10k difference in parse between StamBlade and StamSorc

ArchMikem · October 2018

I've chalked it up to the StamSorc's utter lack of hard hitting spammables and an execute mostly. Perhaps I'm messing up the Sorc's rotation more than I do my StamBlade's but the gigantic difference in parse is confounding. I got to 34.3k on my StamBlade last night while my StamSorc, with gold Hundings and Automatons and a practiced rotation, 23k best. At a loss over how I could possibly make her better, besides farming Relequen.

Builds;

StamBlade:
5pc Hundings, 5pc Spriggans, 2pc Selenes
Dual Daggers/Bow
38.6k Stam
1,170 Stam Recovery

Focus > Swap > Leeching > Hail > LA > Poison Arrow > LA > Caltrops > Swap > LA > Trap > LA > Blood Craze > Focus Proc > LA > Surprise Attack x4 > Focus Proc > LA (Killer's Blade at 25%)

StamSorc:
5pc Hundings, 5pc Automatons, 2pc Sellistrix
Dual Dagger & Axe/Bow
40.3k Stam
1,600 Stam Recovery

Crit Surge > Hail > LA > Poison Arrow > LA > Caltrops > Swap > LA > Trap > LA > Hurricane > LA > Blood Craze > LA > Bloodthirst x4 > LA > Swap

Silver_Strider · October 2018

Your Stamblade has about 10k extra penetration over your StamSorc due to Spriggans and Surprise attack alone. Add to that Minor Berserk from Grim Focus as well as your StamSorc using Sellistrix over Selene like your Stamblade and it seems like a given your Stamblade will outperform your StamSorc

pteam · October 2018

A lot of this is user error.

First of all if your gonna compare they should wear the same sets.

Second, you need a lot of practice with your rotations. I just hit 58k with imperfect relequin and ravager, and I’m on console and there are people hitting higher than me. Your way off, so you need to practice on the dummmy a lot more.

McCloskey10_5_13 · October 2018

pteam wrote: »

A lot of this is user error.

First of all if your gonna compare they should wear the same sets.

Second, you need a lot of practice with your rotations. I just hit 58k with imperfect relequin and ravager, and I’m on console and there are people hitting higher than me. Your way off, so you need to practice on the dummmy a lot more.

Not trying to derail this, but I'm curious and it seems somewhat relevant since he's talking about rotations, what does your rotation look like to hit that kind of number? Is it static? I ask because I'm also on console and have a stamblade I'm working out a rotation for, but our buff tracker just seems to awful for anything but a memorized static rotation, but I didn't think they usually got as high.

pteam · October 2018

McCloskey10_5_13 wrote: »

pteam wrote: »

A lot of this is user error.

First of all if your gonna compare they should wear the same sets.

Second, you need a lot of practice with your rotations. I just hit 58k with imperfect relequin and ravager, and I’m on console and there are people hitting higher than me. Your way off, so you need to practice on the dummmy a lot more.

Not trying to derail this, but I'm curious and it seems somewhat relevant since he's talking about rotations, what does your rotation look like to hit that kind of number? Is it static? I ask because I'm also on console and have a stamblade I'm working out a rotation for, but our buff tracker just seems to awful for anything but a memorized static rotation, but I didn't think they usually got as high.

Sure man, here is a recording of my solo stamblade parse on console - https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/its-pteam/video/61301609 . I also have a 57k solo magblade parse and a 70k magblade raid parse on there you can see. I’m sure I could get the raid parse a little higher but I never really get to do raid parses. Hopefully the vid helps, gear is shown at the end of vid

jcm2606 · October 2018

Firstly, as other people have said, when comparing classes, you need to have the same gear. Go Hunding's + Spriggan + Velidreth, or another monster set that is easy to proc on all classes. Also run the same mundus, either Warrior or Lover. Also run either dual daggers or dagger+axe on both characters.

Secondly, what is your weapon damage? Crit? Penetration? Knowing these will help pinpoint where the extra damage might be coming from.

Thirdly, Bloodthirst isn't really a good spammable nowadays, as most people typically run it in conjunction with the Maelstrom dual wield set, to buff the rest of your single target dot's. Maelstrom dual wield isn't that good nowadays, a 5-piece set being more preferable, so Bloodthirst isn't that popular anymore. If you have Psijic Order, run Crushing Weapon. If you don't, run Shrouded Daggers.

And lastly, keep in mind that Surprise Attack grants Major Fracture, while nothing on stamsorc does. You'll have 5280 extra physical pen on your stamblade, so your damage will naturally be higher against a target dummy. It might be good to have a friend with a tank taunt the dummy, applying Major Fracture. Do it for both classes to make it fair, and work out if he should taunt the dummy every few seconds or so.

ArchMikem · October 2018

pteam wrote: »

A lot of this is user error.

First of all if your gonna compare they should wear the same sets.

Second, you need a lot of practice with your rotations. I just hit 58k with imperfect relequin and ravager, and I’m on console and there are people hitting higher than me. Your way off, so you need to practice on the dummmy a lot more.

Assuming I actually want 58k+ and hold that to be a standard?

Why would I compare two different classes using the same exact sets? My StamSorc is wearing Automatons over Spriggans because it compliments it's majority physical damage skills. As far as I'm concerned my StamBlade's 34k is perfect. Everyone knows 25k is the basic standard needed to complete most content in the game, which makes my parse more than adequate. The point being was why the StamSorc parse was so much lower.

witchdoctor · October 2018

ArchMikem wrote: »

pteam wrote: »

A lot of this is user error.

First of all if your gonna compare they should wear the same sets.

Second, you need a lot of practice with your rotations. I just hit 58k with imperfect relequin and ravager, and I’m on console and there are people hitting higher than me. Your way off, so you need to practice on the dummmy a lot more.

Assuming I actually want 58k+ and hold that to be a standard?

Why would I compare two different classes using the same exact sets? My StamSorc is wearing Automatons over Spriggans because it compliments it's majority physical damage skills. As far as I'm concerned my StamBlade's 34k is perfect. Everyone knows 25k is the basic standard needed to complete most content in the game, which makes my parse more than adequate. The point being was why the StamSorc parse was so much lower.

1. Damn, you come off as passive aggressive. Ask for help, and crap on the hand that helps you.

2. You would want to use the same sets to find out WHY you are so off.

3. We get the point. People have tried to help. You don't seem to want to take it.

ArchMikem · October 2018

witchdoctor wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

pteam wrote: »

A lot of this is user error.

First of all if your gonna compare they should wear the same sets.

Second, you need a lot of practice with your rotations. I just hit 58k with imperfect relequin and ravager, and I’m on console and there are people hitting higher than me. Your way off, so you need to practice on the dummmy a lot more.

Assuming I actually want 58k+ and hold that to be a standard?

Why would I compare two different classes using the same exact sets? My StamSorc is wearing Automatons over Spriggans because it compliments it's majority physical damage skills. As far as I'm concerned my StamBlade's 34k is perfect. Everyone knows 25k is the basic standard needed to complete most content in the game, which makes my parse more than adequate. The point being was why the StamSorc parse was so much lower.

1. Damn, you come off as passive aggressive. Ask for help, and crap on the hand that helps you.

2. You would want to use the same sets to find out WHY you are so off.

3. We get the point. People have tried to help. You don't seem to want to take it.

1. I didn't ask for help, I asked why one class had a parse worse than another. Silver Strider was the one that gave a succinct and enlightening answer.

2. How would putting the same sets provide any insights, exactly? They're different classes, different skills, different damage types. The same sets would perform differently on them.

3. I've read all the posts here so far and taken in what people have said, again, like what Silver said about a Nightblade's Pen. The reason I only replied to pteam and the way I did was because he came off as condescending, throwing his gigantic parse around like it's something everyone should be expected to do and implied I haven't practiced at all even though I have three years on the game.

jcm2606 · October 2018

ArchMikem wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

pteam wrote: »

A lot of this is user error.

First of all if your gonna compare they should wear the same sets.

Second, you need a lot of practice with your rotations. I just hit 58k with imperfect relequin and ravager, and I’m on console and there are people hitting higher than me. Your way off, so you need to practice on the dummmy a lot more.

Assuming I actually want 58k+ and hold that to be a standard?

Why would I compare two different classes using the same exact sets? My StamSorc is wearing Automatons over Spriggans because it compliments it's majority physical damage skills. As far as I'm concerned my StamBlade's 34k is perfect. Everyone knows 25k is the basic standard needed to complete most content in the game, which makes my parse more than adequate. The point being was why the StamSorc parse was so much lower.

1. Damn, you come off as passive aggressive. Ask for help, and crap on the hand that helps you.

2. You would want to use the same sets to find out WHY you are so off.

3. We get the point. People have tried to help. You don't seem to want to take it.

1. I didn't ask for help, I asked why one class had a parse worse than another. Silver Strider was the one that gave a succinct and enlightening answer.

2. How would putting the same sets provide any insights, exactly? They're different classes, different skills, different damage types. The same sets would perform differently on them.

3. I've read all the posts here so far and taken in what people have said, again, like what Silver said about a Nightblade's Pen. The reason I only replied to pteam and the way I did was because he came off as condescending, throwing his gigantic parse around like it's something everyone should be expected to do and implied I haven't practiced at all even though I have three years on the game.

1. You really did, though. You asked why one class parsed worse than the other, which is asking for help on working out why that class is performing worse. As we've outlined, your parses aren't exactly flawless, due to the disparity in sets, lack of compensation for the lost penetration on stamsorc, usage of outdated skills in your stamsorc rotation, and lack of other stats important to figuring out why your stamsorc is parsing so far below your stamblade.

2. You want to look at just the difference in the class kits, nothing else. Running different gear setups adds other factors to consider, and can further widen the DPS gap, so you want to run the same gear setup on both classes to ensure you're just looking at the class kit. As an example, Spriggan will always perform better than Automaton on a dummy parse, as penetration is always more valuable than weapon damage (up until the cap), and it will buff all damage, not just physical. Selene also has a bit higher proc chance (on a more specific damage type), and a higher tooltip, so you'd want to replace it with a monster set that is good on both, such as Velidreth or Kra'gh.

getemshauna · October 2018

All staminas have similiar ST dps, with a difference nb can sustain it.

Dracan_Fontom · October 2018

Here I thought no one used Sellistrix cause it was useless. My bad. :P

Seriously though, you are being passive aggressive. Silver wasn't the only one trying to help, which he didn't have to do either.

oXI_Viper_IXo · October 2018

It's like you're asking why a Lamborghini is faster around a track than a Ferrari but you decided to equip the Ferrari with snow tires. Not a very good scientific test here.

DocFrost72 · October 2018

If you want to test them identically, raid buff them. That eliminates (or at least will bring closer in line) stamblade pen bonus, minor berserk, and sustain advantages.

Wear the exact same sets, or your set difference can mess with the results.

Same food, same stone, you want them to be as identical as possible. Except for cp: nightblade has a lot more direct damage going for it.

Tell us what the tests say then.

hedna123b14_ESO · October 2018

It's a l2p issue...classes are within 2k dps of each other

ArchMikem · October 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Your Stamblade has about 10k extra penetration over your StamSorc due to Spriggans and Surprise attack alone. Add to that Minor Berserk from Grim Focus as well as your StamSorc using Sellistrix over Selene like your Stamblade and it seems like a given your Stamblade will outperform your StamSorc

You helped me realize I've underestimated the impact penetration really has. After replacing Spriggans with Draugr Hulk tonight because i wanted more Max Stam for my StamBlade, my parse lost 4k, even with a near perfect rotation.

Its making me think about combining Spriggans with Automatons on my Sorc to see what it does.

Sparr0w · October 2018

If you were to test your StamSorc with the same buffs your Stamblade already has in its kit you'd see they're actually closer than you'd think.

My Stamblade is at 53k, my stamsorc is at 50k if they have the same buffs (could be higher but I'm a magicka main so don't play these much).

For accurate comparisons check Liko's videos on YouTube for this PTS cycle.

TroodonsBite · October 2018

I’d also suggest moving hurricane to the start of your rotation. You’re missing out on a bit of damage at the beginning.

MashmalloMan · October 2018

TroodonsBite wrote: »

I’d also suggest moving hurricane to the start of your rotation. You’re missing out on a bit of damage at the beginning.

Starting with hurricane is a bad idea, the skill hits too early with its range adding 2-3 seconds before other high DMG skills begin in the parse where other classes don't have that issue.

Do this.. have your major brutality up via pots or if you prefer to save the money (although you need major savagery too), Crit surge pre buff. Rearming trap then endless hail, both those skills take time to arm so by the time they start doing DMG you have minor force and your highest DPS skill running.

shack80 · October 2018

Stamblade gets the major fracture from the spamable so it will always outperform stamsorc unless things change.

Sparr0w · October 2018

Marshall1289 wrote: »

TroodonsBite wrote: »

I’d also suggest moving hurricane to the start of your rotation. You’re missing out on a bit of damage at the beginning.

Starting with hurricane is a bad idea, the skill hits too early with its range adding 2-3 seconds before other high DMG skills begin in the parse where other classes don't have that issue.

Do this.. have your major brutality up via pots or if you prefer to save the money (although you need major savagery too), Crit surge pre buff. Rearming trap then endless hail, both those skills take time to arm so by the time they start doing DMG you have minor force and your highest DPS skill running.

I tend to activate hurricane from distance then hail while walking forwards, then trap > caltops > pi etc.

but starting with Trap > Hail > Hurricane is fine too

oXI_Viper_IXo · October 2018

ArchMikem wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Your Stamblade has about 10k extra penetration over your StamSorc due to Spriggans and Surprise attack alone. Add to that Minor Berserk from Grim Focus as well as your StamSorc using Sellistrix over Selene like your Stamblade and it seems like a given your Stamblade will outperform your StamSorc

You helped me realize I've underestimated the impact penetration really has. After replacing Spriggans with Draugr Hulk tonight because i wanted more Max Stam for my StamBlade, my parse lost 4k, even with a near perfect rotation.

Its making me think about combining Spriggans with Automatons on my Sorc to see what it does.

Sprig + Auto on a stamsorc is a great combo.

Maryal · October 2018

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

It's a l2p issue...classes are within 2k dps of each other

yep

swirve · October 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Your Stamblade has about 10k extra penetration over your StamSorc due to Spriggans and Surprise attack alone. Add to that Minor Berserk from Grim Focus as well as your StamSorc using Sellistrix over Selene like your Stamblade and it seems like a given your Stamblade will outperform your StamSorc

StamBlade will outperform an equally geared and lvld StamSorc all day and night...

twofaced · October 2018

LOL that dude bragging about his 58k DPS abusing a bug. Good luck next patch

hedna123b14_ESO · October 2018

twofaced wrote: »

LOL that dude bragging about his 58k DPS abusing a bug. Good luck next patch

What bug

ImmortalCX · October 2018

Night Mothers Gaze for the stam sorc?

Silver_Strider · October 2018

swirve wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Your Stamblade has about 10k extra penetration over your StamSorc due to Spriggans and Surprise attack alone. Add to that Minor Berserk from Grim Focus as well as your StamSorc using Sellistrix over Selene like your Stamblade and it seems like a given your Stamblade will outperform your StamSorc

StamBlade will outperform an equally geared and lvld StamSorc all day and night...

Wasn't arguing that, was just stating some of the problems OP was having between the 2 class, pointing out aspects that can be influenced and not limited to the classes themselves, such as the Penetration value difference in his test.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · October 2018

You arent comparing apples to apples. To objectively compare parses, you need to make sure they are getting the same buffs debuffs that you would reasonably expect from a good group. One problem, is that NB has more of these naturally than a stam sorc, so you need a buffer to level the playing field.

Furthermore, this is not personal (well maybe it is), but both of those parses are really low. You clearly have rotation issues with both of them, making the parses impossible to compare. You simply arent skilled enough with either class to draw conclusions about their damage potential, and therefore, we should not be using this data to discuss balance.

Also, Relequen will certainly boost DPS, but that is not the primary issue at the moment. You stamblade is getting more buffs/penetration passively, and my guess is, you are better at it based on those parses. You arent even using an optimal spammable on your sorc. Bloodthirst is the healing morph of your worst possible choice for a spam skill.

twofaced wrote: »

LOL that dude bragging about his 58k DPS abusing a bug. Good luck next patch

@twofaced
This is on PTS with standardized buffs, but here you go. That gap would certainly widen totally self buffed, but that is not how the game is actually played when talking for the need to do 6 million worth of damage. Dont blame bugs because you cant do what others can. Very curious as to which "bug" you are referring to.

58k Stamblade

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwAL8ZWLH0s

58k Stamsorc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl5t7d8trBw

ArchMikem wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Your Stamblade has about 10k extra penetration over your StamSorc due to Spriggans and Surprise attack alone. Add to that Minor Berserk from Grim Focus as well as your StamSorc using Sellistrix over Selene like your Stamblade and it seems like a given your Stamblade will outperform your StamSorc

You helped me realize I've underestimated the impact penetration really has. After replacing Spriggans with Draugr Hulk tonight because i wanted more Max Stam for my StamBlade, my parse lost 4k, even with a near perfect rotation.

Its making me think about combining Spriggans with Automatons on my Sorc to see what it does.

Penetration is always your best bet for increasing damage vs any other stat until you get very close to the cap. NBs naturally have more pen because they have a source of major fracture and sorcs do not. This can skew dummy parses, but its not an issue in the actual content because a tank will give you the buff. If you are self buffed (solo), always stack pen first to boost damage.

TroodonsBite · October 2018

Sparr0w wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

TroodonsBite wrote: »

I’d also suggest moving hurricane to the start of your rotation. You’re missing out on a bit of damage at the beginning.

Starting with hurricane is a bad idea, the skill hits too early with its range adding 2-3 seconds before other high DMG skills begin in the parse where other classes don't have that issue.

Do this.. have your major brutality up via pots or if you prefer to save the money (although you need major savagery too), Crit surge pre buff. Rearming trap then endless hail, both those skills take time to arm so by the time they start doing DMG you have minor force and your highest DPS skill running.

I tend to activate hurricane from distance then hail while walking forwards, then trap > caltops > pi etc.

but starting with Trap > Hail > Hurricane is fine too

Oooh this is good to know; I do start with Hurricane then walk towards the dummy starting with endless hail. I’m gonna try starting with trap instead.