MORE THAN HEALS, making Healers wanted in content

swirve · October 2018

Plenty of tools for Healers... that go way beyond healing.

Not as much buff focus as say Neverwinter, but still you can do a lot in ESO.

db0ssman · October 2018

Soundinfinite wrote: »

@db0ssman

Hello, and thank you for joining the discussion!

I am not exactly sure what your post is stating and/or implying. I feel that either I simply don't understand what you are trying to state, OR we have gotten our wires crossed and there is a misunderstanding in what I have tried to state.

To try and possibly reach and understanding I am going to give a few things here as a response to your comment.

This table currently shows how I am interpreting the Penetration of the game. As seen neither Light, Medium, Heavy armor can reach 100% Penetration without having specific Armor Sets, Class Skills, or Weapon Skills slotted. Even then only Magicka can reach this cap.

This also takes into consideration 100 CP into Weapon or Spell Penetration, which is not truly conceivable on a VIABLE build. And thus these numbers actually favor a lower Penetration than what most Players face.

This is why the game's META has come to favor the Tank ALSO wearing Alkosh in order to reach a teams Penetration Goals.

With the Alkosh set in play, and CP put into a reasonable allocation the table changes to this.

As you can see now Light Armor as now met the Spell Penetration cap; However Stamina still has a bit of a ways to go.

Now you can add in a Templar running the Skill Power of the Light and adding an additional 1320 Spell and Physical Penetration. But that requires a specific class and specific skill in use. Since this is so situational I do not include this in the calculations. However, if you have a specific group you run with, and it includes a Templar with this skill, then by all means it is deductible as well.

What I am championing is to remove Alkosh's penetration and instead give it to the Healer in its Siphon skill line. Alkosh would then be reworked as a STAMINA only DPS set that would provide a Weapon Damage and Crit proc damage on its last 5th trait as well as give a value number in Physical Penetration only. Thus it no longer would be used as a Tanking Set, Would split the penetration level between the TANK AND HEALER instead of being the tanks alone, and would then provide a way for Stamina DPS to reach the penetration cap as its Magicka counterpart.

As such the table NOW changes to look like this.

As you can see, the penetration of Magicka and Stamina is equaled, and the HEALER AND THE TANK TOGETHER reach the teams goals of reaching the Penetration Cap.

I am in no way trying to change the base game's design, or ask for Penetration levels to be lowered, or as you say "put my eggs all in one basket." I am actually taking the Penetration Eggs and moving them to multiple ROLES of play. AS now the TANK is NOT responsible for the entire groups penetration de-buff. It is split between the Healer and Tank and using the current live Penetration caps. Alkosh would move into an elective set for a Stamina Damage Dealer to wear and provide the Stamina half of a group with further penetration. This would be purely elective in a teams make-up as they could forgo this set and still reach the same levels of penetration that are now on live.

In your initial calculations, you are also missing The Lover Mundus w/ 7 divines (-4,196) or sharpened (-2,752). It may be fine to skimp on one or both of those if you are playing in a trial where tanks add debuffs to major enemies and 9 dps can still burn down trash mobs, but in a dungeon you will run into trouble relying on single point armor debuffs. For example, dps that skimp on penetration in a group dungeon will have significantly less dps against trash mobs even if overall boss damage would be similar because a tank is adding pen. It's not to say that people can't make builds where they have less than the cap because slightly less damage to mobs, but more damage to the boss is a better trade off, but with only 2 damage dealers you'd want more like 16k mob penetration and then bumped up to 18 for boss.

In your proposed set-up at the end, you'd actually only have 4.2k penetration while damaging non-boss enemies. Though I guess the healer and tank could go one by one and smack the mobs, but given that at some times you run into 10+ mobs, probably not the most practical solution. In the current system, you could easily have about 16.8 pen on mobs for magicka (like 14ish without sharpened) and then rely on debuffs for the last bit.

This isn't a useful ability in NM dungeons because just the armor bonus & cp is enough to do full damage and then in vet if you lower your penetration to the levels you'd need to make these bonuses worth while, you'd have an incredibly difficult time killing any random mobs that appeared during fights and groups of mobs between fights. That's why I said there would need to be a crazy amount of rebalancing in the game to make adding a single point pen increase for the healer to be a make or break ability. Cause it would be pointless in NM dungeons as is and groups couldn't finish the content in vet dungeons relying on it.

db0ssman · October 2018

You could possibly change the 'absorb' passive on the resto staff skill line to:

some appropriate name: Healing a target with a restoration staff equipped increases the target's spell & weapon penetration by 1600 (3200 for 2 upgrades) for 10 seconds.

This would bypass a lot of the problems with the unreliability of having a single point debuff and since it would require frequent application, it would not likely be picked up by a dps. Since it is replacing a pretty useless passive anyway (sorry solo players, it is pretty much worthless in group content. That's especially true compared to the proposed change), the fact that it won't always be useful isn't a big deal.

Soundinfinite · October 2018

@db0ssman

Changing the passive is a viable option. It doesn't remedy the useless skills, HOWEVER, it does, as you say give the buff to individuals instead of the boss thus, guaranteeing the penetration no matter the target. This is definitely a route that is allowable.

However, I will generalize that the main issue in all group content is the BOSS. Trash mobs, suck, and many times are a nuisance, but not on average a DPS problem...especially in a 4 man dungeon. Trial trash mobs can have a bit more bite to them, but yes you have added DPS to help deal with them. Adds can be an issue in certain boss fights, because you are now dealing with the BOSS and other targets that you want to get burned down but again these are specific instances where adds become a significant hindrance.

Given this, in current game play the Penetration of mobs compared to Bosses is already at a significantly lower point. Yes Alkosh does give added penetration but only 3010. Meaning that just as my proposal has them at 4.2 k penetration. Currently on live the tank can only buff to 7.2k meaning its a jump from 24% to 39% penetration. Adds are currently burned down through sheer raw damage and critical strikes more than penetration maximization, thus I considered the loss negligible.

As far as not including the Lover, I didn't becuase it is build specific, just as I didn't include the Templar or Bow de-buffs. While the Lover is completely viable and many times desired on Stamina DPS builds. It is a DPS loss on Magicka builds and is mostly never recommended, (as Magicka already will reach the cap due to their Light Armor passives). If my changes were implemented as proposed the same would become true for Stamina DPS, and the Lover Mundus would be relegated to PVP play.

Sharpened weapons I didn't include because no-matter which way you cut it in PVE, Nirnhoned+Infused is far superior combination. Sharpened is still strong for PVP play, but in PVE with the de-buff of penetration coming from elsewhere, Sharpened gives a DPS loss comparatively to the other weapon combinations.

NyxWrench · October 2018

Soundinfinite wrote:

This table currently shows how I am interpreting the Penetration of the game. As seen neither Light, Medium, Heavy armor can reach 100% Penetration without having specific Armor Sets, Class Skills, or Weapon Skills slotted. Even then only Magicka can reach this cap.

Another missing point: The Destruction Staff passive which ignores 10% of the enemy's resistance. This won't apply to all magicka, but it will likely apply to most.

Also, why are you only giving Crushing a 50% uptime when used with an Infused trait, which itself drops the cooldown by 50%? Isn't the point of Infused to get close to 100% uptime?

I agree that splitting the responsibility of the buffs and debuffs that help the party between the tank and the healer is definitely needed, but I also agree with db0ssman that having a single-target penetration boost is not as useful.

Without adding in CP or gear or Alkosh, a magicka build using a destruction staff has to have 4857 penetration to reach cap on a boss mob that's getting Breach and Crusher. Lovers mundus easily gets you most of that, and a mere 1k from CP clears it. Alternatively, something like 3300 from Spinner's plus ~1500 from CP.

For non-boss mobs, though, that same build with about 5000 penetration from CP and gear/mundus still has to deal with about 6500 resistance (roughly 13% damage reduction).

Combat Prayer's +8% damage is roughly equivalent to another 3500 penetration at that point. As such, an AOE buff that gives people around that much additional penetration would be within the parameters of the existing game. That would put you within 3000 of cap on non-boss mobs.

Stamina, meanwhile, could hit cap on the boss with the 3500 from the healer buff, 2750 from Sharpened, and 4600 from CP/Lovers/other gear (eg: Spriggans'). Without Alkosh. They'd still need about 7500 more on non-boss mobs, but that's probably still better than they already get at present.

Anyway, as I was saying, you'd still want an AOE buff. Maybe something akin to Sanguine Altar, where you get 300 staminasteal/300 magickasteal while damaging any targets within the area, and 3500 penetration for 10-15 seconds when using the synergy (though the buff as a whole would be 45 seconds, similar to Sanguine Altar). 1.5 second cast time.

That seems like a nice revision to Force Siphon. Maybe do the magickasteal/staminasteal as part of the base skill, and then have one morph add the penetration synergy, and the other morph add a resistance synergy or shield synergy or something.

That would make it something you could opt into, and phase out Alkosh as a player choice, rather than change Alkosh directly.

Drdeath20 · October 2018

Old dungeons dont really require a healer bcz they are too simple but healers are definetly wanted in dlc content. The problem is , this includes all roles, simply beating the content gets old after the 100th time. Players need something to aim for more than just getting through the dungeon. Something like a grade that they carry and will effect their rewards.

p00tx · October 2018

mocap wrote: »

1) dungeon bosses needs more DoTs rather than whac-a-mole oneshot blsht;
2) Resto tree needs waaaaaaay more exclusive buff/debuff/support skills;
3) PROFIT !

I can't stop laughing at this...! That's exactly what it feels like in there.

karekiz · October 2018

mocap wrote: »

1) dungeon bosses needs more DoTs rather than whac-a-mole oneshot blsht;

Whats stopping my DPS Mag Pet sorc from just out healing the dot, or vigour for that matter?

I am literally a healer with twice the mana pool, and tons more dmg.

p00tx · October 2018

karekiz wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

1) dungeon bosses needs more DoTs rather than whac-a-mole oneshot blsht;

Whats stopping my DPS Mag Pet sorc from just out healing the dot, or vigour for that matter?

I am literally a healer with twice the mana pool, and tons more dmg.

Moar dotz