sorcs’ primary means of defence is going to be gutted next patch for literally no good reason, while other strong skills remain untouched. Guess I’ll just play mag NB/stam DK/stamden and utterly annihilate people who can’t be bothered to improve until they take to the forums and cry for nerfs.

Aurielle wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

But if you are trying to justify mag NB being better killstealerino because of cloack, this thread is as useful as comparing who does the kill stealing best: spin2win vs mage's wrath vs impale.

I mean, sure, pick up your favorite, but at the end none of this matters.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No. What I’m pointing out is that every class (using NB as an example) has several strengths and can easily outperform other players in the right hands. There’s only one class at the moment, however, that is repeatedly being nerfed and accused of being “OP.”

Every single class can perform very well in correct hands, and that's actually something what is causing so many nerf requests:
Worse players are beaten by better players and due people being unable to accept that better players actually exists, they see other classes overperforming and these same players comes to request nerfs on forums and spamming those threads from doors and windows. Many people are unable to admit that they have something to improve and they are not as flawless as they think.

I understand that you don't like what's going to happen to shields and neither does many other light armor users who have to deal with the same issue. However using battleground scores and telling how you are "cherrypicking people" with execute is not way to go. All what we could do here is comparing how "lack of skill" Mage's Wrath delayed execute from a distance is compared to picking kills with impale or spinning around with steel tornado. Outcome is the same: It would be still useless.
If you want to be helpful, try to provide something constructive instead.

Fiktius wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

But if you are trying to justify mag NB being better killstealerino because of cloack, this thread is as useful as comparing who does the kill stealing best: spin2win vs mage's wrath vs impale.

I mean, sure, pick up your favorite, but at the end none of this matters.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No. What I’m pointing out is that every class (using NB as an example) has several strengths and can easily outperform other players in the right hands. There’s only one class at the moment, however, that is repeatedly being nerfed and accused of being “OP.”

Every single class can perform very well in correct hands, and that's actually something what is causing so many nerf requests:
Worse players are beaten by better players and due people being unable to accept that better players actually exists, they see other classes overperforming and these same players comes to request nerfs on forums and spamming those threads from doors and windows. Many people are unable to admit that they have something to improve and they are not as flawless as they think.

I understand that you don't like what's going to happen to shields and neither does many other light armor users who have to deal with the same issue. However using battleground scores and telling how you are "cherrypicking people" with execute is not way to go. All what we could do here is comparing how "lack of skill" Mage's Wrath delayed execute from a distance is compared to picking skills with impale or spinning around with steel tornado. Outcome is the same: It would be still useless.
If you want to be helpful, try to provide something constructive instead.

My purpose in posting those screen caps was not to demonstrate OP executes. The point is that we often see people complaining about how shields (a defensive ability) make it possible to rack up large number of kills with few deaths. People insist that the shield nerf is justified because sorcs should not be able to have excellent offensive capabilities as well as excellebt defensive capabilities.

Cloak is an excellent defensive ability that NBs use in conjunction with excellent offensive abilities — and, I would argue, provides BETTER defence compared to shield stacking. Why is cloak not on the chopping block along with shields? Why is there continued insistence that sorcs are the most OP?

The anti sorc bias in these forums is unreal.

Aurielle wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

But if you are trying to justify mag NB being better killstealerino because of cloack, this thread is as useful as comparing who does the kill stealing best: spin2win vs mage's wrath vs impale.

I mean, sure, pick up your favorite, but at the end none of this matters.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No. What I’m pointing out is that every class (using NB as an example) has several strengths and can easily outperform other players in the right hands. There’s only one class at the moment, however, that is repeatedly being nerfed and accused of being “OP.”

Every single class can perform very well in correct hands, and that's actually something what is causing so many nerf requests:
Worse players are beaten by better players and due people being unable to accept that better players actually exists, they see other classes overperforming and these same players comes to request nerfs on forums and spamming those threads from doors and windows. Many people are unable to admit that they have something to improve and they are not as flawless as they think.

I understand that you don't like what's going to happen to shields and neither does many other light armor users who have to deal with the same issue. However using battleground scores and telling how you are "cherrypicking people" with execute is not way to go. All what we could do here is comparing how "lack of skill" Mage's Wrath delayed execute from a distance is compared to picking skills with impale or spinning around with steel tornado. Outcome is the same: It would be still useless.
If you want to be helpful, try to provide something constructive instead.

My purpose in posting those screen caps was not to demonstrate OP executes. The point is that we often see people complaining about how shields (a defensive ability) make it possible to rack up large number of kills with few deaths. People insist that the shield nerf is justified because sorcs should not be able to have excellent offensive capabilities as well as excellebt defensive capabilities.

Cloak is an excellent defensive ability that NBs use in conjunction with excellent offensive abilities — and, I would argue, provides BETTER defence compared to shield stacking. Why is cloak not on the chopping block along with shields? Why there continued insistence that sorcs are the most OP?

The anti sorc bias in these forums is unreal.

Like mentioned earlier, this shield change was not based on PvP only. A lot of these shield change reasoning were based on PvE and how "some PvE healers feels themselves useless, thanks to strong shields."
However cloack is not that useful in PvE end game as far as I know.
(By this I mean vet trials and such.Also if someone wants to prove me wrong, go ahead. I'm not PvE expert anyways. :'D )
Instead of judging shield change from PvP perspective only, trying to view these changes from more wider, objective view could help.

However those screenshots you provided and background story about cherry picking and kill stealing does not help much to let us know what really happened there. Based on the information you provided us, you were kill stealing there, but that's pretty much it. You did not provide any kind of video to let us to see what kind of team combination you had, what kind of teamplay your team had, what kind of teams enemies had and etc. Really, those screenshots does not help nor prove anything. People could do the same as you and post screenshots of higher kills than you with different classes, so at the end even higher kill count as your NB than your Sorc does not help to push your point through.

Aurielle wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

But if you are trying to justify mag NB being better killstealerino because of cloack, this thread is as useful as comparing who does the kill stealing best: spin2win vs mage's wrath vs impale.

I mean, sure, pick up your favorite, but at the end none of this matters.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No. What I’m pointing out is that every class (using NB as an example) has several strengths and can easily outperform other players in the right hands. There’s only one class at the moment, however, that is repeatedly being nerfed and accused of being “OP.”

Every single class can perform very well in correct hands, and that's actually something what is causing so many nerf requests:
Worse players are beaten by better players and due people being unable to accept that better players actually exists, they see other classes overperforming and these same players comes to request nerfs on forums and spamming those threads from doors and windows. Many people are unable to admit that they have something to improve and they are not as flawless as they think.

I understand that you don't like what's going to happen to shields and neither does many other light armor users who have to deal with the same issue. However using battleground scores and telling how you are "cherrypicking people" with execute is not way to go. All what we could do here is comparing how "lack of skill" Mage's Wrath delayed execute from a distance is compared to picking skills with impale or spinning around with steel tornado. Outcome is the same: It would be still useless.
If you want to be helpful, try to provide something constructive instead.

My purpose in posting those screen caps was not to demonstrate OP executes. The point is that we often see people complaining about how shields (a defensive ability) make it possible to rack up large number of kills with few deaths. People insist that the shield nerf is justified because sorcs should not be able to have excellent offensive capabilities as well as excellebt defensive capabilities.

Cloak is an excellent defensive ability that NBs use in conjunction with excellent offensive abilities — and, I would argue, provides BETTER defence compared to shield stacking. Why is cloak not on the chopping block along with shields? Why there continued insistence that sorcs are the most OP?

The anti sorc bias in these forums is unreal.

Like mentioned earlier, this shield change was not based on PvP only. A lot of these shield change reasoning were based on PvE and how "PvE healers feels themselves useless, thanks to strong shields."
However cloack is not that useful in PvE end game as far as I know. (Vet trials and such.)
Instead of judging shield change from PvP perspective only, trying to view these changes from more wider, objective view could help.

However those screenshots you provided and background story about cherry picking and kill stealing does not help much to let us know what really happened there. Based on the information you provided us, you were kill stealing there, but that's pretty much it. You did not provide any kind of video to let us to see what kind of team combination you had, what kind of teamplay your team had, what kind of teams enemies had and etc. Really, those screenshots does not help nor prove anything.

Sigh.

It wasn’t JUST killstealing. I did what almost all mag NBs do — I engaged, spammed cloak defensively when the opposing players tried to kill me, buffed back to full health, came out of stealth and killed them. I also lazily threw out some Impales/Spectral Bows when I saw people at low health.

Substitute “shields” for cloak. Substitute “wrath” for “impale.” The dreaded OP shield-stacking sorc with its lazy kill stealing! But NBs couldn’t POSSIBLY deserve a defensive nerf, right? No, only sorcs are not allowed to be excellent at defence as well as offence. Sorcs deserve that exponentially increased cost to streak. Sorcs deserve having their primary shield nerfed to scale off health rather than their primary stat. Don’t dare touch cloak, though!

If you like, I’ll post a video tomorrow once I’ve had some sleep. Working a night shift tonight.

Cloak is a primarily reactive defense, while shield is both preemptive and reactive defense. It was the main reason, shields were nerfed, as ZoS confirmed.

susmitds wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

But if you are trying to justify mag NB being better killstealerino because of cloack, this thread is as useful as comparing who does the kill stealing best: spin2win vs mage's wrath vs impale.

I mean, sure, pick up your favorite, but at the end none of this matters.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No. What I’m pointing out is that every class (using NB as an example) has several strengths and can easily outperform other players in the right hands. There’s only one class at the moment, however, that is repeatedly being nerfed and accused of being “OP.”

Every single class can perform very well in correct hands, and that's actually something what is causing so many nerf requests:
Worse players are beaten by better players and due people being unable to accept that better players actually exists, they see other classes overperforming and these same players comes to request nerfs on forums and spamming those threads from doors and windows. Many people are unable to admit that they have something to improve and they are not as flawless as they think.

I understand that you don't like what's going to happen to shields and neither does many other light armor users who have to deal with the same issue. However using battleground scores and telling how you are "cherrypicking people" with execute is not way to go. All what we could do here is comparing how "lack of skill" Mage's Wrath delayed execute from a distance is compared to picking skills with impale or spinning around with steel tornado. Outcome is the same: It would be still useless.
If you want to be helpful, try to provide something constructive instead.

My purpose in posting those screen caps was not to demonstrate OP executes. The point is that we often see people complaining about how shields (a defensive ability) make it possible to rack up large number of kills with few deaths. People insist that the shield nerf is justified because sorcs should not be able to have excellent offensive capabilities as well as excellebt defensive capabilities.

Cloak is an excellent defensive ability that NBs use in conjunction with excellent offensive abilities — and, I would argue, provides BETTER defence compared to shield stacking. Why is cloak not on the chopping block along with shields? Why there continued insistence that sorcs are the most OP?

The anti sorc bias in these forums is unreal.

Like mentioned earlier, this shield change was not based on PvP only. A lot of these shield change reasoning were based on PvE and how "PvE healers feels themselves useless, thanks to strong shields."
However cloack is not that useful in PvE end game as far as I know. (Vet trials and such.)
Instead of judging shield change from PvP perspective only, trying to view these changes from more wider, objective view could help.

However those screenshots you provided and background story about cherry picking and kill stealing does not help much to let us know what really happened there. Based on the information you provided us, you were kill stealing there, but that's pretty much it. You did not provide any kind of video to let us to see what kind of team combination you had, what kind of teamplay your team had, what kind of teams enemies had and etc. Really, those screenshots does not help nor prove anything.

Sigh.

It wasn’t JUST killstealing. I did what almost all mag NBs do — I engaged, spammed cloak defensively when the opposing players tried to kill me, buffed back to full health, came out of stealth and killed them. I also lazily threw out some Impales/Spectral Bows when I saw people at low health.

Substitute “shields” for cloak. Substitute “wrath” for “impale.” The dreaded OP shield-stacking sorc with its lazy kill stealing! But NBs couldn’t POSSIBLY deserve a defensive nerf, right? No, only sorcs are not allowed to be excellent at defence as well as offence. Sorcs deserve that exponentially increased cost to streak. Sorcs deserve having their primary shield nerfed to scale off health rather than their primary stat. Don’t dare touch cloak, though!

If you like, I’ll post a video tomorrow once I’ve had some sleep. Working a night shift tonight.

Cloak is a primarily reactive defense, while shield is both preemptive and reactive defense. It was the main reason, shields were nerfed, as ZoS confirmed.

Cloak is also both preemptive and reactive... As a NB, I can choose to go in staff ablazing and cloak away at the first sign of trouble (reactive), or I can stealth up and spam cloak to prevent proximity-based detection until the moment is right and steal a kill (preemptive).

Again, the anti sorc bias is unreal.

Knootewoot wrote: »

Was this a one time match, or do you have more data that this.

What are the numbers if you do 10 sorc matches and 10 NB?

Really, if i role a red dice and throw 3 and then throw a white dice and throw a 6 doesn't mean the white dice borked. No, i need to throw them lots of times to get data to work with.

And maybe you just suck playing Sorc. Another variable.

LOL at all of this.

By your hostility, I take it you don’t think that cloak is a powerful defensive ability that can be used offensively, much as sorc shield stacking was and will be until Nerfmire?

Aurielle wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

Was this a one time match, or do you have more data that this.

What are the numbers if you do 10 sorc matches and 10 NB?

Really, if i role a red dice and throw 3 and then throw a white dice and throw a 6 doesn't mean the white dice borked. No, i need to throw them lots of times to get data to work with.

And maybe you just suck playing Sorc. Another variable.

LOL at all of this.

By your hostility, I take it you don’t think that cloak is a powerful defensive ability that can be used offensively, much as sorc shield stacking was and will be until Nerfmire?

Not being hostile, just curious.

susmitds wrote: »

OK, this is going no where.

• Firstly, showing two screenshots of two BG result is no use. It is not the map, MMR, opponents, allies, etc. With zero correlation between the samples, they are no where near comparable. At the same time, 2 is very small a sample for any valid balancing decision. Minimum accepted sample size for any statistical analysis is usually at least 1000.
• Next, you equalize Cloak and Shields. Cloak is reactive in design, while Shield is preemptive and reactive. You claim, Cloak is preemptive as well, which is invalid as preemptive defense, by definition, means that it is possible to apply it before it's meant to used, allowing the user to focus on offense, while keeping defense up. It does not work that way for Cloak as dealing damage breaks Cloak, so you can't go into offense, while actively being in the effects of Cloak. However shields work exactly the way preemptive defense are defined, as you can throw up a shield as part of your offensive rotation and continue on the offensive, adjusting as the situation asks for it. Every good sorc, stacks shields part of their rota.
• Then, you claim that shields are the only defense mechanic nerfed. Well, that is wrong as well, shield sizes in PvP remain effectively the same, especially in noCP, while only being crittable and having resistance. This is a nerf, if you have lesser than 18k resistance, a buff if you have more than 20k resistance, taking into account average crit. and penetration values. Dodge got a far more definitive nerf, losing as much as 40% of its I-frames and as well, passive dodge.

Your sorc-centric bias is obvious after your various posts. Dev already readjusted shields to please majority of the players. It would be foolish to think that ZOS would relent further.

1. Okay. Where are the 1000+ screenshots and videos proving that sorc shield stacking is overpowered, then? It goes both ways, bud. People often post screenshots like the one I posted for my NB to prove that sorcs are OP and need to be nerfed to the ground, and are met with a *** of agrees.

2. Cloak is absolutely preemptive. You’re telling me you’ve never fought a NB that spams cloak while actively fighting to make it harder for you to target them, and to guarantee a crit strike on a big hitting skill? Stop trying to pull the wool over our eyes — we know the difference.

3. The shield nerf is only a buff to sorcs if they start wearing heavy armour. Sorcs in heavy armour hit like wet pool noodles, so really, it’s only a buff to sorc tanks. Yes, other defensive abilities are also getting nerfed, but sorc is the only class that is getting completely gutted defensively. Other classes still have multiple options that provide excellent survivability without adversely affecting offensive capabilities.

Aurielle wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

OK, this is going no where.

• Firstly, showing two screenshots of two BG result is no use. It is not the map, MMR, opponents, allies, etc. With zero correlation between the samples, they are no where near comparable. At the same time, 2 is very small a sample for any valid balancing decision. Minimum accepted sample size for any statistical analysis is usually at least 1000.
• Next, you equalize Cloak and Shields. Cloak is reactive in design, while Shield is preemptive and reactive. You claim, Cloak is preemptive as well, which is invalid as preemptive defense, by definition, means that it is possible to apply it before it's meant to used, allowing the user to focus on offense, while keeping defense up. It does not work that way for Cloak as dealing damage breaks Cloak, so you can't go into offense, while actively being in the effects of Cloak. However shields work exactly the way preemptive defense are defined, as you can throw up a shield as part of your offensive rotation and continue on the offensive, adjusting as the situation asks for it. Every good sorc, stacks shields part of their rota.
• Then, you claim that shields are the only defense mechanic nerfed. Well, that is wrong as well, shield sizes in PvP remain effectively the same, especially in noCP, while only being crittable and having resistance. This is a nerf, if you have lesser than 18k resistance, a buff if you have more than 20k resistance, taking into account average crit. and penetration values. Dodge got a far more definitive nerf, losing as much as 40% of its I-frames and as well, passive dodge.

Your sorc-centric bias is obvious after your various posts. Dev already readjusted shields to please majority of the players. It would be foolish to think that ZOS would relent further.

1. Okay. Where are the 1000+ screenshots and videos proving that sorc shield stacking is overpowered, then? It goes both ways, bud. People often post screenshots like the one I posted for my NB to prove that sorcs are OP and need to be nerfed to the ground, and are met with a *** of agrees.

2. Cloak is absolutely preemptive. You’re telling me you’ve never fought a NB that spams cloak while actively fighting to make it harder for you to target them, and to guarantee a crit strike on a big hitting skill? Stop trying to pull the wool over our eyes — we know the difference.

3. The shield nerf is only a buff to sorcs if they start wearing heavy armour. Sorcs in heavy armour hit like wet pool noodles, so really, it’s only a buff to sorc tanks. Yes, other defensive abilities are also getting nerfed, but sorc is the only class that is getting completely gutted defensively. Other classes still have multiple options that provide excellent survivability without adversely affecting offensive capabilities.

1) ZOS decided the nerf and current stats show Sorcs have the highest K/D ratio in the game. Ask any one, who plays BG and they can attest to that. ZOS even confirmed that in Class rep meeting. Screenshots/vids, none of these are stats. Only one with access to real stats is ZOS.
2) I don't define preemptive defense. Look at ZOS's own definition of it.
3) Yeah, you mean sorcs finally have to invest in Defense. Omigawd, the sky is falling. No more 5 well-fitted, 55k magicka, 20k HP builds with 25k uncrittable shield-stacks.

L2p