Maintenance for the week of April 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
Everyone's Talking about CP and Power Creep....Wasn't Power Creep the POINT of CP to Begin With?
-
OrphanHelgen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Te point of CP was to replace vet ranks. That was explicitly stated by Zos. Zos had stated early on they did not yet know how they would remove the vet ranks. It just took them 18-24 months to figure that out.
I have said before, Zos does not seem to try to think through how changes affect the game.
Nothing changed. You still need to get cp 160 (vr16) to equip best gear. It's exactly same as it was, only they removed the veteran NAME not the system itself.
It's different and easier to get because catch up system, enlightment and xp scrolls. They could have done this while veteran levels still existed too. They just changed the name of it really.Edited by OrphanHelgen on October 7, 2018 8:56PMPC, EU server, Ebonheart Pact
Finally a reason not to play League of Legends1 -
jenny32xSoul ShrivenBecause of the recent Summerset event, I think that CP levels are overestimated. You see, for the event I created a character on the NA Server and instead doing stuff with my EU CP 780+ I ran around doing the event and some stuff on the sidelines with a lvl 3 to 7 without CP Points, without any gear but the stuff I picked up on the way and I did quite fine. Flooring a Delve boss solo, had nice Chats with Keelsplitter and the Gryphons all with a basic low Level char. Of course I do have a lot of game experience which comes by getting to CP 780+. And that makes up part of the effectivity of high CP players. When one is in the game long enough to get to CP 780, one simply knows a lot by then.0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭OrphanHelgen wrote: »Te point of CP was to replace vet ranks. That was explicitly stated by Zos. Zos had stated early on they did not yet know how they would remove the vet ranks. It just took them 18-24 months to figure that out.
I have said before, Zos does not seem to try to think through how changes affect the game.
Nothing changed. You still need to get cp 160 (vr16) to equip best gear. It's exactly same as it was, only they removed the veteran NAME not the system itself.
It's different and easier to get because catch up system, enlightment and xp scrolls. They could have done this while veteran levels still existed too. They just changed the name of it really.
Not totally. One of the biggest things that came with that was making cp an account-level stat, while VR's where at character-level. That made a HUGE impact on alts.Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Te point of CP was to replace vet ranks. That was explicitly stated by Zos. Zos had stated early on they did not yet know how they would remove the vet ranks. It just took them 18-24 months to figure that out.
I have said before, Zos does not seem to try to think through how changes affect the game.
I was always confused why they needed a replacment.
It would have been so simple to just remove them with no replacement when the game was still relatively young
The main reason for a replacement is players tend to get upset when you take something away from them. When they did start this process over 3 years ago I had 4 level capped characters, some had more.
In reality they only needed to figure out how to handle the skill points we earned, iirc, we earned a SP per vet level, cut ceased earning attributes originally. Of course Zos logic made things more difficult and added more attribute points post lvl 50, again, iirc. It has been awhile.
Granted, a simpler solution could have ben managed but Zos overthought the situation and we are where we are. Overthinking things is probably what gave us the vet ranks to begin with.
Game designers give us great games but they just do not understand them.
0 -
OrphanHelgen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OrphanHelgen wrote: »Te point of CP was to replace vet ranks. That was explicitly stated by Zos. Zos had stated early on they did not yet know how they would remove the vet ranks. It just took them 18-24 months to figure that out.
I have said before, Zos does not seem to try to think through how changes affect the game.
Nothing changed. You still need to get cp 160 (vr16) to equip best gear. It's exactly same as it was, only they removed the veteran NAME not the system itself.
It's different and easier to get because catch up system, enlightment and xp scrolls. They could have done this while veteran levels still existed too. They just changed the name of it really.
Not totally. One of the biggest things that came with that was making cp an account-level stat, while VR's where at character-level. That made a HUGE impact on alts.
It was still account stat even with veteran levels. Like I said already, only thing that changed was the name. You still need cp160 to equip your gear. Maybe you get the skillpoints easier and the attributes, I wont argue on that.Edited by OrphanHelgen on October 7, 2018 9:34PMPC, EU server, Ebonheart Pact
Finally a reason not to play League of Legends0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OrphanHelgen wrote: »OrphanHelgen wrote: »Te point of CP was to replace vet ranks. That was explicitly stated by Zos. Zos had stated early on they did not yet know how they would remove the vet ranks. It just took them 18-24 months to figure that out.
I have said before, Zos does not seem to try to think through how changes affect the game.
Nothing changed. You still need to get cp 160 (vr16) to equip best gear. It's exactly same as it was, only they removed the veteran NAME not the system itself.
It's different and easier to get because catch up system, enlightment and xp scrolls. They could have done this while veteran levels still existed too. They just changed the name of it really.
Not totally. One of the biggest things that came with that was making cp an account-level stat, while VR's where at character-level. That made a HUGE impact on alts.
It was still account stat even with veteran levels. Like I said already, only thing that changed was the name. You still need cp160 to equip your gear. Maybe you get the skillpoints easier and the attributes, I wont argue on that.
The person you quoted is absolutely correct. Vet ranks needed to be earned per character whereas CP earned across the account.
The difference is huge. Equipping a character with CP 160 gear is pretty small compared to having to level up each individual character to veet 16. Not even close.0 -
ResTandRespeC✭✭✭✭Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »So yeah, I always imagined the CP system as a way for players to gradually get stronger in lieu of vertical progression. The whole idea of "CP is causing power creep, which is a bad thing" seems silly to me. It's an RPG. Players WANT to get stronger over time. That's like, half the point for most RPG fans.
I don't think clearing older content easily is necessarily a bad thing. One tamriel keeps content at least somewhat relevant for everyone, but if Veteran players can breeze through it, isn't that okay? I think that's more fun than constantly being nerfed to stay at some baseline.
As far as new gear sets overperforming goes, I think the main problem is that a lot of the old gear sets were built around metas or playstyles that don't exist anymore. It's not a matter of nerfing new sets, it's buffing the old ones that needs to happen.
TBH I think horizontal progression in general is incredibly flawed and is the root cause of most of our woes in this entire game (that and the content betraying the design goals, but I've got a whole other thread about that), but I guess it's the easiest way to keep the entire game relevant instead of just a handful of zones, so it isn't all bad.
The issue isn"t so much people getting more powerful its that zos has to continually nerf classes and skills to compensate for the power creep which people are arguing makes the classes lose their identity0 -
Kinnahz✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »
In fact, the Champion System has been nerfed so much that sustain is WORSE now at 780 CP than it was at 501 CP!
Fact.Xbox & PC Gamertag: KINNAHZvHRC HM, vAA HM, vSO HM, vMoL HM, TTT, IR, vCR+3, GS, DB, Oax HM, Lyl & Tur HM, Yaseyla & Twelvane HM, Ryelaz/Zilyesset & Orphic HM, vDSA, Unchained, Flawless, Spirit Slayer0 -
ResTandRespeC✭✭✭✭I actualy think set bonuses are a bigger issue.
With 2 sets i can buy off traders my crit can get up to 60% easily. That sends DPS through the roof.
Sure you can get some of those same buffs from CP but its not the night and day difference you get from sets.
We have had those set bonuses forever though and they really weren't a problem originally. Set really aren't much of an issue(besides of course new sets that come out ridiculously op or something but i digress). The problem is that every patch we are given more power for essentially free. With sets you have to make a compromise, ill stack this stat instead of that stat of mix them but have less then if stacked just 1 but get more utility etc etc. With cp on the other hand their used to be compromise, now we can essentially have everything and every patch we have less and less compromises we have to make.0 -
adeptusminor✭✭✭✭I actually don't mind powercreep as long as ZOS continues to release new content that fits where the power creep has led to. The benefits of power creep is it allows less good players/group/more casual players to finally complete content that they might not have been able to in the past, which is always kind of nice.
People are able to finish things like vMOL or even vet dungeons that they would have not been able to. Those same people will likely still stuggle with things like vHOF/vAS+2/cVR+3 until power creep reaches the point where that content will be getting cleared by the more casual players.
As long as ZOS releases challenging content for the end game groups that are currently getting Griffon Heart/Immortal Redeemer etc etc, I don't really see the issue and actually think ZOS should embrace it.Edited by adeptusminor on October 7, 2018 10:33PM0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »So yeah, I always imagined the CP system as a way for players to gradually get stronger in lieu of vertical progression. The whole idea of "CP is causing power creep, which is a bad thing" seems silly to me. It's an RPG. Players WANT to get stronger over time. That's like, half the point for most RPG fans.
There is no such thing as getting stronger in an RPG if challenges increase in difficulty. It's an illusion of progression.
For example. I'm playing Octopath Traveller on my Switch right now. Bosses at level 50 are no easier (or harder) than they were at level 10. This is because each encounter is tailored to be beatable at your current level. If they removed levels from the game entirely and just made all bosses the same difficulty level, nothing would change. The game would be exactly the same as it is now.
Zelda: Breath of the Wild is a game without traditional levels (although you can increase your health and stamina, up to a maximum point). It's one of the highest rated games of all time (with another Zelda game, Ocarina of Time, also in the top-5). There is no need for levels in an RPG. It's a misconception.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭adeptusminor wrote: »I actually don't mind powercreep as long as ZOS continues to release new content that fits where the power creep has led to. The benefits of power creep is it allows less good players/group/more casual players to finally complete content that they might not have been able to in the past, which is always kind of nice.
People are able to finish things like vMOL or even vet dungeons that they would have not been able to. Those same people will likely still stuggle with things like vHOF/vAS+2/cVR+3 until power creep reaches the point where that content will be getting cleared by the more casual players.
As long as ZOS releases challenging content for the end game groups that are currently getting Griffon Heart/Immortal Redeemer etc etc, I don't really see the issue and actually think ZOS should embrace it.
The problem is the rate of release is too slow to keep up with player demand.
They release 1-2 raids per year and 2-4 dungeons (but dungeons don't have leader boards, so no reason to repeat them).
You want your endgame players to be running all the available raids or else they'll lose interest quickly if they're only running the latest one.0 -
OrphanHelgen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OrphanHelgen wrote: »OrphanHelgen wrote: »Te point of CP was to replace vet ranks. That was explicitly stated by Zos. Zos had stated early on they did not yet know how they would remove the vet ranks. It just took them 18-24 months to figure that out.
I have said before, Zos does not seem to try to think through how changes affect the game.
Nothing changed. You still need to get cp 160 (vr16) to equip best gear. It's exactly same as it was, only they removed the veteran NAME not the system itself.
It's different and easier to get because catch up system, enlightment and xp scrolls. They could have done this while veteran levels still existed too. They just changed the name of it really.
Not totally. One of the biggest things that came with that was making cp an account-level stat, while VR's where at character-level. That made a HUGE impact on alts.
It was still account stat even with veteran levels. Like I said already, only thing that changed was the name. You still need cp160 to equip your gear. Maybe you get the skillpoints easier and the attributes, I wont argue on that.
The person you quoted is absolutely correct. Vet ranks needed to be earned per character whereas CP earned across the account.
The difference is huge. Equipping a character with CP 160 gear is pretty small compared to having to level up each individual character to veet 16. Not even close.
Champion points came during veteran levels thats what I ment
:D:D:D:DD Edited by OrphanHelgen on October 7, 2018 11:07PMPC, EU server, Ebonheart Pact
Finally a reason not to play League of Legends0 -
The point of CP was to replace the horrible and mind numbing grind of veteran levels.
CP was mean to have some power to it but that power was supposed to be removed elsewhere and it be part of a whole. Rather than soft and hard caps in the general sense there would be a cap of "how much you could stack" for a stat.
CP however ended up being percentages and ZOS continued to introduce additional levels of damage elsewhere (CP still grants attributes which grants damage for the first 300 CP [formally more])
ZOS needs to at some point sit and figure out where they want progression to be, what speed they want progression, if they want choice and consequence in build design, rebalance all the content so scale works better and CP doesn't make content trivial.
I don't know I still feel like it's a mind-numbing grind right now.0 -
Ashilda_Dragonheart wrote: »The point of CP was to replace the horrible and mind numbing grind of veteran levels.
CP was mean to have some power to it but that power was supposed to be removed elsewhere and it be part of a whole. Rather than soft and hard caps in the general sense there would be a cap of "how much you could stack" for a stat.
CP however ended up being percentages and ZOS continued to introduce additional levels of damage elsewhere (CP still grants attributes which grants damage for the first 300 CP [formally more])
ZOS needs to at some point sit and figure out where they want progression to be, what speed they want progression, if they want choice and consequence in build design, rebalance all the content so scale works better and CP doesn't make content trivial.
I don't know I still feel like it's a mind-numbing grind right now.
I mean it still takes forever to level up for me.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OrphanHelgen wrote: »OrphanHelgen wrote: »OrphanHelgen wrote: »Te point of CP was to replace vet ranks. That was explicitly stated by Zos. Zos had stated early on they did not yet know how they would remove the vet ranks. It just took them 18-24 months to figure that out.
I have said before, Zos does not seem to try to think through how changes affect the game.
Nothing changed. You still need to get cp 160 (vr16) to equip best gear. It's exactly same as it was, only they removed the veteran NAME not the system itself.
It's different and easier to get because catch up system, enlightment and xp scrolls. They could have done this while veteran levels still existed too. They just changed the name of it really.
Not totally. One of the biggest things that came with that was making cp an account-level stat, while VR's where at character-level. That made a HUGE impact on alts.
It was still account stat even with veteran levels. Like I said already, only thing that changed was the name. You still need cp160 to equip your gear. Maybe you get the skillpoints easier and the attributes, I wont argue on that.
The person you quoted is absolutely correct. Vet ranks needed to be earned per character whereas CP earned across the account.
The difference is huge. Equipping a character with CP 160 gear is pretty small compared to having to level up each individual character to veet 16. Not even close.
Champion points came during veteran levels thats what I ment:D:D:D:DD
And that has been a long time.
CP, as I stated above, was always intended to be the replacement of vet ranks. The reason for the long delay is it took Zos that long to figure out how to handle removing vet ranks without pissing players off. They essentially said as much.
0 -
DanteYoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Why the hell would we need to feel more powerful.. after cp 160 the whole cp garbage becomes a pointless grind for nothing...
Actually Vet ranks were a pointless grind for nothing as well..Edited by DanteYoda on October 8, 2018 4:58AM0