A change to Rapid Maneuver?

DivineFirstYOLO · October 2018

Since solo and small scale players got nerfed (major expedition changes), some of them were asking/crying to nerf Rapid Maneuver so that medium and big sized groups would lose their tools aswell. I think - by now - most of us will agree that nerfing stuff hardly ever gives the desired effect.

So here is an idea:
What if we change Rapid Maneuver so that the skill costs 500 (or a bit more) amount of stamina for every member in the group that you hit?
Quick maths:

4 people in group - one guy using maneuver, he is hitting all of them - maneuver cost 2000 stam.
12 people in group - maneuver hitting all of them - cost 6000 stam.

This will be a buff if you have less than around 12-14 people in your group (if we use 500 as the base factor) and it will be a nerf for bigger groups.

What are the benefits? Solo (even magicka builds) and smaller groups would have an easy way to fight snares.

Why would we use this over shuffle?
Well, only stam users have access to shuffle and with this change you would have the option to use maneuver for snare removal or shuffle for major evasion.

Why would we use this over forward momentum?
Simply because not everyone wants to use 2h.

Both shuffle and foward momentum would have their viability because you lose the snare immunity and speed buff from maneuver when you cast spells on enemies or allies.

Major Gallop should remain untouched, leave it as it is. Reduce Major Expedition time to somewhere between 5 - 10 seconds. This won't really hurt PvE score runs that much (everbody in the group could use it once, you would lose like 2 seconds to unslot the skill - but most have an addon for that anyway)

Any thoughts @ZOS_BrianWheeler , @ZOS_Wrobel
Also adding some of the class representatives (that are frequently? in Cyro): @Hexys , @NightbladeMechanics , @Joy_Division
and people who do not like maneuver as it is right now: @Thogard , @del9

Suggestions? Ideas? Nerfs?

Oh, I forgot: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/438977/small-scaler-s-wishlist/p1
This list is worth reading. The res system could need some changes (a small cooldown for example - but maybe more on that in a different thread).

Aliyavana · October 2018

Zerglings won't like that. It ruins their immersion when a small scaler can outrun their snipe spam.

Nyladreas · October 2018

Aliyavana wrote: »

Zerglings won't like that. It ruins their immersion when a small scaler can outrun their snipe spam.

del9 · October 2018

I do like the new perspective. Making the cost scale with group size is novel. But I don't think any other skill in the game does this, and that kind of change may be a little too challenging for ZoS to roll out by Murkmire.

I also think with your proposed cost for a 12-man buff might be a little low. I know you are just giving examples but for rapids to still buff 12 players I think a 10% reduction in cost would be fair.

I still think a reduction to 3-6 players affected with a 25% cost reduction would be fair. This wouldn't completely break large PVP raid group composition, but would force them to compensate and allocate more players/resources for access to these buffs. Even at a 6 player cap, 18-24 man groups would still be more mobile than a small group, which is entirely counter-intuitive. A larger group should have more healing and damage. It is, after all, a group game. But in what other games or reality does a larger force move faster and unhindered than a smaller one? :thinking:

Another potential balancing I could see is to reduce the radius - in my ideal smol-scale perma Fowrard momentum fairy world - it would have a 10m radius, in-line with vigor.

I also would posit that this is not another nerf - everything that has happened to mobility has been a nerf. This would be a fair balancing.

NoTimeToWait · October 2018

DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »

Major Gallop should remain untouched, leave it as it is. Reduce Major Expedition time to somewhere between 5 - 10 seconds. This won't really hurt PvE score runs that much (everbody in the group could use it once, you would lose like 2 seconds to unslot the skill - but most have an addon for that anyway)

Oh yes, because that's why we use Major Expedition in PVE - to score achievements in dungeons.
Well, sorry I ignored other text in your post. You shouldn't be too offended, since you kind of ignored the whole PVE part in your consideration

Dextail · October 2018

The zergsquad guy doesn’t want rapids nerfed

Who would have known,

If I can’t used speed pots reliably, then I don’t see why this 24 man group should be able to.

Honestly they need to make rapids only effect mount speed and the snare removal needs to be changed also. Maybe only the caster should receive it, or make it like powerful assault only 4 people get snared removes per cast

Surak73 · October 2018

Nope: a 500 stamina spammable skill would just make useless the long needed reduction to major expedition potion time. Or it would be even worse, since the player could use another potion with other effects in the meantime. You don't want to keep seeing players just running around a tree or a rock, or up and down in a tower, and saying they are 1vXing (LOL), do you?...

As for zergling, this is actually a problem, but a little change is enough: rapid manouver effects only the caster, or maybe two player max. Problem solved.

VaranisArano · October 2018

Aliyavana wrote: »

Zerglings won't like that. It ruins their immersion when a small scaler can outrun their snipe spam.

Zerglings dont use rapids in combat, in my experience. Not enough group cohesion for it to be worth it.

Organized Raids run rapids in combat because they can actually ask players to sacrifice a bit of DPS to support the group.

For the OP, Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 players according to its tooltip. 12000 Stam cost to hit everyone in the size of group allowed by Cyrodiil is excessive.

Moreover, large organized raids can simply ask more people to run rapids when needed. It would cost a lot more in terms if their stam DPS, but they can. They'd adjust to this too.

The people this benefits the most are orgabized small scale and small ballgroups of 12-16 people who dont get much increased cost from Rapids. Which is your goal, but again, Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 (originally groups of 8 to 24.)

However, given that ZOS wants you all to invest in speed, I'd say that its more likely to have a base cost of 2-3000 and then have a scaling cost.

DivineFirstYOLO · October 2018

Dextail wrote: »

The zergsquad guy doesn’t want rapids nerfed

Who would have known,

If I can’t used speed pots reliably, then I don’t see why this 24 man group should be able to.

Honestly they need to make rapids only effect mount speed and the snare removal needs to be changed also. Maybe only the caster should receive it, or make it like powerful assault only 4 people get snared removes per cast

I have 4 points for you:

1. Read the first post again, the goal of the change is to make Rapid Maneuver available for almost everyone.
2. We run 10-16 man groups, most of the time 12 cause we have many slackers.
3. To think Rapid Maneuver is used for the Major Expedition buff is a mistake. As I wrote in my first post, the moment you cast certain abilities you will lose the buff, and you will have to cast abilities if you want to escape 30 people chasing you.
4. Take away Maneuver, we will find a way to farm you anyway. You don't have the coordination and the dedicated people we have. ez.

@del9 your system make sense, thanks for the input.

NoTimeToWait wrote: »

DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »

Major Gallop should remain untouched, leave it as it is. Reduce Major Expedition time to somewhere between 5 - 10 seconds. This won't really hurt PvE score runs that much (everbody in the group could use it once, you would lose like 2 seconds to unslot the skill - but most have an addon for that anyway)

Oh yes, because that's why we use Major Expedition in PVE - to score achievements in dungeons.
Well, sorry I ignored other text in your post. You shouldn't be too offended, since you kind of ignored the whole PVE part in your consideration

How would that affect PvE tho? Enlighten me please so that we can try to work around it.

VaranisArano wrote: »

The people this benefits the most are orgabized small scale and small ballgroups of 12-16 people who dont get much increased cost from Rapids. Which is your goal, but again, Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 (originally groups of 8 to 24.)

However, given that ZOS wants you all to invest in speed, I'd say that its more likely to have a base cost of 2-3000 and then have a scaling cost.

Yeah sounds good aswell. My idea (which isn't even mine) was just the spark that ignites the fire. Keep dem ideas rolling :-)