Everyone's Talking about CP and Power Creep....Wasn't Power Creep the POINT of CP to Begin With?

Crafts_Many_Boxes · October 2018

So yeah, I always imagined the CP system as a way for players to gradually get stronger in lieu of vertical progression. The whole idea of "CP is causing power creep, which is a bad thing" seems silly to me. It's an RPG. Players WANT to get stronger over time. That's like, half the point for most RPG fans.

I don't think clearing older content easily is necessarily a bad thing. One tamriel keeps content at least somewhat relevant for everyone, but if Veteran players can breeze through it, isn't that okay? I think that's more fun than constantly being nerfed to stay at some baseline.

As far as new gear sets overperforming goes, I think the main problem is that a lot of the old gear sets were built around metas or playstyles that don't exist anymore. It's not a matter of nerfing new sets, it's buffing the old ones that needs to happen.

TBH I think horizontal progression in general is incredibly flawed and is the root cause of most of our woes in this entire game (that and the content betraying the design goals, but I've got a whole other thread about that), but I guess it's the easiest way to keep the entire game relevant instead of just a handful of zones, so it isn't all bad.

Sophocles1 · October 2018

I just wish overland content was a little challenging. Cp points make every character I have invincible. The bad bosses die even before they can finish their opening taunts. That’s fun for like five minutes, then I just wait for a group to trial with.

Turelus · October 2018

The point of CP was to replace the horrible and mind numbing grind of veteran levels.

CP was mean to have some power to it but that power was supposed to be removed elsewhere and it be part of a whole. Rather than soft and hard caps in the general sense there would be a cap of "how much you could stack" for a stat.
CP however ended up being percentages and ZOS continued to introduce additional levels of damage elsewhere (CP still grants attributes which grants damage for the first 300 CP [formally more])

ZOS needs to at some point sit and figure out where they want progression to be, what speed they want progression, if they want choice and consequence in build design, rebalance all the content so scale works better and CP doesn't make content trivial.

casparian · October 2018

"Power creep" is not a synonym for "getting stronger over time". Of course we are supposed to get stronger over time. Power creep is when some game system or mechanic puts players on a path toward inevitably becoming overpowered for the content. Put another way, power creep is when the game's progression mechanics and the game's difficulty design come completely untethered from one another, so that the strength players end up developing is significantly more than what the game expects them to have.

Put even more simply, power creep is when the progression mechanic is so poorly designed that progression ends up trivializing some parts of the content.

Obviously not all of the content in ESO has been made trivial. But that's largely because the devs have reacted to power creep in some pretty heavy-handed ways. For instance, base game vet dungeons have been made trivial by power creep, and in order to avoid DLC dungeons suffering the same fate, the devs have put in a bunch of mechanics that completely ignore player character strength (like mobs in the new Blackrose Prison that deal so much damage there is literally no way to mitigate it) -- instead of actually fixing the root issue that caused power creep in the first place.

Relatedly, the devs have recognized that they need to strip power from players somewhere due to power creep (so that new content isn't just immediately bulldozed by max-CP players), and they have decided to do so by stripping functionality from class abilities and core non-class abilities like Annulment. This has been going on for years.

The end result of the approach the devs have chosen is that some content remains quite difficult and my characters feel less powerful than they used to.

Kuwhar · October 2018

I actualy think set bonuses are a bigger issue.

With 2 sets i can buy off traders my crit can get up to 60% easily. That sends DPS through the roof.

Sure you can get some of those same buffs from CP but its not the night and day difference you get from sets.

srfrogg23 · October 2018

All I know is that my reward for playing the game is that I have earned the privilege of being able to tear through open world mobs like a hot knife through butter. Taking that all into context, it feels good to be able to say that.

Would it be nice to go back to having more challenge? Sure! I even do it on occasion. I'll use alts and refrain from using my CPs - as a PERSONAL CHOICE. It is well within my power to choose to play that way.

As far as the neverending challenge vs progression dynamic goes... I just dont see that treadmill as being particularly enjoyable. I've played plenty of games that forego player choice in favor of a more structured approach to providing challenging content and all I end up with is feeling like my previous efforts were merely "throw away content". It got redundant after a few expansions.

dennissomb16_ESO · October 2018

All MMOs have power creep, players want to get more powerful. CP combined with ever more powerful armor sets, monster sets, potions, etc. all add to power creep. One of the main differences in ESO however is that mobs do not ever become more powerful like most MMO additions/expansions.

Add a new zone with content in ESO and existing players over power it so easily it is almost pointless. Sure they add difficult dungeons but the difficulty is mechanics more then mob strength. If new zones /mobs came in with the same cp level as max players then there could be some fun/challenge but that is not the design of ESO's one world.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · October 2018

casparian wrote: »

"Power creep" is not a synonym for "getting stronger over time". Of course we are supposed to get stronger over time. Power creep is when some game system or mechanic puts players on a path toward inevitably becoming overpowered for the content. Put another way, power creep is when the game's progression mechanics and the game's difficulty design come completely untethered from one another, so that the strength players end up developing is significantly more than what the game expects them to have.

Put even more simply, power creep is when the progression mechanic is so poorly designed that progression ends up trivializing some parts of the content.

Obviously not all of the content in ESO has been made trivial. But that's largely because the devs have reacted to power creep in some pretty heavy-handed ways. For instance, base game vet dungeons have been made trivial by power creep, and in order to avoid DLC dungeons suffering the same fate, the devs have put in a bunch of mechanics that completely ignore player character strength (like mobs in the new Blackrose Prison that deal so much damage there is literally no way to mitigate it) -- instead of actually fixing the root issue that caused power creep in the first place.

Relatedly, the devs have recognized that they need to strip power from players somewhere due to power creep (so that new content isn't just immediately bulldozed by max-CP players), and they have decided to do so by stripping functionality from class abilities and core non-class abilities like Annulment. This has been going on for years.

The end result of the approach the devs have chosen is that some content remains quite difficult and my characters feel less powerful than they used to.

Yeah, I guess it comes down to not agreeing with that approach. IMO it's okay if overland stays stupid easy. It's not stupid easy for low CP players, yet veteran players still can go there for relevant gear / rewards / etc. That's a good thing, because there's reasons for everyone to be there, even if it isn't always for challenging combat. It helps fight against "ghost zones" like you see in MMOs with vertical progression. I still prefer vertical progression, but I admit there are pitfalls.

I'm on the fence about dungeon difficulty (they're between casual and serious content, so it's a tough call), but I think it's fine if trials keep getting harder to match higher CP. That's the approach they should take, not nerfing CP or nerfing player abilities directly. That's the true endgame for most serious PVE players to begin with.

So if the devs just gave up on balancing / nerfing around some standard and instead just focused on making trials that match how strong we're getting without resorting to oneshots or other lazy mechanics, I think everything works out. Their vision of One Tamriel "go anywhere do anything" still works in the casual content, and we have progression in the form of trials.

Nestor · October 2018

A game like this that appeals to all kinds of players is not going to make everyone happy all the time. Also, most people forget how hard this game is for the average player with no CPs, gear or a clue about rotations. So the barrier to entry cant be too high. Then again some content does need to be harder, even for vets. This game has a pretty good range, although it could use a bit more harder content than the the 4 DLC dungeons we get each year. World Bosses were a good start.

At the same time, I enjoy going back to some easier content and sneezing and wiping the mobs. I just dont want everything to be that way.

I would be all for some delves that have self contained stories and quests that will kick your butt if you dont bring your B game, the A game is for HM Trials and HM Vets as now. These new delves should be harder than the publics we have now, maybe have more bosses like Cyrodill Delves.

josiahva · October 2018

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

All MMOs have power creep, players want to get more powerful. CP combined with ever more powerful armor sets, monster sets, potions, etc. all add to power creep. One of the main differences in ESO however is that mobs do not ever become more powerful like most MMO additions/expansions.

Add a new zone with content in ESO and existing players over power it so easily it is almost pointless. Sure they add difficult dungeons but the difficulty is mechanics more then mob strength. If new zones /mobs came in with the same cp level as max players then there could be some fun/challenge but that is not the design of ESO's one world.

What in the world are you talking about? Mobs don't ever become more powerful? Do you not play the DLC dungeons? Those mobs are SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than anything in the non-DLC dungeons...take the minotaurs in HOTR for example...those things dish out huge amounts of damage and take huge amounts of damage even when their special abilities arent taken into account. Even overland mobs in the DLC zones are more difficult than those in the base game zones(not difficult by any means, but slightly less braindead easy)

MrThirtyOddSix · October 2018

We simply need more powerful versions of group content. However, what we get is content that only 1% of players is able to do with high HP / high damage mobs making it boring for casual (me included) players. ZOS usually responds in creating new and I would say crazy mechanics to cater to high end players. Please stop right there! Why not make more mobs? Why not simply keep their health and give them better skills that players have?

I am constantly being irritated at how complex some mechanics have become over years with new DLC to the point I specifically avoid certain dungeons where some mechanics are not fun, but are borderline masochistic to play (aka better have six eyes to watch for all red spots, health meters, team members and another AOE coming...). If that is what "better players" want, sure leave it for them. Give me something simple, nice, and oh the word "repetetive" that would actually make sense to do in dungeons (beyond introducing beefier HP mobs to dish out your limited amount of five skills). Give hordes of mobs to kill and possibly retreat / capture scenarios, without run always to the end of dungeon insanity. That should stop those "elite CP" from doing speed runs and finally cooperating.

Merlin13KAGL · October 2018

The point of CP was supposed to be customization, a way to fine tune a character build and get slight bonuses as a result.

The result of CP, especially coupled with numerous sets, is circumvention of many of the things CP was supposed to only help ease the pain on.

There was also not scaled content, and zones had different levels of 'bite,' as well.

In short, the circumstance CP was created to alleviate no longer applies, usually to one extreme or the other.

Emma_Overload · October 2018

The Champion System is not a big problem by itself, the problem is how ZOS decides to balance the game in relation to it.

What ZOS should do is simply treat CP as a leveling system, which everyone can understand, instead of a post-leveling progression system. They need to make it clear to the players that 780 CP (or whatever = the current cap) is the MAX LEVEL of a character, and that character is not totally ready for endgame activities until it has reached that level. All endgame content, vet dungeons, trials, arenas and all PvP modes (including Battlegrounds), should be balanced with the expectation that the character has reached the current CP cap. Of course, lower CP players should be allowed to participate in all that content, too, but with the understanding that they are sub-optimal until they are fully leveled.

NewBlacksmurf · October 2018

No, actually the initial point of Champion Points was to completely remove VR (Veteran Levels)
VR was added intentionally to be a power creep...CP was supposedly being introduced to remove that....sadly they the devs said they couldn't remove VR so it was rolled into whats now CP

Years back....below was the plan but you'll find said leader going back saying CP wasn't to remove VR...this is also around the year that the Sub was removed and ESO Plus came about...some of us refer to this as when the lies began.

Quote from one of the designers - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1303290/#Comment_1303290

Old article: http://dulfy.net/2014/07/12/eso-paul-sage-the-road-ahead-qa-transcript/
(edited out other content in place of actual interview)

VR Rank Overhaul

Our hope for the VR system initially is that it would gate items so you would always have this item progression to chase up. Behind the scenes we also had seasons idea where you VR ranks would be wiped and you would start fresh at a new season. That whole system just didn’t have enough moment to moment rewards. There is nothing that is a predictable reward to chase after.
For some people there is a level of challenge they really enjoy but there is also a large number of people who don’t like the challenges. The ramp up in difficulty between 1-50 and the VR hits you really hard. We have a lot of difficult things in the game like the trials already. We want players to still have fun when you reach the VR zones.

In the first phase of VR rank overhaul, we lowered the difficulty of the VR zones to make the difficulty more consistent. For those players who are after challenges we will have something for them later.
Lack of constant rewards make the VR system grindy.

In phase 2, which arrive with Update 4 most likely. We will remove the Veteran Points system and have normal experience gains direct the growth of the Veteran System. Also, we’ll increase the amount of XP granted in PvP but we will add some measures to prevent farming.
Different Cyrodiil campaign for those below 50 and those in the VR ranks in the future.
When we take away VR points, we will not take away VR ranks so that won’t affect itemization and the gear you can wear.

Champion System (VR Overhaul Phase 3)

This will replace the Veteran system. This is a system where you are constantly adding points (Champion Points) into passives that will make your character stronger – i.e. critical hit or spell defense. You will add % that will increase these rating. It is a bit like the alternative advancement system (AA) in other games (i..e EQ1, EQ2)

It will be account wide so once you open up the Champion rank you will be able to take these points and apply to other characters. The points you put in one character won’t affect your other characters and there is a built in respec that will be fairly straightforward and easy to get.
Put in an hour and you will get one of those points for example. Experience past 50 are converted into champion points.
Any alts you make will be affected by the champion points already earned on your account. You just cannot earn champion points until you are level 50.

Enlightenment bonus – it is like rested experience so the longer you log off the more bonus you get.
In the Champion system, we will have more gear introduced by seasons where there is no level requirement. They will be harder to get. Season 8 gear will be more powerful than season 7 gear for example but the season 7 gear will be more readily available. There will be a solution for crafting as well.

Champion rating – Look at your gear as well as all your points in the champion system to see if you can take on a certain content or not. The Champion rating will be introducing some divide in the community but it based more on gear rather than your points to make it easier to catch up.

New itemization coming out as well in update 4– New sets coming out, populate bosses with different set pieces.

CatchMeTrolling · October 2018

When people refer to power creep they’re usually talking about how easy the game is becoming or how far the gap is between new players and vets.

mikemacon · October 2018

Yes.

God forbid we actually feel more powerful as we progress.

::turns and stares into camera::

casparian · October 2018

mikemacon wrote: »

Yes.

God forbid we actually feel more powerful as we progress.

::turns and stares into camera::

That’s just it though — classes don’t feel more powerful than they used to before we had so much CP. So much power and functionality has been stripped from our classes because percentage boosts from CP are doing the job class abilities were originally meant to.

StamWhipCultist · October 2018

best would be if we would be depraved of any progression after lvl 50.
Oh, boy would it be balanced then.

[/sarcasm end]

Ratzkifal · October 2018

Am I the only one around here who doesn't want to become more powerful after hitting max level? I played a lot of pvp back in the day and gained almost 30 level that way back when veteran ranks were still a thing. Returning to the zones at level 50 felt awful as every enemy stood no chance against my godlike powers that would oneshot everything, even bosses.

If people keep demanding to get stronger, old content must become relatively weaker otherwise there is no "sense of progression". But thinking critically about it, who honestly wants that? If you want no challenge in the game whatsoever then why do you even play in the first place? And if new content has to be tougher than the old stuff to give you a challenge again after you "progressed so much", then isn't that power creep and pre-OneTamriel all over again?

What I would like to see is experience and game knowledge progress being rewarded instead, but that's just wishful thinking on my part, since there is no way you can keep this type of progression up for the lifetime of an MMO.

DHale · October 2018

Person gets a prize, if only the ESO combatant Khanner McGregor was training for power creep. Yes getting stronger is the whole point.

idk · October 2018

The original implementation of CP had a cap of 3600. Zos figured it would take the average player over a year, but less than two years to reach the Cap. They actually said something like that when they were getting ready to release it.

Of course this shows Zos lacks understanding about how changes they make affect the game due to their lack of actually playing the game and eventually capped it. It was really absurd they could be so unenlightened about their own game.

But yes, adding 30 CP a quarter is a slow power creep, but very slow can was crushed a bit when Zos did the second major change to CP in Morrowind. The issue is, to date, Zos has still not figured out how to manage this game. In part they do lack a vision even though they have claimed one multiple times.

Most games have a very simplistic design. Gear is tiered and there is very little choice in builds. Give the game some time, raise the cap and have people grind for gear again starting at the lower tier. ESO does not have such a system and when they have raised the level cap before it was pointless.

Nebthet78 · October 2018

Turelus wrote: »

The point of CP was to replace the horrible and mind numbing grind of veteran levels.

CP was mean to have some power to it but that power was supposed to be removed elsewhere and it be part of a whole. Rather than soft and hard caps in the general sense there would be a cap of "how much you could stack" for a stat.
CP however ended up being percentages and ZOS continued to introduce additional levels of damage elsewhere (CP still grants attributes which grants damage for the first 300 CP [formally more])

ZOS needs to at some point sit and figure out where they want progression to be, what speed they want progression, if they want choice and consequence in build design, rebalance all the content so scale works better and CP doesn't make content trivial.

They need to bring the soft and hard caps back. That's the only way they are going to fix the issue they created from the beginning with their whole combat system without continuously decimating the middle tier of players with each update.

Maryal · October 2018

The problem is not the CP system. If it were then you should be able to take a group of high CP leveled players, take away their proc sets, monster helms, enhanced weapons, perfected gear, set jewelry, etc., and put them in plain armor, give them plain weapons, plain jewelry and crown store food/potions -- they should be able to clear content just as easily as with their normal gear ... but that won't happen BECAUSE it's not CP that lets them breeze through content.

I can understand why people think it's CP. A low CP player wearing the same gear, same race, same class gets frustrated because they can't perform as well as a high leveled CP player. A high level CP player looks at the lower level CP player who doesn't perform as well as they do. Both blame CP. At first glance, that would seem logical. What neither of them realizes is how much experience, mastery of the game/game mechanics factors in.

Lower level CP player sees videos of content creators making (whatever) look so easy -- parses, clearing dungeons, trials, etc. Copy/paste build. Failure. Blame CP.
It took a long time for high CP level players to reach the CP cap. Mastery of the game kind of sneaks up on you. One day you notice that the game has become pretty easy for you, but not so easy for your lower CP level friend. Blame CP for the disparity.

Blaming CP is easy because it's what we see on the surface. While I agree that CP is part of the problem, it also happens to be the smallest part. If we look below the surface we can see the problem as having 3 prongs:
Prong 1 - the difficulty and frustration faced by new players who are low level CP but want to reach the CP cap
Prong 2 - lack of experience and misinformation about: the game, game mechanics and combat (offensive as well as defensive).
Prong 3- The flood of gear into the game with powerful stats/bonuses that are used by less-experienced players as a substitute for experience/game mastery.

Getting to the CP cap used to be a goal people were eager to attain. Unfortunately, because the cap is now so high, and because it gets pushed up every quarter, it's a source of a frustration for newer players (as well as an easy scapegoat for not performing as well as highly experienced, CP capped players).

First phase (addresses prong 1): when players reach level 50 they are awarded a lump sum of CP points based on a sliding scale. If they are under 100 CP when reaching level 50 they are awarded 150 CP ... at the other end of the spectrum, players who are at the CP cap when reaching level 50 are awarded 10 CP.

Second phase (addresses prong 1 & 2): The devs would need to create a quest line that is fun and somewhat challenging to low CP level players (who have reached level 50). Now, keep in mind that newer players need to learn both defensive and offensive combat techniques when fighting members of the various classes. To do this means information + practice. The quest line is designed to have the player engage in combat against enemies of each class, so the enemies will be comprised of one class at a time. The quest line is done solo, but the player will be accompanied by an NPC guide. The guide will offer various suggestions via dialog options on how to fight defensively/offensively against certain class mechanics. Also, the NPC guide will offer the player the opportunity to temporarily use skills/abilities that the player hasn't unlocked yet (can only be used in the quest area). As the player moves through the quest line, they will gain first hand knowledge/experience (at a foundational level) of fighting against each of the classes. When the player finishes the quest line, they are awarded another lump sum of CP points based on a sliding scale (if under 200 CP points when finishing the quest line, they are awarded 150 CP points, and at the other end of the spectrum, if they are at CP cap max, they are awarded 10 CP points).

Third phase (addresses prong 3): Devs need to stop introducing increasingly powerful sets / equipment unless they want to really increase the difficulty level of the top-side quest line content as well as dungeons and trials. A better suggestion is, with each DLC, retire some of the older sets and reintroduce them as new sets with a new name but with a variance on the bonuses provided. Note: Once the CP cap has reached 900-950 investment in CP is more likely to be made in both stamina and magica nodes - thus there will be an increased need for armor for hybrid builds. Also, focusing less on introducing new sets that keep increasing power (continually upping dps) leaves more room to create new dungeons/trials whose difficulty is measured in terms of complexity as opposed to difficulty measured in terms of hp.

Note: As the CP cap continues to rise, there will eventually come a time when the 2 lump-sum awards will need to be slightly adjusted upward to keep the disparity of the gap within a reasonable range.

Note: The quest line is only intended to provide a foundation of information and experience the player can draw from and build upon as they continue to play the game.

GreenhaloX · October 2018

No issues with the CP system in this game. Let's not mess it up. 30 CP with every new DLC/contents is one of what makes this game so good. What would make it better is every 2 months reoccurrence (or monthly.)

Emma_Overload · October 2018

The "Power Creep" from sets like Zaan and Earthgore and Sloads and Anguish is massively more problematic than the tiny quarterly gains from the CP system.

In fact, the Champion System has been nerfed so much that sustain is WORSE now at 780 CP than it was at 501 CP!

Valrien · October 2018

No one wanted CP to begin with either. Your point?

OrphanHelgen · October 2018

Turelus wrote: »

The point of CP was to replace the horrible and mind numbing grind of veteran levels.

CP was mean to have some power to it but that power was supposed to be removed elsewhere and it be part of a whole. Rather than soft and hard caps in the general sense there would be a cap of "how much you could stack" for a stat.
CP however ended up being percentages and ZOS continued to introduce additional levels of damage elsewhere (CP still grants attributes which grants damage for the first 300 CP [formally more])

ZOS needs to at some point sit and figure out where they want progression to be, what speed they want progression, if they want choice and consequence in build design, rebalance all the content so scale works better and CP doesn't make content trivial.

It was still the same grind as they just converted vr16 gear with cp160. The reason it's not that amount of grind anymore, is due to the xp increase and enlightment. The real reason for champion points, was to make people having the feeling of constant gaining progression. We can get this progression feeling by adding title, achievements or useless passives like some gold increase or some stuff that doesn't matter that much.

OrphanHelgen · October 2018

Valrien wrote: »

No one wanted CP to begin with either. Your point?

Ye exactly. The power creep subject started even before the champion point system. It's nothing new.

Valrien · October 2018

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

No one wanted CP to begin with either. Your point?

Ye exactly. The power creep subject started even before the champion point system. It's nothing new.

Not especially, as soft caps stopped most power creep from being an issue (this was before most of the cancerous proc sets were an issue as well)

Soft caps, hard level 50 cap, mandatory sub, no more CP will restore ESO to its former glory

idk · October 2018

Te point of CP was to replace vet ranks. That was explicitly stated by Zos. Zos had stated early on they did not yet know how they would remove the vet ranks. It just took them 18-24 months to figure that out.

I have said before, Zos does not seem to try to think through how changes affect the game.

Valrien · October 2018

idk wrote: »

Te point of CP was to replace vet ranks. That was explicitly stated by Zos. Zos had stated early on they did not yet know how they would remove the vet ranks. It just took them 18-24 months to figure that out.

I have said before, Zos does not seem to try to think through how changes affect the game.

I was always confused why they needed a replacment.

It would have been so simple to just remove them with no replacement when the game was still relatively young