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[Discussion] Speed, Speed, Speed: Topic on the Upcoming Snare and Speed Change

MrTtheDK
MrTtheDK
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Greetings Community! I am not normally a forum warrior but felt compelled to articulate the growing concern in a meta shift among the solo and small man player base from this current patch with an overabundance of speed to what the devs envision in the upcoming installment. For reference there were numerous adjustments added by the devs in the last PTS patch which greatly limited the ability to remove snares (Reducing forward momentum to four second snare immunity) and viable skill access to major expedition with even more changes coming in terms of Immovable Speed and Lingering health/Speed Pots. While many reacted in a non constructive manner I want this thread to be a lively and positive in nature so that a good conversation can be had from both perspectives.

The problem: Some feel with the introduction of swift, speed has gotten out of control with player builds being "uncatchable" since snares are removed via forward momentum, players can stack swift with major expedition and be at 60% increased move speed without factoring in sprint/medium armor/minor expedition ect.

The reaction: Given this concern, the devs enacted a major change with speed. They changed the golden value of swift from 10 percent to 6 percent (30 percent vs 18 Percent). Limited access to major expedition from skills to four seconds. Have announced a change to speed pots (Probably looking at the same uptime as pots with major vitality- currently 16.3 seconds) . While also increasing the "Sprint Speed" from the Steed mundus to 10 percent from 5 percent. Finally they reduced the effectiveness of using forward momentum by fifty percent to four seconds.

My thoughts on why ZoS is moving in that direction: Players should work their builds to be more sustain focused if they want to maintain a workable speed. We (as a player base) are aware of the continued power creep that the CP System poses and by changing player access to speed this will reduce stam's ability to combat snares/movement thus effectively reducing damage posed by stam since they will need to use other methods: Example Steed over mundus, More sustain for maintaining skills that grant major expedition ect.

The actual effect: Players that relay on self buffed speed (No rapid maneuvers) will have an increasingly difficult time to removing snares and maintaining workable speed percentages while fighting outnumbered.

What the changes do not affect: Ball Groups that play in numbers 12+ where they have focused roles.

Ball groups have no concern with the changes since they have the ability to designate a player to provide major expedition and snare removal via rapid maneuvers. The player builds no WD, can run in medium (has someone providing defensive buffs and heals), while focusing on having a high stam pool and regen. This allows them to spam a 6k stam skill repetitively without running short on resources.

In addition to that the ball group runs:

Templars/Sorcs being tasked with providing ranged or AOE CC via Javelin/Steak/Rune Prison. While stam players are assigned the role of providing continued range snare harassment using flying blade or the group may use a disruptor who provides both using steak/encase.

What it doesnt do: Combat the actual problem with the game which is ball groups. They will have no need to adjust their builds as there was nothing changed that shifts their meta. This does however affect small scale or solo players with the same breath reinforcing ball group meta which is a major source of zerging/lag.

Post in review: Speed was out of control. The adjustment to swift was warranted but the change to major expedition skills was not. A huge meta change was enacted but A. It only affects players that relay on themselves for mobility and B. Doesnt combat ball groups spamming rapids or purge.

My compromise: Revert the skill changes to 66 percent of original value, Scale Forward Momentum down to 6 seconds, Increase Shuffle to 6 Seconds (Due to Cost) and create a cost increase to ball group skills like purge/rapids similar to steak as their currently is not a counter to it when building a high regen build.

Disagree, agree or provide your own thoughts. We as a community need to discuss this as the looming change will have a huge effect on the game.

CCing some ZOS Employees if they would like to discuss on this topic as well.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Gilliam
Main:
DC- Diablo Azul , Mr T


Alts: Nerf Something or Another

Guild: - Imperial City Police
RIP Guilds: Purple, WKB, Eight Divines, Rage, What Mechanics, Entropy Rising
Game: @TalosSeptim
  • EliteWarrior
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    I think that whatever ZOS changes, it's not going to affect a large group in open world PvP.
    I like the idea of nerfing speed in PvP, I like seeing builds rely on sustain and survivability rather than speed and just running away to regen, although that might be because I play StamDK and my build is quite slow on the battlefield.
    PC | EU
    Main: Stam DK
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    FM builds are immune to roots and snares on live. Your idea just does that but with med builds too. How are slower builds meant to counter them? Might as well scrap my main then if you want to add more classes that are immune to its niche.

    Shuffle is more than fine tbh, AoE reduction, 2.5s immunity, and unchainable the only problem is it doesn't compare to heavy stam, which is still too fast.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • MrTtheDK
    MrTtheDK
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    FM builds are immune to roots and snares on live. Your idea just does that but with med builds too. How are slower builds meant to counter them? Might as well scrap my main then if you want to add more classes that are immune to its niche.

    Shuffle is more than fine tbh, AoE reduction, 2.5s immunity, and unchainable the only problem is it doesn't compare to heavy stam, which is still too fast.

    I am assuming from your post that your main is a magdk? My alternative is still an adjustment to live which is currently 8 seconds. A 25% reduction would bring it more in line with shuffle for medium and now light (Reduces effectiveness of snares)
    Main:
    DC- Diablo Azul , Mr T


    Alts: Nerf Something or Another

    Guild: - Imperial City Police
    RIP Guilds: Purple, WKB, Eight Divines, Rage, What Mechanics, Entropy Rising
    Game: @TalosSeptim
  • p00tx
    p00tx
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    This is a really well-written, thoughtful, intelligent post. Thank you for spelling things out so clearly.

    From my own perspective, I see nothing wrong with building for speed, if that's your play style. I don't think people should be penalized for choosing speed over sustain any more than someone should be penalized for choosing survivability over damage.

    That being said, the speed is actually an issue right now because the servers can't currently keep up with the movement, and desync frequently occurs, which means I'll be standing there on a resource flag, by myself, with Magelight up and not a player in sight, and the next thing I know I'm dead, surrounded by 6 people moving at hyper speed, and 2297849873457 points of damage on my recap from Dawnbreaker, Steel Tornado and Subterranean Assault. If I see you coming, and I don't get out of the way fast enough, or I'm just not being alert or observant, that's my problem, no matter how fast you were going, but if the game servers can't keep up, we have to make sure the player abilities don't outstrip that and make any sort of counter play impossible.

    Unfortunately, the developers have chosen to strip our speed rather than addressing the terrible server speed/lag, so this is what we're left with.
    Edited by p00tx on October 8, 2018 7:23PM
    PC/Xbox NA
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  • Jjitsuboy98
    Jjitsuboy98
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    It's already hard to do good damage and have mobility on a Stam DK in solo PVP. Sustain is rough. Speed pots allowed me to still have mobility and use LOS to mitigate damage. Now though they won't be worth running.

    I even ran speed pots on Magicka DK when I played him. Even the skills now only make it last four seconds so it's going to be taxing on resources. And when every guy and their brother is hitting you from beyond with snipe LOS and speed is so important .
  • Nicalas
    Nicalas
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    Your'e changes could work.

    If ZOS wants to nerf speed all ranged skills need to be cut in half. Because without speed stamina has no defense against them.

    The upcoming changes are completely devastating to no CP and BG's. With lower resource pools and resource regeneration. We lack cost reductions to things like break free, roll dodge, blocking, sprint so we are punished considerably more. Most stamina in NO CP already has to build sustain. Removing our most effective defensive mechanic is extremely punishing and I think the game will shift heavily to nothing but ranged builds poking each other without any real engagement. Not to mention all the templars and dragonknights that will be shelved again due to lack of mobility. Being pidgeon holed into using 2H for a gap closer. With the cut in Major Expedition uptime we won't even be able to get far enough away to reset combat and mount. Stumbling into a group outnumbered is now an instant death sentence.

    I am not quitting the game. But with its subpar PVE content and now what will seemingly be an unplayable form of PVP I have to start considering alternative hobbies.
  • arkansas_ESO
    arkansas_ESO
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    Nicalas wrote: »
    If ZOS wants to nerf speed all ranged skills need to be cut in half. Because without speed stamina has no defense against them.

    ...you know that gap closers exist, right?


    Grand Overlord 25/8/17
  • WeyounTM
    WeyounTM
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    Nicalas wrote: »
    If ZOS wants to nerf speed all ranged skills need to be cut in half. Because without speed stamina has no defense against them.

    ...you know that gap closers exist, right?

    Ever tried a gap closer on a line of sight object...? On second thought...that would be hillarious...please ZOS can we target a rock or a tree with a gap closer please...pretty please?
    Magicka-Khajiit-Player since Beta

    PC-EU Vivec Sotha Sil Campaign
    Heals-your-Paws Khajiit Magplar - Main Char - AD (sadly)

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  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Will be switching all my jewelry on my dot builds to Bloodthirsty from swift to be honest...

  • MrTtheDK
    MrTtheDK
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    Called the pot duration correctly. To limit it to that of what major vitality is from pots is bananas.
    Main:
    DC- Diablo Azul , Mr T


    Alts: Nerf Something or Another

    Guild: - Imperial City Police
    RIP Guilds: Purple, WKB, Eight Divines, Rage, What Mechanics, Entropy Rising
    Game: @TalosSeptim
  • Maryal
    Maryal
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    Nicalas wrote: »
    If ZOS wants to nerf speed all ranged skills need to be cut in half. Because without speed stamina has no defense against them.

    ...you know that gap closers exist, right?

    A gap closer has to actually work. My gap closer (ambush) is very unreliable (even when the target isn't moving).
    My toon either:
    a.) doesn't move (after hearing the sound go off, neither my target nor I have moved ... and I'm too far away to heavy/light attack); or
    b.) I land inside my target's mesh; or
    c.) I land on the far side of my target (target is behind me).
    Edited by Maryal on October 9, 2018 1:24PM
  • Jaraal
    Jaraal
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    A lot of the targeting issues are caused by lag. People with suboptimal systems are at a disadvantage, and it's easier to blame player speed as the problem, rather than connection (or Sithis forbid, l2p issues.) If you think part of ZOS's thinking on slowing down players doesn't include compensation for poor server performance, you'd probably be mistaken.
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