The healer "problem" is only partially fixable

FrancisCrawford · October 2018

Some things about ESO are set in stone, or at least in hard plaster:

Dungeon groups are 4-player. That will never change.
Damage dealers have some "support" capabilities, such as self-healing. That will probably never change.
If tanks and healers were both pure "support" roles, then dungeon groups would literally have more support than damage capabilities. That is unlikely to ever be optimal. Thus, at least one of tanks and healers should also do some damage.

Also:

Healers need no more health than damage dealers. That will probably never change.
Tanks need more health than other characters. That will probably never change again.
If at least one of tanks or healers do damage, it will be more efficient for healers to do so. This follows from the previous points.

From the foregoing it follows that:

Part of the dungeon healer role will always be to do damage.

I don't have a problem with this. But those that do are likely to be perpetually disappointed.

spartaxoxo · October 2018

The reason I often don't take healers in something isn't because of self-sustain, exactly the opposite. I have better sustain with a healer.

The reason is because of how high the hp in this game, and the abundance of damage checks to punish players that actually play the mechanics. This game has a lot of them that not only do that, but can't just be healed through. Mostly because of one shots. It is extremely punishing to not have the damage.

If that is going to continue, then it will be continue to be better and safer to bring a third dps during the things I do bring a third one. It will just mean that I will be more and more miserable while playing.

They need to ease up off punishment of players for needing to follow the mechanics and make the punishment for not hitting a dps check a need to heal, not something likely to cause a wipe.

Smasherx74 · October 2018

Where as Dungeon Healers should do some DPS, don't forget you're not the DPS, your main goal isn't to DPS. your main goal is to sustain your group and keep them alive. That means buffing them, giving them blue balls, and using sets that benefit the group.

If you have two really good DPS, you're better off making sure they're sustained and debuffs/buffs are up. Your 15-20k dps isn't going to be as useful as the extra 400 wep/spell dmg you add to them, plus the minor berserk, and the resources you give them. More often than not, healers are just trying to do DPS when they could increase the DPS of the actual DPS roles by providing more support than dealing damage. I feel like people are under the assumption healers should only do group support in trials. I'd much rather have a healer running Olo and throwing resources at me, than a fake healer doing *** dps with off heals. Everytime I get que'd into a group of all DPS, it goes by slower than it would with a group of a support tank/healer and a second competent DPS.

Tasear · October 2018

So what if they helped you get passed the does checks better?

spartaxoxo · October 2018

Tasear wrote: »

So what if they helped you get passed the does checks better?

I would bring a healer everytime if they could more easily help dps get past the dps checks. They should be able to average/meh dps get past them and good ones to obliterate them. Instead good ones bring a third dps to obliterate them and average ones just don't do the content.

witchdoctor · October 2018

Tasear wrote: »

So what if they helped you get passed the does checks better?

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They need to ease up off punishment of players for needing to follow the mechanics and make the punishment for not hitting a dps check a need to heal, not something likely to cause a wipe.

@Tasear

My take on @spartaxoxo 's comment is this:

Look at the final boss in vAS. It can go on FOREVER. It is a fight that a group can safely recover from after a damn-near complete wipe. A good healer can help the group reset and continue the fight. In my opinion, THAT is the kind of stuff that makes a healer essential.

FrancisCrawford · October 2018

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Where as Dungeon Healers should do some DPS, don't forget you're not the DPS, your main goal isn't to DPS. your main goal is to sustain your group and keep them alive. That means buffing them, giving them blue balls, and using sets that benefit the group.

If you have two really good DPS, you're better off making sure they're sustained and debuffs/buffs are up. Your 15-20k dps isn't going to be as useful as the extra 400 wep/spell dmg you add to them, plus the minor berserk, and the resources you give them. More often than not, healers are just trying to do DPS when they could increase the DPS of the actual DPS roles by providing more support than dealing damage. I feel like people are under the assumption healers should only do group support in trials. I'd much rather have a healer running Olo and throwing resources at me, than a fake healer doing *** dps with off heals. Everytime I get que'd into a group of all DPS, it goes by slower than it would with a group of a support tank/healer and a second competent DPS.

On a templar dungeon healer, in a Groupfinder PUG, I wear SPC and proc it with Rapid Regeneration, and take care of Elemental Drain for my group. Further, my rotation includes:

Shards (always).
Elemental Blockade (always).
Purifying Light, usually; most groups are good enough to warrant this.
Combat Prayer, sometimes; most groups are not good enough to warrant this.
Reflective Light, usually.

Obviously, burst healing when needed takes priority over anything else.

On that basis, I usually do more than 1/4 of DPS, often do over 40%, and in extreme cases have been in the 60%+ range while also keeping the group alive. Of course, in the smoothest and highest-DPS groups, my contribution may be 15% or less.

Jeremy · October 2018

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The reason I often don't take healers in something isn't because of self-sustain, exactly the opposite. I have better sustain with a healer.

The reason is because of how high the hp in this game, and the abundance of damage checks to punish players that actually play the mechanics. This game has a lot of them that not only do that, but can't just be healed through. Mostly because of one shots. It is extremely punishing to not have the damage.

If that is going to continue, then it will be continue to be better and safer to bring a third dps during the things I do bring a third one. It will just mean that I will be more and more miserable while playing.

They need to ease up off punishment of players for needing to follow the mechanics and make the punishment for not hitting a dps check a need to heal, not something likely to cause a wipe.

I believe you are closer to the truth here. The OP's argument frankly doesn't make any sense to me and hits on a lot of irrelevant points.

When it comes to PvE specifically : the game relies heavily on punishing DPS-race mechanics (which I've been criticizing for years). Having a character specifically focused on keeping players alive (and you have to focus on it by the way if you want to be an effective healer) does not help the group clear these DPS thresholds as much as having a third damage-dealer would. And due to the "mechanics" you cannot heal through the damage that is done when these damage thresholds aren't achieved because they almost always mean an instant wipe.

Your solution - to allow players to heal through the damage suffered if the DPS race isn't won - would effectively fix this problem and make healers ideal for any group regardless if they lack damage to clear these hurdles or not. Unfortunately the developers will never do this because a. they hate healers and b. are obsessed with accommodating damage dealers and making it the focus of their game. Then they oddly wonder why healers aren't as effective as they should be.

When it comes to PvP specifically: healing has simply been nerfed to the point it provides nothing more than a crutch for damage-dealing classes and is not a realistic style of play outside of mere support. It's been pretty amusing watching the sorcerer's complain about how useless their shields are now that they have been nerfed down to 7-8k figures. Now they know exactly how healer's in none-CP PvP feel . So I couldn't agree with them more.

Any defensive ability that can barely break even with a single offensive ability is basically useless. The developers behind this game simply don't understand the concept of healing very well - or defensive strategies period. They seem to believe healing is simply there to neutralize or slow incoming damage instead of actually being able to counter it and enable the player to live through it. It's a very flawed way to develop healing generally - and until they recognize that - this problem is likely to continue no matter how many other defensive abilities like shields they try to nerf on their quest to make healing more useful. Because the problem here was never shields to begin with. The problem here is that healing on this game cannot successfully counter incoming damage .

witchdoctor · October 2018

You 2 have explained parts (huge parts, IMO) of the problem succinctly. ZOS just needs to read it.

@Tasear

spartaxoxo · October 2018

witchdoctor wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

So what if they helped you get passed the does checks better?

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They need to ease up off punishment of players for needing to follow the mechanics and make the punishment for not hitting a dps check a need to heal, not something likely to cause a wipe.

@Tasear

My take on @spartaxoxo 's comment is this:

Look at the final boss in vAS. It can go on FOREVER. It is a fight that a group can safely recover from after a damn-near complete wipe. A good healer can help the group reset and continue the fight. In my opinion, THAT is the kind of stuff that makes a healer essential.

This is exactly what I mean and the kinds of things I'd like to see more often.

If you eliminate the recovery element by forcing me to do a bunch of damage or perish, and make it so any mistake is a oneshot (which cannot be healed) then why the hell would I bring a healer? If what I need is more damage instead of a strong recovery to prevent a wipe, I'm gonna bring the damage dealer.

weedgenius · October 2018

spartaxoxo wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

So what if they helped you get passed the does checks better?

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They need to ease up off punishment of players for needing to follow the mechanics and make the punishment for not hitting a dps check a need to heal, not something likely to cause a wipe.

@Tasear

My take on @spartaxoxo 's comment is this:

Look at the final boss in vAS. It can go on FOREVER. It is a fight that a group can safely recover from after a damn-near complete wipe. A good healer can help the group reset and continue the fight. In my opinion, THAT is the kind of stuff that makes a healer essential.

This is exactly what I mean and the kinds of things I'd like to see more often.

If you eliminate the recovery element by forcing me to do a bunch of damage or perish, and make it so any mistake is a oneshot (which cannot be healed) then why the hell would I bring a healer? If what I need is more damage instead of a strong recovery to prevent a wipe, I'm gonna bring the damage dealer.

That is such a clear and honest way of putting it. Bravo!

I main a healer and I really can’t argue with that... in fact, I hope someone at ZOS is listening so they can see the corner healers have been wedged into

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · October 2018

Tanks and healers should be able to do dps from there passives, my healer has 2 restro staffs and can do 10-30k dps depending the situtation and the same for my tank, although it has a detruction staff on bk bar

profundidob16_ESO · October 2018

spartaxoxo wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

So what if they helped you get passed the does checks better?

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They need to ease up off punishment of players for needing to follow the mechanics and make the punishment for not hitting a dps check a need to heal, not something likely to cause a wipe.

@Tasear

My take on @spartaxoxo 's comment is this:

Look at the final boss in vAS. It can go on FOREVER. It is a fight that a group can safely recover from after a damn-near complete wipe. A good healer can help the group reset and continue the fight. In my opinion, THAT is the kind of stuff that makes a healer essential.

This is exactly what I mean and the kinds of things I'd like to see more often.

If you eliminate the recovery element by forcing me to do a bunch of damage or perish, and make it so any mistake is a oneshot (which cannot be healed) then why the hell would I bring a healer? If what I need is more damage instead of a strong recovery to prevent a wipe, I'm gonna bring the damage dealer.

well put. I main a healer since beta as well and switched to tank eventually when healers became more obsolete but I cannot argue with exactly that which you pointed out. Also good other points in this thread.

I can however offer a few ideas and ways to ZOS and bring their attention to solutions I have seen working in the past in other games that overcame the same problems.

1. Give powerful tools with a CD to the healer in order for him to be able to recover the group from 1shot errors. Basically reshape the restoration tree ultimate into something like "15 seconds untouchable with full cc immunity" so the healer can rezz up 2 people after which they should be able to heal the 4th person. Since it's an ultimate the healer will have to time it or keep ready and loaded it as a failsafe for rough parts

2. Put a small CD (1sec) on DPS insta-selfshield skills and change the 1-shot mechanics in dungeons parts into heavy hitting dots. So instead of a BOOM 60K damage 1-shot it now does 15K every 0.5 seconds for 4 ticks delivering the same damage spread over 2 full seconds. This way a dps cannot selfshield/selfheal his way out of his suicidal error (skipping mechanics) but a serious dedicated healer could burst heal through and save them if he's fast enough and properly specced. This makes skilled healers wanted, loved and needed since they can correct human error from dps and save them. If then dps wants to still play without healer they better play perfect ! I guarantee it won't take long before they start running with a healer again since "total sustained dps is much higher that way because dead dps=zero dps"

3. Rework the "Mutagen" morph so that it applies 2K 'emergency safety net heal' stacks (like olorime/siroria stacks but they trigger upon mutagen hot ticks instead of location) up to a maximum of 5. The total amount of current stacks only blow upon fatal damage impact or are lost when hots stop coming in the stacks fall off. At 5 stacks the the safety net heal from Mutagen is 10K in size, essentially adding to the players health but only when he dies. Make sure that in the fatal damage calculation this heal always triggers before the fatal damage is applied (so it always guaranteed saves the affected person unless the fatal damage was higher then the affected current health + this 10K safety net heal).

@ZOS_Finn

@ZOS_RobGarrett

@ZOS_Wrobel

@Tasear