Stamblade: Hunding's Rage vs Leviathan (crit vs weapon damage)?
ImmortalCX
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Comparing Hunding's rage to Leviathan, they are virtually identical except for the 5pc bonus.
On Hunding's, there is 288 weapon damage
On Leviathan, there is 1857 weapon critical
On my CP450 stamblade, Briarheart and Leviathan equipped, my weapon damage is 2558 unbuffed. I know this is on the low side, however with the Briarheart proc, it goes up another 439 around 2/3rds of the time. If I equip Hundings, weapon damage is 2800+, but crit is lower.
Because Briarheart is a crit-based proc, I assumed that Leviathan is a better match. Its also easier to farm a 5pc Leviathan because of jewelry drops.
Can anyone offer some guidelines for selecting weapon damage over crit, and vice versa? Is there a baseline, unbuffed weapon damage that you need to attain before extra crit becomes useful?
On Hunding's, there is 288 weapon damage
On Leviathan, there is 1857 weapon critical
On my CP450 stamblade, Briarheart and Leviathan equipped, my weapon damage is 2558 unbuffed. I know this is on the low side, however with the Briarheart proc, it goes up another 439 around 2/3rds of the time. If I equip Hundings, weapon damage is 2800+, but crit is lower.
Because Briarheart is a crit-based proc, I assumed that Leviathan is a better match. Its also easier to farm a 5pc Leviathan because of jewelry drops.
Can anyone offer some guidelines for selecting weapon damage over crit, and vice versa? Is there a baseline, unbuffed weapon damage that you need to attain before extra crit becomes useful?
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Jim_Pipp✭✭✭✭✭
✭What is your crit at?
There isn't a simple answer, but most builds would benefit from hundings more because it buffs everything including your crit. The briarheart heal is quite small so don't place too much value on that.
The way I think of it is like a rectangle, crit is the width of the rectangle and damage is the height. Is it the height or width that adds the most to the area of the rectangle? Neither, you need as much as you can of both.#1 tip (Re)check your graphics settings periodically - especially resolution.0 -
ImmortalCX✭✭✭✭✭What is your crit at?
There isn't a simple answer, but most builds would benefit from hundings more because it buffs everything including your crit. The briarheart heal is quite small so don't place too much value on that.
The way I think of it is like a rectangle, crit is the width of the rectangle and damage is the height. Is it the height or width that adds the most to the area of the rectangle? Neither, you need as much as you can of both.
Yes, the rectangle analogy is good, but it doesn't answer the question.
4x4 = 16
5x3 = 15
6x2 = 12
Obviously given 8 units, 4x4 will have the most internal area.
The question is, what is a "square" configuration of crit vs weapon damage?
Based on the exceptional amount of crit on the leviathan (1857), vs the typical amount of weapon damage on Hundings (288), it seems that leviathan would be better *IF* there is enough weapon damage.
Also, Briarheart's proc also adds 439 weapon damage 2/3rds of the time. The heal is not exactly negligible either. It can be felt vs using non heal sets.
Does anyone have an ESO equation or formula for calculating damage?
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ImmortalCX✭✭✭✭✭Forgot to mention, crit is 62% unbuffed, lover mundus.
However, my exact equipment and stats won't change the formula for calculating damage and the relationship between weapon damage and crit. When solving a math problem, the brand of calculator generally doesn't matter.0 -
Danksta✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Assuming this is for PvE, even 50% crit would be more than high enough to basically proc Briarheart off cooldown.
You got Caltrops, Poison Injection, Rearming Trap, Rending Slashes ticking every second and Endless Hail ticking twice a second. So just with your DoTs alone should be enough, then you add in your direct damage skills, damaging enchants, light and heavy attacks with roughly half of your damage critting...
Now I'm not sure which set is better (I'd assume Hunding's) but you won't have any issues keeping good uptime on Briarheart with either of these sets.BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA1 -
Maryal✭✭✭✭✭
✭They are all good armor sets, some are a little more useful in certain situations than others - it depends on who you are fighting, how defensive do you need to be, whether you are in a group or not, are you pvp, if so, are you a ganker, bomber or a brawler type? If pve, it depends on the content, difficulty, etc. There are so many variables -- I would say experiment with different set-ups and find which works best for you.
What looks good on paper or during a test dummy parse may suck big time in actual combat.
Edited by Maryal on October 11, 2018 8:19PM0 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I suggest drop both altogether and farm Vicious Ophidian. It is pretty easy to get from normal trials, which are doable easily at CP450.0 -
ImmortalCX✭✭✭✭✭They are all good armor sets, some are a little more useful in certain situations than others - it depends on who you are fighting, how defensive do you need to be, whether you are in a group or not, are you pvp, if so, are you a ganker, bomber or a brawler type? If pve, it depends on the content, difficulty, etc. There are so many variables -- I would say experiment with different set-ups and find which works best for you.
What looks good on paper or during a test dummy parse may suck big time in actual combat.
I just ran a simple light attack test on the precursor to find out which (if either) is better.
Using constant light attacks and averaging damage over five precursor kills for each set, I compared Leviathan vs Hundings, same enchants.
(Average of five kills)
Hundings = 8532
Leviathan = 9040
8532 / 9040 = 94%
According to this simple test, Leviathan is about 5% better. It should also provide slightly more healing through Briarheart.
I know this isn't a "real world" test, but it eliminates any variables in rotation.
Leviathan!0 -
Maryal✭✭✭✭✭
✭ImmortalCX wrote: »They are all good armor sets, some are a little more useful in certain situations than others - it depends on who you are fighting, how defensive do you need to be, whether you are in a group or not, are you pvp, if so, are you a ganker, bomber or a brawler type? If pve, it depends on the content, difficulty, etc. There are so many variables -- I would say experiment with different set-ups and find which works best for you.
What looks good on paper or during a test dummy parse may suck big time in actual combat.
I just ran a simple light attack test on the precursor to find out which (if either) is better.
Using constant light attacks and averaging damage over five precursor kills for each set, I compared Leviathan vs Hundings, same enchants.
(Average of five kills)
Hundings = 8532
Leviathan = 9040
8532 / 9040 = 94%
According to this simple test, Leviathan is about 5% better. It should also provide slightly more healing through Briarheart.
I know this isn't a "real world" test, but it eliminates any variables in rotation.
Leviathan!
Test dummy parsing doesn't represent actual combat - for a variety of reasons. I'm glad you ran your test, and in vanilla pve content you may have better results as you said. Good luck to you.1 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭A few parses on a 6 m health dummy would give a more accurate picture. Take the average because you can get more and less lucky on Briarheart procs.
My tests found that Briarheart is similar to Hundings, but with the additional heal. The nice thing about Briarheart is you can front bar it.
Leviathan provides a % boost, so the more damage you have the more it amplifies it.
I like the combination of Slimecraw, Leviathan, and Briarheart on a Stamsorc pve solo build.Playing since beta...0 -
Colecovision✭✭✭✭✭
✭I can't seem to beat hundings with liviathan. Being Khajiit might matter, but I don't know how to apply it on paper. My gut says hundings for khajiit and leviathan for redguard.
One plus for Hundings is that it can have the ideal 5/1/1 setup with Heavy chest and light waist.0 -
ImmortalCX✭✭✭✭✭Colecovision wrote: »I can't seem to beat hundings with liviathan. Being Khajiit might matter, but I don't know how to apply it on paper. My gut says hundings for khajiit and leviathan for redguard.
One plus for Hundings is that it can have the ideal 5/1/1 setup with Heavy chest and light waist.
I am redguard. Why do you think leviathan is better for redguard?
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ImmortalCX✭✭✭✭✭A few parses on a 6 m health dummy would give a more accurate picture. Take the average because you can get more and less lucky on Briarheart procs.
My tests found that Briarheart is similar to Hundings, but with the additional heal. The nice thing about Briarheart is you can front bar it.
Leviathan provides a % boost, so the more damage you have the more it amplifies it.
I like the combination of Slimecraw, Leviathan, and Briarheart on a Stamsorc pve solo build.
I used the precursor because it would take fifteen minutes to kill the 6k with light attacks.
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Skullstachio✭✭✭✭✭ImmortalCX wrote: »Comparing Hunding's rage to Leviathan, they are virtually identical except for the 5pc bonus.
On Hunding's, there is 288 weapon damage
On Leviathan, there is 1857 weapon critical
On my CP450 stamblade, Briarheart and Leviathan equipped, my weapon damage is 2558 unbuffed. I know this is on the low side, however with the Briarheart proc, it goes up another 439 around 2/3rds of the time. If I equip Hundings, weapon damage is 2800+, but crit is lower.
Because Briarheart is a crit-based proc, I assumed that Leviathan is a better match. Its also easier to farm a 5pc Leviathan because of jewelry drops.
Can anyone offer some guidelines for selecting weapon damage over crit, and vice versa? Is there a baseline, unbuffed weapon damage that you need to attain before extra crit becomes useful?
Have you tried Including "Toothrow" in place of leviathan? because quite frankly, it is known that Toothrow adds on more critical than Leviathan by comparison. (without weapon crit potions that is.)
Toothrow:
2 items: Adds 12-1096 Maximum Stamina
3 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
4 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
5 items: Adds 1-100 Weapon Damage
5 items: Gain Major Savagery at all times, increasing your Weapon Critical rating by 2191.
Leviathan:
2 items: Adds 12-1096 Maximum Stamina
3 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
4 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
5 items: Adds 22-1924 Weapon Critical
In comparison, Toothrow Beats Leviathan by 267 Weapon Critical(again, without Weapon Crit potions.) plus unlike leviathan, Toothrow's Fifth piece bonus also adds 100 extra weapon damage on top of it all, making it a more viable choice.
also, I'd look at @Masel92's comprehensive guide to damage dealing(link provided) for added insight so you may plan ahead when needed.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1If you see me anywhere. Know that I am sitting back with a bag of popcorn, watching as ESO burns the goodwill of its player base with practices that only disrespects the players time like it did to me and many others...
If a game does not respect your time, best thing to do is move on from it and find something else.0 -
ImmortalCX✭✭✭✭✭Alpha-Lupi wrote: »ImmortalCX wrote: »Comparing Hunding's rage to Leviathan, they are virtually identical except for the 5pc bonus.
On Hunding's, there is 288 weapon damage
On Leviathan, there is 1857 weapon critical
On my CP450 stamblade, Briarheart and Leviathan equipped, my weapon damage is 2558 unbuffed. I know this is on the low side, however with the Briarheart proc, it goes up another 439 around 2/3rds of the time. If I equip Hundings, weapon damage is 2800+, but crit is lower.
Because Briarheart is a crit-based proc, I assumed that Leviathan is a better match. Its also easier to farm a 5pc Leviathan because of jewelry drops.
Can anyone offer some guidelines for selecting weapon damage over crit, and vice versa? Is there a baseline, unbuffed weapon damage that you need to attain before extra crit becomes useful?
Have you tried Including "Toothrow" in place of leviathan? because quite frankly, it is known that Toothrow adds on more critical than Leviathan by comparison. (without weapon crit potions that is.)
Toothrow:
2 items: Adds 12-1096 Maximum Stamina
3 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
4 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
5 items: Adds 1-100 Weapon Damage
5 items: Gain Major Savagery at all times, increasing your Weapon Critical rating by 2191.
Leviathan:
2 items: Adds 12-1096 Maximum Stamina
3 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
4 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
5 items: Adds 22-1924 Weapon Critical
In comparison, Toothrow Beats Leviathan by 267 Weapon Critical(again, without Weapon Crit potions.) plus unlike leviathan, Toothrow's Fifth piece bonus also adds 100 extra weapon damage on top of it all, making it a more viable choice.
also, I'd look at @Masel92's comprehensive guide to damage dealing(link provided) for added insight so you may plan ahead when needed.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1
Thanks for link.
Slotting Expert Hunter gives major savagery, so Toothrow may be better for some builds.0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ImmortalCX wrote: »Alpha-Lupi wrote: »ImmortalCX wrote: »Comparing Hunding's rage to Leviathan, they are virtually identical except for the 5pc bonus.
On Hunding's, there is 288 weapon damage
On Leviathan, there is 1857 weapon critical
On my CP450 stamblade, Briarheart and Leviathan equipped, my weapon damage is 2558 unbuffed. I know this is on the low side, however with the Briarheart proc, it goes up another 439 around 2/3rds of the time. If I equip Hundings, weapon damage is 2800+, but crit is lower.
Because Briarheart is a crit-based proc, I assumed that Leviathan is a better match. Its also easier to farm a 5pc Leviathan because of jewelry drops.
Can anyone offer some guidelines for selecting weapon damage over crit, and vice versa? Is there a baseline, unbuffed weapon damage that you need to attain before extra crit becomes useful?
Have you tried Including "Toothrow" in place of leviathan? because quite frankly, it is known that Toothrow adds on more critical than Leviathan by comparison. (without weapon crit potions that is.)
Toothrow:
2 items: Adds 12-1096 Maximum Stamina
3 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
4 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
5 items: Adds 1-100 Weapon Damage
5 items: Gain Major Savagery at all times, increasing your Weapon Critical rating by 2191.
Leviathan:
2 items: Adds 12-1096 Maximum Stamina
3 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
4 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
5 items: Adds 22-1924 Weapon Critical
In comparison, Toothrow Beats Leviathan by 267 Weapon Critical(again, without Weapon Crit potions.) plus unlike leviathan, Toothrow's Fifth piece bonus also adds 100 extra weapon damage on top of it all, making it a more viable choice.
also, I'd look at @Masel92's comprehensive guide to damage dealing(link provided) for added insight so you may plan ahead when needed.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1
Thanks for link.
Slotting Expert Hunter gives major savagery, so Toothrow may be better for some builds.
Don't use toothrow. Use either of the sets you are asking about and when you need more damage, just drink a pot. If you are serious about damage that is.5 -
oXI_Viper_IXo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ImmortalCX wrote: »Alpha-Lupi wrote: »ImmortalCX wrote: »Comparing Hunding's rage to Leviathan, they are virtually identical except for the 5pc bonus.
On Hunding's, there is 288 weapon damage
On Leviathan, there is 1857 weapon critical
On my CP450 stamblade, Briarheart and Leviathan equipped, my weapon damage is 2558 unbuffed. I know this is on the low side, however with the Briarheart proc, it goes up another 439 around 2/3rds of the time. If I equip Hundings, weapon damage is 2800+, but crit is lower.
Because Briarheart is a crit-based proc, I assumed that Leviathan is a better match. Its also easier to farm a 5pc Leviathan because of jewelry drops.
Can anyone offer some guidelines for selecting weapon damage over crit, and vice versa? Is there a baseline, unbuffed weapon damage that you need to attain before extra crit becomes useful?
Have you tried Including "Toothrow" in place of leviathan? because quite frankly, it is known that Toothrow adds on more critical than Leviathan by comparison. (without weapon crit potions that is.)
Toothrow:
2 items: Adds 12-1096 Maximum Stamina
3 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
4 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
5 items: Adds 1-100 Weapon Damage
5 items: Gain Major Savagery at all times, increasing your Weapon Critical rating by 2191.
Leviathan:
2 items: Adds 12-1096 Maximum Stamina
3 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
4 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
5 items: Adds 22-1924 Weapon Critical
In comparison, Toothrow Beats Leviathan by 267 Weapon Critical(again, without Weapon Crit potions.) plus unlike leviathan, Toothrow's Fifth piece bonus also adds 100 extra weapon damage on top of it all, making it a more viable choice.
also, I'd look at @Masel92's comprehensive guide to damage dealing(link provided) for added insight so you may plan ahead when needed.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1
Thanks for link.
Slotting Expert Hunter gives major savagery, so Toothrow may be better for some builds.
You also benefit from the Fighters Guild Slayer passive by slotting Expert Hunter.1 -
Colecovision✭✭✭✭✭
✭ImmortalCX wrote: »Colecovision wrote: »I can't seem to beat hundings with liviathan. Being Khajiit might matter, but I don't know how to apply it on paper. My gut says hundings for khajiit and leviathan for redguard.
One plus for Hundings is that it can have the ideal 5/1/1 setup with Heavy chest and light waist.
I am redguard. Why do you think leviathan is better for redguard?
Khajit has a crit bonus and there is a line in crit rating that it's worth crossing. Redguard doesn't have that but instead offers the equivalent of weapon damage with the max stam bonus. So the crit from leviathan will do more there.
The key here is to test for yourself. Not only because race is imbalanced and frequently left out of these discussions, but because some of the guys testsing are giving values for perfect weaving and whatever else.
If you have access to pts, use it when our characters are there. You can test everything. If you have limited gaming time, I'd still recommend it. It's fun.
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ImmortalCX✭✭✭✭✭Colecovision wrote: »ImmortalCX wrote: »Colecovision wrote: »I can't seem to beat hundings with liviathan. Being Khajiit might matter, but I don't know how to apply it on paper. My gut says hundings for khajiit and leviathan for redguard.
One plus for Hundings is that it can have the ideal 5/1/1 setup with Heavy chest and light waist.
I am redguard. Why do you think leviathan is better for redguard?
Khajit has a crit bonus and there is a line in crit rating that it's worth crossing. Redguard doesn't have that but instead offers the equivalent of weapon damage with the max stam bonus. So the crit from leviathan will do more there.
The key here is to test for yourself. Not only because race is imbalanced and frequently left out of these discussions, but because some of the guys testsing are giving values for perfect weaving and whatever else.
If you have access to pts, use it when our characters are there. You can test everything. If you have limited gaming time, I'd still recommend it. It's fun.
Here's a question...
If Leviathan turned out to be better in a LA test, is there any reason to believe it wouldn't be better in a full rotation?
AFAICT, crit and weapon damage are a constant across skills, each skill will scale the same way with respect to crit and weapon damage.
Of course this doesn't consider sustain, but my current thinking is that LA testing (on something like the Precursor) is going to give a more consistent, more easily quantifyable result than a full rotation.
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shadowofnarsil✭✭✭Interesting.....I have been away from the game for about 6 months, and the fact this conversation is even occurring tells me that my stamblade, running TFS and Leviathan, with Warrior......is still interesting. Hitting 3500 damage DW, @ 75% crit.0 -
MooseKnuckles88✭✭✭✭How ironic, I'm contemplating dropping Hundings for Leviathan on a dw/bow stamden atm. Currently in relequens armor and velidrith set.0