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MORE THAN HEALS, making Healers wanted in content

Soundinfinite
Soundinfinite
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Hello all, I’m going to be as short and direct as possible in this post.

Purpose: To create a “use” for Healers in group content.

The heart of the issue falls to the overall troubles with supportive roles and a META that has come to call them “Selfish vs Non-Selfish Builds.” To set this matter straight, there is no such creature as a selfish Tank or Healer. Their roles eliminate the possibility of selfishness in that their whole purpose is to ensure the survival of the other team members. While ESO at one time stated that they wanted an inclusive culture that didn’t end up as another WOW, in that DPS is king, their simplistic strategy in Leaderboards for end-game content states otherwise. Instead of groups being Dynamically Ranked and scored based on individual roles for an overall cumulative group score (Closer to how Battlegrounds are scored and ranked-though hopefully an even better system), instead it is simply a time modifier. The better the time, the better the score, the higher the rank. Thus, DPS has become KING, and all support roles are to function with minimal specs into their actual roles and instead focus on buoying the overall DPS of the group, (Example: Alkosh a Medium Armor damage dealing set worn by Heavy Armor Tanks, no matter what max stat their focus is, used to improve group penetration). As such, if a Healer cannot bring more to the group than survivability they are not as desired because the other roles can burn faster with more DPS thus taking less damage and off-healing enough to stay alive.

As nothing in ESO stands on its own, to make Healers more appealing in content, this will also touch on other aspects of balancing. I have devised a 4-step process that I feel will remedy this issue in a sustainable and appealing manner.


STEP #1: Healers need more than just heals to be required in group content.

Healers are a support role, and as such should bring things to the group that the group’s members cannot feasibly get on their own without running DPS or Tanking LOSS sets to make up the difference. That is, they should offer, damage modifiers, minor and major buffs/de-buffs, on top of their strong heals. Also, these should “synergize” with not only the group BUT with the MAIN other support role of a group, the TANK.

We manage the main contribution a Healer can provide with a 2 Part “balance” change.

Part A: A skill line swap and change.

Healing_Table_1.png

So, now that we know what we are working with, how do we make a Healer more effective while synergizing with a TANK and the DD’s?

Answer: make both the tank and DD’s STRONGER in their roles with a simple change you can ONLY get through a healer.

Healing_Table_2.png

As Shields are taking hit no matter what, (Accepting Critical Damage and Glyph Damage in PVP), and a second unknown proposed change to get back an instant cast time (Proposed Possible 40% of Health maximum strength in both PVE and PVP plus Battle Spirit in PVP) Magicka users will be in dire need of some defensive options to help keep them alive. As pointed out that Weakness to Elements hasn’t any truly viable in-game use, it opens an opportune window of adding a defensive skill to the stave line. As one of the largest problems Magicka users face is mobility and given they are mostly stronger at range-with notable class exceptions- the Elemental Burst Skill allows Magicka users a way to either escape or put distance between themselves and their attackers when fighting in a more than 1 on 1 environment. By making the Major Breach an additive instead of focus of the skill it allows users in solo content and PVP to still have access to this penetration, while also using an active DPS skill as do most Stamina skills that give Major Fracture.
In PVE it becomes a decent skill in group mobs giving magicka users a way to make the mobs more vulnerable to their attacks when the tank cannot feasibly penetrate all adds or enemies in play while also helping to control the battle and cause damage. In most cases Elemental Escape will be stronger in PVP while Elemental Explosion will be stronger in PVE and specific PVP builds.

In effect we pull the single target penetration from the Destructive line and give it to the Healer. However, instead of making it a Minor/Major Buff which cannot synergize with the Tank skills and Damage Dealing skills, we instead give it the same value that is given through Alkosh. This synergizes with a Tank in that now the Tank is free to use an actual Heavy armor or Tanking set to improve their survivability. As was mentioned in a previous Class Rep meeting, it would be beneficial if the Tank could actually build like a tank and thus fulfilling the purpose of their role requirement. It also moves the Healer into a more KEY position in group make-up in order for the group to achieve maximum DPS against their foes. Also, with the 1st morph being the clear choice for PVE it allows the healer to benefit BOTH Magicka AND Stamina group sustain, instead of only helping half the group. It thus even further helps DPS in their goal.
IN PVP the skill remains single target and the penetration boost only helpful while the targeted player is still alive, or the timer runs out. Morph 2 is clearly better suited for PVP play in that the battles per player in general last for shorter time making the 4 second timer of Defile and Maim another helpful tool to your group.

Of Course, with these changes come PART B.


Part B: Making Alkosh work for Stamina builds as a Medium Armor Stamina Set.

Now that the penetration this set gives is in the hands of the Healer, this set needs to be adjusted to still work in gameplay and a desirable option, but for Stamina Damage Dealers and NOT Tanks. As the set currently gives Weapon Damage and Weapon Critical in its first 3 traits, it is aimed as a Damage Dealing and not a sustain set.

My Proposal is simple:

Continue to give it a group penetration buff BUT ONLY for Physical Penetration, raising Stamina DD to the same penetration’s threshold of Magicka players. Also, further reinforce it as a Damage set the keeps the user in the group form taking a significant DPS LOSS while having the set equipped.

In order to do this:

2-4th piece traits remain as is.

5th piece Trait Becomes:
When you activate a synergy, you send a shockwave from your position that deals 1720 Physical Damage and an additional 12040 Physical Damage over 10 seconds. Reduces the Physical Resistance of any enemy hit by 4884 and gives you 430 Weapon Damage and 657 Weapon Critical for 10 seconds.

This is an idea and the actual values may need adjustment based on whatever set equations ZOS runs sets through before releasing them; however, as it no longer works as a Tank set, it still has definite added group value in the hands of a Stamina DPS player!



STEP #2: Class and Line Heals VS the Restoration Stave, Alliance War and Guild Lines

This is short and sweet.

Basically, I’m going to use THE MOST HATED WORD in balancing…NERF.

NERF all NON-Restoration Stave, Non-Alliance War and Non-Guild line Heals by 20%.

As the CP points rise, Damage Dealers will eventually, (A long way off) start having the ability to invest in healing focused CP Tree lines making their individual heals even stronger than they already are. This helps keep that at bay, in that they would only be able to get their heals mainly back to current levels when investing 56 CP points in lines like Blessed. Yes, they will still have room to buff a little more (Up to 25%) but that is with HEAVY investment in CP points which won’t ever be realistic.

While in the current state of the game it will make Healers with their staves, and specific class line heals more desired as the current self-heals will have a noticeable lower effectiveness.

ALSO: Buff Restoration Stave Heals by 20%.

This will further make a widened gap between a Healer and their non-healer counterparts. As having a healer on your team will undoubtedly grant the team the highest survival chance.

Skills like Combat Prayer should be a group heal that rivals Skill line counterparts but at a better cost while also granting the buff of Minor Beserk which the class heals do not provide. Instead of its current state of being mainly a buff with only a moderate burst heal attached. Which leads us to the next Step.



STEP #3: Make Restoration Stave Heals more appealing.

Once you get a Restoration Stave into the hands of a Magicka user you are already 50% on your way to having a dedicated healer. The other 50% are the sets in play, the skills slotted, and the CP investment.

Wait that’s only 50%?

Yes, because a large spell-damage and max magicka pool strengthens healing as it does in Damage. However, equipping the Resto Stave is the key toolkit piece that causes a DPS loss and a Healing gain. A Damage dealer cannot be as effective with a resto on their backbar as one that has 2 Destruction Staves. Just as a Healer with ONLY a Resto stave is not as effective as a Healer that combines it with Healing class morphs, guild line healing skills and sets that boost the supportive role of a healer. But both rely on that Magicka and Spell Damage.

Thus, making the Resto Stave Shine will make it more appealing to have at least 1 person in the group carrying it versus everyone relying on class heal skills. While Step 1 makes a resto stave KEY in group content with added penetration and sustain that synergizes with all other Roles and alleviates build constraints of Tanks, Step #2 makes a wider birth between Resto staves and class skills, this step places the FINISHING Touches on the Healer build.

Healing_Table_3.png
Healing_Table_4.png
Healing_Table_5.png

By making these changes paired with previous proposed changes Healers now have access to Minor Courage, Penetration, Major and Minor Maim, Minor Defile, more diversified and stronger skill options and finally greater heals. This improves its main role function and well as greatly increases its group buff/de-buff functionality and makes them required staples in game content.



STEP #4: Game Mechanics and Shield vs Heal debate

The final stage deals with how game content is created. One of the greatest arguments against healers is that 1-shot mechanics make them moot, as healers have no power in keeping their team alive. As such simply learning the mechanics of the content makes a healer moot.

While on a certain level this is accurate, it is also not. True one-shot do or die mechanics are unfortunately needed to make gates in the team movement. If one-shots did not exist, players would simply be able to set up shop in a single spot and DPS down the bosses as they do on dummies in parses. The one-shot break this, forcing the group to move, rearrange, and work together. It also creates DPS loss and slows the dungeon progression.

With that acknowledged, the problem arises in non-true one-shot mechanics and the lack of damage over-time utilized in content design. What I mean are devastating blows that can hit for 12-16k of Damage, not enough to kill an appropriately built character, giving the healer the job of saving them before the next hit, small or not, finishes the job The game needs more of these as they would put a resource strain on DPS that would have to utilize high costing heals to recover on their own and cause a drop in rotation and overall DPS output.

Damage over-time is hardly used at all in most PVE content. While it is a staple of player side DPS, the game relies on direct damage and one-shot mechanics to get the job done. WHEN damage overtime is utilized, the DOT is normally so extreme that it becomes almost a 1-shot with the team only able to handle 1 to at most maybe 2 ticks of the damage before they wipe. Instead of the game allowing Healers Heals over time to be truly required in fighting constant DOT and Area Affect DOT, they make a mechanic such as the Tank plugging where the DOT is coming from, or interrupting the boss, or as in Bloodroot Forge utilizing a Blood Rain mechanic.

Instead the only damage a healer is normally there for, is the damage brought by Adds and Mobs. And even then, this damage is normally still direct damage but just in a high enough and rapid enough succession that HOT’s are more effective at battling the damage than insta-healing it.

So, I hypothesize, that if more Non-One-Shot mechanics but devastating blows were utilized and TRUE damage overtime (Vet content numbers of 3k-6k damage per second over 6-10 second periods, Non-Vet 1k-3k damage over the same 6-10 sec period) were added to content that healer’s HOT could handle and actually heal through, would make Healers be in more of a demand. I am not saying 1-shots should be removed, they have their place and as already stated serve multiple purposes, but that the damage should be more dynamic, and one-shots interwoven with the other forms in a better way to create damage that, yes, requires a healer.

The Shield vs Heal debate goes into basic game mechanics as well.

Light Armor in PVE without shields is almost unbearable as the Armor just cannot withstand damage in any tangible way. I will admit, shields that can withstand twice a character’s health are overpowered and ill conceived. However, some form of instant cast life saving shields must be allowed for Light Armor gameplay. Healers do need to be required more and shield’s do keep this from happening in PVE at least. However, making Light Armor characters completely healer reliant is taking the game too far in the opposite direction.

While the now defunct cast time to shields was the wrong choice and an attempt to blanket fix multiple issues, (PVP shield stacking and PVE invulnerability), I must admit that the Live state of shields in PVE is overpowered, however the 50% nerf to shields in PVP make them ONLY viable if stacking. A single shield “melts like butter on a hot plate” in PVP combat as is, even in a 1v1 situation against a competent player, and they have no use in any 1vX situations. (Dueling does not count, as shields are at their PVE strength and thus do seem formidable)

In response to this, I feel a shield should be balanced in such a way that a 50% shield reduction would not be needed in a PVP environment. That is, a single shield in PVP or PVE should max out at somewhere around the 12k-16k max strength. The proposed 40% Max Health limit would nerf shields to a lower point than this. In PVE, if a Magicka character builds up to 20k max health into their build (A hard thing to do considering there aren’t any Magicka Races that buff Health in their racial passives as Stamina races can) their shield would be maxed out at 8k. While this % can be moved to 50% or 60% max health giving 10-12k or even higher 80% getting to my 16k maximum, there is still the issue that Hardened Ward, Dampen Magicka, and the CP Bastion Skill tree become moot. Why choose these morphs or invest in Bastion when you’re capped at a maximum? You also have the issue if High Health builds, i.e. Tanks becoming even more invincible and tank like, with massive sized shields compared to all their counterparts. And lastly the issue of Stamina players being able to theoretically create shields, such as Boneshield, stronger than their Magicka counterparts.

How do you remedy this?

1) My first proposal it to make shields a flat defense rate that doesn’t scale off anything. As such, choose a number that is deemed strong enough. I vote 11,000. Thus, the only way to improve this value is to A) choose the morph that improves shields strength which in both cases nerfs your sustain. B) Invest in Bastion to improve the strength of the shields. AS such:
11000 base shield.
11000x1.20 (56 in CP Bastion 20%) =13,200
11000x1.23 (Hardened)=13,530
11000x1.43(Hardened+56 in CP Bastion) =15,730
11000x1.50 (5 pieces Light Armor x6%=30%+56 in CP Bastion 20%) = 16,500

2) My second proposal is reduce the base value of all shields by 45% and let them scale as they do now.

As I stated the Battle Spirit Passive would now omit shields, and they would function at full strength in PVP, but now that strength, no matter which way you slice it, is greatly diminished.

But you say UGH!!! Fine so you’ve managed to nerf shields and make healers needed and keep them functional in PVP. BUT!!! BUT!!!! What about stackers. Stackers will still be massively overdefended in both PVE and PVP.

This comes down to semantics. The difference between Wards and Shields. Wards should be stackable, shields should not.

All sets that offer shields (Such as Iceheart) should be changed to Wards. The Psijic passive, a ward, Steadfast Ward and Morphs, Barrier and Siege Shield Wards. That is ALL SETS, GUILD and Alliances War Skill Lines, and Restoration Stave Skill lines all become Wards.

All other skills including ALL CLASS SKILLS, ARMOR SKILLS, stay as shields.

The point of this is to Heighten Healers and the Support skills they will slot. Thus, a healer or a support character can add damage mitigation to their team mates, but a player can only buff themselves with a single shield unless they decide to BUILD their character with Support Skill Lines or specific sets to gain more defense. This meets the criteria ZOS is trying to achieve in forcing Magicka toons to build for more defense or utilize a healer to survive and no longer can be a lone wolf Damage Dealing tank.


Okay, done now. Whew, longer than I thought. Thought to be fair the charts take a lot of space!


@Alcast
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@GandTheImpaler
@Hexys
@Joy_Division
@NightbladeMechanics
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@stileanima
@Tasear
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@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Wrobel
  • Facefister
    Facefister
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    You've wasted your time with nonsense.
  • ascan7
    ascan7
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    I agrre that force syphon really need a buff.
    also, the other morph of combat prayer too
  • db0ssman
    db0ssman
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    You obviously put a lot of effort and time into this, so I just wanna say gg putting this all together. With that said, I think you might actually make some of the problems you want to fix a little worse. For example reducing class heal skills would simultaneously push people toward the Templar/warden or GTFO meta beause thier strongest points are the extra utility they bring to groups that others can't. Instead of each healer having a unique identity in the easier content, they would end up homogeneous with thier class just being set dressing.

    Starfire Protocol lvl 50 NB Redmage healer - Main + Master Crafter
    Gives Good Heed lvl 50 Warden Super Buff Healer
    Crafty Smyth lvl 50 Stamblade Poison Assassin - Farmer
    Everyon's Pal Adin lvl 44 Templar Splash Healer
    Stands Against Danger lvl 16 DK Tank -ex mule
    Matriarch Tamer lvl 18 Baby Sorc Healer
  • VeiledCriticism
    VeiledCriticism
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    Facefister wrote: »
    You've wasted your time with nonsense.

    Very construtive comment.
  • idk
    idk
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    TBF I did not read past the purpose since the purpose since there seemed to be way more information than needed to make a point or persuasion.

    1st. Zos made clear before launch the trinity was blurred in this game. In many aspects is and should remain. DPS can heal themselves to a degree and healers can DPS.

    2. in the more challenging content pure healers are needed. Pure healers in the sense that they buff and debuff as well as heal.

    So in the end a good solid healer gets plenty of opportunity to heal.
  • shaielzafine
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    People bring healers when they want some buffs & they need help debuff content in the game. You only really need a pure healing build in trials, and other than that you're better off helping DPS as a healer. Overhealing = NOT helping. And yes, you can overheal in this game, that's literally how the set Spell Power Cure works. Spamming healing springs when people don't need the heal isn't "healing". Giving buffs = helping. Different classes bring different buffs / debuffs to a group (ex. sorcs do not give any debuffs from their in class skills, wardens give minor toughness buffs). Nerfing "Class and Line Heals VS the Restoration Stave, Alliance War and Guild Lines" along with your idea of messing with Alkosh will NOT make people want to bring healers specifically. It's just nerfs that are uncalled for. Instead of playing nerf whack-a-mole or nerf roulette of fortune, why not add buffs to this game that only healers can provide? Otherwise, people will still opt to dps while off healing & in your case of buffing resto line then they'll probably just end up back barring a resto staff for off healing. With your suggestions, people will be asking specifically for templars for their synergies & warden for some extra buffs, but the other classes will get screwed since everyone's healing output got nerfed.

    One of the issues with this game is the way content & progression is designed. They keep giving us champion points and we keep getting more points into resistances, recovery, damage % modifiers. I'm stronger and survive more things at max cp versus a fresh cp160. But the content in ESO doesn't change, they don't hit me harder (less, actually) and they don't get harder to kill. Overland content & base game dungeons are too easy because of the way things scale, and you can do whatever build you want. For vet DLC dungeons, it's easier to burn down bosses & mobs the more CP you have, and there are places where content is designed to one shot you. Most zone pug groups or random q finder will bring a healer & a tank for vet DLC dungeons, but right now if you already know the dungeon then it really is easier to just do 3 magnbs that off heal and a tank. Why? Because the fights are faster, you know where things will spawn / what they do when they spawn, and the healer won't protect you from one shot mechanics anyway. For new players and people that don't do a lot of dps, then they benefit from bringing a healer rather than a 3rd dps. They benefit from the major courage, combat prayer buff to do more damage & the steady heals while they parse on the boss. With your suggestions, one of the dps can just slap on a resto staff back bar and still dps, only occasionally throwing a heal. So basically, the same as we have it right now.

    They can make healers more wanted by fixing the CP power creep, by designing content with something like bleeds or other steady ticking damage that needs to be healed (example, oblivion damage you can't avoid / shield / dodge from rather than straight up one shots), by giving healers a way to provide new buffs unique to healers (and I don't mean by taking away / nerfing things like Warhorn so now only Warden healers are needed), or letting healers do debuffs. Reworking force siphon would be great, btw.
  • Kikke
    Kikke
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    How to make healers usefull without changing the meta = Stop making one shot mechanics.
    Cleared Trials:
    - vAA HM - vHRC HM - vSO HM - vMoL HM - vHoF HM - vAS HM - vCR HM -

    "The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching."
    -Someone said it, I guess.
  • idk
    idk
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    kikkehs wrote: »
    How to make healers usefull without changing the meta = Stop making one shot mechanics.

    This is a good start, but healers have never been required outside of the most challenging content, since day one. Most challenging obviously is different based on the groups skill level.
  • Drdeath20
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    Your opening statement had promise. Recieve grades for roles played:

    Damage dealers get graded on
    DPS + total damage done + buffs applied to group vs deaths

    Tanks get graded on
    Total damage taken + amount of buffs applied to group + consecutive time alive vs deaths

    Healers get graded on
    Total healing done + total activated synergy bonus applied by a teamate + buffs applied to group vs teamates deaths

    Stuff like revives reduce a death penalty by half
  • firedrgn
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    "Short" i dont think that word means what you think it means.
  • mague
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    Hiddle wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »
    You've wasted your time with nonsense.

    Very construtive comment.

    But true. Those doing harder content are already forced into a small variety of meta builds. All others would loose because B'Korgen only is doable with a healer then. There is a lot of overland going on in Wrothgar, Clockwork City and Sommersend. Usually done by players who try to be self sufficient. 20% heal nerf is a bad joke in that regard.

    Next patch its getting even better, because Mitigation will be in front of shields.

    Rather make encounters more fun then mechanics. Then people will not bypass mechanics with dps. There is this one Geysir boss with an expanding attack similar to Destro's Impuls. It is not deadly but requires a HP refill. When self-healed such attacks are expensive on the pool/sustain. Just add more of such stuff that isnt devasting but damaging to instanced group content and healers are back the next day.
    Edited by mague on October 1, 2018 7:10AM
  • mocap
    mocap
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    1) dungeon bosses needs more DoTs rather than whac-a-mole oneshot blsht;
    2) Resto tree needs waaaaaaay more exclusive buff/debuff/support skills;
    3) PROFIT !
  • NyxWrench
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    I largely agree with the concepts presented, though I might take different approaches on the particulars.

    My main MMO background is Final Fantasy XI. That was a much slower paced MMO, with strongly defined party roles, and strong requirements to work together. That means I can't just do a direct comparison to ESO, with its faster pacing, plenty of support for solo adventuring, and PVP side.

    However there are still areas where I'd consider it useful for the contrast it provides.

    In FFXI, there was only one true healer: the white mage. There were other classes that could fill the role, particularly in easier content, but for the top-end stuff, you needed the white mage. This was in an MMO with over 20 job classes. White mage had an identity as a healer, and the game designers were careful not to step on its toes too much as they expanded the game and other jobs' capabilities.

    We don't have that in ESO because of the design paradigm which suggests that any class can fill any role, which means that there is no "one true healer class" — although templar comes close. The problem is that this means that every job can at least half-ass healing, and that many of the tools of a healer are spread out to just about everyone. That in turn means it's difficult to provide tools that are specific to the healer role, rather than getting spread out so that you can squeeze in another DD.

    If you want a strong healer identity, you need two things:
    1. True support tools for the healer to use that provide for an interesting and varied responsibility.
    2. The ability to make those tools effective (to end-game standards) only in the hands of the healer.

    Now, part of the issue comes from a fundamental limitation of the game: the ability bar. With a limited number of abilities you can use, and sometimes the complementary requirement that certain skills are equipped solely for their passive effect, rather than as an active ability, you have to spread out the responsibility for various buffs and debuffs to different players, either with their own abilities, or via glyph enchantments or set effects.

    That means both that it's hard to consolidate all those support tools into the hands of the healer. This is exacerbated by the short durations on a a lot of the skills, which make them difficult to maintain outside of an infused glyph which automatically renews the effect during normal attacks.

    Still, there are ways around this. The first thing I'd consider is gear-specific fixes. Have a gear set that's clearly designed for healers, with the set bonus being: "Extends the durations of buffs and debuffs that you cast by 50%. Upgrades Minor debuffs in the staff skill lines to Major." This is not a DPS set, so won't be chosen by the DD's trying to optimize their damage. It might be useful for a tank, but if you put it on a light armor set, that largely goes out the window.

    Then add a skill that provides several Minor debuffs that, when combined with this set, become Major debuffs. Or conversely, do the same with buffs. You could also do this with a skill selection rather than a gear set. "When this skill is slotted, cooldowns for damage dealing abilities are increased by 50%, but the strengths of buffs and debuffs are increased from Minor to Major." (Maybe combine the two, where the ability increases Minor to Major, and the gear can increase the duration to make maintaining the buffs and debuffs more manageable.)

    Basically, if you wear this gear set, you're saying, "I am here to provide support." And then make it so that you are then very effective at being a support, and substantially moreso than a DD trying to do the same thing.

    Anyway, make Major buffs and debuffs something that you get only from dedicating yourself towards the healer/support role, and reduce all the standard buffs and debuffs across various skill lines to Minor versions by default. Minor versions are still useful to have since they stack with Major versions, but they aren't going to carry the day when you need serious support work.


    The next step I'd go for is to encourage focusing on sustain and balanced stats, rather than overload on only a single stat. The easiest way would probably have healing power be determined by the harmonic mean of magicka, stamina, and health.

    Explanation: The harmonic mean of 40k magicka, 17k health, and 10k stamina would be 16320. The harmonic mean of 25k magicka, 24k health, and 18k stamina (the same total of the three stats) would be 21862, which is 34% higher. That would be a way to ensure that stat balance was a more important consideration, which feels like a better approach for a healer/support character, compared to the maximization that DDs and tanks want for their stats.

    As a fallout from that, sustain would become far more important, as you're drawing from a smaller pool of magicka (or possibly stamina), and thus can't just depend on deep pockets to carry you through.

    That would also mean that there's much less difference between the different races, rather than only the max magicka races being the 'best', since all the races have some sort of resource boost.



    Anyway, that's just a couple ideas of where I'd start when trying to raise the importance of a healer/support role, and diminish that of the DPS burn party setup. Revisions to various skills would be necessary to support the idea, but it would take far more space than this already long post to really get into the details of balancing things out.
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    There's some interesting thoughts happening here.

    Most particular one is how scores are based in trials. I think this has some merit. In a sense more of testing player skill over raw power. Something of more finding a balance between them.

    You other idea wouldn't work. There's people already annoyed that their healing class feels like other classes by uses same skills. Also it would be a lost of playstyles. The 5 classes before murkimre played very uniquly different as Healer.

    - My personal thoughts is we simply need more utilty skills so that people have more of the illusion of being different. This applies to many situations.

    Now onto fights, honestly way back when the game wasn't designed for how complex we the players made healing into. It was more of burst healing or off healing. You can find some interesting polls on the dynamics if you search "should healers dps". Three years ago this was way more in fashion, but now it's more about utility, heals over time. This also created an issue with missing healing checks.

    In many instances there is a lack of testing reaction time, positioning, Resource magement or utility such as knock down, stun, fear, or root. People hardly notice a skilled healer compared a fake healer because they aren't making significant impact in gameplay as the above is hardly important in a fight.
  • ccfeeling
    ccfeeling
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    What is healer?
    Double retro?

    Zos, healer better survive after latest patch, otherwise u guys slap your faces.

    Shield nerfing doesnt help healer become viable rofl.

  • Nicko_Lps
    Nicko_Lps
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    You want viable healers?

    Nerf vigor stacking groups, delete earthgore.

    Im tanking Vdsa as DK with 3dps, off hand VMA resto+earthgore procing earthgore with mutagen while my stamsorc buddy was using his awesome vigor and my magblade buddy was using his funnel of health. Count HoT's.

    Shield nerf was the classy excuse that devs came up with to nerf sorcs and please forum whining warriors.
    Edited by Nicko_Lps on October 1, 2018 10:54AM
  • Soundinfinite
    Soundinfinite
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    Wow guys, my initial posting didn’t seem to gain much traction, but I am truly excited to wake up today and see how many of my fellow players have read and joined in the thread on this topic! I also LOVE how many are truly constructive with so much of their own ideas and theories. Challenging each other’s ideas in a conversation is the ABSOLUTE BEST way to bring about great change, and I’m delighted to be a part of this.

    I am seeing some recurring criticism focusing on the issue that my ideas hinder class identity in healing. This is always a stress point in balancing mechanics. Not just in healing, but in all roles from Tanking to Damage Dealing. How do we make all things equal and yet still unique? It is a true conundrum.

    I wanted to address this a little and touch on some of the other issues that have been brought to my attention through these GREAT responses!

    As my title suggest, one of my main goals was to make the role of HEALER stronger by supplementing it with more group functionality as a support character and not relying on just making healing more required. (A direction the Dev teams seems to be taking is to simply gimp the survivability of other players making a healer more needed.) This brings up the issue of making the Restoration Stave more important, as the Restoration Stave is, currently, the KEY component in separating a Healer from any other role. Even a Stamina based healer likely has one bar dedicated to a restoration stave simply to get the Ultimate which is a strong SAVE the DAY skill. I wanted to further reinforce Stamina healing viability while Keeping the Restoration Stave the key equipped weapon.

    The purpose of these changes is to actually broaden the diversity of Classes as viable healers as well as possibly make Stamina healing more viable while making the role of a Healer MORE important in group content.

    To help in reading I’m going to divide my responses into separate posts, as long posts people trail off and don’t finish. While shorter posts, even if skimmed, will hopefully get the more important parts across.
  • Soundinfinite
    Soundinfinite
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    A few responses have simply stated “Stop the one-shots” meaning healers will suddenly be viable with this mechanic gone. It is simply not true. The Healer problem stems from multiple issues and taking out one shots will not solve it, and will, in all likelihood, make healers even less needed as nothing will stop 3 DPS and a tank from, as I stated, “Setting-Up-Shop” in a dungeon, not moving, or doing team dynamics and simply DPS-ing the BOSS down to oblivion. This is especially true with the design of the new sets from Cloudrest.

    The one shots make the group move, break their DPS rotation, lose DPS output, and work together, (Such as Zaan in Vet Scalecaller which requires the whole team to come together and take the beams damage.) They also make the team be more aware of their surroundings and what is happening instead of just staring with blinders on at the boss and trying to keep a perfect rotation up.

    With that said, as I also put in the original post, a more Dynamic mixture of damage output in dungeons is desired and would lead to more healer use. A mixture of one-shots with devasting group blows (High enough damage to put a character in executable death range but not kill them), and true damage over-time would require the toolkit of a healer more. Instant heals to combat devasting blows, heal over time to counter damage over time etc.

    I say true damage over time because they last for an extended period and put out a powerful BUT MANAGABLE amount of damage per tick. As is most AOE damage in vet content must be interrupted by a mechanic, (plugging holes, interrupting bosses, other specific mechanic - I used the Blood Rain from Bloodroot as an example of this) instead of actually requiring the HOT that healers can provide because each tick is at an unreasonably high 10k or more damage. A healer can not output heals to counter such damage over time. While damage in a more reasonable range (I gave 3-6k a second over a 6-10 second time) could be managed with a true healer’s toolkit but only if it is TRULY a healer and not just some simple player off heals combating it. Also, the group would quickly and likely wipe without a dedicated healer trying to combat such AOE damage over times.

    But one-shots remain in play in the mix and as I said, the word of the day, a more DYNAMIC dungeon experience is created that fully utilizes what a dedicated Healer can bring.
  • Soundinfinite
    Soundinfinite
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    Now to The Class Identity Issue, and the problem it causes in balancing. It is why some classes simply outperform others. Healing it’s the Templar, Tanking it’s the Dragon Knight, and DD it’s the Nightblade. Leaving the Sorcerer and Warden as second-class citizens in any role they choose. This pigeonholes end-game content into specific classes and even further reinforces those classes with specific end game sets and skill make-ups. Whether or not this is true, as all classes can effectually perform all roles, the META still doesn’t recognize or allow this, nor do many Progression Guilds. While I am not attempting to water down the in-demand role/class builds, I am trying to create more options and wider build viability.

    In-order to do this, it DOES require a certain amount of strength be given to UNIVERSALLY available skills. World Skill lines, Alliance War Skill Lines, Guild Skill Lines, Armor Skill Lines, and WEAPON Skill Lines are purposefully designed to counterbalance Class Skills. To give classes that do not have a certain set of required skills those exact skills via other means and make all classes capable of all roles. Also, KEY SKILLS are a staple of all Builds no matter what role, and thus every single character in the game is honestly built the same, whether we admit it or not. This also should be allowable in a Healers build.

    A Damage Dealer must always have as much Area of Attack and Damage OVER Time up as possible. Thus, ALL Magicka Damage Dealers always have, Wall of Elements (Weapon) and 1 Class Area of Effect (Class Specific) on their back bar. Stamina is the same as with having BOW (Weapon) and Caltrops (Alliance War Skill) on their back bar, neither of which comes from class identity. Main-bar always has a “Spammable” skill for main attack with relatively high damage compared to cost that can be weaved with light attacks. This used to basically be Force Pulse for all RANGED Magicka builds, a weapon skill and not class skill. Now there is also the Psijic Elemental Weapon as an alternative but again that is a Guild Skill and NOT a class skill. Non-Ranged Magicka Builds have historically been able to buck this with the Templar and DragonKnights class skill “spammable.” However, melee ranged Magicka DPS is not desired and looked down upon because all Stamina DPS, which is relegated to Melee, is higher than their Magicka Counterpart and thus becomes a nerf to overall DPS of a group make-up. Zaan, a set specifically designed to counter this issue, not-withstanding. Stamina spammables are ACTUALLY MORE DYNAMIC than Magicka in this department. While Stamina players, on average, seem to complain that Magicka is more Unique, here Stamina is by far the more flavorful of the bunch, as Stamina has many options from Specific Class skills, Nightblades and Templars, to 3 separate Weapon Skill lines each with their own “Spammable,” and lastly Crushing Weapon the Psijic Stamina Morph as viable options.

    In-Short, or not-so-short, all builds have at least 3 of their 10 active skills chosen for them from the get-go. If you want to include the “execute skill” its 4, though not all Magicka classes have access to an Execute while Stamina does. This is basic game make-up.

    A tank is the same, PUNCTURE is their spammable (Weapon and not Class), and a ranged taunt is required, now with two options (Inner Fire or Ice Stave Heavy Attack-a Guild skill and weapon skill again not class) must be equipped. And an Ultimate in the name of WAR HORN (Alliance War) be used, again not class specific. Thus, they too have at least 3 skills mandated in their build make up from the start that are non-class specific.

    The Healer is no different. With the changes I propose to the Restoration stave, it still DOES NOT make a healer out of simply equipping the stave. IT DOES MAKE THE STRONGEST healer however. As previously stated in the original post, a Damage dealer with a Resto stave on back bar is a DPS loss, just as a Healer with only a Restoration Stave equipped is a loss compared to a healer with supplemental Class, Guild, Alliance War and proper Healing Sets make-up. This has not changed. However, what has changed is the effectiveness of Classes being able to supplement the ROLE of healer by JUST building a DPS build and equipping 1 to 2 off-heals each, making up the healer’s role without actually having one. As those off-heals are weekend and the Restoration Stave strengthened. Also, this allows Classes with weaker group healing a buff in that the stave can help bridge the difference between them and the stronger healing classes.

    However, Class skills as well as the other “Available to All Skill Lines” still must be used, as the stave alone won’t keep the group alive thus in the end the Class Identity remains in-tact and is just as strong in a Healer’s role with my changes as it is on all other roles Tanking and Damage Dealing
  • Soundinfinite
    Soundinfinite
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    Now, for the THERE MUST BE MORE THAN HEALS to make them viable part. This has been mostly ignored by most responders. The focus being on me using the word “Nerf” to class healing skills “Buff” to Restoration Stave taking the brunt of the replies as players are very very leery of the words use. But in truth, this was the meat of my post and the MOST important part.

    CURRENTLY HEALERS HAVE 1 and ONLY 1 ACTIVE BUFF to offer. Combat Prayer gives Minor Berserk, and that is basically all there is. While a morph to Pancea will give Major Force, this is a buff already given through Warhorn which is used by Tanks, and also Healers. It is better designed in that it gives it to the whole team while Pancea only gives it to those healed by the skill. Also, with Warhorn up, the buff is useless because they cannot stack.

    The Minor Bersek becomes even less useful in that Wardens and Nightblades already have access to this buff and thus a healer throwing it out means nothing to them. Since Nightblades are current kings of DPS, this equates to a loss because they always are part of a group make-up.

    Thus, in the end, a HEALER OFFERS NOTHING TO THE GROUP UNLESS THEY USE SETS TO BUILD FOR IT except Healing which, as is shown time and time again, can be managed by omitting them from a group.

    This is why I proposed the changes to the Restoration Stave. Because a HEALER needs to bring MORE to a group and something that a GROUP CAN NOT HAVE without them.

    Why I chose PENETRATION as my main focus.

    This is simple. The current META, which IS proven effective, is for DAMAGE DEALERS to NOT spec into Penetration. Or Spec as little as possible. Instead use as much CP and Gear to buff Max Stat, Critical Damage, and Raw Damage. PENETRATION has become the YOLK of TANKS. While Sharpened Weapons used to be the META in getting penetration the NERF to them required the META to look for it elsewhere. While Sharpened was too strong and made it the only weapon in use, (Though Arguably this was always only a Stamina truth, as Nirnhoned was always a viable option for Magicka builds whether META or not.) the nerf did make other weapons traits viable but at the cost of Tanks, (Who used to actually build Tank builds when the Sharpened Meta was in play). Now Tanks have ONE AND ONLY ONE VIABLE BUILD!!!! In short, they solved one problem and created another.

    Alkosh is probably the most divisive set currently in the PVE game, (PVP has other sets with huge issues). There are threads after threads of Forum posts complaining, asking why, fightin over, etcetera, its use. Not only has this set made 1-viable build for Tanks it is a build that utilizes a Medium Armor Damage Dealing designed set to do it. This is a huge problem for Magicka focused tanks, while still not ideal for ones Stamina focused.

    This problem has been further compounded by Elitist who have made Alkosh the GATE of using a tank in content. So not only is the set limiting BUILD Variety and Viability but also being a GATEKEEPER for players. In short, if you can’t survive in Alkosh, then build a “Selfish build” (something I touched on in the original post doesn’t honestly exist for Helaers and Tanks due to the purpose of their role) and tank somewhere else until you have everything down to a level where you can drop such a build for one with Alkosh in it and survive. Then come back and we can talk.

    Should a set be so powerful? Should it carry so much importance, and should it dictate so much gameplay?

    I say no. And enough of others say no, that Class Reps brought it up in a meeting. Stating Tanks should be able to spec for survivability, or actually perform their role. The devs agreed and said they would look into it.

    This is where I brought HEALERS in. They NEED MORE to their TOOLKIT, and given the pressure already on TANKING, (Tanks are the gate keeper of Dungeon Finder as so few want to actually play this role) and the hate TANKS get for dying, (Even though they are asked to use a set that doesn’t help them survive). It has created a vacuum. Tanks are 1 class (Dragonknight), in 1 set make-up (Ebon Armory, Alkosh, Bloodspawn), with all skills pre-chosen in their design (Dragon Blood, Talons, Obsidian Shield, Chains, Inner Fire, Puncture, Warhorn, Power Lash). They are simply…not fun, nor appreciated. Possibly the only role with more disdain than a Healer is a TANK, as healers in 4-man content are simply being dropped, Tanks are still mostly required, and then degraded if the group wipes…without a healer. It’s becoming TOXIC.

    As support characters the Tank and Healer synergizing is key to making them function and help improve overall group performance. As Healers need more to give their group, Tanks need more build and viability options. When you add in the pot that Restoration Stave has skills that aren’t EVER used and while trying to create a stronger Healing role identity, it seems that PENETRATION can be an effective key and helping alleviate ALL the problems.

    By Giving Force Siphon the penetration of Alkosh it EFFECTIVELY makes a useless skill viable, opens up Tanks building options and play, makes a Healer a STAPLE in group content, and CREATES A SKILL THAT CAN BE USED BY BOTH STAMINA AND MAGICKA PLAYERS. Since Minor Lifesteal is not based on any MAX STAT and is strengthened through CP Blessing (AS Well as Healing received) and any set or trait that increases healing done, it makes a skill with equal healing and penetration bonus no matter if run by a Stamina toon or Magicka toon. By also making the morph give back both stamina and magicka regeneration it further boosts its viablitly in group play and helps overall DPS.

    Now the Value doesn’t have to be exactly what Alkosh gives, it can be a little less or a little more, that isn’t the point. WHAT is the point, is that now you have a GROUP BUFF ONLY ASCERTAINABLE by someone running a RESTORATION STAVE, and thus to keep from an overall group loss of a DD back baring a resto stave, leads to a dedicated healer synergy dynamic in group play.

    From all angles I can’t find a flaw in the design of doing this as it helps all ROLES involved without offering MORE than what can currently be attained on live.

    And yes, it means Alkosh needs to be retooled, which I went through in the original post and won’t go into again here.

    As for my other changes. Healing sets now have access to Major Courage, which ups the importance of the role as the set is only viable on a Magicka Healers build for group play without giving a DPS loss. Minor Courage is not yet in the game but was eluded to possibly being brought in at a later date.

    I did that here in my design as making BOTH MINOR AND MAJOR Courage a Healing role EXCLUSIVE. Thus, furthering the importance in OVERALL DPS in the group. By Attaching it to BLESSING OF RESTORATION it too makes a once useless morph (Joked about in Class Meeting as people don’t even know what it’s called because no-one even looks at it.) into a truly viable option.

    Since Minor Berserks 8% damage increase is a much larger DPS boost than the 129 Spell/Weapon Damage boost I gave Minor Courage, you would think that it doesn’t yet make the skill viable. HOWEVER, with a longer uptime of 15 sec, on a scale with a larger AOE when cast, the Minor Courage is likely to have an overall higher uptime versus the Minor Berserk morph and affect more teammates easier. Also since Minor Berserk is useless on Wardens and Nightblades, it makes a morph that will boost ALL PLAYERS AND CLASSES in ALL ROLES, versus those that don’t have access to Minor Berserk. Also, it Makes Slimeclaw a more viable set for NON-Warden and Nightblade builds. As other classes can now wear the set, gaining Minor Berserk at all times, and then receive Minor Courage on-top as a Nightblade and Warden would for even more DPS. As such the breakdown makes the 2 morphs honestly go head to head. Keep the status quo of current builds and make-up. Or change builds and make-up and run the other morph.

    As for the other changes (which Im not going to go through all over again here but leave in the original post), I am happy to touch on individually if users have questions or remarks towards them.

    In the end, however, with my changes, a Healer would now be viable in bringing, Penetration, Minor Courage, Minor Beserk, Major Maim, Minor Maim, and Minor Defile to group content on-top of their heals and depending on what morphs are chosen. This bolsters the role considerably and makes them a VITAL part of any team make-up, and would keep the “We can do it better without them” at bay. Because, yes you may be able to complete content without them, BUT NOT BETTER. For END-GAME results and smoothest play, a HEALER would become REQUIRED. Especially if it is on-top the other changes suggested.

    None of my recommendations will fix the Healer problem on its own because it is more complex than most give it credit for. However, when combined together and implemented in holistically, with changes here and there as ZOS and others crunch numbers and see how it pans out, would GREATLY enhance the Healer in their role while making them of more importance.
  • Soundinfinite
    Soundinfinite
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    AS for the Trial Leader-board change, I truly have thought of this for almost over a year. I brought it up here, and touched on it, but since this was a HEALER change focused thread, I didn't delve any deeper into it. However, the positive responses and ideas that this has brought up by posters, is exciting, and I see an issue that many others have thought about, or at least are NOW thinking about.
  • karekiz
    karekiz
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    Here is the issue in general to me <My thoughts and from a 4 man dungeon point of view!!!>:

    Tanks and DPS have too much self sustain with little to no penalty. Yup. My Pet sorc can not only burst heal as effective as a healer, it can put out a punch since its a fully geared DPS. Tank need resources? Simply slot in orbs.

    Tanks have access to skills like Green Dragon blood <Huge self burst heal> and igneous shield <tank carried skill> with major mending ta boot.

    Here is a question:
    If your DPS can heal each other with minimal penalty to their damage.
    If your tank can heal himself and others with minimal penalty to their tanking.

    Then why do you need a role that its sole ability is to heal and buff? Why not just take a DPS and be done with it. Its just far more effective. There are PLENTY of non one shot damage placed on players. Its simply not true that *all* damage is one shot.

    Example: Scalecaller <Non HM> final enounter
    One shot non recoverable damage - Poison spray <You get hit you die, nothing you can do>

    100% DPS Damage:
    Ice phase DoT tick
    Zaan's Flame link <Assuming it is placed on a tank>

    Potential damage
    Flame wave

    Tank Damage
    Natural damage/special attack from mob.
    Zaan flame link <Placed on DPS and you go to block>

    This can be completely healed by a DPS and a tank with no help from a restro staff at all. There is no need for one. Any damage taken during ice phase or flame link one sorc matriarch pet can easily just heal. Even if you have no shields you could just shrug it off and vigour back. Any and ALL non fatal damage a DPS can take care of.

    Healer vs DPS heal skill <base numbers based on what is listed on skill>

    Templar <SPC / Worm / Earthgore> - CP invested into healing
    Breath of Life - 3.7K mana cost
    Heals an ally in front for 9.1K - Heals one other for 3K

    My DPS pet sorc <Necro / Destro mastery / Illambris> - CP invested into DPS
    Twilight Matriarch - 3K mana cost
    Heal the pet and up to two friendly targets for 10.7K health

    The matriarch more than makes up for any lack of healer or restro staff in party.

    *Edit: Having said all that - healers still have a place. Its silly to think they are useless. Most random pugs wouldn't last without a healer period. Most random pugs in bloodroot will flat out ignore stranglers untill asked to kill them and stand and try to "outheal/burn" through the poison placed by them. It generally doesn't end well.
    Edited by karekiz on October 1, 2018 4:12PM
  • Soundinfinite
    Soundinfinite
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    @mague

    Hello there, I just wanted to touch on your overland worries. I understand that whenever the word "Nerf" is used everyone's throat tightens and their stomach being to boil, as overdone Nerfs are a problem in balancing.

    However, rest assured, for overland content a 20% nerf to class healing would not hinder a self-sustaining Overland player.

    1) Overland creatures have very low resistance thresholds, and relatively minor health. As such, many players can 1-shot to maybe 2-shot all overland creatures. The problem of course is delves, public dungeons, and world bosses as posing any sort of viable threat.

    In the the case of world bosses, they are not intended to be soloed, though most eventually get to the point where they can do this, and this is in large part to the heals available to them or in magicka's case shields. This is the very problem ZOS is trying to get to the heart of. Players being able to complete group content either alone or without a healer, as such world bosses are not a viable argument to not NERF heals but actually a support to nerf them.

    Public Dungeons are also intended to be group content, in that you run it with the people just randomly available there while your in them. However even with a 20% nerf, most players will still be able to perform this content with ease even solo, becuase unlike Grouped dungeons, the foes ascertain Overlands low resistance thresholds and minor health. While all are not created equal and the Group Event normally a bit of a solo challenge for non-end game players, these again are not solo intended.

    Delves, though may be problematic at very low levels, but this is normally due to not having appropriate passives, skills, gear, and any heals or only 1 heal available for use. This is why ZOS buffs leveling characters inherently. For fully developed (NOT END GAME JUST FULLY LEVELED) players, Delves pose no real threat at all with even the delve bosses being able to be burned in less than one rotation of skills.

    In truth, a large part of the community keep asking for Overworld to be more challenging, or have an option of changing the difficulty like one can for Normal and Vet dungeons. A large part of this comes from how powerful PVE shields and heals are. They can withstand substantially more damage while easily taking down an opponent.

    2) Vigor remains untouched. I bring this up for the simple fact as this is the ONLY heal that many stamina characters have. Since Vigor is in the Alliance War Skill line it is safe from nerfing. This will probably actually be a point of contention for many as Vigor is a key problem in Healers not being needed for much group content. 4 Stamina characters, one an off-tank or tank, all running Vigor can effectively move through the large majority of content due to the constant up-time of HOT while self healing.

    Why I didn;t touch this skill. Because, as I have stated for some its the only Heal they have available and such its not balanced to hurt their single healing skill. Also, in PVP Vigor isn't overpowered but simply solid. This to me makes sense as it is from a PVP skill line and thus created and balanced for use in a PVP environment where Battles Spirit nerfs healing 50%. Thus it is effective and strong but not overpowered in that environment. In PVE, healing is meant to be performed by a healer and thus the problem arises, as Vigor becomes vastly stronger and reaches OP values in the PVE world. However, this is something that the Developers have to address with the skill itself, and not with the Healing balance I am trying to pursue. As such I left Vigor alone.

    3) The burst heals from self-healing skill lines are extremely potent. Templer with BOL, Warden with Mushrooms, Healing Seeds, and LIving Trellace (All instant cast morph-able and burst heals), Dragonknight Dragonblood, and Sorcerers Matriarch heal for double digit heals even when not Critical Healing. Only the Nightblade suffers from not having a super-large burst heal available to them or a Sorcerer if they choose to actually challenge themselves and not make a PET BUILD. However both still have access to heal while damaging. With the Nightblade having multiple options of getting health back.

    These can sustain a 20% nerf and all be severely powerful in OVerland content, so much so, that most players will not even notice the difference. It is only in Group Dungeon, Vet, and Trials where players are going to feel the loss of healing. This further supports this nerf, as Overworld-ing will still be fully sustainable while the content that is supposed to be carried by Healer has greater use for them.

    4) If even after all of this, if a player is still having difficulties soloing alone Overland content, there is the CP system. AS stated in the post the 20% nerf can be completely countered by placing 56 CP in Blessed. Thus moving your healing to the same level it is at now. THough you will currently suffer a damage out-put loss, you will have the comfort of having stronger heals.

    All is a trade-off
  • karekiz
    karekiz
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    However, rest assured, for overland content a 20% nerf to class healing would not hinder a self-sustaining Overland player.

    TBH a direct nerf to skills isn't really needed in that way.

    They just need to introduce a stat that effects heals from various skills. While you can summon or use heals they perform very poorly without this stat point. It would be placed on armor that isn't directly for DPS <Vanus for example, and other Heal based gear sets>.

    This would not nerf those who choose to use their class defining heal skills, while nerfing those who go full DPS glass cannon. It would push pet sorcs like me out of Matriarch as its heal would have little to no effect and tormentor would be a more viable option <still needs to be buffed though>. All restro staff heals would be effected by this stat.

    Impen would probably be altered to have this stat as well to keep self heals up for PvP <***I do not PvP****>. This way players in PvP could use things like Vigour w/o the same penalty as PvE.
  • Cronopoly
    Cronopoly
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    In every other MMO games healer/support classes also were the Buffing classes. I personally liked other MMO buffs provided to the group which were tied to the Healer/Support person being ALIVE in content. If the Healer died you lost your provided buffs for the group...STR/DEX/HP's etc.

    ZOS has gone another way with the major/minor system where Healers/Support functions are not necessarily tied to said buffs which are timed and falloff. It's different. Is it causing more issues than solving...long term??
  • Donny_Vito
    Donny_Vito
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    Nicko_Lps wrote: »

    Nerf vigor stacking groups, delete earthgore.


    Shield nerf was the classy excuse that devs came up with to nerf sorcs and please forum whining warriors.


    Mention something like that on the PvP forums and you'll have a barrage of comments coming your way. Unfortunately, PvP has to be a significant concern when they make any type of healing changes, and it's very challenging to make useful changes that will affect PvE healers while also making sure such changes don't completely overpower certain builds in PvP. It's a fine balance that's hard to meet.
  • db0ssman
    db0ssman
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    As someone who has mained a NB healer (reaper's mark -major fracture/breach & summon shade - minor) for three years, let me just warn you about putting your eggs in the single point penetration basket. TBH relying on the healer for penetration is either worthless (like in normal dungeons) or a sign that a group won't be able to finish the content (like in vet dlc dungeons). There really is only a very small window of vet dungeons where a group can use the help with boss damage, but struggle through mob dps and be fine (I guess if you end up with a PUG of 3 level 10's they can use pen help, but they probably need a lot more help than that).

    The main issue in normal dungeons is that the tank is probably using the puncture morph that already grants major fracture/pierce armor and/or the dps are high enough level that they are above the cap for penetration anyway. If the meta shifted for lower penetration to try and have more straight dps because the healer can add pen like the suggestion you made, you'd end up with groups that couldn't clear adds since they'd have basically no penetration.

    I guess in the strictest sense, this could work, but you'd probably have to also reduce the pen difference between nm and vet, lower overall pen availability, lower enemy health for mobs... basically rebalance the whole game a lot.
    Starfire Protocol lvl 50 NB Redmage healer - Main + Master Crafter
    Gives Good Heed lvl 50 Warden Super Buff Healer
    Crafty Smyth lvl 50 Stamblade Poison Assassin - Farmer
    Everyon's Pal Adin lvl 44 Templar Splash Healer
    Stands Against Danger lvl 16 DK Tank -ex mule
    Matriarch Tamer lvl 18 Baby Sorc Healer
  • Soundinfinite
    Soundinfinite
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    @db0ssman

    Hello, and thank you for joining the discussion!

    I am not exactly sure what your post is stating and/or implying. I feel that either I simply don't understand what you are trying to state, OR we have gotten our wires crossed and there is a misunderstanding in what I have tried to state.

    To try and possibly reach and understanding I am going to give a few things here as a response to your comment.

    Penetration_Table_1.png

    This table currently shows how I am interpreting the Penetration of the game. As seen neither Light, Medium, Heavy armor can reach 100% Penetration without having specific Armor Sets, Class Skills, or Weapon Skills slotted. Even then only Magicka can reach this cap.

    This also takes into consideration 100 CP into Weapon or Spell Penetration, which is not truly conceivable on a VIABLE build. And thus these numbers actually favor a lower Penetration than what most Players face.

    This is why the game's META has come to favor the Tank ALSO wearing Alkosh in order to reach a teams Penetration Goals.

    With the Alkosh set in play, and CP put into a reasonable allocation the table changes to this.

    Penetration_Table_2.png

    As you can see now Light Armor as now met the Spell Penetration cap; However Stamina still has a bit of a ways to go.

    Now you can add in a Templar running the Skill Power of the Light and adding an additional 1320 Spell and Physical Penetration. But that requires a specific class and specific skill in use. Since this is so situational I do not include this in the calculations. However, if you have a specific group you run with, and it includes a Templar with this skill, then by all means it is deductible as well.

    What I am championing is to remove Alkosh's penetration and instead give it to the Healer in its Siphon skill line. Alkosh would then be reworked as a STAMINA only DPS set that would provide a Weapon Damage and Crit proc damage on its last 5th trait as well as give a value number in Physical Penetration only. Thus it no longer would be used as a Tanking Set, Would split the penetration level between the TANK AND HEALER instead of being the tanks alone, and would then provide a way for Stamina DPS to reach the penetration cap as its Magicka counterpart.

    As such the table NOW changes to look like this.

    Penetration_Table_3.png

    As you can see, the penetration of Magicka and Stamina is equaled, and the HEALER AND THE TANK TOGETHER reach the teams goals of reaching the Penetration Cap.

    I am in no way trying to change the base game's design, or ask for Penetration levels to be lowered, or as you say "put my eggs all in one basket." I am actually taking the Penetration Eggs and moving them to multiple ROLES of play. AS now the TANK is NOT responsible for the entire groups penetration de-buff. It is split between the Healer and Tank and using the current live Penetration caps. Alkosh would move into an elective set for a Stamina Damage Dealer to wear and provide the Stamina half of a group with further penetration. This would be purely elective in a teams make-up as they could forgo this set and still reach the same levels of penetration that are now on live.
  • ruikkarikun
    ruikkarikun
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    Did you know that count of dd in any mmo always more then heal and tank? Good luck trying to solve this problem.
  • idk
    idk
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    A few responses have simply stated “Stop the one-shots” meaning healers will suddenly be viable with this mechanic gone. It is simply not true. The Healer problem stems from multiple issues and taking out one shots will not solve it, and will, in all likelihood, make healers even less needed

    Having the one shots does not make the healer more needed unless you are referring to the need for someone to rez. Turning it into significant damage vs a one shot would have a bigger effect.

    From the start I found healing in this game fundamentally simple as the class rep pointed out above. Over time it did become more complex with more buffs and debuffs and improved.

    However, considering the devs gave us all the agility to self sustain a big and purposely blurred the lines of the trinity outside of the most challenging content, I would not expect a healer to be required by skilled players in all content.
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