Tasear wrote: »

db0ssman wrote: »

My main healer since I played for the first time is a NB healer.

I was actually first attracted to it because I thought that having a healer that focused on debuffing the enemies while healing would be really cool. Obviously, over time, it became apparent that play style was useless in practice, but I eventually settled on using it as a healer that could both do damage and heal. Since I mostly played NM PUG dungeons and only occasionally played vet PUGS, it was nicely balanced between healing and damage. If I rolled a group that didn't need much healing, I could play more like a weak dps and play more like a healer when groups needed it.

Are you okay with upcoming changes for nb Healers? How do you feel about them and the playstyle you enjoy?

Well, I've written a few posts on the subject that you have even commented on, but the TL;DR version is that the changes are going to pretty much destroy the way I play. It is going to force me into either trying to convert fully into a white mage healer (mostly just healing with little to no damage) or a black mage healer (mostly a dps with a few key heals barred). Each have their strengths and weaknesses. A white mage NB is going to have a lot of HoTs (but refreshing path is going to have fairly limited utility and funnel health would get more like a 70% damage reduction and 1/4 healing reduction in vet), but otherwise almost completely rely on shared abilities. A WM NB would also mostly stand around and do nothing in easier content. The BM NB will be a DPS that has to proc healthy offering or healing springs once in a while and help clear NM content pretty easily, but will have trouble in any remotely difficult vet content.

I've been theory crafting a NB WM build on the PTS, but I've been having trouble getting over 10k group bursts which will make it somewhat useless in vet content but it can almost indefinitely sustain 10k heals which is a bit overkill in NM. Hard to test the actual effectiveness of a healer build without people to run content with, though.

It was NB but the PTS notes have completed gutted him to a point that I'm currently constructing a Mausoleum for him at my house to commemorate his memory.

Now, it'll be my Warden.

jim_1 wrote: »

Short answer: What healer?

Long answer:

Up until earlier this year I had a templar healer. Back then you could queue for PvE dungeons through group finder and the queue time for healer was shorter than DPS. Groups (then) would run PvE dungeons with 2 DPS, 1 tank, 1 healer.

Now my only templar is a DPS, and I don't have a healer character. The group finder dungeon queue time for healer is just as long on PS4 / NA as the queue time for DPS. I still do a daily undaunted quest using group finder most days with my DK tank, and I see few healers. Mostly I get a group of three DPS, and I use Green Dragon Blood and heal potions to get through the dungeon while I am tanking. I am thinking about adding Resolving Vigor to one of my bars for my tank, since I am most often having to heal myself.

Must be the time of day I play but I never run into much of a problem finding a group in the DF rather quickly on my warden healer (PS4)

Silver_Strider wrote: »

It was NB but the PTS notes have completed gutted him to a point that I'm currently constructing a Mausoleum for him at my house to commemorate his memory.

Now, it'll be my Warden.

Lol... gutted? Please, stop being dramatic.

Warden, and I think she's such a good healer.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

It was NB but the PTS notes have completed gutted him to a point that I'm currently constructing a Mausoleum for him at my house to commemorate his memory.

Now, it'll be my Warden.

Lol... gutted? Please, stop being dramatic.

Listen, ask anyone that knows me and they'll all say that I'm dramatic. However, they also know that my dramatic nature comes from how passionate I am on a given topic and depending how deep that passion runs, the more dramatic I get. The fact that my cheap a** has actually dropped over 250k in furniture plans, mats, etc. as well as the mil to buy the Coldharbour house SOLELY to create a Mausoleum for this endeavor goes to show just how passionate I am about this.

My NB healer has been gutted; that is how I truly and honestly feel about the PTS changes. This isn't a simple matter of just adapt since there's nothing to adapt to. There's no utility in my class I can use to supplement my healing, no alternative set up that would yield better results, it's just a straight nerf to the aggressive playstyle of NB healers that does the exact opposite of making healers feel more useful in dungeons.

This bastardization of the entire playstyle of NB Healer has done NOTHING to make myself, or anyone that plays NB Healers, feel more useful in dungeons. It makes us feel even more useless than ever and I'll be DAMNED if you think I'm just going to take your statement laying down.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

It was NB but the PTS notes have completed gutted him to a point that I'm currently constructing a Mausoleum for him at my house to commemorate his memory.

Now, it'll be my Warden.

Lol... gutted? Please, stop being dramatic.

Listen, ask anyone that knows me and they'll all say that I'm dramatic. However, they also know that my dramatic nature comes from how passionate I am on a given topic and depending how deep that passion runs, the more dramatic I get. The fact that my cheap a** has actually dropped over 250k in furniture plans, mats, etc. as well as the mil to buy the Coldharbour house SOLELY to create a Mausoleum for this endeavor goes to show just how passionate I am about this.

My NB healer has been gutted; that is how I truly and honestly feel about the PTS changes. This isn't a simple matter of just adapt since there's nothing to adapt to. There's no utility in my class I can use to supplement my healing, no alternative set up that would yield better results, it's just a straight nerf to the aggressive playstyle of NB healers that does the exact opposite of making healers feel more useful in dungeons.

This bastardization of the entire playstyle of NB Healer has done NOTHING to make myself, or anyone that plays NB Healers, feel more useful in dungeons. It makes us feel even more useless than ever and I'll be DAMNED if you think I'm just going to take your statement laying down.

You can take it however you want honestly. Magblade healing will be absolutely fine next patch. You lost minor dps via funnel (which is optional now anyways) and refreshing path. Its not gutted. Frankly HPS on magblade has historically been above the other healers on average, even with the nerf to 2 ally targeting on funnel health (which itself was a nerf that many inexperienced claimed ruined nb healers at the time as well) so taking the loss of HPS by using the swallow soul morph to cushion the price of healthy offering is more than adequate, and the support dps loss is only marginal in the refreshing path dmg removal.

Solid end game trial groups never needed the extra damage once said group was optimized especially with how few enrage timers are in this game. The benefit of nb healer in that environment became relatively moot. In pvp you should have never been using funnel health to begin with since the change to the current healthy offering. Refreshing path no longer catching stealth does suck but oh well. In 4 mans as well, funnel health is completely unnecessary, with offering, mutagen and path, if you want to add a 13k crit spammable, use swallow soul. This nerf is hardly game breaking, and to suggest nb healers are gutted (lol) is absurd. The discussion for nb healer needs should encompasses group synergy options, not concerns over its HPS and DPS. Also group wide major expedition post expedition duration nerfs is going to be a valuable tool for small groups in pvp via resource alleviation for allies since they will have to reapply major exp more frequently otherwise come murkmire.

Anyone that is seriously damaged by these nerfs to the point of benching their healblade, i would posit were never really good nb healers to begin with. Sorry. The only truly noteworthy nerf was the loss of 100 percent uptime minor vitality for pvp nb healers which effects their ability to take damage when pressured. Its a small consultation, but knowing where to place your swallow soul casts is going to be more important now, since the precent heal of damage done will reach around 45 percent in murkmire.

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

@Silver_Strider Preach.

Blind leading the blind

exeeter702 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

It was NB but the PTS notes have completed gutted him to a point that I'm currently constructing a Mausoleum for him at my house to commemorate his memory.

Now, it'll be my Warden.

Lol... gutted? Please, stop being dramatic.

Listen, ask anyone that knows me and they'll all say that I'm dramatic. However, they also know that my dramatic nature comes from how passionate I am on a given topic and depending how deep that passion runs, the more dramatic I get. The fact that my cheap a** has actually dropped over 250k in furniture plans, mats, etc. as well as the mil to buy the Coldharbour house SOLELY to create a Mausoleum for this endeavor goes to show just how passionate I am about this.

My NB healer has been gutted; that is how I truly and honestly feel about the PTS changes. This isn't a simple matter of just adapt since there's nothing to adapt to. There's no utility in my class I can use to supplement my healing, no alternative set up that would yield better results, it's just a straight nerf to the aggressive playstyle of NB healers that does the exact opposite of making healers feel more useful in dungeons.

This bastardization of the entire playstyle of NB Healer has done NOTHING to make myself, or anyone that plays NB Healers, feel more useful in dungeons. It makes us feel even more useless than ever and I'll be DAMNED if you think I'm just going to take your statement laying down.

You can take it however you want honestly. Magblade healing will be absolutely fine next patch. You lost minor dps via funnel (which is optional now anyways) and refreshing path. Its not gutted. Frankly HPS on magblade has historically been above the other healers on average, even with the nerf to 2 ally targeting on funnel health (which itself was a nerf that many inexperienced claimed ruined nb healers at the time as well) so taking the loss of HPS by using the swallow soul morph to cushion the price of healthy offering is more than adequate, and the support dps loss is only marginal in the refreshing path dmg removal.

Solid end game trial groups never needed the extra damage once said group was optimized especially with how few enrage timers are in this game. The benefit of nb healer in that environment became relatively moot. In pvp you should have never been using funnel health to begin with since the change to the current healthy offering. Refreshing path no longer catching stealth does suck but oh well. In 4 mans as well, funnel health is completely unnecessary, with ***, mutagen and path, if you want to add a 13k crit spammable, use swallow soul. This nerf is hardly game breaking, and to suggest nb healers are gutted (lol) is absurd. The discussion for nb healer needs should encompasses group synergy options, not concerns over its HPS and DPS. Also group wide major expedition post expedition duration nerfs is going to be a valuable tool for small groups in pvp via resource alleviation for allies since they will have to reapply major exp more frequently otherwise come murkmire.

Anyone that is seriously damaged by these nerfs to the point of benching their healblade, i would posit were never really good nb healers to begin with. Sorry.

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

@Silver_Strider Preach.

Blind leading the blind

There's so many things wrong with this post that I swear it gave me cancer.

First off, by swapping Funnel for Swallow Soul and try to make up for loss of HPS with Malevolent, you are essentially relegating Funnel to be a dead morph option and we already have enough of those without making any more, especially when you consider that HoT Healing was more or less NB's shtick as a Healer. Trading that away for Malevolent pretty much means just being a Templar BoL spammer.

Solid end game trial groups never needed the extra damage once said group was optimized especially with how few enrage timers are in this game

This part is so laughably wrong as well that I honestly stopped taking you seriously upon reading it. Damage is King in ESO, so to say that they never needed the extra damage is an absolute joke when talking about end game content. There's a reason that Top Tier Groups brought 7 NB DPS into the group and that was because they provided so much extra off healing that Healers could pretty much just DPS for the most part outside of high raid damage attacks and NB offered plenty of supplementary healing for that too with Refreshing Path.

In pvp you should have never been using funnel health to begin with since the change to the current healthy offering

You're clearly a s*** NB Healer in PvP if you believe this for 1 minute. Funnel is used to help support your team by helping with damage and providing some support healing to go with your teams own self heals, with Offerings used as emergency heals but now Funnel is barely making a dent anymore and with Refreshing losing the reveal it also damages our usefulness in PvP by a fairly large margin. The nerf to Piercing Mark was just icing at that point as far as PvP is concerned.

In 4 mans as well, funnel health is completely unnecessary, with ***, mutagen and path, if you want to add a 13k crit spammable, use swallow soul

Healing was unnecessary in 4 man content period, when you had decent players. The problem came from when you got awful players. The damage+healing provided by Funnel was of great help during those times because it allowed you to more or less carry bad players while maintaining your role without issue and swapping to Swallow soul does NOT do that.

Also group wide major expedition post expedition duration nerfs is going to be a valuable tool for small groups in pvp via resource alleviation for allies since they will have to reapply major exp more frequently otherwise come murkmire.

Rapid Maneuvers says hello. There's is almost ALWAYS someone in a group in PvP that has Rapids slotted just for this purpose and to even suggest Path is great because it provides Major Expedition for 2 seconds is just so laughably sad.

The discussion for nb healer needs should encompasses group synergy options, not concerns over its HPS and DPS

I have posted in every single forum post and even created my own topic about ways to improve NB Healers ever since PTS started. I've done this to great length that I'm honestly sick and tired of typing out all my suggestions.

Anyone that is seriously damaged by these nerfs to the point of benching their healblade, i would posit were never really good nb healers to begin with. Sorry.

I have never had a problem with healing on my NB. I have always had a problem with the fact I offer no utility other than damage but now that my damage is taking a nose dive, what exactly is the point of a NB Healer? Templar and Warden Healers have several useful utilities for their group whereas NB Healers have only had extra damage and now I don't even provide that with absolutely nothing else to offer the group. It's literally just a meaningless novelty build now because I could do the same on a Warden or Templar and get better results overall.

That fact that you can't see any of this being a problem just means that you're the blind one, not Dracan or I. You go on being wrong for all I care, I'm done with you.

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

It was NB but the PTS notes have completed gutted him to a point that I'm currently constructing a Mausoleum for him at my house to commemorate his memory.

Now, it'll be my Warden.

Lol... gutted? Please, stop being dramatic.

Listen, ask anyone that knows me and they'll all say that I'm dramatic. However, they also know that my dramatic nature comes from how passionate I am on a given topic and depending how deep that passion runs, the more dramatic I get. The fact that my cheap a** has actually dropped over 250k in furniture plans, mats, etc. as well as the mil to buy the Coldharbour house SOLELY to create a Mausoleum for this endeavor goes to show just how passionate I am about this.

My NB healer has been gutted; that is how I truly and honestly feel about the PTS changes. This isn't a simple matter of just adapt since there's nothing to adapt to. There's no utility in my class I can use to supplement my healing, no alternative set up that would yield better results, it's just a straight nerf to the aggressive playstyle of NB healers that does the exact opposite of making healers feel more useful in dungeons.

This bastardization of the entire playstyle of NB Healer has done NOTHING to make myself, or anyone that plays NB Healers, feel more useful in dungeons. It makes us feel even more useless than ever and I'll be DAMNED if you think I'm just going to take your statement laying down.

You can take it however you want honestly. Magblade healing will be absolutely fine next patch. You lost minor dps via funnel (which is optional now anyways) and refreshing path. Its not gutted. Frankly HPS on magblade has historically been above the other healers on average, even with the nerf to 2 ally targeting on funnel health (which itself was a nerf that many inexperienced claimed ruined nb healers at the time as well) so taking the loss of HPS by using the swallow soul morph to cushion the price of healthy offering is more than adequate, and the support dps loss is only marginal in the refreshing path dmg removal.

Solid end game trial groups never needed the extra damage once said group was optimized especially with how few enrage timers are in this game. The benefit of nb healer in that environment became relatively moot. In pvp you should have never been using funnel health to begin with since the change to the current healthy offering. Refreshing path no longer catching stealth does suck but oh well. In 4 mans as well, funnel health is completely unnecessary, with ***, mutagen and path, if you want to add a 13k crit spammable, use swallow soul. This nerf is hardly game breaking, and to suggest nb healers are gutted (lol) is absurd. The discussion for nb healer needs should encompasses group synergy options, not concerns over its HPS and DPS. Also group wide major expedition post expedition duration nerfs is going to be a valuable tool for small groups in pvp via resource alleviation for allies since they will have to reapply major exp more frequently otherwise come murkmire.

Anyone that is seriously damaged by these nerfs to the point of benching their healblade, i would posit were never really good nb healers to begin with. Sorry.

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

@Silver_Strider Preach.

Blind leading the blind

Hey! The fact that I have glasses have nothing to do with it! We are people too. ;(

But seriously, you have no idea what you're talking about. Unlike other classes, a nb healer's main utility was its capability to do instill large amounts of damage while being able to granted ample healing at the same time. By nerving the damage of the two skills that helped further the playstyle of an aggressively based healer IS a nerf. Outside of this, we have no class utility that we can bring to a group. We don't have an in class resource restorer, or no way to buff health passively (War horn was the only way, but guess what that got nerfed too :P). We can't give group wide resist buffs aside from major protection which no one even uses. We can't give extra spell damage or weapon damage or spell crit; we can only give extra weapon crit which can situationally be useless to groups.

Next up you claim that no nb worth their salt should use funnel health in PvP, and to that I say "You're an idiot." In BGs for example, funnel health is AMAZING to use. Being able to pressure enemies, while systemically keeping a HoT on your allies at the same time is too good to pass up. You would know this, if you knew how PvP works. Then you go to say that path is a group wide buff for others in PvP for the expedition buff and that it's good. Well, again. Idiot. There is a skill, perhaps you hear of it? It's a little friend I like to call Rapid Maneuvers. You know, the skill that gives the expedition buff AND a mount speed buff for about 30 seconds? The skill that lasts about 15 times as lost as PATH? Well listen here, this skill exists so REJOICE you no longer have to use one skill over and over again! YAYYYYYYYY!!!!

Oh also, what group in PvE or PvP do you know that would intentionally stack on path for healing? Cause I'd like their numbers for being, you know. Smart.

So yea, GG you effectively proved how blind YOU really are.

i mean you can keep calling me an idiot thats fine but the rhetoric needs to go man.

Mutagen, allies with proper pvp builds, and healthy offering cover most of your bases. Funnel health hot values are incredibly volatile in pvp due to how they are refreshed in values. Emergency, high burst healing is what matters, and you have numerically the strongest burst heal in the game that ignores los, elevation with zero travel time. Supplementing that game changing ability's price with swallow souls minor vit and in murkmire a full damage tool tip heal for 10 percent more than on live is the much wiser prospect.

Refreshing path costs pennies and will be healing for more in murkmire. And your attempt at a rebutall via maneuvers is a bit ridiculous. Maneuvers is rarely slotted once players are done moving to their location. It costs a healthy amount of stamina is never used mid combat. Paths buff duration is a non factor since its constantly recasted mid combat, in BGs this is a very nice assest to have since you are simultaneously alleviating a heavy resource cost for allies, keeping the buff up, healing for 800 a second in pvp, and keeping shadow barrier passive on yourself active.

And as far as pve goes, nb healers are losing roughly 1200 dps. You will be ok

If you feel these nerfs completely destory nb healing, i simply do not know what to say. The strong nb healers will continue to play them and do well, and seemingly the rest will simply shelve them.

db0ssman wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

And as far as pve goes, nb healers are losing roughly 1200 dps. You will be ok

If you feel these nerfs completely destory nb healing, i simply do not know what to say. The strong nb healers will continue to play them and do well, and seemingly the rest will simply shelve them.

One thing to keep in mind is that this is only 1 of 4 major changes that are decreasing a healblade's off dps.

For example, on my build my main sources of damage in a boss fight are:

Main phase:
Funnel Health
Refreshing path
Heavy Attack
Veil of Blades
Sap Essense

Execute phase
Impale
Heavy attack

The damage from the heavy attack is usually more incidental to the increased healing and resource gain, but I included it anyway. Sap essence is also mostly used to apply major sorcery, making the damage/healing incidental. The majority of the dps I add come from Funnel Health, refreshing path, and impale.

Funnel Health is losing 1/2 its damage outright, refreshing path is losing all its damage, and impale will lose 30% of its casts due to sustain.

The 4th major change I'm referring to is the crit nerf (champion points). NB healers use many different sources for healing instead of spamming just a few strong abilities, which makes it worth having high crit. That also helps keep up DPS while casting relatively few actual attack spells.

So, people aren't just saying this because of one change to refreshing path. If you played a NB healer using NB abilities, you will have closer to a 50% drop in dps.

While i generally dont use impale in my pve builds (usually merc resolve takes that spot, it was not something i included because resource nerfs were still manageable especially for nb healers. The reason i isolated the dps too refreshing path is because i have long since dropped funnel health in favor of swallow soul precisely because i valued the minor vit in pvp and didnt need the funnel health hot in pve, as NB hps has always heen very generous and come murkmire swallow will still do the same damage, so the direct dps loss is from the refreshing nerf. This is for vet 4 mans and vet trials and the builds that is most reliable their will be only marginally effected in my experience. And in pvp, i will continue doing very well BGs and small scale as most of the players that i have had the pleasure of playing with can attest to.

The crit nerf via cp is a non factor because that loss was baked into into minor savagery and minor prophecy. So nb healers only have this net loss in spell crit if a sorc is not present in the group.

NB healers will be fine. Its a nerf but not a build breaking one.

exeeter702 wrote: »

NB healers will be fine. Its a nerf but not a build breaking one.

I'm only pugging when doing dungeons or BGs.
Funnel was my main heal in PvE, since it would provide significant dps and healing and i needed both, since Path and Rapid Regen/Mutagen alone are often not enough to keep players alive and dps players in pugs aren't always great - to put it nicely. Healing Ward was my emergency button (randoms have the tendency to wander arround instead of stacking in front of me, so Healing Ward is superior to Healthy Offering in that case), but this is not a skill i want to spam. Swallow Soul has not been an appealing option for me in PvE, since self survivability has never been an issue (didn't even change morphs for vma).
And the thing with pugs is that i never know what grp i get, but as nb healer i was always useful, not matter what. If dps was low, my own dmg becomes much more valuable than buffs, without having to give up healing - you can never trust randoms to stay alive without healing. If incoming dmg is low and my healing is basically wasted, all my skills would still be valuable because of the added dmg.
Aside from this i simply enjoyed the whole "healing via dealing dmg" playstyle - and this got hit hard. Now a nb healer will feel pretty much like any other healer (i played templar and sorc healer too - and didn't really like it), just with less utility. Ofc a nb can still fulfill the very basic healer tasks of keeping players alive while providing generic support from non class skills, but that's not a whole lot.

In PvP i didn't play a pure healing build, because it is too reliant on a good grp and coordination, but could still provide utility for my allies in form of off healing with pretty much the same class skills as on my PvE healer, but on an overall dmg focused build. This utility will mostly be gone now (only resto skills will remain) and the build will be much more selfish. But then why even play together with others?

Just because your particular build and playstyle doesn't get affected much, doesn't mean that's the only or "right" way to play a nb healer. And for other's the nerfs are significant. It might not break your build, but it will break mine, because both Path and Funnel were core skills in PvE and PvP for dmg and healing.